Post: #1

VICE isn't what it used to be, but it still occasionally puts out a decent piece. I think this is one of them.

Debt Dodgers: Meet the Americans Who Moved to Europe and Went AWOL on Their Student Loans

Quote:It's difficult to overstate how crushing America's student loan debt situation is. The amount of money adults in the US owe due to educations is over $1.3 trillion and jumps up by more than $2,000 every second. The average borrower owes $28,000, though some owe much more than that. Many former students, trapped between low wages and the high cost of education, can barely afford to keep up with interest payments, let alone start paying off the principal.

Some people are put in so desperate a spot they have attempted to bail on their loans by fleeing the country and hiding out from the banks and collection agencies that will inevitably start looking for them.

It sounds slightly unbelievable, not to mention probably a bad idea from a long-term personal finance point of view, but these debt dodgers are real. I've met these Americans in Berlin, my adopted city. I haven't been able to find any statistics on how many of them there are, but I'm not the only one who's noticed the people fleeing US because of their student loans.

"It's a phenomenon that I'm quite familiar with actually," says student loan lawyer and author Adam S. Minsky. "In my experience, people leave because there's a sense of hopelessness and they see greater opportunities overseas, usually through a combination of higher pay and lower living expenses. They think they'll be better positioned to either pay their loans in real time, from abroad, or to save up and be in a better place to address the loans a couple of years from now."

Many of the students I talked to fear the possible consequences of this strategy, but so far none of them have faced any repercussions. And according to some experts, they may never.

Joshua R. I. Cohen, who calls himself The Student Loan Lawyer, tells me that this plan could work for some people, albeit only if the debt dodgers plan to never live in the US again. Students who move to a foreign country and stop paying off their loan debt "will only feel consequences if they're working for a US company on foreign soil," Cohen says.

If you're living abroad, earning a living from a foreign company, not paying US taxes, and not collecting social security, then loan companies can't touch you, nor will the government chase you after you move abroad.

"The federal government doesn't have really strong tools for collecting debt from people who move overseas," says Mark Kantrowitz, another expert on student loans who serves on the board of the Journal of Student Financial Aid. "In theory, you could live the rest of your life in another country."

Of course, if your family co-signed your loan with you and remain in America, they'll still be on the hook. And this strategy relies on you not wanting to go home again. If these former students ever decide to come back to the US, "the debt will still be there—it never goes away," says Cohen. "All they're doing is putting off what could happen if they come back to the US."

The remainder of the piece profiles some Americans who moved to Europe to escape soul-crushing student loan debt.

I know that a lot of the members here are expats for a various reasons. Was anyone motivated to go abroad because of student loans?

Post: #2

I know at least one of our Thailand experts is blowing off their student debt payments. I can't remember which one.

If I owed so much that I had no chance of ever paying it back I might do the same.

Post: #3

On that same note. Nearly everyone I know who has student loans while in Japan busts their ass to make payments every month by either living extremely frugally or having a part time job on the weekends so that they could make payments of 500-1000 USD monthly.

I am just happy to have been registered as a Florida resident. They had this Bright Futures Scholarship that paid from anywhere between 75% - 100% of our college tuition so long as we had and maintained good grades. Which was far from difficult.

Post: #4

For some people it might make sense. Those who bought into being a lawyer even though they weren't very bright, so end up with 200,000+ plus in loans getting their law degree from a terrible university, but aren't smart enough to pass the bar. Thailand has to be better than dealing with that.

Post: #5

I could definitely do this, but it would annoy the fuck out of my parents, because my dad and I have a very similar name and their address is my most recent Canadian address (from 11 years ago). Guess who the debt collectors are going to call every day?

I think I'll do the honourable thing.

Post: #6

(01-20-2016 12:11 AM)Suits Wrote:  I could definitely do this, but it would annoy the fuck out of my parents, because my dad and I have a very similar name and their address is my most recent Canadian address (from 11 years ago). Guess who the debt collectors are going to call every day?

I think I'll do the honourable thing.

In fairness you studied in Ontario though no?

School is way cheaper here than the top schools in the US.

Post: #7

(01-20-2016 12:19 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

(01-20-2016 12:11 AM)Suits Wrote:  I could definitely do this, but it would annoy the fuck out of my parents, because my dad and I have a very similar name and their address is my most recent Canadian address (from 11 years ago). Guess who the debt collectors are going to call every day?

I think I'll do the honourable thing.

In fairness you studied in Ontario though no?

School is way cheaper here than the top schools in the US.

In all fairness, I studied at an expensive private school in Michigan.

Post: #8

It's possible, sure, but the human cost of it....

