Post: #51

Quote:Not looking at you, Samseau, on that last sentence. I'm thinking more of people like Jay Dyer who have endless theological points, sub-points, references to obscure church fathers, and then end up calling people who disagree with them dum dums, characters, retards, or tell them they argue like girls. They may mention the word love once in a blue moon, but all they have for dissenters is mockery and condescension.

Yeah, that's bad. Apparently this guy missed the part where Jesus said calling your brother a fool can render you liable to hellfire

And Paul understood this the same way, teaching "Revilers shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Quote:Using your own passage from scripture, it is very obvious that what was important to Jesus was that we love God and each other.

It's literally the foundation of Christ's thought and every single teaching he has can be reduced back to the greatest commandments. Christ teaches a consistent philosophical system based around these two principles. It's actually genius in its simplicity and scale.

For a pastor or Church not to mention this does a grave disservice to anyone trying to learn or follow Christ's teachings.

Post: #52

Here's a helpful document from a Greek Orthodox church about what living the Orthodox life entails:

http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/our-fa...ntprogram/

Post: #53

(03-15-2019 11:41 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  

(03-15-2019 11:18 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  The anti-Catholic brainwashing is strong here.

If you're going to attack at the Church ( and there is plenty to pick at, because they're not in a great place right now under Francis's leadership) you could do better than to recite the talking points of Christian Zionists like Jack Chick.

What is the brainwashing? I've never seen one this Jack Chick guys cartoons in my life.

Chick Tracts

Enjoy. The tracts pretty much rip on every religion that's not Christian Fundamentalism. I have never seen one where the Orthodox Church is attacked before.

Post: #54

(03-14-2019 02:04 PM)samifon Wrote:  Orthodox Christianity is not the true faith. There are a myriad of un-biblical doctrines and practices.

1) The trinity doctrine. The bible clearly states that God, the Father is one. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim 2:5, John 17:1)

2) Using intermediaries. (Praying to Saints, Confessing to a Priest.) (1 Tim 2:5)

3) Warped view of sexuality. Polygamy is good and there are no prohibitions against premarital sex. (2 Samuel 12:8, Leviticus 18)

4) Easter and Christmas are pagan holidays modified for Christianity.

I am here as a resource, given that I am eastern orthodox and am convinced it is the one, true church --- that is, the body of the god-man who is known as Jesus Christ in the English language.

None of the above criticisms are remotely legitimate or convincing to anyone who knows what the gospel (evangelion) is.

First, the gospel of Matthew quotes Jesus of Nazareth commanding us Christians to make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... and He will be with us until the end of the ages.

Second, the Church is the God of the living, we all pray for one another, anything else misunderstands scripture and what the church is. Thinking the Saints are "dead" when we "live" is breathtakingly silly at best, stupid at worst.

Third, sex outside of the context of marriage is not accepted as proper. Not knowing this is astonishing.

Fourth, and I can explain this further, anything capable of being christianized ... was. One should have more knowledge before making very weak criticisms ... without knowledge of history nor the Gospel.

My best to all.

Post: #55

(03-16-2019 06:27 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(03-14-2019 02:04 PM)samifon Wrote:  Orthodox Christianity is not the true faith. There are a myriad of un-biblical doctrines and practices.

1) The trinity doctrine. The bible clearly states that God, the Father is one. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim 2:5, John 17:1)

2) Using intermediaries. (Praying to Saints, Confessing to a Priest.) (1 Tim 2:5)

3) Warped view of sexuality. Polygamy is good and there are no prohibitions against premarital sex. (2 Samuel 12:8, Leviticus 18)

4) Easter and Christmas are pagan holidays modified for Christianity.

I am here as a resource, given that I am eastern orthodox and am convinced it is the one, true church --- that is, the body of the god-man who is known as Jesus Christ in the English language.

None of the above criticisms are remotely legitimate or convincing to anyone who knows what the gospel (evangelion) is.

First, the gospel of Matthew quotes Jesus of Nazareth commanding us Christians to make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... and He will be with us until the end of the ages.

Second, the Church is the God of the living, we all pray for one another, anything else misunderstands scripture and what the church is. Thinking the Saints are "dead" when we "live" is breathtakingly silly at best, stupid at worst.

Third, sex outside of the context of marriage is not accepted as proper. Not knowing this is astonishing.

