Post: #1

I got to thinking about this.

Could the argument be made that Roosh's work has prevented more rape than it has caused?

Is there the possibility that learning how to genuinely attract women leads to fewer sexually frustrated men? Men that could possibly have otherwise taken more extreme measures to fulfill their needs?

If there is the possibility of this, does that make Roosh an Anti-Rape Advocate?


Edit:Grammar

Post: #2

Game does more than prevent rape. Game saves lives. Look up ROK articles about Elliot Rodger. There are also articles about (IIRC) Arthur Hu (EDIT: Wilkes McDermott, thanks @fokker), a moderately successful Asian chef who killed himself and in his suicide note indicated that the express reason for his doing so was because he was desperately lonely and could not figure out how to attract a woman. Game, or at least learning something of the art of seduction, could have kept him from topping himself.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #3

Possibly, but I have serious doubts. To learn Game takes time, effort and determination. Somehow, when I picture the dregs that rape, I don't picture someone who is committed and determined to bettering himself/herself.

Take care

Post: #4

(02-08-2016 09:08 PM)Gopher Wrote:  I got to thinking about this.

Could the argument be made that Roosh's work has prevented more rape than it has caused?

Is there the possibility that learning how to genuinely attract women leads to fewer sexually frustrated men? Men that could possibly have otherwise taken more extreme measures to fulfill their needs?

If there is the possibility of this, does that make Roosh an Anti-Rape Advocate?


Edit:Grammar

Who says it's caused any?

Post: #5

Does Roosh's work prevent rape? Yes. Additionally, Paracelsus rightly points out that it may even have the power to save lives. But it doesn't matter, because facts will fall on the deaf ears of those who wish to destroy us.

The problem is that you can't win over a craven mob with logic and reason. We've revealed some inconvenient truths, and these beasts hate us for it. We are the iconoclasts and heretics to their religion.

Post: #6

(02-08-2016 09:12 PM)Paracelsus Wrote:  Game does more than prevent rape. Game saves lives. Look up ROK articles about Elliot Rodger. There are also articles about (IIRC) Arthur Hu, a moderately successful Asian chef who killed himself and in his suicide note indicated that the express reason for his doing so was because he was desperately lonely and could not figure out how to attract a woman. Game, or at least learning something of the art of seduction, could have kept him from topping himself.

It was actually Wilkes McDermott who killed himself.

Post: #7

Sexually frustrated young males are dangerous.

Roosh and ROK provide general and actionable guidance which reduces the total amount of sexual frustration in the world.

The answer is yes.

It's impossible to know how much, but imagine that the pioneers of game didn't exist.

Imagine googling "how to meet girls" and instead of Roosh you get jezebel claiming that men feel "entitled to sex."

What would that do to a young man's mind?

To get a sense of what sexual shaming does to a beta male, take a look at this account from MIT professor Scott Aaronson, writing about his early sexual development and requests for chemical castration (he's responding to a feminist):

Quote:(sigh) Here’s the thing: I spent my formative years—basically, from the age of 12 until my mid-20s—feeling not “entitled,” not “privileged,” but terrified. I was terrified that one of my female classmates would somehow find out that I sexually desired her, and that the instant she did, I would be scorned, laughed at, called a creep and a weirdo, maybe even expelled from school or sent to prison. And furthermore, that the people who did these things to me would somehow be morally right to do them—even if I couldn’t understand how.

You can call that my personal psychological problem if you want, but it was strongly reinforced by everything I picked up from my environment: to take one example, the sexual-assault prevention workshops we had to attend regularly as undergrads, with their endless lists of all the forms of human interaction that “might be” sexual harassment or assault, and their refusal, ever, to specify anything that definitely wouldn’t be sexual harassment or assault. I left each of those workshops with enough fresh paranoia and self-hatred to last me through another year.

My recurring fantasy, through this period, was to have been born a woman, or a gay man, or best of all, (completely asexual, so that I could simply devote my life to math, like my hero Paul Erdös did). Anything, really, other than the curse of having been born a heterosexual male, which for me, meant being consumed by desires that one couldn’t act on or even admit without running the risk of becoming an objectifier or a stalker or a harasser or some other creature of the darkness.

