Post: #1

What are some good books on computer programming? Websites? Videos? Tutorials?

How did you guys learn computer programming? I know that a good many programmers are self-taught.

I'm basically a total newbie at computer programming, but from what I've read, a computer program is a set of instructions for the computer to perform a specific task. They also come in different languages. I have a few ideas in mind that I think would be great computer programs.

I am thinking about writing a computer program, selling it, and making money off of it as my business idea.

Post: #2

(12-20-2011 05:13 AM)blurb Wrote:  What are some good books on computer programming? Websites? Videos? Tutorials?

It really depends on what you're trying to do. First figure out which language would be best for your project. If you're programming a desktop application, I would recommend C# (Windows) or Objective-C with the Cocoa framework (Mac OS X). I can't really recommend a book for Windows programming, but Aaron Hillegass's Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X is the best book on application development on OS X. Hillegass's book on iPhone programming is really good too.

If you're programming a web application, use either PHP or Ruby on Rails. I would also recommend learning Javascript.

If you're using Rails, the guides on the Rails website are pretty solid. Agile Web Development with Rails is good too.

As for PHP, this is the book I used to learn PHP and MySQL for building web apps. Very solid resource.

Javascript is easy to pick up. Use the jQuery library.

Quote:How did you guys learn computer programming? I know that a good many programmers are self-taught.

I'm totally self taught and have been coding since I was 10 or 11. It's really not that hard to pick up programming. Once you learn one language, it's easy to switch over to others as well. It's an awesome skill.

If you have any other specific questions, feel free to shoot me a PM...

Post: #3

Ruby is a great first language to get into programming. This is a fun guide for the basics: http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guid...ter-1.html

Here's a good overview of Ruby resources, written by the guy who wrote Rails (which is a web application framework for Ruby): http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/arc/000199.html

This site is new, so the material up is limited, but it looks like a cool way to learn: http://www.codecademy.com/ - it's only JavaScript at the moment but it introduces a lot of concepts that you'll see in other languages.

Post: #4

Books are fine for getting started, but you might want to pick up a few college courses if you're serious about coding for a living.

That said, I never used anything beyond the first year of computer science in anything work related.

And if you're thinking of writing a game, production quality games run at about 10M to develop these days, unless you want to make something small like for an iPhone or a facebook app. Even then you'd better get a hold of a graphic artist to make it look slick if you want it to sell.

Post: #5

What do you guys think the future of programming is, particularly for freelancers?

I've been considering learning a programming language or two so I can take on some freelance jobs and boost my online income; but I'm wondering if over the next few years I'd just be competing against guys from India/China who will outwork me and for much cheaper. What value does the western-educated person add, if anything? Will all app development be outsourced in the next 10-20 years, or is there still gonna be a big gap between what an outsourced Indian/Chinese coder and a western programmer can offer?

Also wondering about doing freelance Web Analytics... I would think since that's more closely linked to generating insights for business strategy, it's not something any old coder will from India/China will be able to grasp without solid business experience or education. So perhaps a stronger bet?

Any thoughts guys?

Post: #6

I studied C++ for a bit and I'd like to continue learning how to program. I've read a lot that said Python or Java are good languages to use for functionality.

Chef In Jeans
A culinary website for men

Post: #7

(12-20-2011 06:33 PM)RichieP Wrote:  What do you guys think the future of programming is, particularly for freelancers?

I've been considering learning a programming language or two so I can take on some freelance jobs and boost my online income; but I'm wondering if over the next few years I'd just be competing against guys from India/China who will outwork me and for much cheaper. What value does the western-educated person add, if anything? Will all app development be outsourced in the next 10-20 years, or is there still gonna be a big gap between what an outsourced Indian/Chinese coder and a western programmer can offer?

Also wondering about doing freelance Web Analytics... I would think since that's more closely linked to generating insights for business strategy, it's not something any old coder will from India/China will be able to grasp without solid business experience or education. So perhaps a stronger bet?

Any thoughts guys?

Stay away from Java, since that's what a lot of the cheap outsourcing places specialise in.

The future of most (if not ALL) applications is on the web. So skip old school application programming (except Objective-C if you plan to do iPhone development) and start honing your JavaScript / HTML5 / back-end web development framework of choice skills. That's where the action is going to be in coming years.