Fourth, and I can explain this further, anything capable of being christianized ... was. One should have more knowledge before making very weak criticisms ... without knowledge of history nor the Gospel.

My best to all.

I find that with the fourth point you mentioned, the ones who attack the Church does not know history that well and just tend to cherry pick whatever fits their views from the Bible.

Post: #56

Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.

Post: #57

(03-16-2019 06:27 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(03-14-2019 02:04 PM)samifon Wrote:  Orthodox Christianity is not the true faith. There are a myriad of un-biblical doctrines and practices.

1) The trinity doctrine. The bible clearly states that God, the Father is one. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim 2:5, John 17:1)

2) Using intermediaries. (Praying to Saints, Confessing to a Priest.) (1 Tim 2:5)

3) Warped view of sexuality. Polygamy is good and there are no prohibitions against premarital sex. (2 Samuel 12:8, Leviticus 18)

4) Easter and Christmas are pagan holidays modified for Christianity.

I am here as a resource, given that I am eastern orthodox and am convinced it is the one, true church --- that is, the body of the god-man who is known as Jesus Christ in the English language.

None of the above criticisms are remotely legitimate or convincing to anyone who knows what the gospel (evangelion) is.

First, the gospel of Matthew quotes Jesus of Nazareth commanding us Christians to make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... and He will be with us until the end of the ages.

Quote:Second, the Church is the God of the living, we all pray for one another, anything else misunderstands scripture and what the church is. Thinking the Saints are "dead" when we "live" is breathtakingly silly at best, stupid at worst.

Third, sex outside of the context of marriage is not accepted as proper. Not knowing this is astonishing.

Fourth, and I can explain this further, anything capable of being christianized ... was. One should have more knowledge before making very weak criticisms ... without knowledge of history nor the Gospel.

My best to all.

What evidence is there that saints actually hear our requests for prayer? In addition given the number of believers and the fact that they are not omnipresent or omniscient as God.

In a normal human circle I could ask a person to pray for me. But those saints would be receiving thousands every milisecond.

Post: #58

(03-16-2019 06:54 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.

I think many of them would respond that they have always been the true and original church.

Post: #59

What's the consensus on these mega-churches in America with all the dancing and the singing? Like the ones that Joel Osteen preaches at. Are these guys legit Christians or what?

Post: #60

(03-16-2019 08:03 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  What's the consensus on these mega-churches in America with all the dancing and the singing? Like the ones that Joel Osteen preaches at. Are these guys legit Christians or what?

Heresies and abominations that should be extinguished from existence. I always felt that those kinds of places are "wrong" and "creepy".

Post: #61

Joel Osteen and most megachurch pastors preach a counterfeit gospel. It's basically motivational speaking packaged in a Christian veneer. The message being essentially, "God wants you to be happy! God wants you to be successful! Turn to God and everything in your life will be ok!" This is a very appealing message on the surface, so it's understandable why these "pastors" build such large followings, but it is not in line with the true teachings of Christianity. It's simply another perversion of the faith, no different in effect than the ultra liberals who have been infiltrating and promoting homosexuality in the church for decades. Just a perversion of a different type, one that excuses a lust for the things of the world instead of a lust for flesh.

The reality is that God doesn't want you to be happy, he wants you to be faithful, humble and loving (and paradoxically we must often first become unhappy to become those other things). And God isn't concerned with your worldly possessions at all, but rather encourages you to build up treasures in heaven. And finally, far from everything in this life being ok, we are promised nothing but trial and tribulation, and ultimately death. Properly understood, Christianity is not a system of belief that enriches one's temporal life, but rather girds us to face the unrelenting trials of life while helping us maintain our focus on the eternal existence that awaits us after death.

And this is ultimately why Osteen and other mega-preachers fail so badly as representatives of the true gospel: their messages are almost exclusively focused on making people feel better. But if you actually understand the message of the gospel your first reaction will be to feel much worse, as you begin to understand the nature and ramifications of sin and death. Which is the entire point: realizing the utter hopelessness of your position and willfully embracing Christ as your savior. Osteen-style Christianity is very superficial in this regard, as is most Protestant Christianity these days. They used to preach hellfire and brimstone for a reason. It wasn't just to scare people. It was because that's literally the first and most necessary part of the gospel message. You can't convince people they should accept Christ as savior if you don't first make it very clear what he's saving them from.