Of course, I was smart enough to realize that maybe this was silly, maybe I was overanalyzing things. So I scoured the feminist literature for any statement to the effect that my fears were as silly as I hoped they were. But I didn’t find any. On the contrary: I found reams of text about how even the most ordinary male/female interactions are filled with “microaggressions,” and how even the most “enlightened” males—especially the most “enlightened” males, in fact—are filled with hidden entitlement and privilege and a propensity to sexual violence that could burst forth at any moment.

Because of my fears—my fears of being “outed” as a nerdy heterosexual male, and therefore as a potential creep or sex criminal—I had constant suicidal thoughts. As Bertrand Russell wrote of his own adolescence: “I was put off from suicide only by the desire to learn more mathematics.”

At one point, I actually begged a psychiatrist to prescribe drugs that would chemically castrate me (I had researched which ones), because a life of mathematical asceticism was the only future that I could imagine for myself. The psychiatrist refused to prescribe them, but he also couldn’t suggest any alternative: my case genuinely stumped him. As well it might—for in some sense, there was nothing “wrong” with me. In a different social context—for example, that of my great-grandparents in the shtetl—I would have gotten married at an early age and been completely fine. (And after a decade of being coy about it, I suppose I’ve finally revealed the meaning of this blog’s title.)

All this time, I faced constant reminders that the males who didn’t spend months reading and reflecting about feminism and their own shortcomings—even the ones who went to the opposite extreme, who engaged in what you called “good old-fashioned ass-grabbery”—actually had success that way. The same girls who I was terrified would pepper-spray me and call the police if I looked in their direction, often responded to the crudest advances of the most Neanderthal of men by accepting those advances. Yet it was I, the nerd, and not the Neanderthals, who needed to check his privilege and examine his hidden entitlement!

[...]

No, there was no such revelation. All that happened was that I got older, and after years of hard work, I achieved some success in science, and that success boosted my self-confidence (at least now I had something worth living for), and the newfound confidence, besides making me more attractive, also made me able to (for example) ask a woman out, despite not being totally certain that my doing so would pass muster with a committee of radfems chaired by Andrea Dworkin—a prospect that was previously unthinkable to me. This, to my mind, “defiance” of feminism is the main reason why I was able to enjoy a few years of a normal, active dating life, which then led to meeting the woman who I married. To the many people who expressed concern about me or offered advice: thanks! But I hasten to assure you that I’m now quite happy, with a wonderful wife and a beautiful 2-year-old daughter. Indeed, it’s precisely because I’m happy that I’m now able to speak openly about these sensitive subjects—in the hope of helping some younger nerds who read this blog. And indeed, I’ve been gratified by the hundred or so people who emailed me over the past few weeks to say that my speaking up did help them—given the online vilification campaign against me, their emails have become one of the major ways I make it through the day.

Now, the whole time I was struggling with this, I was also fighting a second battle: to maintain the liberal, enlightened, feminist ideals that I had held since childhood, against a powerful current pulling me away from them. I reminded myself, every day, that no, there’s no conspiracy to make the world a hell for shy male nerds. There are only individual women and men trying to play the cards they’re dealt, and the confluence of their interests sometimes leads to crappy outcomes. No woman “owes” male nerds anything; no woman deserves blame if she prefers the Neanderthals; everyone’s free choice demands respect.

That I managed to climb out of the pit with my feminist beliefs mostly intact, you might call a triumph of abstract reason over experience.

Interestingly, Professor Aaronson was subjected to a similar (milder) version of what Roosh experienced after he posted that. His post went viral and the feminists had a field day exploiting this man's pain. "MIT Professor Says Learning To Meet Women Is The Real Oppression" and so forth.

Post: #8

Not really. Why? Because A. Rape has never been a statistically significant problem in developed countries and B. The rate has been declining since the late 70s.

Also, none of the facts matter because Roosh is up against the fake rape narrative which has a lot of forms but it's ultimate goal is to classify all sex as rape. Anything that helps men get laid adds to the fake rape number.

Post: #9

No. No one's work "prevents" rape or "causes" rape or does anything remotely related to it.

There are two things. First, there is the actual crime of rape. This is a violent crime which is quite rare in developed, first world countries, less rare in various third world hellholes, and only really common in war zones. Outside of war, it is a crime committed almost exclusively by lower class, uneducated and violent men. They do not read anyone's "work" and that work does nothing to either instigate or restrain them.

