Post: #1

I was in my living room yesterday reading Thirty Seven when my sister came up to me and asked "What are reading?"

I responded with "A book on wisdom." What I really wanted to say was a book masculinity and wisdom.

It made me think for half a day to think why I didn't openly express my desire to learn more about masculinity. So I came to two hypothesis.

1) If we study masculinity, we must be lacking in it. To some sense there is a bit of truth. But it also pitches the idea as being a dichotomy (To masculinity or not) rather than something you scale out(I am learning and practicing these virtues of masculinity but some I am have yet to learn or practice).

2) Masculinity is something to be ridiculed by the masses. If you think about it, most public figures today are either clowns or mouth pieces. If you ever saw something like BroScienceLife, they are ridiculing the body builder stereotype. If your ever watch movies, we write out intellects as nerds awkwardly building their knowledge while distancing themselves from the reality of the world. I am sure I could expand on it but you kind of get the point.

How do you guys deal with those problems of expressing your masculinity openly and publicly?

Post: #2

(07-21-2015 02:51 PM)PolymathGuru Wrote:  I was in my living room yesterday reading Thirty Seven when my sister came up to me and asked "What are reading?"

I responded with "A book on wisdom." What I really wanted to say was a book masculinity and wisdom.

It made me think for half a day to think why I didn't openly express my desire to learn more about masculinity. So I came to two hypothesis.

1) If we study masculinity, we must be lacking in it. To some sense there is a bit of truth. But it also pitches the idea as being a dichotomy (To masculinity or not) rather than something you scale out(I am learning and practicing these virtues of masculinity but some I am have yet to learn or practice).

2) Masculinity is something to be ridiculed by the masses. If you think about it, most public figures today are either clowns or mouth pieces. If you ever saw something like BroScienceLife, they are ridiculing the body builder stereotype. If your ever watch movies, we write out intellects as nerds awkwardly building their knowledge while distancing themselves from the reality of the world. I am sure I could expand on it but you kind of get the point.

How do you guys deal with those problems of expressing your masculinity openly and publicly?

Great question. I wouldn't personally advise discussing it openly with anyone who is not already fundamentally masculine themselves. No good can come from talking to women, or weak men, about masculinity. They are highly unlikely to have anything constructive, or more importantly informed, to say on the subject. Most people, men and women, lack the ability to discuss dispassionately things that may be seen as virtues, which they either do not possess or are fundamentally beyond them. It holds too uncomfortable-a-mirror up to their own shortcomings, and any discussion will largely be informed by their prejudices.

I would build relationships with men who you feel embody a strong sense of masculinity, either online, or preferably in person. I would also continue to study, and search out opportunities to display your masculinity TO YOURSELF. That way you will become congruent with projecting a more masculine persona - essentially, if you do things that force you to be brave, and recognise yourself as such, then you will become more 'based' and genuinely masculine - it will not be an affectation. Fundamentally, you shouldn't need to 'express it openly and publicly', you should embody it and ooze it from every pore. Study masculine men and their mannerisms, read good work about real men, and search out opportunities to embody the masculinity you want to develop and make it a part of who you are.

Post: #3

(07-21-2015 02:51 PM)PolymathGuru Wrote:  I was in my living room yesterday reading Thirty Seven when my sister came up to me and asked "What are reading?"

I responded with "A book on wisdom." What I really wanted to say was a book masculinity and wisdom.

I thought your answer was perfect. 4 words - laconic is masculine. Indirect - don't give direct answer to girls, even if it is your sister.

Like H1N1 said, focus on obtaining masculinity but don't worry about talking about it with people that won't get it.

Post: #4

If you are reading, you are still learning. You don't express your strategy in preseason and from the sounds of it is where you are. If you are trying to be something, you gain nothing by talking about it with someone who doesnt support your cause. As that OG said, "don't talk about it, be about it." Your sister 98/100 times isn't your ally so don't involve in her your plans.

You express your masculinity through your actions. That is what you are preparing for; to be a man of action. Conversations with your sister and the like got you to the point where you had to read books on masculinity because it was so lacking so please don't consult them.

You don't stop the elevator ride at every floor while you are going to the top asking for permission to each floor to rise above it, same in life. Start going up.

Post: #5

Quote:You express your masculinity through your actions. That is what you are preparing for; to be a man of action.