Post: #62

Lets say for instance that Orthodox is the true church as @Kurgan believes. He seems to have some very defensable points.
>> Does that mean that all Orthodox Christians are saved ? There must be bad apples
>> Does that mean that none of the other Christians will be saved? There must be good and devoted

It might be that Orthodox has the most spiritual services or the tightest doctrine, but how is a layman to know except to do his/her absolute best with humility. If we keep following this line, it could also be that Orthodox (or another sect) get saved more often because their teachings are more in line.

My understanding is that the True Church/Body is defined by God:
Those who are saved by God in ordinary times + Those who are Gods Church at time of tribulation (Essentially the same thing).

I struggle to fully wrap my head or heart around the evangelical fervour. How are we supposed to balance searching for God with your heart vs. reading scripture and understanding. It has its power, and maybe I am still on the outside, but you tend to get believers who know very little. It seems to be more of a characteristic of that Church, in which I am sure there are true believers. Consider the following 4 passages, 3 of which point to things beyond faith:

(1) Faith and belief in Jesus Christ: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life" John 3:16

(2) Not Judging: “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7: 1 -2

(3) Following the Law: "22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ - Matthew 7:22-23

(4) Seeking God: “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Matthew 7:7-8

Post: #63

(03-16-2019 06:54 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.

Original church can be debated.

True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.

Choosing the most theologically consistent church doesn't guarantee you will be part of the true church.

Failure to distinguish between these two concepts has tripped up a lot of people.

Orthodox Christians included.

Post: #64

(03-16-2019 08:01 PM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

(03-16-2019 06:54 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.

I think many of them would respond that they have always been the true and original church.

I'm sure that some would, but what would be their basis? They already derive from the very church they commonly gripe against, or are disgusted by, and they didn't exist until the 16th century, they changed doctrine countless times, cannot discern who has authority over what ... the list goes on and on.

Post: #65

(03-17-2019 11:36 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(03-16-2019 06:54 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.

Original church can be debated.

True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.

Choosing the most theologically consistent church doesn't guarantee you will be part of the true church.

Failure to distinguish between these two concepts has tripped up a lot of people.

Orthodox Christians included.

The original church will always be debated, of course, that's why we are here.

Quote:True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.

This is your invention, it does not have basis in the any aspect of what is known by all as christianity, neither tradition, history or even the holy scriptures, which the true church decided on as to which are reliable. If you really think about it, it renders the word and concept of church (assembly) as totally meaningless. You are confusing this, sadly, with the concept of salvation, something which is a preoccupation and inserted into every thought of the western scholastic mind.

Quote:Choosing the most theologically consistent church doesn't guarantee you will be part of the true church.

Again, terminology is off, rendering the statement meaningless. You are making a salvation statement, and I can tell you what the teaching of the true church is on salvation, but because it is the true church, I cannot tell you that I, for example, will be on the side of the sheep or the goats because I don't make that decision.

Recognizing what the true church is does not necessarily say anything about salvation.

The demons knew Christ was the Son of God. They knew, and know, the truth. But do they apply it in order to live in faithfulness to Him?

You know the answer.

Post: #66

(03-17-2019 10:17 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(03-17-2019 11:36 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.

This is your invention, it does not have basis in the any aspect of what is known by all as christianity, neither tradition, history or even the holy scriptures, which the true church decided on as to which are reliable. If you really think about it, it renders the word and concept of church (assembly) as totally meaningless. You are confusing this, sadly, with the concept of salvation, something which is a preoccupation and inserted into every thought of the western scholastic mind.

I think you are deep in the weeds on this issue. This kind of nit picking legalism is my chief objection to internet Orthodox Christians.

This kind of debate does nothing to further the aims of Christianity of any kind.

You are wandering into this territory:

Quote:Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the Law. These things are useless and worthless.

The idea that the true church is internal and between God and each person is my invention is extremely odd. It is a concept called 'the body of Christ.' and is widely understood. I figured readers could make the connection on their own.

But you didn't because you are looking for something to argue about.

1 Corinthians 13:

Quote:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Your contentious, either/or kind of thinking is anathema to understanding the work of Jesus.

What I wrote doesn't make church meaningless. Christians pray and read scripture and try to find a good community to be a part of. That's what they do.

Yet even so, in every church, there are people who are faking it, or going through the motions, or whatever, and aren't part of the body of Christ, that is, the invisible church, and all that will be revealed eventually.

There are even Bible verses saying that people who don't even believe in Jesus or belong to a church can be part of the invisible church based on what is in their hearts.

