Post: #1426

VVVV, I find the AA insistence on always declaring "I am an alcoholic" or "I am still an alcoholic" to be of no use, and often damaging. I don't believe it really helps anyone, except maybe in the very early stages when a drunk refuses to admit that there is any problem at all.

I strongly dislike the AA addiction to the drama of "alcoholism", its hunger for the seemingly endless cycle of "sobriety" and "falling off", always culminating in the same melodramatic statement of one's immutable essence as an "alcoholic". It's a distasteful cycle, and I find it unmanly, among other things. Too much bad coffee has been consumed by too many unhealthy-looking dudes in too many church basements. And it's not really necessary.

The thing to do with an "inner voice" is simply to acknowledge it, and dismiss it. There is no need to honor it with a name, let alone to elevate it to the expression of one's unchanging nature as an "alcoholic". You've made a decision to stop drinking, and now it's entirely up to you to stick to it. No "inner voice" can pour a drink down your throat; only you can do that. It's really as simple as that. The plain truth may not provide all the satisfactions of psychological melodrama, but those satisfactions are of very little value to a man trying to live a good and enjoyable life. It's best to just let them go.

Post: #1427

^^^^

Good post LOZ. Even though looking back at my post, it might sound like I'm an AAer, I actually don't find their meetings or philosophy that helpful for me.

I hear you on the church basement unhealthy guy image. When I went to AA meetings and had to deal with people chugging caffeine and chain smoking while talking about being "sober" I was often like WTF. I don't want what these guys have. I want and deserve better.

I was just disturbed by the thought I had about getting off Antabuse and relapsing. I figured that posting about it would be good for me. It scared me that even now, after all this time, after all the consequences I have suffered from alcohol use, I still in some way want to see if maybe this time I can just drink moderately. I think in part I get these thoughts when I read RVF stories from guys like LINUX or even NASA Test Pilot, where drinking is tightly woven into a mix of adventure, good times and satisfying bangs, and I look up to them/picture myself being like them. Maybe that's a sign of me needing to man up a bit and not give a fuck what other guys are doing and not compete with them directly. Just run my own race and do what is good for me.

I'm not going to drink today and I'm not going to drink tomorrow. I woke up a half hour before sunrise, went to the gym, had a great workout, and then cooked my breakfast of 5 organic eggs, quinoa, and a fresh salad with ingredients from a local market.

I'm glowing with good energy now.

I think that's the key for me. Feeling good. Willpower aside, mental masturbation aside, in the end I want to feel good.

And if I don't get that good feeling naturally, it is only a matter of time before I seek it artificially. Or at least that has been the way I have made choices for the past 17 years.

I recently went about 7 months without real exercise due to a back injury, and I also let my nutrition slide, and I think that is what lowered my resolution a bit and put me in a danger zone in terms of bad decision making.

Now I am back on track. I am two weeks into a new exercise program with two different personal trainers (one for regular traditional training, one for electromuscular stimulation), where I train 5 days a week and have told them to push me as hard as possible without injuring me.

In two months I think my body will be at the point where I can handle kite surfing lessons. I'm also thinking about learning guitar.

Your post has made me think a lot. Labels are not helpful. I am not an animal. "Alcoholism" is not like having cancer. I've made a decision, the ball is in my court. And if I've gone this far, I can keep on going further.

Post: #1428

The 15th was four years for me. I am committing to a fifth year starting on the 15th. I went back and read through the beginning post and thanks again LOZ for starting this.

Congrats on your 9 years!

I hope to contribute more as time permits. I have had similar thoughts about the AA paradigm of stating you are an Alcoholic and powerless over alcohol to be self defeating. I find it similar to a lot of religious organizations which first force you to believe one thing that is not true, in this case that you are powerless over alcohol, which is clearly not the case for many people that could benefit from sobriety, and then once they have you believing one thing that is clearly not true, they lump a bunch of other unexamined dogma on top of it.

I have actually found a lot of good discussions on sobriety in Seneca which is more relevant. I will try to post some.

Thanks
G

(02-12-2016 09:28 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  9 years for me today, and extending for year number 10.