If I were to recommend one skillset it would be analytics (in relation to online marketing) and optimising websites.

If you improve a big site's conversion rate (to make a sale) by even a fraction of a percent you're directly contributing to their revenue and they'll be inclined to compensate you accordingly. It's very hard to do right. You need to be able to run A/B and multivariate tests to try out different approaches and test what works in real-time. Being able to code is a huge asset, and it's not the kind of thing you can easily outsource. You really need to go in and understand the business and work with them over time.

A related skillset that could be valuable is SEO, though SEO consultants vary hugely from quacks to people who really understand what's going on under the hood at Google and, given the resources, are able to work miracles.

Post: #8

(12-20-2011 08:05 PM)Caligula Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 06:33 PM)RichieP Wrote:  What do you guys think the future of programming is, particularly for freelancers?

I've been considering learning a programming language or two so I can take on some freelance jobs and boost my online income; but I'm wondering if over the next few years I'd just be competing against guys from India/China who will outwork me and for much cheaper. What value does the western-educated person add, if anything? Will all app development be outsourced in the next 10-20 years, or is there still gonna be a big gap between what an outsourced Indian/Chinese coder and a western programmer can offer?

Also wondering about doing freelance Web Analytics... I would think since that's more closely linked to generating insights for business strategy, it's not something any old coder will from India/China will be able to grasp without solid business experience or education. So perhaps a stronger bet?

Any thoughts guys?

Stay away from Java, since that's what a lot of the cheap outsourcing places specialise in.

The future of most (if not ALL) applications is on the web. So skip old school application programming (except Objective-C if you plan to do iPhone development) and start honing your JavaScript / HTML5 / back-end web development framework of choice skills. That's where the action is going to be in coming years.

If I were to recommend one skillset it would be analytics (in relation to online marketing) and optimising websites.

If you improve a big site's conversion rate (to make a sale) by even a fraction of a percent you're directly contributing to their revenue and they'll be inclined to compensate you accordingly. It's very hard to do right. You need to be able to run A/B and multivariate tests to try out different approaches and test what works in real-time. Being able to code is a huge asset, and it's not the kind of thing you can easily outsource. You really need to go in and understand the business and work with them over time.

A related skillset that could be valuable is SEO, though SEO consultants vary hugely from quacks to people who really understand what's going on under the hood at Google and, given the resources, are able to work miracles.

Learning how to run an online business is a huge advantage, because it requires a variety of skills and when you learn all of them you're worth a helluva lot.

That means slogging it out and taking the time to learn the skills. You have to learn a wide variety of skills such as basic CSS, SEO, copywriting, website optimization, photoshop, A/B testing, email marketing, ad creation, product creation, outsourcing, self promotion, and all kinds of random shit.

Combine all those skills and you have the resources to make a good living.

A good example of a guy who's well rounded is Brad Branson, his site is top notch and his content is excellent. His SEO is great too. Making a site like that mesh together as a whole package takes a fuckload of effort.

http://www.bradbranson.com/

Post: #9

(12-20-2011 06:33 PM)RichieP Wrote:  What do you guys think the future of programming is, particularly for freelancers?

I've been considering learning a programming language or two so I can take on some freelance jobs and boost my online income; but I'm wondering if over the next few years I'd just be competing against guys from India/China who will outwork me and for much cheaper. What value does the western-educated person add, if anything? Will all app development be outsourced in the next 10-20 years, or is there still gonna be a big gap between what an outsourced Indian/Chinese coder and a western programmer can offer?

It is actually a great time to be a freelance programmer now, and I only see it getting better in the imediate future.

The thing to understand about freelance projects is that one of the key issues that can mean the difference between success or failure of a project is COMMUNICATION. In this area we, as native English speaking coders, have a HUGE advantage. When I first started doing consulting/freelancing one of the biggest sources of revenue was fixing projects where the owner tried to go on the cheap and hire guys from India or China. Inevitably there were tons of mis-communications with the project and the end result turned out to be not what the client wanted.

This is not to say that there are no skilled programmers in India. There are tons of them. It is just that many/most of the best have jobs with the Bangalore campuses of Microsoft, Oracle, and Wipro. The days of being able to hire a top level Indian coder for $5 an hour are over. Now, for that $5, you are getting the equivalent of some dude who took a few programming classes at a junior college, and couldn't find a job at one of the top firms.

