Post: #1

I lost out on a finance managerial job because the Systems IT team (who I would have worked alongside) felt that I was too intimidating, in their opinion:

• I acted like I owned the room, I basically kicked back in the chair and relaxed during the whole interview
• They thought I was technically strong, but I was too confident
• They felt that I looked down on them. I never said anything derogatory to them, but they didn’t like my body language
• They felt I was too ambitious – one guy wondered why I wasn’t happy to continue working at my current level instead of a higher position.
  

This is probably the lamest excuse I’ve ever had for being turned down for a job. Even the recruiting agent thought it was bullshit, but she said I’m better off not working alongside these people. My brother said that if they talk that much shit about me in the interview process, then they would be ten times worse if I worked there – they may try to backstab me.

Has anybody else had a similar experience? I guess knowing your shit and being confident scares the shit of out IT nerds and faggot office workers.

Post: #2

In a different line of work, I have felt this. It's pure jealousy. I have gotten this for doing things as simple as wearing a nice looking suit and tie when everyone else dressed down. People are just very jealous and want to tear you down.

Post: #3

Nothing wrong with being competent, capable and confident.

But if you couldn't show a measure of humility during an interview, you can't really wonder why you didn't get the job.

Back in the day, MBAs got told a couple of things about mixing in with a culture. One was to listen more and not come in guns blazing.

Work culture at a particular company is something that needs to be understood. We have all been at companies where it is a dumpster fire, we all have witnessed stupid stuff. Most people are stupid, most people buy into that culture, most people are insecure, focused on the wrong things. A lot of the guys here are not like that, those are the same guys who are trying to find their way into location independent jobs.

But even if the culture is fucked up, unless you are specifically hired to shake the culture up, of course you will be evaluated on whether or not you would fit in with that culture.

I know everyone wants to be a badass or come off like one, but humility isn't a bad thing in an interview. The interview is the time to make the best impression you can, if you made a bad one at the interview and that was supposed to be the best you, I imagine they had no interest in the normal you that they would be working with. Seems logical, right?

Just means this job isn't right for you, means there is something better out there for you. Good luck on the job search!

Post: #4

(07-08-2015 01:15 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  I lost out on a finance managerial job because the Systems IT team (who I would have worked alongside) felt that I was too intimidating, in their opinion:

• I acted like I owned the room, I basically kicked back in the chair and relaxed during the whole interview
• They thought I was technically strong, but I was too confident
• They felt that I looked down on them. I never said anything derogatory to them, but they didn’t like my body language
• They felt I was too ambitious – one guy wondered why I wasn’t happy to continue working at my current level instead of a higher position.
  

This is probably the lamest excuse I’ve ever had for being turned down for a job. Even the recruiting agent thought it was bullshit, but she said I’m better off not working alongside these people. My brother said that if they talk that much shit about me in the interview process, then they would be ten times worse if I worked there – they may try to backstab me.

Has anybody else had a similar experience? I guess knowing your shit and being confident scares the shit of out IT nerds and faggot office workers.

Yeah man, I had similar thoughts in the past.

It never happened to me that someone outright said such things to me, but I have been suspecting that people have turned me down for jobs for similar reasons.

I think there are many people - especially in an office environment - who feel threatened if someone is not a pussy like them and instead acts confident and is ambitious. They simply don't want to have such a person around. That can really be a problem. On one hand you want to have a job, on the other hand you don't want to suppress your "alpha frame". I guess the solution is just to find a place where one fits in with the culture and the vibe. That can be quite hard though. I sometimes even envy people who work in construction or as tattoo artist or the like, because these environments are pretty macho and un-PC. But at the same time these jobs also tend to be pretty shitty and not very well paid. So that's not a solution either.

Post: #5

(07-08-2015 01:24 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  Nothing wrong with being competent, capable and confident.

But if you couldn't show a measure of humility during an interview, you can't really wonder why you didn't get the job.

Back in the day, MBAs got told a couple of things about mixing in with a culture. One was to listen more and not come in guns blazing.

Work culture at a particular company is something that needs to be understood. We have all been at companies where it is a dumpster fire, we all have witnessed stupid stuff. Most people are stupid, most people buy into that culture, most people are insecure, focused on the wrong things. A lot of the guys here are not like that, those are the same guys who are trying to find their way into location independent jobs.