Post: #1429

(02-16-2016 05:11 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  ^^^^

Good post LOZ. Even though looking back at my post, it might sound like I'm an AAer, I actually don't find their meetings or philosophy that helpful for me.

I hear you on the church basement unhealthy guy image. When I went to AA meetings and had to deal with people chugging caffeine and chain smoking while talking about being "sober" I was often like WTF. I don't want what these guys have. I want and deserve better.

Your post has made me think a lot. Labels are not helpful. I am not an animal. "Alcoholism" is not like having cancer. I've made a decision, the ball is in my court. And if I've gone this far, I can keep on going further.

Cancer is not a good metaphor for alcohol abuse. However, there is some interesting neuroscience on the brain changes caused by chronic alcohol consumption. This book does some dance to try and tie it to AA but the hard science is pretty solid.

http://www.amazon.com/Hijacking-Brain-Ad...463444842/

So, I don't know what metaphor best describes chronic alcohol use.

Post: #1430

gmoneysauce, welcome back aboard for year 5 as of February 15, 2016 and I look forward to your posts here as time goes on.

Post: #1431

(02-14-2016 10:43 AM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  VVVV, I find the AA insistence on always declaring "I am an alcoholic" or "I am still an alcoholic" to be of no use, and often damaging.

Totally agree with this. No need to call yourself an alcoholic after you quit drinking. Alcies are those who regularly drink and can't quit.

Another thing I can't agree with AA is their honesty policy, like being honest about everything. Sometimes, it's wiser to conceal certain things.

Like in the film "Smashed," a female teacher, who had a drinking problem and attended AA, lost her job after she admitted she was drunk at work.
It would be much wiser to lie and stick to the initial story that she was sick as a result of pregnancy.

Post: #1432

Fuck; I went off for the last 3 weekends. Got some bad news about stuff and started drinking a little bit. Kept it from negatively affecting my school life this time though although my sleep cycle got fucked. I don't know where else to post this next bit but I am never going to do Molly or Coke again. For Alcohol I'm not drinking again till August 1st; when I will reassess.There's no reason for any of you guys to believe I can pull it off but I know I can and I will. The buck stops here. This may seem hastily done or planned but I've been thinking about all of this recently for a while now and this is the step for me.
Wednesday February 17th 2016

Post: #1433

Agreed. My life and my identity is not defined by alcoholism, whatever that exactly is. It is possible for scientists to breed mice with a huge propensity to alcoholism, so there is a genetic component to addiction tendencies.

I do not understand why I was so self destructive and made the choices I did. Sitting here in my living room, looking out the window at a sunny day in Seville and feeling good about life, it does not make sense, it's not what I want. In the end I don't think it really matters. Dwelling on the past is not going to help me in the present/future. I've concluded that being afraid, and labeling myself an alcoholic, and all of that crap/mental gymnastics, is only going to lead to me relapsing, since it takes power away from me.

I have choices. As Oz(wish I could rep him again) stated, no one is going to force me to drink. Do I want to drink? Do I want to have that life again? No. So I'm not going to do it, no matter what.

There are some limits to the utility of the tough love/do it all on your own approach.

I think a heavy drinker needs medical detox the first week, and some kind of special help for the post acute withdrawal phase for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, so they can get healthy habits nailed down and let their body/mind fully clear, but after that point, it is up to the individual to make a decision about how they want to live their lives, and be accountable to themselves.

Post: #1434

(02-17-2016 04:49 AM)SexualHarrasmentPanda Wrote:  Fuck; I went off for the last 3 weekends. Got some bad news about stuff and started drinking a little bit. Kept it from negatively affecting my school life this time though although my sleep cycle got fucked. I don't know where else to post this next bit but I am never going to do Molly or Coke again. For Alcohol I'm not drinking again till August 1st; when I will reassess.There's no reason for any of you guys to believe I can pull it off but I know I can and I will. The buck stops here. This may seem hastily done or planned but I've been thinking about all of this recently for a while now and this is the step for me.
Wednesday February 17th 2016

Why August 1st?

Hop on the wagon for a year. I can promise you that when you post here on February 17th, 2017, you will have zero regrets.

