Post: #51

(03-16-2014 06:01 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  "Man up" and ignore diabetes! This is the level of discourse that occurs with mental illness among some overconfident amateurs who have no actual personal experience of. Dealing with hundreds of real life people with serious problems.

Listening to total amateurs about important issues like health can be dangerous.

This. ^^^

We're at the stage now where doctors can photograph the brain with something called fMRI, which can spot neurological problems and malfunctioning "emotional networks." So we can now "see" depression as a disease of the brain, not a matter of mood.

Depression should not be confused with the sadness we all feel from time to time -- or even the black moods we lapse into during bad times. Depression per se is a brain that's not working right -- a brain that interprets events, ideas, and words into being something they're not. A brain that sees "grey" where others see colors. A brain that won't let you understand (much less feel) what others could be happy about.

I'm surprised more people here didn't bring biology into this. Claiming it's psycho-somatic is just the type of non-scientific mumbo jumbo we complain about feminist blogs engaging in.

If you Google fMRI and depression, you will get a plethora of information. There are studies on how it causes cognitive impairment, which brain regions are overactive, and how the whole brain changes.

I Know Exactly's comparison with diabetes is spot-on. Just as we wouldn't dismiss the notion of getting an MRI to determine where a kidney stone is, we should not ignore how fMRI can spot a dysfunctional brain.

The concept of brain dysfunction, and not necessarily circumstance causing depression is an important one. It's why you have people like Kurt Cobain killing themselves but people with a fraction of his looks and talent whooping it up at happy hour each week and having normal family lives (we all know these types).

What makes this tricky is that you can have a predisposition to depression that gets triggered by circumstance or massive drug taking (i.e. Cobain and Nick Drake). But just think of that like a disease lying dormant -- sort of like how some of us are also prone to diabetes and can trigger that with poor diet...or how some women have the "breast cancer gene" and can bring that out with excessive smoking, drinking, and overeating.

If you want to make the argument that depression is Beta because the people that have it got a bad genetic lottery, fine. In that case, it's like obesity or having too big a nose, or any one of nature's drawbacks. But the actual suffering isn't Beta any more than an asthma attack or kidney stone is.

Post: #52

LeightonBlackstock:
Let's not crank easy answers on a topic as serious as this. I'm an engineer and I dare say my pay-to-hours-worked ratio beats out doctors/finance people/lawyer. I work a fulfilling job where my skills are key.

All kinds of work can be soul killing if it's not for you. That's the part you have to accept it's YOU that's hurting, it's not the universe out to get you. It's the opposite of the Jezebellian way to fix things - removing everything in your environment that "triggers" you. It won't make you any happier in the end, since you still need to fix YOU.

Post: #53

Vicious:

Actually your post has made me realise that my two entries on this thread are immature, unclear and written more for 'effect' than substance. Whilst that style is good for telling travel stories, I should have been more serious here.

First of all, you're correct to call me out on my cheap-shot engineering comment, especially if you have more experience than myself. I do have a lot of reasons behind my lack of faith in the Civil Engineering profession in Britain. But rather than disclose them I'll prevent de-railing the thread any further than I already have, as I understand this is about mental health, not my experiences of engineering.

There's actually only one word in your post that a really I disagree with: 'Jezebellian'. I think it's fair to suggest that this is a loaded term on this forum. If used in the incorrect place it merely quashes the opinion of the person it's thrown at first.

Whilst I understand that feminists/Jezebellians wish the world to change for THEM, rather than improving THEMSELVES. This is not what I'm suggesting (though I do understand that my post may make you think this).

Now, I don't wish to make an appeal to authority, but my original post sounded like I was talking off the back of three weeks experience of 'being sad' at the end of university, so I'll clarify.

In truth, I have bipolar disorder. (DISCLAIMER: I don't like admitting this. It triggers a disapproving flicker in people's eyes, and they think 'ah, this guy is a weirdo who makes shit up all the time'. Bipolar only affects mood. Whilst I consider myself an odd character, it is my mood which is temperamental, not my mind ).

Bipolar's an interesting one. Robbie Williams states how one minute he can sing to 100,000 people at Knebworth, and the next he'll be buried under a duvet in his bed for hours.

That's what it's like. Even now, I can hit Bangkok HARD four nights in a row and survive off four hours sleep each night. Then maybe one day I'll have no drive to even leave my bed for 24 hours on a day off and I'll ignore everyone who's trying to contact me for a week because I can't be bothered. (The down bits happen way less than they did before)

Through personal experience, I've found that mental serenity is a function of environment. It's like being a cold-blooded mammal, you need a 'hot' country.

