Post: #351

(04-19-2019 02:24 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  Attacking concrete is a dogwhistle for racists.

There go the grout expectations everyone had for this thread.

Post: #352

Don't fire investigations take a long time? When this news broke while it was still burning, they were already labeling it an "accidental fire". Would think the contractor would want to defend their reputation and have a thorough investigation, not to mention their insurance company. Makes me think it was arson, and the gov will just pay the contractor to shut up.

Post: #353

Daily Mail Wrote:A 'computer glitch' may have been behind the fast-spreading fire that ravaged Notre Dame, the cathedral's rector said on Friday.
...
The Parisien newspaper has reported that investigators are considering whether the fire could be linked to a computer glitch or related to temporary elevators used in the renovation that was underway at the time the cathedral caught fire.
...
Bishop Patrick Chauvet did not elaborate on the nature of the cause but said 'we may find out what happened in two or three months.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...olikoSmHSA

So do they already know that it was a computer glitch (since when do elevators spontaneously catch fire because of computer glitches?), or will we find out what happened in 2-3 months? Which is it?

Post: #354

(04-19-2019 08:49 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Daily Mail Wrote:A 'computer glitch' may have been behind the fast-spreading fire that ravaged Notre Dame, the cathedral's rector said on Friday.
...
The Parisien newspaper has reported that investigators are considering whether the fire could be linked to a computer glitch or related to temporary elevators used in the renovation that was underway at the time the cathedral caught fire.
...
Bishop Patrick Chauvet did not elaborate on the nature of the cause but said 'we may find out what happened in two or three months.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...olikoSmHSA

So do they already know that it was a computer glitch (since when do elevators spontaneously catch fire because of computer glitches?), or will we find out what happened in 2-3 months? Which is it?

I work in IT systems. If someone says glitch, it means they don't know what the fuck happened. No proof or details on the source of the issue, so they describe it as a glitch - something random. Random things don't happen in computer systems, they operate on 0s and 1s.

Secondly, how can you give a timeframe for something that is so undefined? If its a system issue, someone could figure it out within days, or months, depending on how the analysis goes. This is a shit show.

Computer Fucking Glitch. Give me a break

Post: #355

(04-19-2019 10:37 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  

(04-19-2019 08:49 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Daily Mail Wrote:A 'computer glitch' may have been behind the fast-spreading fire that ravaged Notre Dame, the cathedral's rector said on Friday.
...
The Parisien newspaper has reported that investigators are considering whether the fire could be linked to a computer glitch or related to temporary elevators used in the renovation that was underway at the time the cathedral caught fire.
...
Bishop Patrick Chauvet did not elaborate on the nature of the cause but said 'we may find out what happened in two or three months.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...olikoSmHSA

So do they already know that it was a computer glitch (since when do elevators spontaneously catch fire because of computer glitches?), or will we find out what happened in 2-3 months? Which is it?

I work in IT systems. If someone says glitch, it means they don't know what the fuck happened. No proof or details on the source of the issue, so they describe it as a glitch - something random. Random things don't happen in computer systems, they operate on 0s and 1s.

Secondly, how can you give a timeframe for something that is so undefined? If its a system issue, someone could figure it out within days, or months, depending on how the analysis goes. This is a shit show.

Computer Fucking Glitch. Give me a break

How do computer glitches produce heat to create analog sparks?

This would be like my PS4 bluescreening and my toaster springing because of it

Post: #356

(04-19-2019 11:11 PM)Syberpunk Wrote:  How do computer glitches produce heat to create analog sparks?

This would be like my PS4 bluescreening and my toaster springing because of it

The only thing I can think of would be infecting their computer network with a zero day virus like Stuxnet
This virus managed to speed up centrifuges remotely and cooked them
Wouldn't it be possible to write code to ultimately cause fire?
Perhaps this is what the Bishop was speculating?

Post: #357

A computer glitch can have real world ramifications depending on what the computer actually controls.

For example if the computer thinks the elevator is on the ground floor rather than the top floor and continues attempting to raise it to the top floor even though it's already there then the engine could overheat and catch fire. There are supposed to be safeguards against this sort of stuff but it's not impossible for it to fuck up completely.

Still, the choice of language is bizarre. "Computer glitch"? Why not just say "we're looking at a fault in the elevator"? These days "computer glitch" is the simpleton's wave of the hand that say "this is nobody's fault, not really, the computer just glitched!" To 90% of the population computers are functionally magical artifacts and when they behave in ways that are unintended it's seen as an inexplicable failure of that strange magic rather than a simple software or hardware error that's not only correctable but preventable.