I don't think there has been a single 1 year wagon member who at the end of it posted fuck this shit, man do I wish I had been drinking, my life sucks now.

Post: #1435

(02-17-2016 04:57 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  Why August 1st?

Hop on the wagon for a year. I can promise you that when you post here on February 17th, 2017, you will have zero regrets.

I don't think there has been a single 1 year wagon member who at the end of it posted fuck this shit, man do I wish I had been drinking, my life sucks now.

I didn't want to make a statement I didn't believe would be absolutely beneficial for me. I'd be moving into the best party location on campus on August 1st so I don't know if it would be advisable for me to not drink while at such a great spot for throwing parties and then pulling chicks. It might be or it might not; I just didn't think I should commit to that.

Post: #1436

While I go back and forth on this sometimes, romanticize shit, and occasionally have the thought that in certain situations drinking/using drugs would help with bangs, this isn't really true. You can rack up tons of notches while sober. Sex is actually better once you get used to it. Your game is tighter. And as long as you don't make a big deal of your sobriety and sound preachy, no one will give a shit. I don't get into it. If someone asks, I just say I don't drink or I don't like drinking, and then change the topic. No one cares.

Look at what you wrote. What you want is to party and pull chicks, not to be drunk or coked up or rolling. The two are NOT inevitably linked. Focus on enjoying music, dancing, and on having tight game. This is something I have to remind myself of.

Post: #1437

(02-17-2016 05:13 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  While I go back and forth on this sometimes, romanticize shit, and occasionally have the thought that in certain situations drinking/using drugs would help with bangs, this isn't really true. You can rack up tons of notches while sober. Sex is actually better once you get used to it. Your game is tighter. And as long as you don't make a big deal of your sobriety and sound preachy, no one will give a shit. I don't get into it. If someone asks, I just say I don't drink or I don't like drinking, and then change the topic. No one cares.

Look at what you wrote. What you want is to party and pull chicks, not to be drunk or coked up or rolling. The two are NOT inevitably linked. Focus on enjoying music, dancing, and on having tight game. This is something I have to remind myself of.

I will focus on music dance and tight game.This I swear

I've been fucking up too much when I drink.
I only drink when I go out.So I stopped last week.it was a bit like when Tom Hanks gets the silence and ringing in he's ears in Saving private Ryan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqSg7WO4tT4

I could see everything going on around me.Dudes going in for the pick up getting shot down by the girls.All my mates were drinking.I do most of the approaching,my mates hang back or wait to get approached.
Anyway so I didn't drink ,I was in my head.My one friend sees some girl he knew so he went to talk to her.She had 2 friends ,I'm standing there like a dick..and suddenly I come back to reality and push forward.Both were married but that hasn't stopped me in the past.This time it did.

I did about 9 approaches 7 solo including 2 street and 1 McDonalds and 4 in another bar by myself.No closes but more because I wasn't use to this state of mine.And I really enjoyed it.It felt more empowering

So more infield sober for me.I'm getting pissed with myself because I'm not following up on IOIs sober and that shit is fucking up my game.I'm very time poor and I just realized that drinking is fucking that up more.I was asleep by 12.30am

Drinking is costing me too much and it's true it's a crutch.I walked into a couple bars the bar staff and owners know me and offer me shots straight away, as happened that night.I built alot of friendships on booze.I had nights were basically I never paid for a drink..That sounds good and I'm not complaining but the toll on my body and sleep is high.Sleep deprivation is killing me and I don't work 9 to 5.

All in all I aim not to drink until late April.But the way I'm feeling and what I'm seeing, I don't think I want to get drunk again.I always feel like I have to decompress with a drink before pick up.If I'm solo I will stop in a bar and 2 or 3 vodkas before late daygaming...just on auto pilot.My goal is to not do that it's been retarding my growth in regards to cold approach.I know I can be better.

I usually go out on Wednesday night (it's the night where I hardly pay as I know the owners of the bar) and I'm fucked up on thursday.This time I just went to the gym and I'll try some daygame Thursday.

