Post: #26

(07-08-2015 04:23 PM)WalterBlack Wrote:  A couple of months ago I was invited to an “informal” coffee with the company Controller - this guy probably makes about $4M year. When we walked in he said. ”Feel free to say what you like. I’d like to hear opinions of people on the ground. This is totally informal”. I told him that the Shared Services team in India wasn’t very good and that most people didn’t use them or consider them competent. I asked him why they are there. He explained the history of the team in India.

A few days later I got called into my Director’s office. She said that the Controller was concerned about my knowledge about the India team and my confidence in their abilities. He thought I didn’t know what they do (I do know what they do, I deal with them almost daily). Apparently he emailed my SVP right after the meeting mentioning me and then he forwarded the email to the Director. Thankfully the Director took my side, I said it must have been a misunderstanding.

A few weeks ago, my department had a big meeting and the SVP said that the India team will be merged with another department in India because they were not being used enough.

Who let the controller know the India team were underperforming? Me. Who got fucked over? Me.

Sounds like the way things worked in Soviet Russia.
"Comrade, this is just between you and me. I'd really like to know how the Party can improve its efficiency!"
"Well, actually..." (relieved and proceeds to be honest)
Next stop, the gulag.

Actually, that's the way the human race works. We aren't ruled by a fraternity of "alpha males" who sit back with their feet on the coffee table, smoke cigars and slap their secretaries' asses. Never have been. Rather, there's a coalition of anxious, small-dicked guys who use duplicity and know how to recruit all the other men with inferiority complexes - and the women.

The 48 Laws of Power remains as always, worth reading.

Post: #27

I've only read the OP but I suggest this:

Email the business and tell them that their interview/HR Team are going to ruin your business because they are not hiring people who are too ambitious for the fear of competition....etc,.

Obviously reworded and make the email sound killer. From reading the OP, it seems they were scared of your skills.

Post: #28

Refer to my profile pic for how I feel about this topic.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #29

The culture of tech and finance often do not get along.

Tech people do not respect outward confidence at all. It is an introverted culture.

They look up to more of a wise elder figure even if that elder is a 20 year old wiz kid which can be the case.

If you have an East Coast demeanor most tech people will not enjoy your company. They are passive people and forgiving people more often than not.

I think your personality would shine brighter staying in a more pure financial role.

Post: #30

[quote='Peregrine' pid='1060819' dateline='1436400082']
[quote]A couple of months ago I was invited to an “informal” coffee with the company Controller - this guy probably makes about $4M year. When we walked in he said. ”Feel free to say what you like. I’d like to hear opinions of people on the ground. This is totally informal”

Never ever reveal what you really think about something unless you trust the person who is asking. That goes double if they say something along the lines of ”Feel free to say what you like. I’d like to hear opinions of people on the ground. This is totally informal”.

[quote]You're never good enough for corporate swine.
FYI, those are all bullshit excuses because they're not allowed to say the real reason.
[/quote]

Yes, unless you are specifically hired as a troubleshooter or something like that NO ONE wants your opinion or wants to know what you think.

They are above you in the organization, they want everything to remain the same including that.

They just want you to quietly do your work and keep shit off their desk and not cause problems.

Post: #31

I read in a comprehensive book about body language that during an interview, it's better to appear low-dominance as opposed to high-dominance.

Kicking yourself back in a chair with possessive body language puts people off when you are not in a position of power. You want to be wise and use this well. During an interview is not the right place. You'll come off arrogant and as a poser who thinks he is more important than the interviewer/boss trying to determine if you're the right fit.

It's not going to workout that way. Like someone else said, practice humility in these situations.

Not saying you were guilty of this, but a common problem with guys who read into game is that they have to be 'ALPHA' at all times. This is a perfect example of a time were this will screw you over.

What's wrong with just being comfortable? No need to show off your confidence. It's the same thing as the principle where you shouldn't answer questions that you aren't asked.

Post: #32

Spot on Nascimento "I read in a comprehensive book about body language that during an interview, it's better to appear low-dominance as opposed to high-dominance."

I'll admit I have lost a few job interviews by being too confident, too cocky, too at lease.

The interviewer will assume I'm toning my character down for the interview and when employed will be a totally arrogant arsehole. Nothing but trouble.