Changing your environment and lifestyle is important for mental well-being. I advocate people to remove any dead-weight persons from their life (for me: old friends and family), change their job (if they don't like it) and move to somewhere they feel a connection.

To elaborate on the last one: this could be a simple as changing to a nice, quiet village twenty miles down the road, or as 'dramatic' as jumping ship to a different continent.

I've always felt a better well-being in an overbearing metropolis, with glorious sunlight and overpowering humidity. It will be different for some, but a move to Asia helped relax my mind (I can't walk around without smiling here)

Additional personal changes can help too. Many speak of the benefits of a regular work-out. I took up meditation personally, but I won't bore people with my hippy-like activities.

Now, these changes depend on the person. It is up to the person to change themselves. It is not up to world to accommodate them. One must remove things from their environment that trigger negativity, and to do that requires great action from the person.

My sister suffers with depression too, but unlike myself she expects the environment to change with no action on her part. Whilst her brother is happy, she's been out of work for seven years and lives in a room in my parents house with her baby son. She's been necking anti-depressants for years, and I've not seen any major benefit. (That's not an appeal to emotion anyone is more welcome to comment on this in whatever way they wish)

Whist It's INCREDIBLY difficult for a depressed person to fight off the shackles of intertia and make these changes, that is what will ultimately help them.

Post: #54

I have written about depression before.

It is easier to just link to this thread - pay particular note to the two nybooks.com articles I link to. It gives an excellent overview of a lot of what is wrong with psychiatry today.

/thread-23846.html

Post: #55

As for engineering - good luck to those who can do it. I am not sure if there are the same level of jobs for engineers in the UK as there are in other countries.

But it does not matter to me since I have never hated anything so much as picking up an engineering textbook. God I hated those engineering lectures...

Post: #56

LeightonBlackstock, the second paragraph was not directed at you but a general comment on the topic so you don't have to feel bit by it.

Post: #57

(03-18-2014 05:27 PM)Vicious Wrote:  LeightonBlackstock, the second paragraph was not directed at you but a general comment on the topic so you don't have to feel bit by it.

Vicious, whilst I did think your post was aimed at me, I didn't take offence at all so it's no problem.

I think my original two posts were pretty rubbish so the intention of my third post was much more for clarification rather than a response to you personally

Either way, keep on trucking

In an attempt to steer this back on topic:

Depression is beta: discuss below:

Post: #58

From what I've seen, depression occurs when there is a gap between expectations and reality. Ironically this is the same foundation for comedy. The "masks of tradgedy and comedy" is a great symbol which I think shows this truth.

So, how to stop wearing the mask of tradgedy?

Letting go of our demand that life be a certain way (expectations) would seem to be the remedy. The Buddahist's refer to this as "letting go of attachment". If one takes an inventory of themselves they will find they have a lot of attachments. Not just to material possessions, but to people and most importantly....world-views. Attachments are what cause suffereing, when the gap between it and reality rears it's ugly head.

Post: #59

I subscribe to a MGTOW mindset (there is a long thread on the topic where I share my thoughts on MGTOW - I can dig out the link if you want).

And to me - MGTOW - is quite a Buddhist mindset in many ways. Which is interesting - since as you hinted above - it may explain why I consider myself immune from depression. I would bet I am no more likely to become depressed in my life, as I am to suddenly become gay.

Here is a quote that I recently came across:

"If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it."

Also - not jerking off and vigorous exercise have profound effects on my mood. So - if somebody is looking to shake themselves out out of a thought pattern - it might be worth experimenting with those two options.

Post: #60

Went though some depression recently, went through divorce, lost daily contact with my kids, lost a 1M house, pay over $3500 per month Alimony, lost my driving license driving a Porsche to fast, and then lost my job, also lost contact with my family......so yeh that's enough to depress anyone, but I decided to give up drink, and social drugs get healthy ...the way I look at it hey things can only get better.

Last thing I want to do is rely on some antidepressant drug some shrink prescribed. My old man said once that you see the oldies who have this stuff then there mixing it with drink etc . ..."well they don't last very long".


But there is a natural remedy that helps out and it really mellows you out pop one every 3 days or so when you feel the urge, you can get it at any vitamin store. i.e.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypericum_perforatum

They helped me ..so if your going through some tough times, this modern world is tough sometimes ...try this it may help.

And a good shag always helps too!!

Post: #61

That's some very bad stuff you went through. Not to take away from that, but when I feel unfortunate I remember my cousin who was diagnosed with Lukemia at 34 yrs old. He had a good wife and new born baby boy. He fought for his life. He went through so much chemo, stem cell transplant, and surgeries for other parts of his body that would suffer because he had cancer. He spent most of the following 2+ years in the hospital or bed-ridden. Eventually, after the stem cell operation he got better, than just as quickly he got worse and abruptly died. He was a great man, and I use him to remind myself that no matter how bad things are, it could be a lot worse and is for a lot of people.

