Post: #1

Interesting blog about China and Africa:

http://www.chinaafricarealstory.com/

Post: #2

I am not sure I agree with the theory that China is "building up a bloc."

Right now, China's interests are economic, and as long as these "poorer" countries want to trade with China, China is cool with it. I don't see China wanting to be some sort of cultural or ideological force in the world like the U.S. or, going back further, the USSR.

Post: #3

Very interesting subject! I like how China has a no-strings-attached economic policy of non-interference when it comes to Africa.

Although they do prop up and support some pretty rogue characters like Mugabe in Zim and Al-Basir in Sudan, it seems to get better results than the west's paternalistic policies of foreign aid! Not too sure all Africans like Chinese though, I've heard some horror stories about Chinese mine managers shooting striking workers at copper mines in Zambia!

One recent story I read was about how Britain was considering cutting aid to African countries that condemn homosexuality, it caused major furor in some countries like Ghana, who's Prime Minister basically said that Ghana will NEVER legalize homosexuality. The gay agenda is huge in Canada too and our Prime Minister has hinted at cutting aid to such non-gay friendly countries as well.

Think about it, Europeans colonized these place countries, brought their religion with them, and now years later we're telling them that its not cool to ban homosexuality and are even threatening to cut aid! WTF, it wasn't that long ago that homosexuality was illegal in Canada and really it only the last 15 years or so that they come out of the closet, and now we're telling Africans to change, or else!

I don't even believe in foreign aid to Africa anyway, fuck those washed up wankers Bono and Geldof, read Dambia Moyo's "Dead Aid" for more info on this topic, great read, plus she's a hot brainiac!

Post: #4

China's taking over where Britain left off.

Opening old mines,taking over railways which they originally built but the Africans ran into the ground.

But,they're not well liked by the average African.
They also bring in their own workforces and don't take on many locals.

But the Chinese are definitiely in with the various regimes and giving them all the perks while staking their claim for the Century ahead.

Not just with big infrastructure projects but they're sending in small business men that are setting up shop in towns and cities all over and will end up being the dominant force in short order.

I saw a documentary where Chinese chicken farmers basically wiped out the local African traders,undercutting them and flooding the market with battery chickens.

The various african countries are going to have to have leaders that cut much better deals for their people and country as a whole rather than just for perks.

Just compare Ghana and Malaysia at independence and compare them now....worlds apart ...because Malaysia had better leaders,were more organised,refused to get fucked by outside forces.

Africans need to be sharp Otherwise,in 20-30 years their countries will be stripped bare and they'll have nothing to show for it,while China rules ove their puppet governments!

Post: #5

Don't forget one cool thing that is happening with the Chinese in Africa, mixed race babies!

Since China has so many dudes, many of those who end up in Africa are breeding with the locals, nice mix black and chinese: blasians!

Post: #6

China is the new colony in Africa. I am highly impressed with how chinese people fastly adapt to different environments and cultures. You will see here chinese men and women as street sellers selling medication tabs or related products, you will go to ghettos in Angola and you will see chinese chilling and living in the hoods, they learn the local language fast and many are now opening different businesses and making serious money here.

Im also impressed with the government deals that China has created with Africa. China is basically building a whole new infrastructure here and China brought their own workers here, its bad for africans but good for the chinese.

China is on some next level shit.

Post: #7

(01-01-2012 02:30 PM)scotian Wrote:  Although they do prop up and support some pretty rogue characters like Mugabe in Zim and Al-Basir in Sudan, it seems to get better results than the west's paternalistic policies of foreign aid! Not too sure all Africans like Chinese though, I've heard some horror stories about Chinese mine managers shooting striking workers at copper mines in Zambia!

The latest scandal is a bunch of Chinese mine managers in the Copperbelt found in a room with some early-teen girls. That didn't go over too well.

I find the Africans like the money and infrastructure (new giant soccer stadiums popping up all over), but the two communities are very stand-offish towards each other. It wouldn't surprise me down the road if there are some big riots against the Chinese, but unlike the white man 50 years ago, there is no military to stand in the way of serious trouble from the locals.

Post: #8

Much of Africa was purposely underdeveloped in the colonial period as were most colonized places. China was never fully colonized and enjoyed the ability to have higher education and keep in its educated people with communism and american investment. When Congo had independence it had less than 50 university grads nation wide all foreign educated. Hence making it a real crap shoot.

The Chinese offer a better deal to africans than euro=american have offered so thats why its expanding so much. Britain and america offered do what we say and we will give you money and some like Mugabe had said screw off and his country is growing at 10% a year after US UK sanctions. China offered investment no strings attached.

Post: #9

(01-01-2012 02:56 PM)scotian Wrote:  Don't forget one cool thing that is happening with the Chinese in Africa, mixed race babies!

Since China has so many dudes, many of those who end up in Africa are breeding with the locals, nice mix black and chinese: blasians!

Old military strategy...I'll leave it at that.

Post: #10

As others have said, China's interest in Africa is purely economic, and the tendency of the Chinese is to bring in their own workers, not hire locals.