It's best to remember that one is never truly alpha in an employee situation. Your boss is the alpha male/ female. Best therefore to act a little bit beta and submissive at the interview if you want the job.

The only truly alpha employment is self employment, start your own business!!

Post: #33

Both Nascimento and Guitarman are right on this one! Just by reading your initial post I can tell that Game wise you got it since you do lift (since they said that you looked intimidating) and that attitude wise you ain't a Beta... and that's one of the downside of game!

Your aura is so strong that these Office guy smelled it and didn't want you around as a measure of protection for their ego. Don't know much about Finance, but you might have reached a point where it would be wise for you to work on your own if these types of people are the norm in your field.

Post: #34

(07-08-2015 04:27 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  I suspect they have a case of small dick syndrome. Unless these guys have an equity stake in the company (and even then, if their dicks are small enough), they aren't actually concerned with hiring right or doing their jobs right. They only care about their personal comfort and their egos.

My recommendation would have been to really talk them up. I.e. have a list of "good things you guys have done", how it would be "great to join a team of your caliber", and how "you guys must have really really large penises and I'm jealous because mine is only tiny". This disarms you as a 'threat' and makes you a 'fan', so they think hiring you is a boost to their ego rather than a potential threat. I forget which law, but it's in the 48 laws book (or possibly the 'Strategies of War' book).

Ja. The "Agency problem" has not been solved. If anything many modern developments supposedly brought in to correct it, like profit sharing and stock options, have made it worse. The management simply game the system and outright screw the shareholders. The lunatics are running the asylum.

Post: #35

(07-09-2015 06:26 AM)Captain Gh Wrote:  Both Nascimento and Guitarman are right on this one! Just by reading your initial post I can tell that Game wise you got it since you do lift (since they said that you looked intimidating) and that attitude wise you ain't a Beta... and that's one of the downside of game!

Your aura is so strong that these Office guy smelled it and didn't want you around as a measure of protection for their ego. Don't know much about Finance, but you might have reached a point where it would be wise for you to work on your own if these types of people are the norm in your field.

I don't lift, and I haven't for a while. I think the perception was more to do with my frame than anything.

I wasn’t trying to act “alpha”..I’m just a very confident person in interviews and I’ve been that way for years.

Post: #36

It's better you realise now that these people sent the ones you want to be working for rather than being hired and then having to put up with excuses and their feelings of jealousy later down the line.

Post: #37

Stop making a big deal about this.

Finding a job is like picking up a chick. You're going to get rejected- and the rejection is not personal, it's just it didn't "click."

If we made posts on here whining about every rejection we experience every day we'd be ridiculed (rightfully so) about being a whiny little bitch. The same is true about jobs.

Move on to the next one.

My first job in the industry I wanted out of college I applied to 179 jobs, went to 19 interviews and was offered 1 position.

Post: #38

(07-09-2015 10:33 AM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  Ja. The "Agency problem" has not been solved. If anything many modern developments supposedly brought in to correct it, like profit sharing and stock options, have made it worse. The management simply game the system and outright screw the shareholders. The lunatics are running the asylum.

Sometimes even with equity partners, they will free ride on the most driven partner. I've heard many cases of this. Often a more junior partner refuses to sell out of his shares too - since he knows the 'leading' partner will continue to raise the value of those shares out of his own self-interest.

What do you think the solution would be? I'm thinking just be heavy on the contractors (instead of employees), and reward management and executives with "performance-linked bonuses paid in shares, which are held in trust for 5 years". That would simultaneously encourage hitting performance targets and discourage company-damaging behaviour.

Post: #39

If I was running my own company. I would definitely take the person who I deem is confident and would run the show when I am not present.

However, if I am the HR person responsible for hiring my subordinate, the notion of "will this guy outshine and take my place in 6 months" will definitely be present in my head.


Well, just shrug it off and move on. Job interviews just a small piece in the game of life. I'm sure it will work out for OP!

Post: #40

(07-08-2015 04:27 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  My recommendation would have been to really talk them up. I.e. have a list of "good things you guys have done", how it would be "great to join a team of your caliber", and how "you guys must have really really large penises and I'm jealous because mine is only tiny". This disarms you as a 'threat' and makes you a 'fan', so they think hiring you is a boost to their ego rather than a potential threat. I forget which law, but it's in the 48 laws book (or possibly the 'Strategies of War' book).