It'd basically ensure that you'd never be able to step foot in your home country ever again. All it would take to screw you permanently would be for a foreign government to want you deported for any reason whatsoever. And with US citizens, you have to pay taxes regardless of whether or not you are outside the country. You could go to jail for years if the US government got their hands on you.

It'd basically ensure you'd be living the rest of your life on the semi-run.

Post: #9

(01-20-2016 12:27 AM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  It's possible, sure, but the human cost of it....

It'd basically ensure that you'd never be able to step foot in your home country ever again. All it would take to screw you permanently would be for a foreign government to want you deported for any reason whatsoever. And with US citizens, you have to pay taxes regardless of whether or not you are outside the country. You could go to jail for years if the US government got their hands on you.

It'd basically ensure you'd be living the rest of your life on the semi-run.

Ideally you'd find a country to get citizenship in and renounce your US citizenship.

Which countries are the easiest to become naturalized in? Besides the ones where you can just pay for it, obviously.

Post: #10

I can definitely relate to the people who blow off the debt. I'm more than $100K in the hole myself.

Right now, however, trying to run away doesn't make sense for me. I've got a good job lined up when I get out of school. It clears six figures. I won't get out of debt overnight, but there's light at the end of the tunnel.

But if I didn't have a job and my loans were coming due, it wouldn't be the worst option . . .

Post: #11

(01-20-2016 12:27 AM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  It's possible, sure, but the human cost of it....

It'd basically ensure that you'd never be able to step foot in your home country ever again. All it would take to screw you permanently would be for a foreign government to want you deported for any reason whatsoever. And with US citizens, you have to pay taxes regardless of whether or not you are outside the country. You could go to jail for years if the US government got their hands on you.

It'd basically ensure you'd be living the rest of your life on the semi-run.

Yes. A much better approach would be to transfer the debt to a credit card, if you could. Cash advance, maybe? Whatever. See, you can't default on student loan debt in a bankruptcy. But credit card debt? You can. Not that I recommend bankruptcy. BUT, if your alternative is to flee your homeland...

Post: #12

You'll have to look up the details, but I remember seeing that they were considering the option to revoke passports (and block renunciation of U.S. citizenship) if you have debts higher than $50k.

Maybe they talk about this in the video; haven't watched it yet.

Post: #13

(01-20-2016 12:23 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(01-20-2016 12:19 AM)lavidaloca Wrote:  

(01-20-2016 12:11 AM)Suits Wrote:  I could definitely do this, but it would annoy the fuck out of my parents, because my dad and I have a very similar name and their address is my most recent Canadian address (from 11 years ago). Guess who the debt collectors are going to call every day?

I think I'll do the honourable thing.

In fairness you studied in Ontario though no?

School is way cheaper here than the top schools in the US.

In all fairness, I studied at an expensive private school in Michigan.

I stand corrected!

Post: #14

I've considered telling my student loans to fuck off, but that would saddle my co-signers (parents) with my debt. Still, I know some people really have a hopelessly large amount to pay off. While I'm not totally empathetic towards their situation--you really thought your degree in Feelings Studies would pay off your $1500/month loans--I am sympathetic to the fact that college is so overpriced to begin with. My generation really had no idea what they were getting into.

Post: #15

...

Post: #16

If you took out a loan of our own volition (i.e. someone did not point a gun at your hand and demand you sign on the dotted line) then pay the fucking money back you fucking scumbag.

All these millienials think they're student debt should be forgiven or that they don't really owe it because they were "compelled" to take out loans for an education they believed would be for fiscally rewarding than it was. Well tough shit, lesson learned. Now pay the fucking money back.

It's oh-so-much-easier to just say, "oh well I don't deserve to pay this, let the rich people pay it inside and they'll subsidize my default" Well if you say that, then go fuck yourself.

Post: #17

(01-20-2016 01:19 AM)monster Wrote:  If you took out a loan of our own volition (i.e. someone did not point a gun at your hand and demand you sign on the dotted line) then pay the fucking money back you fucking scumbag.

All these millienials think they're student debt should be forgiven or that they don't really owe it because they were "compelled" to take out loans for an education they believed would be for fiscally rewarding than it was. Well tough shit, lesson learned. Now pay the fucking money back.

It's oh-so-much-easier to just say, "oh well I don't deserve to pay this, let the rich people pay it inside and they'll subsidize my default" Well if you say that, then go fuck yourself.

Agreed. Grow the fuck up and learn to take responsibility for your own actions. It's all your damn fault you're not intelligent/hard working enough to major in something marketable so as to pay back the loans YOU voluntarily took out.

Post: #18

And what message does that send to all the "suckers" who were stupid enough to take responsibility for their own decision? Kind of makes them look real stupid. kind of makes them wonder why they were doing the right thing, when they didn't have to.