That's the core of it.
Anyway is the book a good read, I already have an insight on Masculinity from The way of men written by Jack DONOVAN and it's really good.

Can you give us some quote or at least a condensed view of it.

Post: #6

(07-21-2015 02:51 PM)PolymathGuru Wrote:  1) If we study masculinity, we must be lacking in it. To some sense there is a bit of truth. But it also pitches the idea as being a dichotomy (To masculinity or not) rather than something you scale out(I am learning and practicing these virtues of masculinity but some I am have yet to learn or practice).

When do you ever think you aren't lacking in something?

There is always more to learn, more to know etc. People reread books because they find them interesting. You read something to get a new perspective.

If you ever assume to be complete in something you are only fooling yourself and setting a limit on how much you are capable of understanding.

Like birthday cat said, you don't have to answer. I would have replied "a book" or something of that matter.

Post: #7

Thanks for the input guys. It helps clears things out for me.

(07-21-2015 06:20 PM)blck Wrote:  

Quote:You express your masculinity through your actions. That is what you are preparing for; to be a man of action.

That's the core of it.
Anyway is the book a good read, I already have an insight on Masculinity from The way of men written by Jack DONOVAN and it's really good.

Can you give us some quote or at least a condensed view of it.

Thirty-Seven was written by Quintus Curtius. If you already like his work, like I do, then you should pick it up. The problem with giving a condensed summary of the book is that it is a collection of essays. So it does cover different themes. It is also non-sequential, so there is no order to reading it. I've only read 3 chapters so far. I'll list out the chapters titles for you if any of them are appealing. Note you may recognize some of the titles because he did use some of his articles from Return of Kings for the book but there are original essays in here.

1)Prologue
2)How should a wise man reveal his opinions
3)On barbarism
4)On Stoicism
5)On Myths
6)The fate of boethius
7)I am the isthmus
8)A program of education
9)The wisdom of Aristippus
10)revolt against the excess of revolt
11)The chant of the mystic
12)The reality of progress
13)The march of worldly wisdom
14)On how to distinguish a true friend from a false one
15)The value of sincerity
16)easter island's collapse
17)John Paul Jones
18)some guidance on foreign language learning
19)firing MacArthur
20)A great physician
21)Illusions and Delusions
22)How our enemies confer benefits on us
23)on pilgrimage
24)ascent into eternity
25)Clash of Steel and Wills: The story of the battle of lepanto
26)The Limits of Endurance
27)A man unique: Ernst Junger's Fire and Fury
28)The Lives of Great Men as Moral Instruction
29)Machivelli's Comic Side
30)Eight Films
31)A world cup lesson
32)The art of speaking and writing well
33)Foreign Language composition
34)Red Eminence: The Iron Will of Cardinal Richelieu
35)The Visionary war photography of Alexander Gardner
36)The Gap Between Theory and Practice
37) Epilogue

Post: #8

(07-23-2015 12:59 AM)PolymathGuru Wrote:  Thanks for the input guys. It helps clears things out for me.

(07-21-2015 06:20 PM)blck Wrote:  

Quote:You express your masculinity through your actions. That is what you are preparing for; to be a man of action.

That's the core of it.
Anyway is the book a good read, I already have an insight on Masculinity from The way of men written by Jack DONOVAN and it's really good.

Can you give us some quote or at least a condensed view of it.

Thirty-Seven was written by Quintus Curtius. If you already like his work, like I do, then you should pick it up. The problem with giving a condensed summary of the book is that it is a collection of essays. So it does cover different themes. It is also non-sequential, so there is no order to reading it. I've only read 3 chapters so far. I'll list out the chapters titles for you if any of them are appealing. Note you may recognize some of the titles because he did use some of his articles from Return of Kings for the book but there are original essays in here.