Post: #62

I hesitate to post this, but I think if it helps one person...


Let me give you a basic run down of my life leading up to my recent struggles with depression.

First and foremost, I grew up in a cult. Not keep-a-goat-in-the-front-yard type of cult, but the Christian-sect church I grew up in made the sociology papers and books. We didn't adhere to the vast majority of Christian traditions for one reason or another, so I was always a bit of an outsider growing up. It just so happens that the leader died when I was 13 and the church disbanded. I had a number of things drilled into my head, including ideals regarding women, from an early age. These things never disappeared with the church, but stuck in the back of my head as I continued to have no religious guidance through my formative years.

I continued on with life with no success with women through high school. I was too timid to ever get anywhere, and besides, I was always putting it on the pedestal. College was different, though I never partied much or had huge success with women, I managed to mellow out quite a bit and come out of my shell. I purposefully pushed myself after being introduced to game by a friend. I believe it was heartiste I liked to read the most.

After college, I went to get a professional degree. During this time I was still putting women on a pedestal, but I was more and more disillusioned. Instead of fixing myself, I continued to push on with my studies. It was a very stressful time in my life due to the difficulties of the work.

Sometime during this time, the economy collapsed. What was a secure job after graduation quickly disappeared as the money wasn't there. They had space for one person, and a coworker/former best friend quickly stabbed me in the back for it. I walked in one day to the secretaries gossiping about my "huge drug problem." Never tried drugs my entire life, never intend to.

Stressed by the economy, my women troubles, losing my best friend, student loan debt and losing my job (with no other prospects willing to send me as much as a rejection letter), I finally lost it. I spent the next six months on my parent's couch sleeping approximately 18 hours a day and spending the other 6 thinking about killing myself. It was an absolutely terrible time in my life. It wasn't just the thoughts of inadequacy, the feeling that my life was out of control or the inability to plan for the future, it was the "brain fog" which really stopped me from pushing forward. I couldn't form full thoughts, lost track of things easily and had little ability to control my emotions. I tried to talk to this with my parents, but they dismissed everything which made me feel even worse. I also never mentioned any of this to any medical providers for fear that I would be blacklisted from employment.

I did occasionally try and by chance I happened to go to a wedding where I ran into some people and did some networking. Their company was the number one in the state for a particular market. They liked me, and I had an interview set up. It was actually in my wheelhouse. I did well at the interview and had a job offer the next week. I accepted it. Things were finally starting to look up.

My mood improved and I was able to get through every day, though I was much more susceptible to stress than I used to be. Then, about six months in... the company collapsed and I lost my job. Around 1200 or so people. We made all the newspapers and all the tv shows. I became depressed again. It wasn't as severe this time. I didn't spend all day on the couch, but I felt hopeless and the brain fog returned. It took me almost a full year after that before I could find any comparable employment.

I ended up at a very small company. It was a 5 person operation. As it turns out, the owner suffered from anxiety/depression. I actually watched him cry a few times and on one occasion he threatened to kill himself. It was a pretty toxic environment for me, actually. One of his main employees was the biggest cunt I've ever met. I lasted a year. Part of it was my fault, part of it was the company's fault. I didn't adjust well to the environment and I wasn't making enough money for him to justify keeping me on. I'd like to say there are no hard feelings... but I would be lying. He tossed me under the bus a few times when he knew he was already getting rid of me.

Right now? Right now I'm more or less on my own. I freelance and keep my eyes open for any opportunities. I feel a lot better, though I still have my down days from time to time.

Here are a few things that have helped me:

Accepting that I am 100% responsible for where I am in life. It's true that I cannot control external events, but I can mitigate their damages and manage my emotional responses. The sky isn't falling.

Controlling emotional spiraling. Emotional spiraling was a problem for me. Emotional spiraling is when something happens and you imagine an increasingly devastating chain of events that spawn from that event. Now I know to recognize it and stop things before they get out of hand.

There is no such thing as "deserve." It's just a word, not a command on reality. Just because I do the "right" thing, doesn't mean that my desired effect will occur. It might, it might not.

Zinc.

Working out. I'm not as good as I should be, but it is a great stress reliever and gives you a goal to work for.

Keeping myself to a regular sleep schedule.

Moderating Caffeine intake (this is actually bigger than you think).

Tension Tamer tea has helped, as has Chamomile Tea.

The support of another person who has gone through something similar.