Romans 2:14-15:

Quote:For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

This doesn't mean Christianity is then pointless.

It just means that God knows what is in the heart and we don't.

Quote:Recognizing what the true church is does not necessarily say anything about salvation.

Dude, you know I love you but this is goofy.

Salvation is all that matters, but, judging by your line of talk, you'd rather prove your church is the true church than have salvation.

There are billions of people being saved by their faith in Jesus, and they attend Orthodox churches and Catholic ones and non denominational ones, and Evangelical ones, even the snake handling kind, or the Mega Church kind, and there even people who don't believe in Jesus who are being saved.

It is because they follow the main two rules that Samseau listed earlier, and not because they can win arguments on the internet.

Jesus is about love, which is the furthest thing from either/or thinking you could imagine.

Salvation doesn't go to the best debater.

If the Orthodox church is the right one for you or anyone else you will figure that out eventually, and that is fine.

My only point is that the issue of original church, in a worldly sense, is moot.

It is an internet issue. Just another subject to talk about.

Post: #67

The idea of a "true" church is itself heretical and forbidden by Jesus, something it seems all hardcore Christians forget about.

Mark 9:38

Quote:38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

Christ foresaw the potential for sectarianism and forbade it, yet it did not stop the Great Schism. Houellebecq says it was all downhill for Western Civilization after that moment

Quote:Joel Osteen and most megachurch pastors preach a counterfeit gospel.

I think Osteen's case is a bit more complicated than that.

Even if Joel Osteen is a false prophet, he is not against Christ and still performs acts of charity to his followers. Although I agree with you that Osteen focuses too much on wealth and success, I see similar problems in many Orthodox and Catholic Churches that create lavish marble and gold altars, mahogany pews and doors, intricate paintings and stained glass, etc, even if these Churches preach more closely to Christ's teachings than most.

Christ does imply that if you fix your spiritual life, you will be rewarded in this life or the next. So it's not like God cannot reward his followers with wealth or success, its just that it's not God's primary concern.

Matthew 6:31 (Second Chapter of Sermon on the Mount)

Quote:31 “So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?’ 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. 33 Seek the Kingdom of God[e] above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.

Most have interpreted this passage to imply that God does not care about material things, but still can and does give his followers wealth or success of any kind (fame, women, etc) as a reward to the faithful. But ultimately it's about what you need.

Thus, some people might need the wealth or success so that they may do greater works in His name later in life (see: parable of the talents). Most are given enough, but never too much, as God knows that wealth and success are spiritually toxic for most people. The people who get "enough" to get by form the great bulk of the salt of the earth of God's flock. (The middle class)

The correct message is not to worry about wealth or success. Pray for what you want, but trust that God will give you what you need. And ultimately, I think Osteen and other prosperity gospels come somewhat close to this message, even if he does embellish or lie about the teachings by promising more wealth or success than what God intends to give.

But like those with purple-pill teachings, Osteen's of the world are useful for drawing people more to Christ since there is a huge chance they will read the Bible on their own and discover His true teachings, thereby finding salvation.

Far more destructive are the false prophets that turn out to be pedophiles or other dangerous criminals. Osteen being a bit of a charlatan is less harmful than it is good, at least it seems that way and I hope it is. So I do not judge him.

Post: #68

(03-16-2019 09:20 PM)scorpion Wrote:  And finally, far from everything in this life being ok, we are promised nothing but trial and tribulation, and ultimately death. Properly understood, Christianity is not a system of belief that enriches one's temporal life, but rather girds us to face the unrelenting trials of life while helping us maintain our focus on the eternal existence that awaits us after death.

This is what I got from my latest read of new testament as well.
Finding out that the world is evil and there is a malevolent ruler in this world that hates you and does everything it can to destroy your soul is not something that gives you wealth and material power.
I don't know where the idea that God gives you money and cars like some magick sigil came from, but it's ingrained in people's minds.

Post: #69

debeguiled you are under a lot of false assumptions

(03-16-2019 11:39 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  I have attended many services in Protestant and Evangelical churches and they all understand this perfectly well.

Protestants and Evangelicals are the same thing. Difference is just rhetorical. There are only three types of Christians : Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant. Maybe you can add to that count some extinct types like Gnostic, to which you once claimed to belong. But whether Gnostic are other type of Christians or a completly different thing is up to debate as there were many types of Gnostics as well.