Post: #358

There have been many cases of elevator engines catching fire, true, but what's true as well is that elevators are designed to transport people, so such systems must come equipped with a shitload of alarms and containment measures - otherwise people would be incinerated by elevator fires all the time.

https://www.wtva.com/content/news/Elevat...05801.html
https://www.concordmonitor.com/Elevator-...d-24699528
https://www.newschannel5.com/news/crews-...vator-fire
https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/...d-business
https://www.abc15.com/news/region-southe...iesta-mall

Post: #359

A computer glitch is just a transition phrase to get us softened up and ready to blame it on Russian bots.

Post: #360

(04-20-2019 07:52 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Still, the choice of language is bizarre. "Computer glitch"? Why not just say "we're looking at a fault in the elevator"? These days "computer glitch" is the simpleton's wave of the hand that say "this is nobody's fault, not really, the computer just glitched!" To 90% of the population computers are functionally magical artifacts and when they behave in ways that are unintended it's seen as an inexplicable failure of that strange magic rather than a simple software or hardware error that's not only correctable but preventable.

I think there's some confusing language being used in the American news stories. What I had originally read was that a computer glitch may have caused the fire alarm system to report a fire in the wrong place, which is why it was cleared as a false alarm. (This is actually pretty plausible. I know it's easy enough to map a sensor to the wrong location when working with home automation, etc., although if that's what happened, it tells me they didn't bother to test each sensor individually.)

Separately, the fire itself may have been caused by a malfunctioning elevator installed for construction work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/world...afety.html

According to this, it takes six minutes to climb a set of stairs to the attic. (Again, this stinks of people not thinking the system all the way through and being negligent about testing. Surely in a drill, someone, anyone would say "this is stupid and will not work".)

So:

- The first alarm went off at 6:20.

- At 6:26, it was cleared as a false alarm - obviously prematurely/negligently.

- The second alarm went off at 6:43.

- At 6:49, the workers reached the top of the stairs and discovered that there was not only a fire, but that it was already out of control. Apparently, while descending the staircase, they realized they'd locked the attic behind them and turned back to open it again.

- At 6:51, the fire was finally reported to the Paris fire department.

A deliberate decision had been made not to install firewalls or sprinklers in the attic because it would involve altering the structure. There's some discussion in the article that the designer was apparently under the impression that thick timber would burn slowly, but didn't understand that it would spread through the surface rapidly.

Isn't there some old joke about how in heaven the engineers are German and the cooks are French, but in hell the engineers are French and the cooks are German?

Post: #361

I'm familiar with fire alarm systems and like all devices they're only as reliable as the retards operating them.

I wasn't on shift at the time but something similar happened in a place I worked at once. Fire alarm. Fire department arrives. Checks area. Finds no fire. Marks detector as faulty. About to leave when another alarm goes off on the other side of the building. Check it out to find fire well underway.

Turns out someone had altered the area codes for the detectors without altering the text boxes that came up to direct the responders so they initially went to the wrong end of the building.

Still, my workplace wasn't exactly the Notre Fucking Dame.

Post: #362

That article is actually surprisingly thorough and makes sense. Certainly much better and more convincing than the lame "oh it was the reconstruction" explanation that was first trotted out.

Post: #363

Quote:Isn't there some old joke about how in heaven the engineers are German and the cooks are French, but in hell the engineers are French and the cooks are German?

In Heaven...the lovers are all Italian, the chefs are all French, the staff are all British and the Germans run everything.

In Hell... the lovers are all German, the chefs are all British, the the staff are all French and the Italians run everything.

Post: #364

(04-20-2019 01:34 PM)Caractacus Potts Wrote:  

Quote:Isn't there some old joke about how in heaven the engineers are German and the cooks are French, but in hell the engineers are French and the cooks are German?

In Heaven...the lovers are all Italian, the chefs are all French, the staff are all British and the Germans run everything.

In Hell... the lovers are all German, the chefs are all British, the the staff are all French and the Italians run everything.

version I heard

In Heaven, the police are British, the mechanics are German, chefs are French, in hell, police are German, mechanics are French, chefs are British.

Not really true in my experience, as the interactions I've had with German police (my faults), they were reasonable and polite.

Post: #365

Maybe that one should be updated for the 21st century:

No one knows what heaven is like, but in hell, the lovers are Afghan, the chefs are Afghan, the engineers are Afghan, and all the staff are Afghan as well.

Post: #366

I also work in information technology. Most of the time, we just don't want to try to explain to end users and the public what really happens underneath the hood. It's almost like we are speaking a foreign language to them. Plus, we know that users love to point fingers and yell at IT people, even though these users often have no idea what they are talking about. Plus, if the explanation is really detailed, users will just get confused and misquote us.

I've lost count the number of times IT managers have said to me that we should "know your audience." We are basically told to give out information that we think the users need to know. Often a word like glitch comes up because we don't want to take ten minutes to explain what happened. Plus, a lot of these users are idiots, and these problems happen because they are idiots.