Post: #19

(01-20-2016 01:19 AM)monster Wrote:  If you took out a loan of our own volition (i.e. someone did not point a gun at your hand and demand you sign on the dotted line) then pay the fucking money back you fucking scumbag.

All these millienials think they're student debt should be forgiven or that they don't really owe it because they were "compelled" to take out loans for an education they believed would be for fiscally rewarding than it was. Well tough shit, lesson learned. Now pay the fucking money back.

It's oh-so-much-easier to just say, "oh well I don't deserve to pay this, let the rich people pay it inside and they'll subsidize my default" Well if you say that, then go fuck yourself.

Yeah I get this, but I'd might still do the same thing if I was in the same situation. If the loan was directly to the university, there is a very strong chance I would.

Sure, you agreed to the loan, but it was a younger, dumber version of you that signed up. A kid who had been lead down the garden path, by friends family and teachers, about the value of his worthless college degree. Choosing exile over accepting your bondage doesn't sound that immoral to me.

If enough people did it, it'd probably force the government to stop guaranteeing so many loans, and tougher credit would make people take their education spending more seriously and shop for better deals, which would help alleviate the problem.

Post: #20

I thought federal debt never goes away just like IRS debt. If you owe it, it eventually goes into government collections and they have the reach to garnish straight from your wages or bank account. If you owe the government money it's there pretty much forever.

So someone could run away from it awhile off the grid but if they were to return to the U.S. and wanted a normal job and life they are still fucked. There's also hefty interest and non payment penalties on top of that.

Also if they do decide to revoke passport renewal you are doubly fucked.

People who do things like this are just fuck ups. I don't have much sympathy for that.

Post: #21

This is a bad idea. The US government has been going nuts trying to find people who have back taxes. Eventually student loans are going to become a massive issue and the same apparatus used to collect back taxes from people fleeing abroad will be used to snag student loan debtors if the loans are federally backed ones.

You can't renounce your citizenship unless you've acquired a new citizenship as well as paid off your "exit tax". Whether this includes federal student loans is another question, but it isn't far fetched to imagine this.

Post: #22

Fuck the federal government. It is the ceaseless expansion in the amount of money available via Federal loans that drives the ridiculous tuition rises that have made university such a bad fucking investment even for intelligent people who "belong" in college. The only reason people are forced into debt slavery to get a college degree is because the federal government provides student loans. Guess what? If student loans were not available, shitty private universities, and even the more expensive of the flagship state universities, would not be able to charge outrageous tuition.

Only a handful of students come from families wealthy enough to pay the tuition out of pocket. Take away student loans, and all of a sudden 90% of students can't afford their tuition. What happens when a good or a service suddenly loses 90% of its demand? Its price drops. Take the federal government and its non-dischargeable loans out of the equation, and college tuition will "magically" drops to a level where most people can afford it without having to mortgage almost the entirety of their working lives.

I'm going to say it again: people who are fucked with loans have been ass raped by the federal government. Law school would not cost $200k if the Federal government did not make 200k available for everyone who wants to go to law school, because literally nobody has 200k just sitting around waiting to be spent on law school tuition. The federal student loans program is a complete racket set up to enslave the population and enrich the worst scum in society: the banks, university, and government.

I paid back my student loans not because I felt morally obliged to but because I made a cold, hard calculation to determine which course of action was better for my long term future. But nothing would have pleased me more than to hold up the middle finger and leave these bastards high and dry.

Post: #23

Some see the perspective that students voluntarily took on the debt by signing an agreement, got what they deserved, and simply need to pay up. It's definitely not an unreasonable stance to take.

The rationale I see behind this trend is that many of these students didn't think the consequences through when they borrowed that $120,000 to get a liberal arts degree that gives them no skills beyond a Starbucks barista. The money they borrow doesn't mean much to them until they have to start making payments.

If you don't have a good plan to pay it back, it spirals out of control. Although student debt isn't collateralized like a home mortgage, it can't be discharged in bankruptcy. If you don't pay when you're supposed to, you will be hit with late fees, additional interest, and wage garnishments (if you make any money). And the calls and harassment from the collection agency never stop.

And I think many people (millennials especially) see through the poly. They're stuck paying 6 or 7% interest on loans--an astronomical rate by today's lending standards for long-term debt. If a non-STEM major is lucky, he's going to be able to just tread water in terms of making the interest payments without paying down the principal. And that's just what the lender (the government) and the loan servicer want. They would be perfectly happy to rake in the interest payments for 20 or 30 years while the student makes little or no progress in paying off the principal. That's why the federal government is happy to finance most student loans. It's one of its cash cows that keeps giving.