Also, one of the ways that these Indian shops try to mitigate these problems is by having a manager/liaison who is very proficient at English and have him be the point of contact for the client. The problem is that this additional layer of overhead costs money. Also, every time you add an extra layer between the client and the coder you run the likelihood of playing the game "telephone", where the message gets distorted as it travels from person to person.

Over time, especially for less cookie-cutter type problems, it becomes quicker and easier to just hire an American (or other western nation) programmer. I got started in programming back in '99. For those of you who don't remember, after the dotcom crash people proclaimed that the American programmer was dead because he could never compete financially with Indian programmers. It's been 10 years since that proclamation. How many American programmers with up to date skills do you know that are unemployed?

I was resentful of the Indian programmers when I first got into the business, because back then EVERYONE was trying to outsource EVERYTHING, and it was hard for a programmer without a CS degree to find that first job. However, now I am grateful to them. THOSE INDIAN PROGRAMMERS got companies to become truly comfortable with the idea of employing contractors who telecommute, as opposed to requiring the programmer work on site. If it wasn't for those Indian programmers, I would probably be working in a cubicle, wearing a short sleeve white shirt and tie like Dilbert. Instead, I am setting up my next multi-month trip to Latin America that was made possible because I can work where ever I have a laptop and an internet connection.

Post: #10

(12-21-2011 08:10 AM)joehoya Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 06:33 PM)RichieP Wrote:  What do you guys think the future of programming is, particularly for freelancers?

I've been considering learning a programming language or two so I can take on some freelance jobs and boost my online income; but I'm wondering if over the next few years I'd just be competing against guys from India/China who will outwork me and for much cheaper. What value does the western-educated person add, if anything? Will all app development be outsourced in the next 10-20 years, or is there still gonna be a big gap between what an outsourced Indian/Chinese coder and a western programmer can offer?

It is actually a great time to be a freelance programmer now, and I only see it getting better in the imediate future.

The thing to understand about freelance projects is that one of the key issues that can mean the difference between success or failure of a project is COMMUNICATION. In this area we, as native English speaking coders, have a HUGE advantage. When I first started doing consulting/freelancing one of the biggest sources of revenue was fixing projects where the owner tried to go on the cheap and hire guys from India or China. Inevitably there were tons of mis-communications with the project and the end result turned out to be not what the client wanted.

This is not to say that there are no skilled programmers in India. There are tons of them. It is just that many/most of the best have jobs with the Bangalore campuses of Microsoft, Oracle, and Wipro. The days of being able to hire a top level Indian coder for $5 an hour are over. Now, for that $5, you are getting the equivalent of some dude who took a few programming classes at a junior college, and couldn't find a job at one of the top firms.

Also, one of the ways that these Indian shops try to mitigate these problems is by having a manager/liaison who is very proficient at English and have him be the point of contact for the client. The problem is that this additional layer of overhead costs money. Also, every time you add an extra layer between the client and the coder you run the likelihood of playing the game "telephone", where the message gets distorted as it travels from person to person.

Over time, especially for less cookie-cutter type problems, it becomes quicker and easier to just hire an American (or other western nation) programmer. I got started in programming back in '99. For those of you who don't remember, after the dotcom crash people proclaimed that the American programmer was dead because he could never compete financially with Indian programmers. It's been 10 years since that proclamation. How many American programmers with up to date skills do you know that are unemployed?

I was resentful of the Indian programmers when I first got into the business, because back then EVERYONE was trying to outsource EVERYTHING, and it was hard for a programmer without a CS degree to find that first job. However, now I am grateful to them. THOSE INDIAN PROGRAMMERS got companies to become truly comfortable with the idea of employing contractors who telecommute, as opposed to requiring the programmer work on site. If it wasn't for those Indian programmers, I would probably be working in a cubicle, wearing a short sleeve white shirt and tie like Dilbert. Instead, I am setting up my next multi-month trip to Latin America that was made possible because I can work where ever I have a laptop and an internet connection.

Really interesting perspective. Most people I know who have contracted out programming work to India over the past decade say it was a total disaster and they'll never do it again.