Bottom line, IT people generally don't respect the public and users. I suspect this is why the users and the public often don't trust them. It's also a very dishonest profession. I've lost count the number of times I have wanted to say to some user that "you are a moron" and haven't done so.

Post: #367

(04-21-2019 06:20 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(04-20-2019 01:34 PM)Caractacus Potts Wrote:  

Quote:Isn't there some old joke about how in heaven the engineers are German and the cooks are French, but in hell the engineers are French and the cooks are German?

In Heaven...the lovers are all Italian, the chefs are all French, the staff are all British and the Germans run everything.

In Hell... the lovers are all German, the chefs are all British, the the staff are all French and the Italians run everything.

version I heard

In Heaven, the police are British, the mechanics are German, chefs are French, in hell, police are German, mechanics are French, chefs are British.

Not really true in my experience, as the interactions I've had with German police (my faults), they were reasonable and polite.

You forgot the Swiss:
In Heaven, the police are British, the mechanics are German, the chefs are French, the lovers are Italian, and everything is run by the Swiss

In Hell, the police are German, the mechanics are French, the chefs are British, the lovers are Swiss, and everything is run by the Italians.

Post: #368

Blow Torch on 300 Year Old Oak Beam

Post: #369

(04-21-2019 11:30 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  Blow Torch on 300 Year Old Oak Beam

In this case, burning down the cathedral is beyond anything a random vibrant would think to bring.

We are either talking a highly educated terrorist or a state-level actor. But whom is a big question.

And to think they were already condemning "Conspiracy Theories" as the fire was still burning. I guess we'll only find out who caused it by looking at any sudden French foreign policy shifts.

As for the blow torch video itself, I think it'd be very beneficial to spread it on the French internet.

Post: #370

(04-21-2019 09:30 AM)beta_plus Wrote:  

(04-21-2019 06:20 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

(04-20-2019 01:34 PM)Caractacus Potts Wrote:  

Quote:Isn't there some old joke about how in heaven the engineers are German and the cooks are French, but in hell the engineers are French and the cooks are German?

In Heaven...the lovers are all Italian, the chefs are all French, the staff are all British and the Germans run everything.

In Hell... the lovers are all German, the chefs are all British, the the staff are all French and the Italians run everything.

version I heard

In Heaven, the police are British, the mechanics are German, chefs are French, in hell, police are German, mechanics are French, chefs are British.

Not really true in my experience, as the interactions I've had with German police (my faults), they were reasonable and polite.

You forgot the Swiss:
In Heaven, the police are British, the mechanics are German, the chefs are French, the lovers are Italian, and everything is run by the Swiss

In Hell, the police are German, the mechanics are French, the chefs are British, the lovers are Swiss, and everything is run by the Italians.

Smiled at the bolded, my grandparents used to have a FIAT car which earned the well know acronym: Fix It Again Tomorrow.

Post: #371

That video doesn't prove much except that the fire was unlikely started by deliberately putting a blowtorch on an oak beam for five minutes.

What are they attempting to prove? That oak is fireproof? The place burned. The only question is how. A sustained fire near the oak would (and obviously did) cause the oak beams to catch fire. Lighting a fireplace 150 times a year for a decade teaches you a few things, one of which is that if you apply a small amount of heat for a long time then the larger body of wood simply acts as a heat sink and you get no fire. Put 5 blowtorches against that oak beam for 1 minute instead and you might have a different outcome.

Post: #372

Post: #373

(04-22-2019 03:45 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Lighting a fireplace 150 times a year for a decade teaches you a few things

So, do you build your fires top-down or bottom-up ?

Post: #374

Bottom up of course, but if your accelerant is strong enough it doesn't even matter.

Post: #375

Vice interviews young "parisians", few of whom are white of course.

https://i-d.vice.com/en_us/article/gy4bx...sians-feel

One 17 year old muslim, Adam, shows some ability for empathy.

Quote:What does the loss of the building represent for you?
I’m a Muslim, and we have to respect other religions. So I respect the Christians who are sad about this. If Mecca were burning I’d really be upset.

African muslim Dieynabo, while falsely identifying as french, is also able to express proper reaction:

Quote:What does it mean to you, to see Notre-Dame burn?
I’m a practicing Muslim, but I’m French, so for me this is first and foremost about history and heritage. So to see this sort of building burn — it hurts. I remember my first visit there when I was in Year 6, I was awed by mankind’s ability to build something so beautiful. It goes beyond any sort of institutionalised worship.

Last up is Jonathan, a journalist from quote: "Israel, Germany and Paris". He has another quite different take on it:

Quote:What were your feelings when you heard the news?
I thought it was sad but beautiful. It was an important lesson: Nothing lasts forever –– everything comes to an end. We’re watching the beginning of a new modernity; religion and the Church don’t have the same influence they did before, and it’s always a good thing when white men lose their power.

There you have it.

Symptom or cause.