I have a feeling that in time the Chinese in Africa are going to be in deep shit when the locals realize that they're not benefiting from China's economic interests and development.

Fuck 'em both. As with all cases of economy and empire, my main interest is how to make a dollar out of both sides.

Post: #11

The Chinese deal is still alot better than the alternatives. when you live in a country where no one knows how to build an oil well and extract the oil, its not a bad idea to bring in the cChinese to build the oil well then sell the oil to them for money. This is in contrast to the other model which says european private companies run by the government or heavily subsidized by the government of their own state, come in with foreign workers and sell your oil to their country and give you a 3% royalty.

Post: #12

China's largest foreign investment destination is Australia, followed by NIGERIA.

Post: #13

What happens when the vast majority remain poor, while a small Chinese and local minority is seen as getting the main benefit of the local resources?

Either the government will have to clamp down or implement massive redistribution schemes. Either way there's gonna be major class tension.

Post: #14

^From what I've seen in places like Angola this is simply not the case. The Chinese do not use the European model of trade where a bunch of foreigners come with skills and keep those skills to themselves and take all the profit and pay a small royalty. From what I've seen the majority of money goes to african governments who do business with china, which is also why all the iraq and afghan contracts went to China. They will build all the oil infrastructure and hand over most the money to these governements because they have an incentive for cheap oil. The oil money they forgo is nothing compared to the benefits they get from cheap transportation cost by exporting everything to the west. Ironically Portugal is trying to borrow money from Angola now, so I'd say they seem to be getting a fair deal.

Post: #15

(01-22-2012 04:19 AM)misterstir Wrote:  Ironically Portugal is trying to borrow money from Angola now, so I'd say they seem to be getting a fair deal.

Reverse colonization! It's reading stuff that like which sinks in the decline of the Western World.

Post: #16

(01-22-2012 04:19 AM)misterstir Wrote:  ^From what I've seen in places like Angola this is simply not the case. The Chinese do not use the European model of trade where a bunch of foreigners come with skills and keep those skills to themselves and take all the profit and pay a small royalty. From what I've seen the majority of money goes to african governments who do business with china, which is also why all the iraq and afghan contracts went to China. They will build all the oil infrastructure and hand over most the money to these governements because they have an incentive for cheap oil. The oil money they forgo is nothing compared to the benefits they get from cheap transportation cost by exporting everything to the west. Ironically Portugal is trying to borrow money from Angola now, so I'd say they seem to be getting a fair deal.

That's why I also said locals too. Obviously they have to buy off the local government to keep the commodities flowing. The question, though, is whether the government redistributes enough of it to the population to stave off resentment of the foreigners.

Post: #17

(01-22-2012 05:01 AM)P Dog Wrote:  

(01-22-2012 04:19 AM)misterstir Wrote:  Ironically Portugal is trying to borrow money from Angola now, so I'd say they seem to be getting a fair deal.

Reverse colonization! It's reading stuff that like which sinks in the decline of the Western World.

You think that's bad, check out these two videos.

The first one talks about the fall of Portuguese finance, and how new, very wealthy investors are flying in and picking up the pieces of the banks left behind and purchase luxury goods/homes cheaply (keeping the local economy barely afloat in the process).
Who are these investors? Not other Europeans, not Americans, and not Arabs. They're Angolans.





This second video is even more revealing. Lots of folks are bailing out of Portugal-the job market is so bad that they're being forced to seek better fortunes in other countries.
Where are they heading? Not England, not Spain and not America. Brazil is getting a bunch of them, but two of the largest destinations are in fact...Angola and Mozambique (both former Portuguese African colonies).

Post: #18

This kinda stuff makes me laugh. My surname happens to be Portuguese on both sides of my family (remnants of their colonization).

Hell, in thirty years as Africa's population bulges in the economically active middle aged, it would be hilarious to see say: the Congo bailing out Belgium. Or South Africa bailing out Britain. The tragedies in the Congo and the concentration camps during the Boer wars aren't funny at all, but the whole idea of the "dark continent" being Europe's boss amuses me in many sick ways. I have a dark sense of humour (no pun intended).

Post: #19

(01-23-2012 09:35 AM)P Dog Wrote:  This kinda stuff makes me laugh. My surname happens to be Portuguese on both sides of my family (remnants of their colonization).

Hell, in thirty years as Africa's population bulges in the economically active middle aged, it would be hilarious to see say: the Congo bailing out Belgium. Or South Africa bailing out Britain. The tragedies in the Congo and the concentration camps during the Boer wars aren't funny at all, but the whole idea of the "dark continent" being Europe's boss amuses me in many sick ways. I have a dark sense of humour (no pun intended).

Trust me, I know exactly where you're coming from. You're not alone in that feeling.
Honestly, I don't even think the feeling is that dark, it is simply karmic. The world has a funny way of balancing things out over time.

Post: #20

(01-22-2012 04:19 AM)misterstir Wrote:  From what I've seen the majority of money goes to african governments who do business with china, which is also why all the iraq and afghan contracts went to China.