Freelancing is something I've considered but never really looked into before. How do you meet up with prospective clients? Is there a site that that matches such programmers with projects or is it mostly through word of mouth?

Post: #11

Quote:Really interesting perspective. Most people I know who have contracted out programming work to India over the past decade say it was a total disaster and they'll never do it again.

Yeah, programming is a unique service in that it requires creativity in additional to logical thinking. This makes it one of the most difficult things to outsource. Countries like China & India may have good coders, but they're missing that creative edge that we have in the west. Being a creative, English speaking programmer gives you a huge advantage.

Quote:Freelancing is something I've considered but never really looked into before. How do you meet up with prospective clients? Is there a site that that matches such programmers with projects or is it mostly through word of mouth?

Most of my biggest jobs have come from word of mouth. All the big freelancing sites can help when you're just getting started (odesk, freelancer, elance, etc.) Also give craigslist a try. I've gotten a couple projects through there.

The other cool thing about being a freelance designer/programmer is that you don't really need to meet up with all of your clients. Assuming you can deliver quality results, the most you'll probably need is a Skype call.

Post: #12

Niiice guys, especially joe, that's great info. And interesting that programming was proclaimed dead for westerners 12 years ago and it's still going strong, for the reasons you mentioned.

Caligula, what languages would you say are the best compliments for a Web Analytics skillset, doing A/B and multivariate tests etc? PHP, HTML?

Post: #13

(12-21-2011 01:15 PM)RichieP Wrote:  Niiice guys, especially joe, that's great info. And interesting that programming was proclaimed dead for westerners 12 years ago and it's still going strong, for the reasons you mentioned.

Caligula, what languages would you say are the best compliments for a Web Analytics skillset, doing A/B and multivariate tests etc? PHP, HTML?

Definitely front-end stuff like JavaScript, CSS and (more and more) HTML5.

Post: #14

(12-21-2011 08:10 AM)joehoya Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 06:33 PM)RichieP Wrote:  What do you guys think the future of programming is, particularly for freelancers?

I've been considering learning a programming language or two so I can take on some freelance jobs and boost my online income; but I'm wondering if over the next few years I'd just be competing against guys from India/China who will outwork me and for much cheaper. What value does the western-educated person add, if anything? Will all app development be outsourced in the next 10-20 years, or is there still gonna be a big gap between what an outsourced Indian/Chinese coder and a western programmer can offer?

It is actually a great time to be a freelance programmer now, and I only see it getting better in the imediate future.

The thing to understand about freelance projects is that one of the key issues that can mean the difference between success or failure of a project is COMMUNICATION. In this area we, as native English speaking coders, have a HUGE advantage. When I first started doing consulting/freelancing one of the biggest sources of revenue was fixing projects where the owner tried to go on the cheap and hire guys from India or China. Inevitably there were tons of mis-communications with the project and the end result turned out to be not what the client wanted.

This is not to say that there are no skilled programmers in India. There are tons of them. It is just that many/most of the best have jobs with the Bangalore campuses of Microsoft, Oracle, and Wipro. The days of being able to hire a top level Indian coder for $5 an hour are over. Now, for that $5, you are getting the equivalent of some dude who took a few programming classes at a junior college, and couldn't find a job at one of the top firms.

Also, one of the ways that these Indian shops try to mitigate these problems is by having a manager/liaison who is very proficient at English and have him be the point of contact for the client. The problem is that this additional layer of overhead costs money. Also, every time you add an extra layer between the client and the coder you run the likelihood of playing the game "telephone", where the message gets distorted as it travels from person to person.

Over time, especially for less cookie-cutter type problems, it becomes quicker and easier to just hire an American (or other western nation) programmer. I got started in programming back in '99. For those of you who don't remember, after the dotcom crash people proclaimed that the American programmer was dead because he could never compete financially with Indian programmers. It's been 10 years since that proclamation. How many American programmers with up to date skills do you know that are unemployed?