It seems you are not the only guy who claim he is not an Orthodox, Catholic or a Protestant, but still a Christian. Spectrumwalker implied similarly. You are all wrong trough. You are all clueless protestants.

(03-16-2019 11:39 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  The once saved always saved types are no different from the Catholics who sin with impunity because they have the sacrament of confession.

I have lived my whole life among Catholics and no serious Catholic believes and behaves that way. It is just one slanders and excuses protestants come up with all the time without thorough examination. The same with Protestant claims that Catholics or Orthodox worship Mary as God. They do not.

Catholics and Orthodox are religions with true spirituality and holy mystery in them, but that makes them not easily understandable for the rational mind untempered in love, asceticism and holy communion of saints. Protestantism is just trying to put these larger then human mind categories in a more compact format, so that anyone could understand. But in the process to much gets chopped off, especially the true holy mysteries. It's Procrustean bed. Protestantism is atheism beta version, an attempt to get rid of all things that stand above reason, but are valid in spiritual practitioners experience.

Post: #70

I am happy to be done with debating this. Just had a couple of things to say and they are said.

Mage showing up for nostalgia's sake to show me my errors seems like a sign from God.

I will follow it.

Post: #71

(03-16-2019 08:00 PM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  What evidence is there that saints actually hear our requests for prayer? In addition given the number of believers and the fact that they are not omnipresent or omniscient as God.

In a normal human circle I could ask a person to pray for me. But those saints would be receiving thousands every milisecond.

What evidence is there that God actually hears our requests for prayer?

First you doubt in saints then you doubt in God. Protestantism is Atheism beta version.

You can only check this out in your personal experience.

Protestant Heaven is a lonely place. Only you and God to talk to. Silly and lonely.

Catholics and Orthodox have retained the Pagan sense to understand that all souls are connected and ascend towards God together. We help each other in this path by advice, support and prayer. There is no death so your prayers are always heard.

The thing is that Brahman is so high that if he were to answer prayers directly we would never see it as his thoughts are not our thoughts and our minds are so different that we would never recognize their fulfillment. Therefore there exists whole layers and hierarchies of lesser gods, angels and saints and peers to pass on divine fulfillment to humans in a more comprehensible and immediate format. We are not really the last chain in this hierarchy and must respect lower lifeforms, such as animals as well and our attitude towards them must not be exploitative.

Post: #72

(03-18-2019 01:24 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  I am happy to be done with debating this. Just had a couple of things to say and they are said.

Mage showing up for nostalgia's sake to show me my errors seems like a sign from God.

I will follow it.

Understanding that there is no one "true Christian church", will be your first step in understanding that there is no one "true God's religion". Just give it some time and love.

This might sound horrifying for a dogmatist who hears in that a total exit from Christianity in that, or it might sound as a blessing for a mystic who hears in that ascension above boundaries drawn by human material mind.

Post: #73

(03-18-2019 10:36 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(03-17-2019 10:17 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(03-17-2019 11:36 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.

This is your invention, it does not have basis in the any aspect of what is known by all as christianity, neither tradition, history or even the holy scriptures, which the true church decided on as to which are reliable. If you really think about it, it renders the word and concept of church (assembly) as totally meaningless. You are confusing this, sadly, with the concept of salvation, something which is a preoccupation and inserted into every thought of the western scholastic mind.

I think you are deep in the weeds on this issue. This kind of nit picking legalism is my chief objection to internet Orthodox Christians.

This kind of debate does nothing to further the aims of Christianity of any kind.

You are wandering into this territory:

Quote:Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the Law. These things are useless and worthless.

The idea that the true church is internal and between God and each person is my invention is extremely odd. It is a concept called 'the body of Christ.' and is widely understood. I figured readers could make the connection on their own.

But you didn't because you are looking for something to argue about.

1 Corinthians 13:

Quote:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Your contentious, either/or kind of thinking is anathema to understanding the work of Jesus.

What I wrote doesn't make church meaningless. Christians pray and read scripture and try to find a good community to be a part of. That's what they do.

Yet even so, in every church, there are people who are faking it, or going through the motions, or whatever, and aren't part of the body of Christ, that is, the invisible church, and all that will be revealed eventually.

There are even Bible verses saying that people who don't even believe in Jesus or belong to a church can be part of the invisible church based on what is in their hearts.