But even if the culture is fucked up, unless you are specifically hired to shake the culture up, of course you will be evaluated on whether or not you would fit in with that culture.

I know everyone wants to be a badass or come off like one, but humility isn't a bad thing in an interview. The interview is the time to make the best impression you can, if you made a bad one at the interview and that was supposed to be the best you, I imagine they had no interest in the normal you that they would be working with. Seems logical, right?

Just means this job isn't right for you, means there is something better out there for you. Good luck on the job search!

I’m actually a very humble and approachable person. I don’t act like my shit doesn’t stink at all at work.

They didn’t get the real me in the interview – another observation was that they felt that I should be more laid back. I’m one of the most chilled out people in my office. Just the other day one of my colleagues joked in a team meeting how she’s never seen me stressed out at work.

I think another thing that scared the shit out of the IT team was that I had worked in IT myself before.

I know that a lot of IT people bullshit non technical people with deadlines and they may have thought that they couldn’t get away with bullshitting me e.g. If an IT task takes a week, the IT guy will tell his client it takes 4 weeks and then do it in 2 weeks, and his client will think he did good work.

Post: #6

I think it in a corporate environment, no matter how whatever you think you are, you must always be present and aware of the political environment you are in. I have seen stars get tossed easily. I have been tossed/kicked to the curb when I disrupted the work environment too much. The only way you get to be 100% you, is if you are on your own.

Never let arrogance/hubris make anyone think they are indispensable.

And none of us have the protection of being a woman which gets you some latitude.

Edit: In some way an agreement is made when you take a job, part of that agreement is being able to operate in that environment, unless once again, you were hired to break the culture. Maybe no one likes me saying that, but I do see it that way. You agree to the job, you agree to play by their rules. Which is why I don't work for anyone anymore.

Post: #7

(07-08-2015 01:15 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  I lost out on a finance managerial job because the Systems IT team (who I would have worked alongside) felt that I was too intimidating, in their opinion:

• I acted like I owned the room, I basically kicked back in the chair and relaxed during the whole interview
• They thought I was technically strong, but I was too confident
• They felt that I looked down on them. I never said anything derogatory to them, but they didn’t like my body language
• They felt I was too ambitious – one guy wondered why I wasn’t happy to continue working at my current level instead of a higher position.
  

This is probably the lamest excuse I’ve ever had for being turned down for a job. Even the recruiting agent thought it was bullshit, but she said I’m better off not working alongside these people. My brother said that if they talk that much shit about me in the interview process, then they would be ten times worse if I worked there – they may try to backstab me.

Has anybody else had a similar experience? I guess knowing your shit and being confident scares the shit of out IT nerds and faggot office workers.

Did you take that attitude into the interview room with you?

If so, I'm not surprised they said all that stuff.

Post: #8

What do you mean they didn't get the real you in the interview? Do you mean they didn't understand your personality or are you saying that you acted outside of your normal self?

Post: #9

(07-08-2015 02:16 PM)el conquistador Wrote:  Did you take that attitude into the interview room with you?

If so, I'm not surprised they said all that stuff.

No I didn’t have that attitude with me. I went in with an open mind. I’m saying that comment after the interview.

(07-08-2015 02:23 PM)Repo Wrote:  What do you mean they didn't get the real you in the interview? Do you mean they didn't understand your personality or are you saying that you acted outside of your normal self?

I guess they didn’t understand my personality. I get misread by people often. I tried to be my normal self but I did feel a lot more confident than usual.

Post: #10

(07-08-2015 01:42 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  I think it in a corporate environment, no matter how whatever you think you are, you must always be present and aware of the political environment you are in. I have seen stars get tossed easily. I have been tossed/kicked to the curb when I disrupted the work environment too much. The only way you get to be 100% you, is if you are on your own.

Never let arrogance/hubris make anyone think they are indispensable.

And none of us have the protection of being a woman which gets you some latitude.

Edit: In some way an agreement is made when you take a job, part of that agreement is being able to operate in that environment, unless once again, you were hired to break the culture. Maybe no one likes me saying that, but I do see it that way. You agree to the job, you agree to play by their rules. Which is why I don't work for anyone anymore.