I was resentful of the Indian programmers when I first got into the business, because back then EVERYONE was trying to outsource EVERYTHING, and it was hard for a programmer without a CS degree to find that first job. However, now I am grateful to them. THOSE INDIAN PROGRAMMERS got companies to become truly comfortable with the idea of employing contractors who telecommute, as opposed to requiring the programmer work on site. If it wasn't for those Indian programmers, I would probably be working in a cubicle, wearing a short sleeve white shirt and tie like Dilbert. Instead, I am setting up my next multi-month trip to Latin America that was made possible because I can work where ever I have a laptop and an internet connection.

Thanks for this post. I'm a professional software developer as well (5 yrs racked up currently) for a big multinational company, and it is very surprising how good the job market in this industry is. My bosses constantly complain about not being able to find decent people - we have several positions open and we can't find the people. Truly amazing in this economy when everybody else is hurting. Recently I got really hyped up about the whole "digital nomad" and "4 hour weekend" ideas, and realized that my occupation could be one of the most ideal to pursue this lifestyle, especially with the job market (in this industry) being what it is. Even at my current job we already have a few people teleworking - my boss for example lives in Seattle full time and our R&D offices are here in Scottsdale, AZ and Hollywood, CA. He flies in maybe once or twice a month for a few days, otherwise we communicate by IM emails, phone, teleconferencing, etc. There are more people like this here, but mostly on the higher level, and highly skilled with seniority.

But it got me thinking, if I were to look for a new job (I prolly cannot pull it off at my current job), and specifically state that I need to be teleworking, with set visits to the office maybe 4 times a year so that I could live outside of USA. How feasible is this? Or would the freelancing path be a better one? Having a long term job with american money while living as king (and STILL saving more than home) somewhere in SEA or SA would be like living the fucking dream... while not compromising my career or financial development.

PS: My experience is mostly web apps (javascript, jQuery), Flash (and Flex), and Perl on the server side. Various other technologies in small and personal projects.

Post: #15

I think companies learned a valuable lesson when they outsourced programming jobs to India, then had to pay to hire an American to clean up the crap they got back.

For whoever was asking what the best stuff to specialize in would be, most job listings are for web development at some level. Either databases (learn SQL), scripting (learn python/php/perl), design (wear a scarf and learn dreamweaver), or maintenance (misc. Linux skills).

College kids coming out of school with a shiny CS degree learn pretty quick that all the algorithms and C++ they learned has limited employment value versus any web stuff they managed to pick up.

Post: #16

What do you guys think the intermediate term prospects for programmers are like? I've seen some people describe social media as "bubble 2.0" - is there a chance that the bubble will burst and all the Ruby developers will be out of work?

I've thought about trying to get into this line of work. I learned to program on Apple IIs at school when I was a kid, and did a bunch of MATLAB stuff in college. I think I definitely have a knack for it, but I have never learned serious application or web development, mainly because I never had a project I was dying to create and have been dismayed by all the reports of programming being dead as a career for Americans (which contradicts what I'm reading here, obviously).

Post: #17

(12-21-2011 10:04 PM)SVK Wrote:  But it got me thinking, if I were to look for a new job (I prolly cannot pull it off at my current job), and specifically state that I need to be teleworking, with set visits to the office maybe 4 times a year so that I could live outside of USA. How feasible is this? Or would the freelancing path be a better one? Having a long term job with american money while living as king (and STILL saving more than home) somewhere in SEA or SA would be like living the fucking dream... while not compromising my career or financial development.

PS: My experience is mostly web apps (javascript, jQuery), Flash (and Flex), and Perl on the server side. Various other technologies in small and personal projects.

It is definitely doable, but finding an employer that flexible can be a challenge. However, more and more companies, particularly consulting shops, are going this route. If you are familiar with the guys at 37signals, most of their developers telecommute. Probably the safest and easiest choice would be to start building up a freelance business. Build up your business and eventually you will have enough clients to warrant leaving your existing job. The biggest issue with this is that now YOU have to manage retirement costs, health insurance, taxes, etc.

Are you single, and do you own a home or have other pressing financial commitments. One thing I did was that when I left my job I set up my lifestyle so that I could imediately downgrade if work slowed.

I remember being kind of bummed that I would have to hold off on buying that condo I wanted in 2007. Not buying that place turned out to be the single best financial decision I ever made. The fucker dropped in value by 50% in a matter of years. Now, I am considering picking up a similar condo, along with a smaller one in Miami or Vegas for about the same price as I was going to pay for the one back in 2007.