This Brazilian waitress told me on New years eve she didn't have a man and that she liked me because I had control,every second drink was a water...What she didn't know was I started drinking at about 1 pm at Bondi beach and by the time I got to her bar at 6pm I was almost fucked up.Come midnight I was a wreck..I missed out on a beautiful 22 year old backpacker from Brazil that wanted me...It started me thinking how many other times I fucked up because I went over the edge...and the amount is criminal .3 on NYE alone..2 in their 20s and 1 32 year old...
I can't have just 1 or 2 drinks and that's the problem.

Post: #1438

(02-17-2016 05:13 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  Look at what you wrote. What you want is to party and pull chicks, not to be drunk or coked up or rolling. The two are NOT inevitably linked. Focus on enjoying music, dancing, and on having tight game. This is something I have to remind myself of.

You're helping me a lot by making me evaluate it again; thanks a bunch for that. The issue with drugs was that I was flame while spitting game on molly or coke and nobody even knew or assumed I was sober. But at the end of the day I know I can pull while sober and as you're reminding me nobody has ever said "I'm pissed I didn't drink last year." Alright; one year. February 17th 2016

Post: #1439

SHP, just to confirm, are you in for a full year as of February 17, 2016?

Post: #1440

(02-17-2016 09:08 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  SHP, just to confirm, are you in for a full year as of February 17, 2016?

Abso-fucking-lutely

Post: #1441

(02-17-2016 10:08 PM)SexualHarrasmentPanda Wrote:  

(02-17-2016 09:08 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  SHP, just to confirm, are you in for a full year as of February 17, 2016?

Abso-fucking-lutely

Alright. Welcome aboard as of February 17, 2016 and hope to hear more from you here as time goes on.

Post: #1442

My roommate tried to call me out for saying I wasn't drinking for a while. Claimed that because I drank last weekend and that I had previously drank 3 weeks ago despite wanting to stay sober at the beginning of the semester made my newfound claims to sobriety bullshit. I've literally met this guy a couple weeks ago and only reason I'm living with him is because one of my best friends happened to get randomly assigned to live with him and a couple of his buddies at the beginning of the year and when an opening popped up at my buddy's place I jumped at it because of a negative living situation I was entrenched in last time. So he doesn't even know me well at all. I guess it's something I should expect for the first week or two when someone asks me to have a drink and I respond with I'm staying sober for a while when they had previously drank with me. I stated that I was trying to become a better person and that I had to start somewhere. Not sure why I'm rambling on about something like this but I guess it just irked me the wrong way and needed someplace to vent.

Post: #1443

(02-20-2016 08:36 PM)SexualHarrasmentPanda Wrote:  My roommate tried to call me out for saying I wasn't drinking for a while. Claimed that because I drank last weekend and that I had previously drank 3 weeks ago despite wanting to stay sober at the beginning of the semester made my newfound claims to sobriety bullshit. I've literally met this guy a couple weeks ago and only reason I'm living with him is because one of my best friends happened to get randomly assigned to live with him and a couple of his buddies at the beginning of the year and when an opening popped up at my buddy's place I jumped at it because of a negative living situation I was entrenched in last time. So he doesn't even know me well at all. I guess it's something I should expect for the first week or two when someone asks me to have a drink and I respond with I'm staying sober for a while when they had previously drank with me. I stated that I was trying to become a better person and that I had to start somewhere. Not sure why I'm rambling on about something like this but I guess it just irked me the wrong way and needed someplace to vent.

Here's the thing, you don't need anyone else's validation/approval/permission to do what you have decided. It's your choice, and that's that.

You don't even need to tell them you are staying sober for a while, like it's some big thing you need to announce. Just politely decline, change the subject, don't make a big deal out of it. If someone presses you, you can just say you haven't had much fun drinking lately, and don't feel like it right now. Again, change the subject, move on.

It won't be interesting to people unless you make a big deal out of it and they in turn feel uncomfortable. And pretty soon, people will just stop asking you about it. And chances are, people aren't thinking about you and what you do nearly as much as you think. 99% of the time, people are locked inside their own world thinking about their own drama, not yours.

Post: #1444

Hi guys, I'd like to throw my $0.02 on this.