And then there's the red pill perspective. You're told from an early age that education is the key to success. So you spend 4 years at an ultra-liberal university that gives you little (if any) skills. You get out, and you're told to consume, consume, and consume. Buy that house. Get that car. If you do, you'll get that "hot" girl who becomes your wife (30+ and ready for a beta). You're told to be materialistic and finance it with additional debt that goes to corporate behemoths that shit on traditional values and a government that is morally and financially bankrupt. All so you can slave in a cubicle by day and live a domesticated life with the wife and kids on the weekends. Until the inevitable divorce. I can understand why many my age don't have a lot of reservations about opting out of America and breaking a prior financial agreement they made along the way.

In a way, the expats dodging debt do pay a price for their choice. It has to be a clean break. They commit financial suicide. If they come back into the country, their credit is shot for eternity and nobody will want to loan them a nickel. If they do show up, they'll be right back where they started and will have to pay extra. And while they're gone, they won't get any entitlements from the U.S. (I don't know if that's usually more than what they owe in debt).

I don't think they go to jail even if they come back without paying--failure to pay is simply breaking a contract and debtor's prison has long been abolished. I really don't know about the passport limbo. I guess you would simply find legal status in another country in case that happens.

Post: #24

The best part about enslaving millennials with student loan debt: if they never pay it off, the Federal Government doesn't have to pay out social security!

All of those "Social Security Tax" with holdings then get eaten up by the government to pay off the loan you never intended to pay!

It's a genius plan, enslave the most productive members of society while giving freebies to the monied, intelligentsia class, and the parasite class.

My previous thread is relevant here:

Quote:As a resident of Boston, I am surrounded by foolish millennials who continue to think that more student loans and a higher up degree are the path to financial success.

Can't find a job? Go to graduate school! That master's degree in public health, philosophy, law, and other fluff from a second or third tier university will get you a job!

How is it that a bunch of supposedly "highly" credentialed individuals didn't think that, "Oh golly gee lets go and do more of the same because i'm good at taking tests and school lets me delay the cold reality that I have no marketable skills beyond being a compliant test taker? Mommy, daddy, and my college career office said that if I get some even more expensive paper degrees i'll get a cushy white collar job!

Ever notice that these individuals tend to be of the progressive, multicultural variety? These people are convenient useful idiots for a financial system built on cheap oil.

These people have foolishly enslaved themselves to a puppet master that knows that personal loans are slavery.

The worst part is, these individuals are some of the most stuck up and entitled individuals you will ever meet. Not just the women, but the men as well.

"Respect me! I have a college degree!"

The car mechanic who is up to date on his loans in my opinion is the one whose voice should be heard at the voting booths.

The $95,000 indebted sociology major who has been in default for two years while working at Starbucks should be praying every day that they don't make debtors prison a thing again. He deserves no respect nor should his opinion have any sway in politics. If you can't make good decisions about your education, let alone finances, what makes us think he'll be able to vote accordingly?

TL;DR
Here's a grand solution, if you're in default for your government subsidized student loans you don't deserve the right to vote.

Personally, knowing who has exorbitant student loan debt to pay off makes me smile knowing that they're the ones who are going to get hurt.

The US will devolve not into a socialist paradise, but a Starship Troopers one where your life decisions dictate whether or not you participate in the civic right to vote. I look forward to seeing the enslaved libtards reap what they sow.

Post: #25

(01-20-2016 12:27 AM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  It's possible, sure, but the human cost of it....

It'd basically ensure that you'd never be able to step foot in your home country ever again. All it would take to screw you permanently would be for a foreign government to want you deported for any reason whatsoever. And with US citizens, you have to pay taxes regardless of whether or not you are outside the country. You could go to jail for years if the US government got their hands on you.

It'd basically ensure you'd be living the rest of your life on the semi-run.

I've got a couple of American friends living in the UK avoiding student loans. It's not like being on the run, they both regularly visit the U.S. with no problems. It just means they can't work in the U.S.

In both of their cases, they're $150k+ in debt thanks to grad school. Adding on interest thats 5-10 years of their life their lifestyle would suffer massively paying that back. Even worse, the repayments hit you hardest in the years when you earn the least and want to maximise the fun you have with your money - your youth.

It makes perfect sense to decide not to pay that. Instead, they're working in pretty much the exact same white collar jobs they'd be doing in the U.S., with much more disposable income thanks to no debt repayments, in a country that speaks English, and are pretty much equi-distant from their East Coast families as if they lived in California.

Starting off your post-college life in your 20s with basically a mortgage, with no house to show for it, is madness. I'm really surprised more Americans don't just emigrate and ditch the loans. If there was more of a culture of youth emigration in the U.S. (as you find in Australia, Ireland, NZ etc) I think it would be far more common.

It might help reduce fees too, if universities realised people were more likely to default because they're so excessive. Someone with 20k in debt is unlikely to permanently emigrate to avoid it, someone with 200k in debt is a hell of a lot more likely to do so.