Second, there is the endless, absurdist and intolerable Year Zero feminist obsession with the abstract idea of "rape" which is completely divorced from all reality and has nothing to do with the actual deed. It is a species of chatter, which would be only vaguely unpleasant and annoying if it didn't have as its ultimate goal -- and occasional end result -- the evil and sinister idea that any action whatsoever by normal heterosexual men can be criminalized. If you read the unbelievable -- but true -- recent thread about a Canadian man whose life was turned into a living hell for a full year because he happened to accidentally brush by a woman for less than a second, you see the logical conclusion of the unreal and abstracted YZ chatter about "rape" and where it really leads.

The very discussion of "rape" as if it were a subject of the least relevance to anyone who doesn't happen to be involved with specific parts of the criminal justice system, or who recently escaped from Sierra Leone, is a concession to the disgustingly absurd feminist Year Zero narrative. Except in parts of Europe overrun by thuggish "migrants", women in the West have never been safer and rape has never been less common. There is no need to argue whether this or that piece of writing "causes" rape or "prevents" it; the very premise of the question is wrong, and feminists who attempt to talk about rape should be told at every turn that they simply have no idea what they're talking about; that it's all chatter which has no relation to anything in the real world other than the sadistic persecution of innocent normal heterosexual men. That's all.

Post: #10

(02-08-2016 09:19 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 09:08 PM)Gopher Wrote:  I got to thinking about this.

Could the argument be made that Roosh's work has prevented more rape than it has caused?

Is there the possibility that learning how to genuinely attract women leads to fewer sexually frustrated men? Men that could possibly have otherwise taken more extreme measures to fulfill their needs?

If there is the possibility of this, does that make Roosh an Anti-Rape Advocate?


Edit:Grammar

Who says it's caused any?

I debated using that phrasing. I went ahead and used it for the case of the argument.

Post: #11

I would argue that 99.x% men wouldn't rape no matter what, and rapists would rape no matter what.

"Teach men not to rape" is bullshit.

"Teach men game so they don't rape" is also bullshit.

There is no rape culture, and there is not a rapist within every man that can burst out at a moments notice.

Post: #12

I'll repost below a post I wrote in the James Deen thread:

(12-05-2015 04:14 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  This random NYC police blotter story caught my eye today:

Woman collecting recycling bottles raped at knifepoint

Quote:EAST ELMHURST, Queens (WABC) --
Police are looking for a suspect they say raped a woman who was looking through outdoor recycling for cans and bottles in Queens overnight Friday.

Authorities say the 40-year-old victim was attacked on 83rd Street in East Elmhurst just before 1 a.m. by a man who rode up on a bicycle.

The suspect reportedly told the woman he had more cans and bottles behind the building and asked if she wanted them.

When she went to the rear of the building with him, police say he pulled out a knife and raped her.

She was taken to Elmhurst Hospital to be treated.

The suspect fled northbound on 83rd Street on his bicycle.

He is described as a Hispanic man between 20 and 30 years old, wearing all black clothing and a hat.

Anyone with information is asked to call the NYPD's Crime Stoppers Hotline at 800-577-TIPS.

Why I am posting this relatively unremarkable police blotter story?

Because this is what actual, real rape in all its gritty reality looks like. The low-class neighborhood; the woman's age (40) and obvious poverty/possible homelessness (collecting recycling bottles to make a few pennies); the late night hour; a younger criminal who has nothing more than a bike to make his escape and nothing more than a knife for a weapon. Note that the cops are notified as a matter of course and the woman gets taken to the hospital immediately.

This is what rape is; it is a relatively rare violent crime, but it does happen in bad neighborhoods from time to time. It is a serious crime -- not more heinous than murder, not more unspeakable than any torture, not a sacrilegious violation that no one could ever comprehend; but a serious crime nonetheless and one that deserves to be punished accordingly.

What we are talking about in this thread -- and in all the campus "assault" threads, and in all the endless Internet chatter ostensibly devoted to the subject -- has literally nothing to do with this. Nothing. It is not "rape" or "assault" or anything remotely resembling these things as they really are.

Words have meanings and the true meaning of the word "rape" is depicted in that East Elmhurst, Queens police blotter entry in its actual gritty and unglamorous reality. We should not forget that, and we should never let deranged Year Zero ideologues get away with using a simple hard English word with a real meaning in absurd and unreal ways, whose only purpose is to impose their monstrous ideology on us and terrorize normal innocent men everywhere.