100% Truth

Post: #11

(07-08-2015 01:15 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  I guess knowing your shit and being confident scares the shit of out IT nerds and faggot office workers.

I don't disagree that those are ridiculous and lame excuses by those people, but if you go in with this kind of mindset or attitude its not going to go well.

Part of being a masculine man is recognizing and adapting to different situations. Some subtle AMOGing can be a great tool in a situation like you were in, but you have to keep it within a certain range, especially if you know you are around introverted guys and women in a job interview type situation.

Its ok to make other guys and women feel threatened in most situations, but your task in that specific situation was to win them over with calm confidence, displaying your strength but making the nerds look up to you, admire your confidence- not feel threatened by you.

If those are the types that you'll be meeting, you can't be balls to the wall Alpha man, its just reality.

Edit- I saw your reply that you didn't go in with that attitude, noted.

Post: #12

(07-08-2015 01:42 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  I know that a lot of IT people bullshit non technical people with deadlines and they may have thought that they couldn’t get away with bullshitting me e.g. If an IT task takes a week, the IT guy will tell his client it takes 4 weeks and then do it in 2 weeks, and his client will think he did good work.

Well this makes sense on why you didn't get the job. I wouldn't of voted to work for a guy who came in and said we are going to work harder and faster.

Post: #13

(07-08-2015 01:42 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  I think it in a corporate environment, no matter how whatever you think you are, you must always be present and aware of the political environment you are in.

Edit: In some way an agreement is made when you take a job, part of that agreement is being able to operate in that environment. You agree to the job, you agree to play by their rules. Which is why I don't work for anyone anymore.

This is the takeaway, OP.

Post: #14

(07-08-2015 03:06 PM)Nord Wrote:  

(07-08-2015 01:42 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  I think it in a corporate environment, no matter how whatever you think you are, you must always be present and aware of the political environment you are in.

Edit: In some way an agreement is made when you take a job, part of that agreement is being able to operate in that environment. You agree to the job, you agree to play by their rules. Which is why I don't work for anyone anymore.

This is the takeaway, OP.

I have a huge grad school loan to pay so I need a monthly pay cheque to make the loan payments. I have to be very conservative in terms of career choices. I’m kind of fucked for the next few years until my loan goes away. If it wasn’t for the loan I may have been in Asia already.

I’ve had American colleagues tell me my personality is more of a fit for the East coast… they tell me people are more direct there and thicker skinned than southern Californians.

Post: #15

Clearly finance is getting soft. I've got friends who's interviews at Investment Banks (admittedly some time ago) where a non-stop stream of abuse and f this, f that. Their approach was that "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen".

Obviously I don't know you, but it is possible that they were "wrong" or massively overreacting. I once had a similar accusation leveled against me while in the job. Basically, accused of being "too aggressive". By female co-workers. The merriment that caused when telling the story to long time friends. I still tell the story, and people are incredulous since, to be honest, I'm more likely to be sent on assertiveness training than be accused of being too aggressive. But the accusation was leveled, and I was only too happy with it, since as far as I was concerned I could have done with being more aggressive. Didn't change my behavior one iota and, no, was not fired.

Post: #16

(07-08-2015 03:30 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  

(07-08-2015 03:06 PM)Nord Wrote:  

(07-08-2015 01:42 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  I think it in a corporate environment, no matter how whatever you think you are, you must always be present and aware of the political environment you are in.

Edit: In some way an agreement is made when you take a job, part of that agreement is being able to operate in that environment. You agree to the job, you agree to play by their rules. Which is why I don't work for anyone anymore.

This is the takeaway, OP.

I have a huge grad school loan to pay so I need a monthly pay cheque to make the loan payments. I have to be very conservative in terms of career choices. I’m kind of fucked for the next few years until my loan goes away. If it wasn’t for the loan I may have been in Asia already.

I’ve had American colleagues tell me my personality is more of a fit for the East coast… they tell me people are more direct there and thicker skinned than southern Californians.

In my experience there is some truth to what you're colleagues have said. Though I don't know if you have to leave, I think you'd be able to find something where you are, you seem intelligent.