Law 1: Never outshine the master.

Post: #41

I have a different take on career management and progression - It basically derives from the old 5 Italian rules in relationships - the 5 rules are building blocks that build upon one another in any relationship but especially a romantic one.

Regarding women in a romantic relationship you observe her behavior towards you and her level of self respect too. You can NOT tell her the rules, she has to prove she was raised right and knows them and follows them instinctively and would be a solid foundation upon which you the builder and architect can build your family. She has to show these attributes naturally and no matter how great she may be in the sack if she violates these 5 Italian rules or tests really it is NEXT.

1. Love - if she does not love you and get goose bumps and the tingles when you touch her - what's the point?
2. Honor - You are the Man she is the woman who follows and honors your wishes
3. Respect - She needs to respect you as her man and respect your life and safety decisions and follow your lead
4. Loyalty - She needs to be a team player with you and work towards common goals, financial, life, leisure
5. Fidelity - The moment she starts flirting with any other man she is being disloyal and disrespectful - she has to be a ride or die bitch for life if she is to deserve a man capable and able to use lethal force to defend her and her children in a life's trials and tribulations She basically has to be reloading by your side as you are taking out the enemy. A pioneer's woman.

In the modern SJW HR Dominated Corporate world where it is dog eats dogs... it is similar in work and professional relationships.

1. Admire - your coworkers and management need to admire you and you them or what is the point?
2. Honor - Need to honor your contributions to the team, accomplishments and recognize same (Reviews Raises)
3. Respect - Respect you as a person, your work ethic, your results - the moment you see you are disrespected by a co worker you need to call them aside about it, by a manager its a WTF session and if not satisfied find other openings in the organization and apply for a lateral transfer to a better group/manager/environment - I once worked at a major teaching hospital in IT and a damn woman school teacher was promoted to dept Manager and she made a few snide comments about my honorable military service - this enraged me and I went to HR explained the situation and asked if there were any lateral positions open - there was and it was a move up into IT Security Analyst from the Server Team leader - the teacher manager arrogantly said "I did not approve that transfer" to which i replied the hospital has a policy of lateral transfer to better career progression positions - she was dumbfounded as I knew where all the bodies were buried that she did not want anyone to find out about - so by disrespecting me I used HR to my advantage and became her worst nightmare - she eventually got fired for banging one of her married senior engineers in her office after hours.
4. Loyalty - You are on the same team and Loyalty is a two way street - if all of a sudden you are not included in the important conference calls it is time to update your resume.
5. Fidelity - It gets more subtle at this level but if unexpectedly a PC SJW Affirmative Action hire is brought in over you then its the same as if you caught your wife banging another man in your home - this is were being stealthy and ruthless comes in handy - once worked in the financial district with a 8% to 10% bonus in writing in my offer letter - got a $1K bonus for a major data center move and no mention of our bonus while some Irish guys were brought in on H1Bs at $20K less than we were being paid - at that point the writing is on the wall and I took our call list to one of the most aggressive IT recruiting bull pens in the city and talked in a private mtg room with one of their senior guys and said see this ... this is the private cell phones call tree to the key IT infrastructure guys at XYZ corp and said we are all pissed about the BS bonuses and said as soon as you get me a gig with family friendly (read Tang Banging friendly no weekends work) I will give you this confidential call tree list.

His eyes popped out of his head - he got me three good interviews and 2 solid offers within two weeks - I took one offer and he took me out for a biz dinner at a nice seafood restaurant - where I handed him a copy of the call list and he had nearly 100% of the folks on that list placed within one month.

So today, CareerBuilder, Monster, Dice and LinkedIn all allow you to update and publish your resume and CB and Monster and Dice allow it in stealth mode... I leave the check box open on contract shops and get dozens of calls a month on interesting contract gigs at decent hourly rates and many with the opportunity to go from contract to perm if you like the corp environment and the people respect you.

Take away - as soon as you are disrespected in any way in any relationship - it is time to 1. Have the WTF talk and 2. Reactivate your options asap.

Your dick, your wallet and the guy you look at in the mirror every morning will thank you for being both Machiavelli and Sun Tsu ruthless in the management of your life and your career.