Am I better? No. Not completely. The thing with neuroplasticity is that once you go down a certain road, your brain strengthens certain connections. I'm now more susceptible to depression because of my past. At one point recently, I saw a mental health professional, and while I was not prescribed drugs it did help for a while. Having a neutral third party to dump everything onto is amazing.

I'm not where I want to be in life right now in any aspect, but I'm crawling. Someday I'll be walking and someday I'll be sprinting forward.

Now, I know the OP was trolling regarding depression being Beta, but here is my take:

Depression can occur from blue-pill decision making and blue pill thinking. That's what happened in my case. I made blue pill decisions which led to blue pill consequences that my blue pill brain wasn't able to handle. However, there are some people out there making very Alpha choices who happen to have anxiety/depression issues. This has been acknowledged in the start-up community only recently and I suspect that there are other areas of Alphas who won't acknowledge depression/anxiety because of social stigma.


*One additional thing of note, during this time I was given a strong antibiotic to fight an infection and I have recently discovered that it has caused depression in some users. I can't rule this out from affecting me, though given the sequence of events I went through I think it may have only contributed to any issues I had.*

Post: #63

(03-18-2014 06:21 AM)LeightonBlackstock Wrote:  Now, these changes depend on the person. It is up to the person to change themselves. It is not up to world to accommodate them. One must remove things from their environment that trigger negativity, and to do that requires great action from the person.

My sister suffers with depression too, but unlike myself she expects the environment to change with no action on her part. Whilst her brother is happy, she's been out of work for seven years and lives in a room in my parents house with her baby son. She's been necking anti-depressants for years, and I've not seen any major benefit. (That's not an appeal to emotion anyone is more welcome to comment on this in whatever way they wish)

Whist It's INCREDIBLY difficult for a depressed person to fight off the shackles of intertia and make these changes, that is what will ultimately help them.

my girlfriend is a type 2 bipolar(major depression-hypomania).

If you can I'd like some advice on this. She's a good one to have around when she's in a normal state. she gives me anything I want; threesomes, cash, fun, food, actually a funny chick, like fine arts, can cook well and even helped me finish a major school project. Overall she has great character. During the winter months she's inconsolable and for all purposes a burden on my life. I thought abut breaking it off many times, but I honestly wondered if she would kill herself shortly after. The depression is extreme and her family support structure is weak. Dad died a while back, siblings unsupportive, mom is a workaholic.

I told her about the inertia thing but she didn't seem to understand it. Can you please help me by stating that another way? I don't know if I can tolerate the cycles for the rest of my life, but I'd like to see a genuinely warm hearted person survive this disease.

(03-19-2014 11:15 AM)Onto Wrote:  From what I've seen, depression occurs when there is a gap between expectations and reality. Ironically this is the same foundation for comedy. The "masks of tradgedy and comedy" is a great symbol which I think shows this truth.

So, how to stop wearing the mask of tradgedy?

Letting go of our demand that life be a certain way (expectations) would seem to be the remedy. The Buddahist's refer to this as "letting go of attachment". If one takes an inventory of themselves they will find they have a lot of attachments. Not just to material possessions, but to people and most importantly....world-views. Attachments are what cause suffereing, when the gap between it and reality rears it's ugly head.

I wonder if this ideology would be helpful. It seems to have merit

Post: #64

(03-20-2014 12:15 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 11:15 AM)Onto Wrote:  From what I've seen, depression occurs when there is a gap between expectations and reality. Ironically this is the same foundation for comedy. The "masks of tradgedy and comedy" is a great symbol which I think shows this truth.

So, how to stop wearing the mask of tradgedy?

Letting go of our demand that life be a certain way (expectations) would seem to be the remedy. The Buddahist's refer to this as "letting go of attachment". If one takes an inventory of themselves they will find they have a lot of attachments. Not just to material possessions, but to people and most importantly....world-views. Attachments are what cause suffereing, when the gap between it and reality rears it's ugly head.

I wonder if this ideology would be helpful. It seems to have merit

Yeah, it's defifnately worth a try. I think the way to go about it would be for you to become a really good listener. A good listener doesn't give solutions. They don't try to "fix" the chaos of emotions, though we men desperately want to.

If you were able to be a good listener and be really present to her, sympathize with her feelings...that would do her a lot of good I think.

If you get good at that and want to take it further you could begin asking her questions about what she's depressed about. When she gives an answer you could ask her something like:

"Why do you think it's that way?"

She'll say something, and then you can probe a little further with another question based on her answer, all the while bieng a good listener and not giving advice or saying how things are or should be.