Referring to the above, I wasn't suggesting the part about going out on your own (though that is the way to go if you can), I was emphasizing his point about being aware of the environment you are in and adjusting.

Post: #17

WalterBlack:
I didn't see this in any of your posts, but is it a really common occurrence for you to get rejected like this after a job interview, or was this the first/only time? If it happens frequently, you may want to do some research on job interviews and maybe even get some coaching in order to prevent this from happening in the future. I went to law school with a guy who I estimate did between one hundred and two hundred interviews during three years of law school and I doubt that he was ever offered any jobs, because if he were, what would be the point of constantly doing interviews for a period of years? The guy must have either threatened to kill the people who interviewed him or done indecent exposure at every interview. I don't think that guy ever practiced law and he has actually been arrested at least two or three times since law school.

If this isn't a regular occurrence for you, the people interviewing you were most likely the problem and I wouldn't worry too much about it. There could be any number of reasons, maybe they were intimidated, jealous or maybe they have a son your age who is a drug addict and/or is on gay porn every day and they needed to take it out on you. It's just like how some girls reject guys even though they are doing everything right.

Post: #18

(07-08-2015 03:43 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  Clearly finance is getting soft. I've got friends who's interviews at Investment Banks (admittedly some time ago) where a non-stop stream of abuse and f this, f that. Their approach was that "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen".

I’m in corporate finance, which tends to be more easy going than investment banking.

(07-08-2015 03:43 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  Obviously I don't know you, but it is possible that they were "wrong" or massively overreacting. I once had a similar accusation leveled against me while in the job. Basically, accused of being "too aggressive". By female co-workers. The merriment that caused when telling the story to long time friends. I still tell the story, and people are incredulous since, to be honest, I'm more likely to be sent on assertiveness training than be accused of being too aggressive. But the accusation was leveled, and I was only too happy with it, since as far as I was concerned I could have done with being more aggressive. Didn't change my behavior one iota and, no, was not fired.

I’ve had female managers lie to my face before. In my old job I handed a report to my boss. I basically handed it to her and said “Here’s your report”. In our weekly 1-1 I asked her if she had any issues with my demeanour and if I had committed any cultural faux pas with her - she said no. A few days later I had a meeting with my old boss at the same company. He said that the female boss had complained about the way I handed the report to her.

I tend to find that a lot of people in corporate America are two faced snivelling pussies who don’t say shit to your face and will go behind your back, even people very high up the food chain.

A couple of months ago I was invited to an “informal” coffee with the company Controller - this guy probably makes about $4M year. When we walked in he said. ”Feel free to say what you like. I’d like to hear opinions of people on the ground. This is totally informal”. I told him that the Shared Services team in India wasn’t very good and that most people didn’t use them or consider them competent. I asked him why they are there. He explained the history of the team in India.

A few days later I got called into my Director’s office. She said that the Controller was concerned about my knowledge about the India team and my confidence in their abilities. He thought I didn’t know what they do (I do know what they do, I deal with them almost daily). Apparently he emailed my SVP right after the meeting mentioning me and then he forwarded the email to the Director. Thankfully the Director took my side, I said it must have been a misunderstanding.

A few weeks ago, my department had a big meeting and the SVP said that the India team will be merged with another department in India because they were not being used enough.

Who let the controller know the India team were underperforming? Me. Who got fucked over? Me.

(07-08-2015 04:01 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  WalterBlack:
I didn't see this in any of your posts, but is it a really common occurrence for you to get rejected like this after a job interview, or was this the first/only time? If it happens frequently, you may want to do some research on job interviews and maybe even get some coaching in order to prevent this from happening in the future.
….
If this isn't a regular occurrence for you, the people interviewing you were most likely the problem and I wouldn't worry too much about it. There could be any number of reasons, maybe they were intimidated, jealous or maybe they have a son your age who is a drug addict and/or is on gay porn every day and they needed to take it out on you. It's just like how some girls reject guys even though they are doing everything right.

This is the first time anybody’s ever brought up my attitude in an interview. Normally if I get rejected it’s because I’m lacking in certain skills or experiences.

I interview very well normally and I have no nerves.