Post: #42

Deepdiver Wrote:I took our call list to one of the most aggressive IT recruiting bull pens in the city and talked in a private mtg room with one of their senior guys and said see this ... this is the private cell phones call tree to the key IT infrastructure guys at XYZ corp and said we are all pissed about the BS bonuses and said as soon as you get me a gig with family friendly (read Tang Banging friendly no weekends work) I will give you this confidential call tree list.

Post: #43

When I go to job interviews, I make it my goal to spend 75% of the time not talking about the job, just engaging in interesting small talk. It's good to develop of a personal connection.

Post: #44

(07-08-2015 01:31 PM)Ice Wrote:  I think there are many people - especially in an office environment - who feel threatened if someone is not a pussy like them and instead acts confident and is ambitious. They simply don't want to have such a person around. That can really be a problem. On one hand you want to have a job, on the other hand you don't want to suppress your "alpha frame". I guess the solution is just to find a place where one fits in with the culture and the vibe. That can be quite hard though. I sometimes even envy people who work in construction or as tattoo artist or the like, because these environments are pretty macho and un-PC. But at the same time these jobs also tend to be pretty shitty and not very well paid. So that's not a solution either.

It's not a bad thing everywhere even in finance. There's a couple high finance firms out there which are infamous for having what haters call a "douchebro" culture....in other words they're confident, aggressive, and like to party hard.

Post: #45

(07-09-2015 11:28 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(07-09-2015 10:33 AM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  Ja. The "Agency problem" has not been solved. If anything many modern developments supposedly brought in to correct it, like profit sharing and stock options, have made it worse. The management simply game the system and outright screw the shareholders. The lunatics are running the asylum.

Sometimes even with equity partners, they will free ride on the most driven partner. I've heard many cases of this. Often a more junior partner refuses to sell out of his shares too - since he knows the 'leading' partner will continue to raise the value of those shares out of his own self-interest.

What do you think the solution would be? I'm thinking just be heavy on the contractors (instead of employees), and reward management and executives with "performance-linked bonuses paid in shares, which are held in trust for 5 years". That would simultaneously encourage hitting performance targets and discourage company-damaging behaviour.

I'm not sure of a total solution. One thought I've had recently is that start ups shouldn't give stock options directly to employees, especially senior managers. The founders should decide on a certain percent of the company they want to allocate to non-founder staff - say 10%. Those shares go into some sort of trust (I'm not a lawyer) for the benefit of all non-founder employees, but no employee actually has the rights to any share. This trust would get income by way of dividends, and pay this out to staff in proportion to seniority, performance etc. Also, all amounts paid out from this fund would be disclosed. No secrets. This to prevent the craziness where a handful of connected senior mangers essentially give themselves 80+% of the pot. If they do this it will be in black and white and they have to face the other employees. I'm thinking of "billionaire" managers like Eric Schmidt and that bossy woman at Facebook. I will never accept the justification for billionaire non-founder managers. Never. They got there by screwing shareholders by loading and manipulating the remuneration committee.

But other than that. Avoiding going public may also help. The agency problem increases the more remote the other stakeholders (mostly the shareholders) are. One company I want to look at more closely is Richard Branson's Virgin Group. It is a private company now, but did have a very short stint as a publicly traded one. Branson took it off whatever exchange it was listed in disgust, and it has been private ever since. I would like to know how he does it. Because raising money could be a problem.

Post: #46

(07-08-2015 10:12 PM)Afarang Wrote:  I've only read the OP but I suggest this:

Email the business and tell them that their interview/HR Team are going to ruin your business because they are not hiring people who are too ambitious for the fear of competition....etc,.

Obviously reworded and make the email sound killer. From reading the OP, it seems they were scared of your skills.

IMHO, I wouldn't bother. Done something similar in the past, not about a job but doing businesss with the company, top exec didn't care enough to even answer.

Bottom line is people are afraid of being shown up by others. Boss wants you to learn only a small part of your work (to do the grunt work) but not so much tat you can replace him. Coworkers don't want others to be better than them (sell more, produce more.)

As to that job, it's not the type of environment you would want to work in. Sounds like the place where if you're toogood at your job you will be ostracized socially and have your work sabotaged by others. I've been on the receiving end of that.