I didn't drink for about two years, and here's all I did: I bought and read "The Easy Way to Stop Drinking" by the late, great Allen Carr. That's it. I read it, put the book down, and I didn't touch the stuff for years.

Actually, during those two years I had a total of maybe the equivalent of five, ten shots? Always at a birthday or somewhere I was essentially forced to drink. And here is the key word... "forced." This means I had ZERO desire.

LOZ, think you could benefit from the book as well. I only looked at the last two pages of the thread, but I saw you've "counted" your time away from booze, plus the tone seems to be one of sympathy with the other posters and encouraging a "one year off the wagon" instead of an attitude of shock that they could be touching it at all, which says to me that there's a difference in how we look at it. Not judging you and I applaud your encouragement and support of everyone, just a friendly suggestion if this rings true for you at all.

Having said this, after I moved to Singapore I started drinking again almost immediately, and drinking hard. Such a boring, sterile place... the pressure to drink there is just unbelievable, not from others but because there is so little to do other than drink, and I fell into it right away. I willfully poisoned myself daily, yes, and it became part of my life again. You can read some of my thoughts about Singapore here.

Anyway, Allen Carr's book is essentially about the nature of a drug, how you're running faster and faster to stay in the same place (withdrawal, then needing the drug just to feel "normal" again, then withdrawal, then even more). You get to see alcohol for what it is, a drug, and poison, and you realize that drinking it is always a net negative. Once this click takes place, you wouldn't put it in your body even if someone paid you. And once you have no desire to drink, all this nonsense about "it was so tough" or AA meetings just goes right out the window.

All you hear about glasses of wine being good for you is crap, the same health benefits are conferred by grapes IIRC. And don't even get me started on the "high quality" alcohol stuff, wine, whiskey, you name it, there might be a difference, but it's all poison. Even when I was drinking, when someone would deliberate over different wines at high-end spots I had to suppress a smile, then I'd watch everyone pretend they could tell something "good" from "bad." See here for a laugh.

I left Singapore months ago and will be moving elsewhere soon. I just got back from Carnival in Brazil which was tons of fun but an absolute, 24/7 shitshow and now I'm sick. Haven't had booze in a week and I found myself Googling "limit alcohol roosh" since I think now is as good a time as any to stop, and was curious whether there was something on the forum about it. I'll probably find/reread that book just cuz it's been a while, then get on with my highly-productive, pre-Singapore life without booze.

Guys, it really is that easy. There is ZERO benefit to your life, only negatives. Read the book, recognize alcohol for what it is, and you will never have the desire to touch the crap again.

Post: #1445

Lian,

(02-22-2016 07:42 PM)Lian Wrote:  Guys, it really is that easy. There is ZERO benefit to your life, only negatives. Read the book, recognize alcohol for what it is, and I promise you, you will never have the desire to touch the crap again. The thought will disgust you.

(02-22-2016 07:42 PM)Lian Wrote:  Having said this, after I moved to Singapore I started drinking again almost immediately, and drinking hard.

Seems like there is a contradiction there. You promise that all someone needs to do is "read the book", and he would never have the desire "to touch the crap again". Yet here you are, having read the book, and you've still gone on to drink "hard" in Singapore after 2 years "off". Or, well, almost off, there were those occasions when you were "forced" so they don't count.

(02-22-2016 07:42 PM)Lian Wrote:  That's it. I read it, put the book down, and I didn't touch the stuff for years.

Actually, during those two years I had a total of maybe the equivalent of five, ten shots? Always at a birthday or somewhere I was essentially forced to drink

Here is the deal.

First, while I've never read the Carr book, I disagree with the idea the all you need to do is just to convince yourself that alcohol is "poison", that there are no positives and only negatives, and that this should be enough to convince one to never touch the stuff. In fact, I find that idea ludicrous, to be honest.

For guys who are true moderate drinkers -- and there are plenty of them in the world, as well as on the forum, just not in this thread -- alcohol is not a poison; it is a superb and civilized pleasure, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If a man likes to have a glass of Merlot with his dinner, or take down a couple of beers while watching the ballgame, the idea that he is doing nothing but "poisoning" himself is an absurd lie. I don't go around trying to convince normal people who enjoy a few drinks now and then to become teetotalers. That was never the purpose of this thread, and it won't be its purpose as long I'm around.