Post: #19

I suspect they have a case of small dick syndrome. Unless these guys have an equity stake in the company (and even then, if their dicks are small enough), they aren't actually concerned with hiring right or doing their jobs right. They only care about their personal comfort and their egos.

My recommendation would have been to really talk them up. I.e. have a list of "good things you guys have done", how it would be "great to join a team of your caliber", and how "you guys must have really really large penises and I'm jealous because mine is only tiny". This disarms you as a 'threat' and makes you a 'fan', so they think hiring you is a boost to their ego rather than a potential threat. I forget which law, but it's in the 48 laws book (or possibly the 'Strategies of War' book).

Post: #20

If I may suggest something. Work is a very political thing. And no matter how dialed in you are you will also be missing data and who connects to who. I have a great friend. Probably the smartest guy I have ever met. Is the clumsiest political operator. All he cares about is getting shit done and making the company better. Which sounds ideal but he has tripped many land mines in his career.

Keep your comments to yourself. You really never know when somethjng will get back to the wrong person. If anything, you should get people to share thoughts with you but don't reveal too. Ugh of what you are thinking.

People may differ with me on this, but I have observed the most ambitious and most aggressive at work sort of guys are driven. But they are driven by insecurity and inadequacy. These accomplishments are just things to make them feel like they are not insecure shithead they were as a kid. They put out tough images but are easily offended. I have been shocked enough times to just watch what I would say in a corporate environment.

Where does all this intense energy come from? A lot of it just comes from childhood hurts. I have met a lot of chill and confident guys who don't have that manic energy needed to rise to the top.

Just my two cents.

Edit: you might not like to hear this. But you can make it external and blame them but they made the decision off what you gave them. So if there is a growth moment here it would be to look at your performance. They were just reacting to your choices of words and behavior. Hang in there.

Post: #21

You can't walk around like you're the boss...if you're not the boss.

But there's an easy solution out there.

Become your own boss.

Office cubicles are no place for confident high-T men who don't like bullshit. I could never hold a job for more than 3 months as a result.

And you're in IT...should be easy to do your own thing if you put your mind to it.

Post: #22

^^^

I work in finance, not IT.

Post: #23

(07-08-2015 05:40 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  ^^^

I work in finance, not IT.

My bad...

But still. Plenty of free agents in finance.

There's no reason to be tied to a desk if you don't want to be.

Post: #24

You're never good enough for corporate swine. You're too young and inexperienced, then boom! All of a sudden you look around and realize that you're already too old and 23 year old kids get hired to do the same work. You're either not ambitious enough or too ambitious. Too much of a techie or don't have enough technical skills. The list goes on.

I believe the solution is to play the numbers game (keep looking) and aim to eventually work for yourself or become financially independent.

Post: #25

Quote:A couple of months ago I was invited to an “informal” coffee with the company Controller - this guy probably makes about $4M year. When we walked in he said. ”Feel free to say what you like. I’d like to hear opinions of people on the ground. This is totally informal”. I told him that the Shared Services team in India wasn’t very good and that most people didn’t use them or consider them competent. I asked him why they are there. He explained the history of the team in India.

A few days later I got called into my Director’s office. She said that the Controller was concerned about my knowledge about the India team and my confidence in their abilities. He thought I didn’t know what they do (I do know what they do, I deal with them almost daily). Apparently he emailed my SVP right after the meeting mentioning me and then he forwarded the email to the Director. Thankfully the Director took my side, I said it must have been a misunderstanding.

Never ever reveal what you really think about something unless you trust the person who is asking. That goes double if they say something along the lines of ”Feel free to say what you like. I’d like to hear opinions of people on the ground. This is totally informal”. On a side note, if someone says "this is totally informal", it's absolutely 100% formal. Think about it: if it was really informal, there'd be no need to say so. It's kind of like "____ but, ____" statements (e.g. I don't mean to offend you, but...). You can safely ignore everything before the "but".

Quote:You're never good enough for corporate swine. You're too young and inexperienced, then boom! All of a sudden you look around and realize that you're already too old and 23 year old kids get hired to do the same work. You're either not ambitious enough or too ambitious. Too much of a techie or don't have enough technical skills. The list goes on.

FYI, those are all bullshit excuses because they're not allowed to say the real reason.