Just say no to what Tuthmosis once brilliantly called "rape Tourette's". Post actual police blotter entries like this one when Year Zero SJW monsters start canting about their favorite subject, and tell them: this is what "rape" really is, so shut the fuck up with your bullshit, and stop abusing the word. Never let them get away with it; not for a moment. Shove this gritty reality in their nasty Year Zero mugs until they choke on their absurdist word garbage. Enough of this evil nonsense.

Post: #13

Agreed. In the countries where most noise is made about it, the crime itself is so rare that any individual influences to gender relations whether Roosh or other sources of information would have negligible if any influence on the overall numbers. As well pointed out by LOZ, a certain type of man, a tiny minority, might always be more predisposed to do it.

The only thing that would have a significant impact would be entire cultural change, such as the successful and complete subversion of an entire culture into one which actually promotes the crime or at least does not regard it as a crime. The latest example would of course be in Sweden and Germany where male muslim migrants genuinely believe "non-believing" women who do not cover themselves up are fair game. For all the shit thrown at white heterosexual males, there is actually such a low fraction of a percentage of these men who would actually do what a sizeable majority of muslim immigrants would do to white western women, that it is shocking where all this "culture" rhetoric actually came from.

Real rapists are being let in in their thousands every day, while an entire race of men are preemptively discouraged from committing a crime they were never going to commit anyway, thus leading to a life of confusion, shame and, eventually, depression and suicidal thoughts described by Scott Aaronson.

Men simply must meet their sexual and emotional needs with women, otherwise there are serious consequences for their mental health. It seems that women will scream as loud as they can about issues concerning female mental illness, for example post-natal depression, survivor groups, women's shelters, while men are absolutely disgusting for being born with such needs and vilified if they dare express them.

Men fall into serious depression if they do not have their basic sexual and emotional needs met, but that this does not lead to them attacking women. I would therefore say that "game", where the information has helped a previously depressed man fulfil his sexual and emotional needs, saves lives and prevents a lot of male suffering for which no one in the establishment has any sympathy, and for which feminists (quite disgustingly) only have gloating disdain. The hypocrisy as always is palpable.

As Roosh's message spreads wider, both about "game" and the wider issues of the narrative of the establishment gets exposed, more men will hopefully permit themselves to act as men and to no longer be ashamed and psychologically shackled by bogus propaganda.

In conclusion the work of Roosh V neither increases nor decreases attacks upon women to any statistically significant degree, however his work does save many men from suicide or perhaps worse completely broken lives of very painful depression.

Post: #14

This relates to another thought experiment of Roosh's, six reasons not to rape, where one point was it will hurt you dick because she won't be lubricated.

It was a satirical response to "teach men not to rape" where the inference was "men have now been taught, we can close this chapter"

The clear conclusion, synthesis if you will, is that men are already taught not to rape, and those that do rape are also taught but ignoring it because they're sociopaths or psychopaths.

No 'teaching' will amend this.

Any sane person gasps at the outrage of 'legalise rape' in Roosh's recent drama because were not psychopaths, we KNOW it's wrong, how can anyone conclude a large body of men would make such an endorsement with sincerity and not interpret it as satire.

Post: #15

You are all correct in pointing out that actual rape is a violent act which is extremely rare throughout human history except during times of war. Something has changed in recent times, though. Yes, the 'rape culture' hysteria and redefinition of rape has destroyed any real conception of what actual rape is. In reality, this has no effect on men. Men don't need to be taught not to rape, that's ridiculous.

But I would argue that it does have an effect on women. In his press conference, Roosh rightly points out that we shouldn't encourage risky behavior. We live in a society where women are encouraged to go out alone, take drugs, get completely shitfaced, incapacitate themselves, and go home with strange men they've just met. On the off chance that the stranger they met is one of the 0.1% of men who was actually inclined to rape, the risks are greatly enhanced. This kind of reckless behavior has never before been encouraged in history. And for calling it out for what it is, he's labeled as 'victim blaming'.

Society treats women as children, but gives them complete autonomy and never forces them to learn from their mistakes. It also forces women to degrade themselves and walk all over men to the point where we've become completely disillusioned. This has caused a massive rift between the sexes, and I can't recall the level of antagonism between men and women ever being worse. When men have been treated this way for so long, where's the incentive for them to lift a finger for the women that have disparaged them this whole time? It gives rise to situations like this:





Yes, there is a sense of entitlement there, but I empathize with this girl. Her sisters before her are the ones that poisoned the well, and she's the one who has to deal with the fallout. In situations where roving rape mobs stalk the lands, it takes strong, masculine men to stand up and discourage them. All the more encouragement if what they're protecting is actually worth saving. For decades now, feminists have bleeted "I don't need a man", they have pursued men relentlessly in the family courts and stripped them of their assets, they have cheated on them and cuckolded them, showing nothing but utter disrespect. Now they need men and they are left like the boy who cried wolf.