Further, even hard drinking has its place in a man's life; but its best and truest expressions come during a man's youth, up to about the mid to late twenties. The ecstasies of hard drinking are strong and real, and I have no wish to lie about them or deny them. I've had great and memorable times drinking hard when I was a young man, and I would never want those times taken away from me. Nor do I want to deny them to other young guys -- that is why I tend to discourage really young dudes who think they want to hop on the wagon, and ask them twice and thrice if they are sure they really need it. For the most part, they do not.

Instead, this thread is for men who have been drinking hard enough for long enough that a complete and sustained break from the sauce is the best possible thing for them. It is needed to undo the obvious damage that years of hard drinking do to the body, as well as the less obvious but equally important damage that they do to the spirit and heart. Only by taking a very complete and sustained break, day after day, week after week, month after month and season after season -- by enduring the seeming boredom, emptiness, and dullness that often accompanies those times -- does a man begin to restore the subtle depths of his spirit and that modest openness to everyday life and its great charms that is taken away and diminished by the reliance on the increasingly rote and sleazy ceremonies of intensity that drinking turns to for those who have gone to the well a too often.

1 year is a very good minimal period for such a break. For some men a one year wagon may be enough; for others, there may be very good reasons to extend it for additional years; and for others yet, it should be extended year after year. But the end of each wagon year is an excellent time to take stock and reevaluate, and to make that decision -- however obvious it may be one way or another.

The wagon means a complete break: not one drink, for any reason -- good bad or indifferent -- at any time, 24/7/365. The idea that someone can "force" you to drink is nonsense, no one can force you to do anything unless they physically hold you down and pour a drink down your throat. It is always up to you.

If you read through more than a couple of pages of this thread, you will see that it has changed the lives of many men for the better -- probably more than we can know, if you count the many lurkers. I feel that it's a particularly great thread, in part, because it is not built on the kinds of cant, fraudulent rhetoric, and pseudo-religious or pseudo-scientific chatter that too often accompanies such endeavors and makes them insufferable to intelligent and straight-thinking men. To the extent that it depends on me, it will stay that way.

Post: #1446

LOZ, no offense was meant to you or anyone, at all, my post was intended to help and convey my personal experience. The tone of my post was intentionally very straightforward. I think it's good for people to see a different kind of attitude towards not drinking, one that goes completely against the grain, one that stemmed from that book I read years ago, one that shows how easy and simple it really can be. I know when I wasn't drinking I had to fend off so much crap, like "what were you, an alcoholic?" that I desensitized myself to it.

(02-22-2016 09:10 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Seems like there is a contradiction there. You promise that all someone needs to do is "read the book", and he would never have the desire "to touch the crap again". Yet here you are, having read the book, and you've still gone on to drink "hard" in Singapore after 2 years "off". Or, well, almost off, there were those occasions when you were "forced" so they don't count.

Yes, there is, so take my words in that light then. I included the bit about moving to the new environment and drinking again to be completely truthful with my experience. I found myself in way over my head with the move and I did let myself fall into the trap again for several reasons, not to mention an environment where drinking was all but required (and unfortunately I like many am not one of those blessed "moderate" drinkers), and I spent a long time finding a smart way out of it, which I did.

When I say "forced" during the time I wasn't drinking, however, I didn't mean someone had a gun to my head. What I meant is the social pressure was so strong, that despite having zero desire to do so, to not would have singlehandedly caused a marked drop in the social mood of the whole group. Anyone who has been in this situation will know what I mean, and those who have not had alcohol for long periods will surely have encountered such situations. In my experience, friends family etc are fine with someone who is "taking a break" or "off the wagon" etc because they can still sense the underlying desire, and the common bond remains intact. When others can tell you no longer have a desire for it, however... that's when feathers ruffle and others can get really uncomfortable. My point in writing this was to illustrate the difference between the two mindsets, the first not succumbing to temptation, the other in which no temptation is present in the first place, which comes largely from a greater understanding of the drug itself.