What have you seen exactly?

Post: #21

(01-23-2012 12:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  The world has a funny way of balancing things out over time.

I'd like to know what makes you say something like that? For the multitude of history books I've read, this really does not seem to describe reality.

Post: #22

(01-23-2012 01:42 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

(01-23-2012 12:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  The world has a funny way of balancing things out over time.

I'd like to know what makes you say something like that? For the multitude of history books I've read, this really does not seem to describe reality.

Empires rise and fall-power is never absolute and eternal. At one point in time, you can find empires at the top of their individual heaps, dominating and clearly bending other peoples to their will.
Several hundred years (or even just a few decades) later, you can often find that same empire toiling in relative obscurity, or with its fortunes completely reversed (at the mercy of a group it once dominated).

Ex:
-The relationship between the Islamic world and Western Europe over the past 1000 years.
-Greece two thousand years ago vs. today (global super power to economic basketcase).
-The Iroquois Confederacy during the late 17th/early 18th century vs. the post-revolutionary war period.
-The early 19th century Blackfoot vs. the Shoshone
-The Apache Empire

There are many more. We're seeing it happen to Portugal now (though obviously only time will tell if these trends continue).

That is actually a pretty easy conclusion to come to for anyone who has engaged in a serious academic study of history (which I actually do, for the record).

Post: #23

(01-23-2012 09:35 AM)P Dog Wrote:  Hell, in thirty years as Africa's population bulges in the economically active middle aged, it would be hilarious to see say: the Congo bailing out Belgium. Or South Africa bailing out Britain. The tragedies in the Congo and the concentration camps during the Boer wars aren't funny at all, but the whole idea of the "dark continent" being Europe's boss amuses me in many sick ways. I have a dark sense of humour (no pun intended).

Doesn't Africa has a long way to go if it is going to surpass or even get close to Europe. I know alot of Africa was colonized, the resources were taken to other countries, and the people were used as slaves. This is precisely why I believe their development was stunted in the first place.

Isn't a little far fetched to say that Africa is going to be "bailing out" or ruling over a Europen country. I realize that you said "in 30 years". Maybe its possible, I'm thinking more like 300 years.

I'm asking this from a purely intellectual standpoint. Its a very romantic idea to think that the former slaves would one day "save" or "bail out" the former slave owners, but I think we are a few centuries away from that.

(01-23-2012 12:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  it is simply karmic. The world has a funny way of balancing things out over time.

So you believe in "karma"? It's curious to me to hear an educated man like yourself discuss karma. Why do you believe this? What evidence have you seen that led you to believe in this concept?

I'm asking out of intellectual curiosity..

Have you studied it in school? Does science support this force known as "karma"?

I'm asking you because I know you are Ivy league educated.

Please explain.

Edit: I see that ElJefe asked Athlone a similar question. Athlone provided historical examples of people losing or gaining power.

Was power gained or lost due to "karma"? Or was it just due to the circumstances of the day?

Do the sins of our ancestors really effect us in this "meta-physical" way?

Is there any evidence to suggest that anybody at anytime gained or lost power due to "karma".

Post: #24

Dude, your examples are... strange.

Greece a super-power? What? Cultural super-power, yes... but they fell apart as soon as they got big.

Those Native American civlizations were wiped out by European powers and small-pox. They never had a chance.

Seriously, anybody could go on TV and say Empires rise and fall.. it's the one thing ANYONE can say with absolute certainty. This back and forth thing you indicate by writing "balancing" doesn't fit. Big general statements are hopelessly inaccurate like that... you'd want to take a look at each situation.

By the way... the episode about medicine relates to Africa:

/thread-5348.h...l+ferguson

As for the blog - I'm not so sure. If Chinese intentions are pure, why do they keep supporting bloody-minded dictators in the UN or North Korea? I think Chinese foreign police is malignant, as far as the West is concerned, and has a long-term goal of securing Chinese hegemony and world domination - political and economic.

Post: #25

(01-23-2012 02:26 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  Edit: I see that ElJefe asked Athlone a similar question. Athlone provided historical examples of people losing or gaining power.

Was power gained or lost due to "karma"? Or was it just due to the circumstances of the day?

Do the sins of our ancestors really effect us in this "meta-physical" way?

Is there any evidence to suggest that anybody at anytime gained or lost power due to "karma".

I'm not aiming to scientifically prove anything.

Historically, power has been transient and cyclical, with many 180 degree reversals of fortune. One could easily argue that these changes were due simply to circumstance-this is likely the case, as any analysis of history shows.

One could also argue that the circumstances often appear karmic in nature-the results often lead to what some would refer to as "karma" for one group or another. Not always, but quite often.

Since I am not a god or otherwise divine being, I can't hope to prove the existence of karma or any other metaphysical force, nor do I really care to-their validity is up to individuals to decide. It is simply an observation and a hunch on my part. Circumstances lead to cyclical rises and falls-these circumstances appear to often lead to karmic consequences. You can call it karma or you can avoid doing so-whatever works for you is fine.