1)Prologue
2)How should a wise man reveal his opinions
3)On barbarism
4)On Stoicism
5)On Myths
6)The fate of boethius
7)I am the isthmus
8)A program of education
9)The wisdom of Aristippus
10)revolt against the excess of revolt
11)The chant of the mystic
12)The reality of progress
13)The march of worldly wisdom
14)On how to distinguish a true friend from a false one
15)The value of sincerity
16)easter island's collapse
17)John Paul Jones
18)some guidance on foreign language learning
19)firing MacArthur
20)A great physician
21)Illusions and Delusions
22)How our enemies confer benefits on us
23)on pilgrimage
24)ascent into eternity
25)Clash of Steel and Wills: The story of the battle of lepanto
26)The Limits of Endurance
27)A man unique: Ernst Junger's Fire and Fury
28)The Lives of Great Men as Moral Instruction
29)Machivelli's Comic Side
30)Eight Films
31)A world cup lesson
32)The art of speaking and writing well
33)Foreign Language composition
34)Red Eminence: The Iron Will of Cardinal Richelieu
35)The Visionary war photography of Alexander Gardner
36)The Gap Between Theory and Practice
37) Epilogue

Thanks for takin the time to write that out. Not knowing the author I did a quick google search and got excited about possibly some Roman dude having written about things possibly beyond his time.

And then I refined my search and saw it was a ROK poster dude. Slightly less excited but still quite curious about this book. I'll see if there if I can't find it on Amazon or something.

Post: #9

Interesting topic, being a man of action is the best way to 'study' masculinity. The more experience you gain in the life, the more you come to terms with being true to yourself in the most simplest way. 'What are my weaknesses, what are my strengths, how is the best way for me to overcome them ?'.

Its a hard pill to swallow but you have to actually be incredibly selfish in a lot of ways. Focusing on your own self improvement and trying to be the strongest version of yourself. Paradoxically in the long run this will help those who are around you. Either because you have a strong magnetic energy that inspires those close to you. Or you literally are in a better position to support those who you love or care for.

For those who are more introvert and live in their head, I suggest reading books like 'The Book of Pook'. and other such material like the 'Alchemist" by Paulo Cohello. They are fantastic books to really get you started and grasp ideas that you can practically implicate.

Post: #10

(07-21-2015 02:51 PM)PolymathGuru Wrote:  RE: How to be unapologetic of being masculine and learning masculinity?

Don't apologize.

Quote:I was in my living room yesterday reading Thirty Seven when my sister came up to me and asked "What are reading?"

I responded with "A book on wisdom." What I really wanted to say was a book masculinity and wisdom.

Just say it, then. There's nothing wrong with reading about masculinity. At least you've observed your hesitancy though.

I admit there were times when I hid reading books about beign better in bed or picking up chicks. Eventually I said fuck it and just stuck them out on my bookshelf. They ended up making interesting topics for conversation.

But masculinity? I can't really see any reason to hide reading about it.

Quote:1) If we study masculinity, we must be lacking in it. To some sense there is a bit of truth. But it also pitches the idea as being a dichotomy (To masculinity or not) rather than something you scale out(I am learning and practicing these virtues of masculinity but some I am have yet to learn or practice).

There may be a bit of truth to that. But I don't think it's the full picture.

To study masculinity you simply must be an intellectual.

After all, what could be of more interest to a man than his own masculinity? Even the Greek philosophers discussed it often, I believe. If not directly than in other terms.

If someone chastizes a man for reading about masculinity they themselves ought to be chastized.

Quote:2) Masculinity is something to be ridiculed by the masses. If you think about it, most public figures today are either clowns or mouth pieces. If you ever saw something like BroScienceLife, they are ridiculing the body builder stereotype. If your ever watch movies, we write out intellects as nerds awkwardly building their knowledge while distancing themselves from the reality of the world. I am sure I could expand on it but you kind of get the point.

Yeah, it is often ridiculed. But to be fair the masculine caricatures that are ridiculed are generally very extreme and one-dimensional (like the bros). And it can be kind of funny.

Go to the gym and observe some of the bodybuilder types you used as an example, for instance, and it's difficult not to poke fun at some of them.

I still see masculine men all around me that are not all ridiculed. I think balance is always a good thing. Guys who are balanced and unapologetically masculine without going overboard with it or being one-dimensional seem to be the ones that get the most ass.

Here's another thing. Who isn't ridiculed in modern society? Turn on comedy central and have a look - everyone is fair game.

I'd be careful about getting too sensititve about this kind of thing because what we don't want is to encourage PC culture.

Quote:How do you guys deal with those problems of expressing your masculinity openly and publicly?

I don't feel I have too much of a problem with it. I guess there were times in the past when I hid my opinion or was apologetic about masculine tendencies, but I've grown past that.