(02-22-2016 09:10 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  First, while I've never read the Carr book, I disagree with the idea the all you need to do is just to convince yourself that alcohol is "poison", that there are no positives and only negatives, and that this should be enough to convince one to never touch the stuff. In fact, I find that idea ludicrous, to be honest.

Read it, dude! Then at least you can post your thoughts on it. For me it was one of the most mind blowing paradigm-shift books I had ever come across.

It is not about convincing yourself it's poison (not to mention "convincing yourself" has the connotation of a self delusion), I look at it as "recognizing a fact." I stand by my assertion that there are only negatives, something I felt not only when I wasn't drinking but even after I was again (though I did it anyway). I suppose one could say it's a positive if someone drinks, then doesn't, as that in and of itself is an experience.

(02-22-2016 09:10 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  For guys who are true moderate drinkers -- and there are plenty of them in the world, as well as on the forum, just not in this thread -- alcohol is not a poison; it is a superb and civilized pleasure, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If a man likes to have a glass of Merlot with his dinner, or take down a couple of beers while watching the ballgame, the idea that he is doing nothing but "poisoning" himself is an absurd lie. I don't go around trying to convince normal people who enjoy a few drinks now and then to become teetotalers. That was never the purpose of this thread, and it won't be its purpose as long I'm around.

I'm not judging you or anyone by this, I'm just taking a hard line stance against the thing itself. If someone has a glass of Merlot with his dinner for decades and that's it, well, everyone is built differently, and some people react to drugs differently than others. It does not change the nature of the thing itself, the alcohol.

(02-22-2016 09:10 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Further, even hard drinking has its place in a man's life; but its best and truest expressions come during a man's youth, up to about the mid to late twenties. The ecstasies of hard drinking are strong and real, and I have no wish to lie about them or deny them. I've had great and memorable times drinking hard when I was a young man, and I would never want those times taken away from me. Nor do I want to deny them to other young guys -- that is why I tend to discourage really young dudes who think they want to hop on the wagon, and ask them twice and thrice if they are sure they really need it. For the most part, they do not.

Dude, I've been there alright, I was right up there with the craziest drinkers and partyers in school, have had wild experiences that never would have happened, all of that, believe me. However, I had just as many of them when I wasn't drinking, and they were clear, and in focus, and I did not do some of the very stupid things I've done while drinking. Would I want some of these times taken away from me? To be honest, some of the things, yes, but that's an existential question. Without alcohol, without question, some of the mistakes I made, ranging in severity, would never have happened. On the flip side, some of the great stories might not have happened either (but if so I would have remembered them a lot better!). The point is there's no point in looking back like that, for better or worse what happened happened, it's the future that should concern us.

(02-22-2016 09:10 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Instead, this thread is for men who have been drinking hard enough for long enough that a complete and sustained break from the sauce is the best possible thing for them. It is needed to undo the obvious damage that years of hard drinking do to the body, as well as the less obvious but equally important damage that they do to the spirit and heart. Only by taking a very complete and sustained break, day after day, week after week, month after month and season after season -- by enduring the seeming boredom, emptiness, and dullness that often accompanies those times -- does a man begin to restore the subtle depths of his spirit and that modest openness to everyday life and its great charms that is taken away and diminished by the reliance on the increasingly rote and sleazy ceremonies of intensity that drinking turns to for those who have gone to the well a too often.

I get that, agree, and wholeheartedly empathize, I just take it a little further and have a different view of it which I'm presenting here.

(02-22-2016 09:10 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  1 year is a very good minimal period for such a break. For some men a one year wagon may be enough; for others, there may be very good reasons to extend it for additional years; and for others yet, it should be extended year after year. But the end of each wagon year is an excellent time to take stock and reevaluate, and to make that decision -- however obvious it may be one way or another.

The wagon means a complete break: not one drink, for any reason -- good bad or indifferent -- at any time, 24/7/365. The idea that someone can "force" you to drink is nonsense, no one can force you to do anything unless they physically hold you down and pour a drink down your throat. It is always up to you.