Finally, take reasons/excuses for not hiring you with a grain of salt. Often the real reason is, we went through the motions of interviewing but are promoting an insider or hiring someone's relative or girlfriend, we couldn't get authorization for hiring, we're too cheap to pay you what you are worth etc. etc.

Post: #47

(07-08-2015 10:21 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  The culture of tech and finance often do not get along.

Tech people do not respect outward confidence at all. It is an introverted culture.

They look up to more of a wise elder figure even if that elder is a 20 year old wiz kid which can be the case.

If you have an East Coast demeanor most tech people will not enjoy your company. They are passive people and forgiving people more often than not.

I think your personality would shine brighter staying in a more pure financial role.

Which is exactly why I'm shooting for Wall Street jobs post-MBA.

Yes, the hours are brutal. Yes, it's a cutthroat environment full of douchebags.....but it's still a very aggressive, very masculine environment. I'd get bored anywhere else. I've even turned down opportunities for Wealth Management at commercial banks because of how passive and female dominated the culture at those companies was.


Still be lucky you got any feedback at all. In most cases you aren't going to get anything more than complaints about your "cultural fit".....particularly when you're dealing with a passive aggressive, post-wall female HR rep who looks like she'd be a good match for Jabba the Hutt.

Post: #48

(07-13-2015 04:04 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(07-08-2015 10:21 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  The culture of tech and finance often do not get along.

Tech people do not respect outward confidence at all. It is an introverted culture.

They look up to more of a wise elder figure even if that elder is a 20 year old wiz kid which can be the case.

If you have an East Coast demeanor most tech people will not enjoy your company. They are passive people and forgiving people more often than not.

I think your personality would shine brighter staying in a more pure financial role.

Which is exactly why I'm shooting for Wall Street jobs post-MBA.

Yes, the hours are brutal. Yes, it's a cutthroat environment full of douchebags.....but it's still a very aggressive, very masculine environment. I'd get bored anywhere else. I've even turned down opportunities for Wealth Management at commercial banks because of how passive and female dominated the culture at those companies was.


Still be lucky you got any feedback at all. In most cases you aren't going to get anything more than complaints about your "cultural fit".....particularly when you're dealing with a passive aggressive, post-wall female HR rep who looks like she'd be a good match for Jabba the Hutt.

I'm not sure what your work experience is, but I do hope you are going to a Top 5, Top 10 at worse MBA school. Not trying to be a dick, it is a lot of money and if you want to be working in Wall Street, you need every advantage. Consulting and Banking are big on pedigree. Best of luck.

Post: #49

Corporations want "smart enough" cubicle wage slaves who feel that they're lucky to have a job.

Last thing they want is someone who will rock the boat even if all your qualities are good.

Post: #50

(07-13-2015 04:37 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(07-13-2015 04:04 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(07-08-2015 10:21 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  The culture of tech and finance often do not get along.

Tech people do not respect outward confidence at all. It is an introverted culture.

They look up to more of a wise elder figure even if that elder is a 20 year old wiz kid which can be the case.

If you have an East Coast demeanor most tech people will not enjoy your company. They are passive people and forgiving people more often than not.

I think your personality would shine brighter staying in a more pure financial role.

Which is exactly why I'm shooting for Wall Street jobs post-MBA.

Yes, the hours are brutal. Yes, it's a cutthroat environment full of douchebags.....but it's still a very aggressive, very masculine environment. I'd get bored anywhere else. I've even turned down opportunities for Wealth Management at commercial banks because of how passive and female dominated the culture at those companies was.


Still be lucky you got any feedback at all. In most cases you aren't going to get anything more than complaints about your "cultural fit".....particularly when you're dealing with a passive aggressive, post-wall female HR rep who looks like she'd be a good match for Jabba the Hutt.

I'm not sure what your work experience is, but I do hope you are going to a Top 5, Top 10 at worse MBA school. Not trying to be a dick, it is a lot of money and if you want to be working in Wall Street, you need every advantage. Consulting and Banking are big on pedigree. Best of luck.

Already got that taken care of. Not technically a "top 10" school but everyone in the current classes who did investment banking recruiting was hired into IBD....not even the Ivies pull off 100% placement.

They're biting already too. I've received some invitations to pre-MBA events from some tier 2 BB firms.