I wouldn't go deeper than 2, maybe 3 levels of questioning. If you see her getting agitated at any point, you back off and drop the whole thing.

The goal is not just to see how there is a gap between her expectation and reality, but for her (and you) to see how her expectation is really founded on a contradiction. If you are able to notice the contradiction you could say someting like. "Ok, I'm a little confused, I think you're saying this, but a few moments ago you were saying that. Which is it again?" or "How is that going to be work again?"

For example: A girl is crying about how she can't find a stable and committed guy. She's dated just about every guy in the Hell's Angels gang and she can't get any of them to settle down!

She wants an adventurous, fun-loving guy who's grounded, stable, financially secure and not boring. There's a contradiction at play here.
You can't just say this directly though, you have to ask her questions so she will see it. You'll know it when you see the expression in her face as the lightbulb of awareness goes on.

The truth is much of our expectations are a mission impossible because to really have it would be like bieng able to drive down the road and take a Left and Right turn at the same time. You can swerve from one extreme to the other but you can't have both directions at once.

Read a few online dating profiles and you'll see how girls are always demanding contradictory attributes or things from life. We men do it too.

That all said, weather does have an affect on people. I don't like bieng hot, and when that happens I get angry. A long winter is depressing. Maybe move to warmer climate?

Post: #65

(03-20-2014 03:49 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:15 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 11:15 AM)Onto Wrote:  From what I've seen, depression occurs when there is a gap between expectations and reality. Ironically this is the same foundation for comedy. The "masks of tradgedy and comedy" is a great symbol which I think shows this truth.

So, how to stop wearing the mask of tradgedy?

Letting go of our demand that life be a certain way (expectations) would seem to be the remedy. The Buddahist's refer to this as "letting go of attachment". If one takes an inventory of themselves they will find they have a lot of attachments. Not just to material possessions, but to people and most importantly....world-views. Attachments are what cause suffereing, when the gap between it and reality rears it's ugly head.

I wonder if this ideology would be helpful. It seems to have merit

Yeah, it's defifnately worth a try. I think the way to go about it would be for you to become a really good listener. A good listener doesn't give solutions. They don't try to "fix" the chaos of emotions, though we men desperately want to.

If you were able to be a good listener and be really present to her, sympathize with her feelings...that would do her a lot of good I think.

If you get good at that and want to take it further you could begin asking her questions about what she's depressed about. When she gives an answer you could ask her something like:

"Why do you think it's that way?"

She'll say something, and then you can probe a little further with another question based on her answer, all the while bieng a good listener and not giving advice or saying how things are or should be.

I wouldn't go deeper than 2, maybe 3 levels of questioning. If you see her getting agitated at any point, you back off and drop the whole thing.

The goal is not just to see how there is a gap between her expectation and reality, but for her (and you) to see how her expectation is really founded on a contradiction. If you are able to notice the contradiction you could say someting like. "Ok, I'm a little confused, I think you're saying this, but a few moments ago you were saying that. Which is it again?" or "How is that going to be work again?"

For example: A girl is crying about how she can't find a stable and committed guy. She's dated just about every guy in the Hell's Angels gang and she can't get any of them to settle down!

She wants an adventurous, fun-loving guy who's grounded, stable, financially secure and not boring. There's a contradiction at play here.
You can't just say this directly though, you have to ask her questions so she will see it. You'll know it when you see the expression in her face as the lightbulb of awareness goes on.

The truth is much of our expectations are a mission impossible because to really have it would be like bieng able to drive down the road and take a Left and Right turn at the same time. You can swerve from one extreme to the other but you can't have both directions at once.

Read a few online dating profiles and you'll see how girls are always demanding contradictory attributes or things from life. We men do it too.

That all said, weather does have an affect on people. I don't like bieng hot, and when that happens I get angry. A long winter is depressing. Maybe move to warmer climate?

it's really funny that you say that about the climate, because she's mentioned that before.

i usually try a few of those techniques you mentioned on a frequent basis. you gave solid advice because it works.

unfortunately, it also makes her end up a lot more dependent on me because i have "so many good answers" to everything going on with her. again, she's a great girl, but the suffocation via neediness is too much when im bogged down in nearly a maxed out college course load. thank good the weather is warmer so now i can focus on school.

your example may have helped me find the solution though. check this out:
-she's upset because her mom isn't the kind of supportive/talker mom that she hopes she would be(never will happen in my opinion).
-has the capacity for independence but not yet aware of it
-strong ties to tradition church. personal beliefs leave her in mental conflict, yet she is adamant about being a good Christian( i know will be funny to a lot of people)

if i can get her to make the connections on those things on her own, maybe she can find her equilibrium and independence. thanks