Post: #18

(12-22-2011 06:42 AM)Irminsul Wrote:  What do you guys think the intermediate term prospects for programmers are like? I've seen some people describe social media as "bubble 2.0" - is there a chance that the bubble will burst and all the Ruby developers will be out of work?

I started in IT 6 years ago because there weren't enough IT engineers. Six years later, the situation is still the same or even worse (at least in Europe).

I am talking about normal businesses here, not Web 2.0. Switching languages and frameworks is not a hard thing to do once you have experience in one.

Post: #19

(12-23-2011 05:45 AM)bface Wrote:  

(12-22-2011 06:42 AM)Irminsul Wrote:  What do you guys think the intermediate term prospects for programmers are like? I've seen some people describe social media as "bubble 2.0" - is there a chance that the bubble will burst and all the Ruby developers will be out of work?

I started in IT 6 years ago because there weren't enough IT engineers. Six years later, the situation is still the same or even worse (at least in Europe).

I am talking about normal businesses here, not Web 2.0. Switching languages and frameworks is not a hard thing to do once you have experience in one.

Great point.

The media gets hyped about "social networking" or "web 2.0" when in reality those are just the next big thing. The core programming skills transcend specific languages or uses.

Here is the deal. The fundamentals of programming is manipulating and using data. That is it. Whether it is the data you put on your Facebook page, or the data a pilot inputs via the controls of a Boeing 787. It is all just data.

What we are dealing with now is a complete data explosion. One that shows no sign of slowing down. It is almost incomprehensible how much data is being produced. Along with that, hardware to process this data is getting faster and faster, while storage media is getting smaller, cheaper, and growing in capacity.

Now add to that the fact that more and more people are carrying around smartphones that not only have more computing power than the PC I learned to program on in college. They also have voice and video recording, along with GPS embedded into the system. Google is activating about 700,000 new Android smartphones A DAY. I honestly cannot fathom all of the possible applications that will spring from this kind of data explosion.

We haven't even begun to figure out all of the ways that we can manipulate this data. We certainly don't have enough people to do it now. The future opportunities are truly amazing.

Post: #20

I just started going through an easy book on Python. It sells on Amazon, and the whole thing is available online for free as well. The site is here.

The book shows you how to program by giving you simple games in Python and their source code. I love the setup because it sets a goal that requires you to learn the concepts involved. I lose my motivation pretty quickly when I'm given a bunch of tools with no clear application or reason to use them.

If you know of any resources like this, on other languages, please share. It looks like the author Ellie Quigley has something along these lines.

If anyone wants to commit to learning stuff publicly (it helps you from flaking out on it), add a post here.

Post: #21

(12-31-2011 03:58 PM)basilransom Wrote:  If anyone wants to commit to learning stuff publicly (it helps you from flaking out on it), add a post here.

I will. I can't start for the next two weeks because I have two big tests, and applications to send, but I will start.

We have already started some programming in two of my classes, but I'll be learning on my own, too. I'll try and update this thread with my plan.

Post: #22

So, you programmer guys, what are realistic timelines to learn a language and fundamental programming skills from scratch, to the point you can actually be useful to companies?

Say I wanted for example a junior programmer position in Javascript (or actually, to do contract/telecommute/freelance work)

Personally I have a strong mathematical/analytical mind (Physics degree and Economics Masters), with a course in propositional logic, but no real programming experience.

Is it realistic to get to a point where I could earn some decent money freelancing with, say, 6 months intensive study and practice? Or is that a pipedream?

Post: #23

edit

Post: #24

Lots of good C/C++ stuff out there. Google for it.

Post: #25

(12-23-2011 05:45 AM)bface Wrote:  

(12-22-2011 06:42 AM)Irminsul Wrote:  What do you guys think the intermediate term prospects for programmers are like? I've seen some people describe social media as "bubble 2.0" - is there a chance that the bubble will burst and all the Ruby developers will be out of work?

I started in IT 6 years ago because there weren't enough IT engineers. Six years later, the situation is still the same or even worse (at least in Europe).

I am talking about normal businesses here, not Web 2.0. Switching languages and frameworks is not a hard thing to do once you have experience in one.

Where in Europe are you working? Where all is there LACK of good IT people?