Roosh calls on women to become responsible and protect themselves. He encourages women to adopt a lifestyle that gains the respect of a man that would protect and honor them. He encourages men to stand up and embrace their masculinity. He is the best ally they've ever had, and I hope they realize it before it's too late.

Post: #16

It's sad that girls like this will now be so scared of men in public that we soon won't even be able to say hello without a good % of them being on edge. She seems a bit entitled sure but quite intelligent for a 16 year old girl. Heck more intelligent than 99% of women period. Cute as a button too. So sad to realize she and other native girls like her are nothing but prey for thirsty degenerate north african mobs.

If he saw Germany right now Hitler would be turning in his grave. Shit, 2 years ago when I was there Berlin was bad enough, full of immigrants, hipsters, leftist freaks and most true germans were older folks quietly and solemnly resigned to the decline. The native people seemed to come a distant second to anyone else. It felt devoid of national identity. Post war guilt gone too far. Thanks to that fat old man who let them all in I don't share the 16 year old sweetheart's optimism. I think Germany is fucked. I will not be going there again. But I wish that girl the best, she has balls for standing up against the narrative and has been banned and denounced by the establishment I hear.

Post: #17

I'm pretty sure that a couple of Elliott Rogers have already been prevented by guys learning how to Game properly. Game is like the supreme gentlemen emergency hotline

Post: #18

I think it's a tangent. As plenty of us have said hundreds of times, guys like Elliot Rodger don't get saved by game. The guy was fucking crazy and hopeless. There have been people like him all throughout history.

I do think many men are ticking time bombs now. Not all the limp wrists but mainly young men in our inner cities. But this has nothing to do with being sexually frustrated. Sexually frustrated men aren't necesarily dangerous. Sexually frustrated men with a strong culture and father's influence don't generally hurt people; there are men throughout history who went their entire lives without getting laid. Many poor men in poor countries never get laid or so rarely do it's laughable.

What is dangerous are lost young men without masculine guidance or the influence of a sane culture. We are lost, and I think this community does a lot to help men find themselves again, but make no mistake, some are just getting more lost too.

To me it seems like you're seeking out black and white answers and using your newfound faith in this community to further glorify it - perhaps so you can belong to something that counts in life. Many young men in our society have this craving - it is natural, especially in these times we live in.

And solidarity can be a worthy thing to have, but don't use solidarity as an excuse to decide "game" or "red pill beliefs" are some kind of panacea. When you're too quick to walk down the path of deciding the community has everything figured out or that it can do your thinking for you, you condition yourself for the same kind of hive mind thinking we've been up against.

I like this community because men here are rediscovering the need and ability to think and question things. The recent shitstorm with the media is an example of why it's so necessary. But thinking is also a great responsibility and deserves more effort than silly platitudes like "game saves lives."

What we need is massive cultural change - not for every guy to suddenly have "game." That's not an answer for an entire civilization.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #19

Well said BB. To be honest I rarely browse the "game" forum, not because I think I'm above it but because there comes a point where the information is enough and all that's left is to go out and do it. I've noticed a shift in this forum's priorities and activities, going from just "game" to wider issues of the collapse of civilization and the need for massive cultural change.

If you live in a good environment, not the toxic one a lot of us live in, there is a lot less need for being a clown or using gimmicks and tricks to get girls. In some areas of the world, just acting like a reasonably well adjusted human being gets you way more girls than great "game" in socially toxic areas. The state of civilization, largely out of our control, can determine a man's success more than his own efforts to improve himself or apply "game". In the west it's almost a "battle" to get a girl, while in other places it feels more natural and is just two people treating each other with basic respect. In fact everything becomes more of a battle as the man hating trends in society haven't yet reached their peak. When will it reach its peak? Some feminists have called for the mass slaughter of men. Back in the mid 20th century no one would have predicted how hostile our society has become to men, false rape accusations, divorce rape etc., it's not beyond the realm possibility.