Romans 2:14-15:

Quote:For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

This doesn't mean Christianity is then pointless.

It just means that God knows what is in the heart and we don't.

Quote:Recognizing what the true church is does not necessarily say anything about salvation.

Dude, you know I love you but this is goofy.

Salvation is all that matters, but, judging by your line of talk, you'd rather prove your church is the true church than have salvation.

There are billions of people being saved by their faith in Jesus, and they attend Orthodox churches and Catholic ones and non denominational ones, and Evangelical ones, even the snake handling kind, or the Mega Church kind, and there even people who don't believe in Jesus who are being saved.

It is because they follow the main two rules that Samseau listed earlier, and not because they can win arguments on the internet.

Jesus is about love, which is the furthest thing from either/or thinking you could imagine.

Salvation doesn't go to the best debater.

If the Orthodox church is the right one for you or anyone else you will figure that out eventually, and that is fine.

My only point is that the issue of original church, in a worldly sense, is moot.

It is an internet issue. Just another subject to talk about.

You keep going on and on about salvation and I don't disagree with you, but you also state that I am saying or stating or arguing things I"m not. I'm trying to make that clear.

The original church is a real, historical thing that exists. It determined what the scriptures are, it rightly teaches what the scriptures mean.

This "right one for you" gobble-dy guk is the thing out of modern thought or feminism.

Nothing I'm doing is "nitpicking legalism" at all, nor winning arguments, etc. It's correctly stating what the "church" is.

Anyone can be "saved" and we don't know for certain who these will be, though some we can be confident of. I don't know why you keep harping on that.

There's a reason why the Mormons, or Osteen, or gay Bishop 21st century rainbow worshipers aren't the church.

Why you are mad at me that you go off on tangents clarifying such a thing, is beyond me.

If people didn't choose their own ways (heresy) we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The point is that if you are aware of proper teaching, isn't that better than errant teaching? Of course the answer is yes. Would you knowingly drink tainted water as opposed to purified? Of course, not. Will that particular tainted water kill you? Maybe, maybe not.

It's not that hard to understand. St. Paul also said, [19] "for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."

Anyone seeking the truth should want it from the original source, if available, like anything we humans do. And it is available.

Post: #74

(03-18-2019 01:45 PM)Mage Wrote:  

(03-18-2019 01:24 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  I am happy to be done with debating this. Just had a couple of things to say and they are said.

Mage showing up for nostalgia's sake to show me my errors seems like a sign from God.

I will follow it.

Understanding that there is no one "true Christian church", will be your first step in understanding that there is no one "true God's religion". Just give it some time and love.

This might sound horrifying for a dogmatist who hears in that a total exit from Christianity in that, or it might sound as a blessing for a mystic who hears in that ascension above boundaries drawn by human material mind.

Perfect timing to support my points, too. Thanks Mage. Postmodern thought always helps since it is void of anything real or principled.

Post: #75

(03-18-2019 01:32 PM)Mage Wrote:  

(03-16-2019 08:00 PM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  What evidence is there that saints actually hear our requests for prayer? In addition given the number of believers and the fact that they are not omnipresent or omniscient as God.

In a normal human circle I could ask a person to pray for me. But those saints would be receiving thousands every milisecond.

What evidence is there that God actually hears our requests for prayer?

First you doubt in saints then you doubt in God. Protestantism is Atheism beta version.

You can only check this out in your personal experience.

Protestant Heaven is a lonely place. Only you and God to talk to. Silly and lonely.

Catholics and Orthodox have retained the Pagan sense to understand that all souls are connected and ascend towards God together. We help each other in this path by advice, support and prayer. There is no death so your prayers are always heard.

The thing is that Brahman is so high that if he were to answer prayers directly we would never see it as his thoughts are not our thoughts and our minds are so different that we would never recognize their fulfillment. Therefore there exists whole layers and hierarchies of lesser gods, angels and saints and peers to pass on divine fulfillment to humans in a more comprehensible and immediate format. We are not really the last chain in this hierarchy and must respect lower lifeforms, such as animals as well and our attitude towards them must not be exploitative.

What evidence is sufficient?

Plus my beliefs were retained after my original doubt in God. Due to the fact that I am convinced that Jesus rose from the dead and therefore is who he claims he is. And the Kalam Cosmological Argument(backed by much evidence for fine turning as well as the argument from Idealism as put forward by Inspiring Philosophy backed by evidence from quantum physics.