This is the point I'm trying to make, and part of the reason I highlighted my "forced" drinking of 5-10 shots or whatever it was. With someone with the underlying desire present, it's an all-or-nothing, but without desire there is no need for willpower or all-or-nothings. Desire (of lack thereof) precludes willpower, that is one of the main points of the book.

(02-22-2016 09:10 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  If you read through more than a couple of pages of this thread, you will see that it has changed the lives of many men for the better -- probably more than we can know, if you count the many lurkers. I feel that it's a particularly great thread, in part, because it is not built on the kinds of cant, fraudulent rhetoric, and pseudo-religious or pseudo-scientific chatter that too often accompanies such endeavors and makes them insufferable to intelligent and straight-thinking men. To the extent that it depends on me, it will stay that way.

We're on the same team here, dude. I am completely supporting you, the people on this thread, and the lurkers, and it's here I should mention that Allen Carr's work on smoking and drinking has changed the lives of literally millions. I'd like it if everyone on this thread who has experienced any problem stopped drinking entirely, and in the easiest way possible, which is why I posted.

I convey my personal experience and attitude for those interested, and again, I highly recommend anyone looking at this to read the book.

*Note to self: in future, replace long-winded post with equivalent of "I read Allen Carr's book and I immediately stopped drinking for two years cold turkey, and probably will again soon. Highly recommended*

Post: #1447

Lian, like I said I simply don't buy the idea that you can just "lose the desire" and if that happens there is no need to exercise willpower. I think it's something that a man says to convince himself that something difficult is actually easy. The problem with that is that once the way forward becomes troubled for any reason -- for example, the kind of "boring" context that you experienced in Singapore -- you set yourself up for failure. That is why it's best to admit right at the outset that it's not always easy, that willpower is often required (and is always possible to exercise), and that for those who have gone to the well too many times it is, in fact, a matter of all or nothing. The wagon is a challenge for a reason. It's entirely within our power to complete the challenge successfully, but there is no need to pretend that there is a magical way to make it easy and effortless.

I suggest that you read through this entire thread -- every post, over time. There are many informative and valuable posts here, and I believe they will be useful to you in thinking about how to make the right decision and stick to it.

Post: #1448

Lian, I'm not really sure what your point is.

You say Carr's book is great, and that you can basically think yourself out of being an excessive drinker by believing that alcohol is poison, and that you can then become a once in a while drinker when forced or something like that.

I think this is bullshit, I think being an excessive drinker (addiction, compulsion, whatever word you choose) has three general causes, all of which are deep seated and don't just go away - 1. genetic 2. personality (formed during early childhood/adolescence) 3. experience (can be single bad trauma that causes something like PTSD, can be a variety of much less severe experiences that taken together, and in combination with the first two factors, make someone different).

Look at your results. You were sober but not really sober for two years. Then you started getting trashed again. And now you are just a week away from a Carnaval bender.

If that is the result of the Carr system/philosophy, I'll stick with Lizard of Oz. What he says and does allows a person who has done damage to their lives to improve themselves without jumping through mental hoops or judging those people who drink casually and without harming themselves.

Post: #1449

I've been off the sauce for 5 months as of today (retroactive to 9/23). Still feeling great, post-rehab. I got some good advice, and lately I've been trying to implement some new habits. For example: picked up a bright light box, and have been using it every morning to establish a consistent waking time and chase off the winter blues. This has made my mornings way less stressful. No more slapping at my alarm for 40 minutes, then rushing out the door, one leg in my pants. Now I'm having breakfast in front of the light box and getting a head start on some work. Good stuff.

One notable thing that's changed on this wagon has been my demeanor at work. I'm so focused and serious, that minor annoyances like drive-by requests, whining, half-assed troubleshooting make me bristle a bit. It's not that I'm surly - I'm just in the zone, and I value my time much more than I used to. Co-workers approach me with caution. I was not like this on my first wagon.

Anyway. I'm fully committed to the remaining 7 months.

Post: #1450

CIS, that's great to hear. Keep using that light box correctly and consistently and it will serve you in good stead. That can be a truly life-changing habit, so keep it up.

And, since I don't think you've announced it on this thread before, welcome back aboard as of September 23, 2015 and hope to hear more from you here over time.