I don't make it a point to be controversial but nor am I apologetic, and if someone (like my harcore feminist sister) tries to call me out on something I laugh and dismiss their opinion.

Maybe someday I'll take it on with debate but for now I'd rather just live my life than spend time arguing with people or being unapologetic. There are plenty of people in the world who will have no issue with you wanting to be masculine or wanting to read about masculinity - surround yourself with those people and don't spend more time with the other than you need to.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #11

I beg to differ.
From my experience you can explain what you are reading and also show masculine strength.

In a trip I took last month, was in a meetup and a girl asked me about negging.
I explained to her that if a lot of guys would hit on her, she would feel "very valuable" and would not let "lower perceived men" to approach her.
I told her that the idea behind the "reverse compliment" was to have an equal chance for a guy to introduce himself and have a conversation, which may lead to sex or relationship.

She understood and was not "angry for being misled" or something.
You can say the truth, but you might need to rephrase it.


Next time you can say what you are actualy reading. Stick to your position, do not engage in "fighting" and people will accept it.

Post: #12

This reminds me how one of my friends left his copy of The Rational Male in the bathroom and his sister found it, took a picture of it, texted it to him and actually said, "What the fuck is this shit?" Those exact words. He ended up telling her it was for a friend, and she said something like "Good!"

Thinking about it, how would that guy have reacted if he found a copy of Lindy West's book? Well, I think it's safe to say he wouldn't have dared gotten indignant about it. He'd probably just write it off. But that's just the place we're in now, as OP points out.

I think we study masculinity less to "learn" it, (although that's often the case because it's necessary to relearn it when it's been trained out of you and downplayed your whole life), and more to understand it and its place in our lives. How it helps, how it hurts, how it affects our interactions with men and women, etc. Personally, I try to be a man of action like the others have said, but we all have that person we base our actions off of. That person that guides us in the specifics of masculine action. It's not that I think we're copying the people, but we're using them as a guide to better hone in on our personal masculine inclinations. I say that because every man out there has masculine traits in them--you are born with masculinity. It can get drained from you, but we all have the traits of masculinity within us.

Specific to the example Op provided, I think it's important to just say what you're reading, and if an argument starts, let it start. Let her start it and ignore it. It's inconvenient but if you hide from what you're reading it isn't doing anyone any good. It's easier in the long run that people see masculinity as the norm it is.

Post: #13

Why wouldn't you want the operating manual for such a complex machine? Especially when you couldn't read enough books to fully understand the essence of the human experience and what it means to be a man.

If somebody wants to shit on you because you are trying to gather information that helps you to better understand your life then that person is fucking ignorant. A perfect scenario would be you having a group of friends all working towards some kind of enlightenment, but the reality is that most people couldn't give a fuck less about actually trying to understand this thing.

If I go over to a person's house male or female and they have self-help books sitting out I judge them on the intent they read the books with rather than the books themselves in most cases.

Post: #14

I am a big proponent of learning by doing and not just reading... even though I read a lot.

If you want to learn to be masculine then do something masculine like:

1. Join the military, learn the combat arms arts and sciences. Defend your country in combat.

2. Become a mercenary and sell your skills to the highest paying government contractors.

3. If you have athletic skills become an athlete and enjoy rock star access to poosy.

4. Live from the sea lobstering, fishing Georges Banks, crabbing Alaska and learn how powerful nature and the sea are and how resilient you have to be to survive and thrive.

5. Become a lumber jack or miner or FrackMaster and work among other skilled masculine men.

6. Apprentice with a great Hunting and Fishing guide and become one yourself selling the masculine experience to flat-landers and office fingered techie providers who dream masculine dreams but are locked into their wife, kids, jobs, mortgages etc etc and are willing to pay for 5 to 10 day masculine experiences.

7. Learn to deal in lands and mineral rights and learn to do deals with all of the cutthroats out there and after you have learned to be masculine - learn to put the fear of God into these cutthroats with just a glance.

8. Learn to build solar off grid homes with WTSHTF security for the coming Jeffersonian periodic Constitutional Revolution with your masculine skills and band together with other masculine men for common defense and support.

9. Learn stock and securities trading set up your own hedge fund and become Master of the World and be the guy who funds all the above guys.

10... Whatever else you can think of that I may have missed.