Post: #51

(12-06-2018 05:41 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  I'm trying desperately to understand how matching another nation's tariffs is "weak" and "not fair"

We're reaching cognitive dissonance levels previously thought impossible.

Trump is not intending to match other nation's tariff levels. Far from it. His intention is to exceed them many times over. Witness the massive tariffs on China, which are not matched by China. China even agreed to reduce the 40% tariff on cars, Trump has not reciprocated.

In the same way does Trump talk of 20% tariffs on German cars. When the EU only has a 10% tariff.

Trump wants to protect US manufacturers. Not create a fair level playing field. That is just rhetoric to justify the massive tariffs the US is now imposing and will impose.

A desperate measure a loser would pursue, when he has no other option. The real risk is that the tariffs will cause inflation and price hikes for US consumers, in the long term. Getting overseas buyers to switch from US suppliers to alternatives. The tariffs will further increase the US' problem of not being able to sell abroad.

Post: #52

The issue of tariffs is separate from the issue of arresting a foreign company officer in transit in a third foreign country over US sanctions violations

Tariffs are a long time legal method of protecting domestic industries from predatory trade practices.

Arresting a foreign company officer in a third country over alleged violation of sanctions the foreign country doesn't even agree to is unprecedented.

In this case it also embarrasses the third country, Canada, by showing how subject it is to US rule.

Post: #53

I find the level of knee jerk pro-Chinese sentiment disturbing.

Post: #54

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  I never mentioned the word "tariff" and was never referring to tariffs at all. My point had nothing to do with trade. Please don't use me to make your own (faulty) point.

You said that anything that hits back at Chinese companies was great, so including tariffs obviously.

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  German cars are among the least reliable cars with the lowest satisfaction, they don't even crack the top 10. Up until the late 90's they were great, sure, but these days a Hyundai made in Alabama is the the most reliable car. I guess if you want to be technical you could say a Hyundai is South Korean, but nevertheless a car made in America by American workers is indeed the most reliable. Not to mention the American made Toyotas etc. Even Chevy is more reliable than the Germans these days.

Please, at least make some serious points. German cars are the best in the world, as evidenced not just by countless consumer surveys outside Chattanooga Tennessee, but also by demand for German cars the world over, including incidentally the US. There's a reason why Trump is so upset about seeing so many German cars on the streets in New York.

Did this survey also mention blacks are terrible at basketball, Japanese knifes don't cut and Scottish whisky is not all that? I mean seriously, man, make some real points.

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  Pretty simple to anyone who knows the situation: Because the rich Chinese want bling bling Western "prestige" brands. That's it. They can't get enough of the perceived "luxury" brands. It is 100% to show off. In fact sometimes they initially don't even know what a specific brand is and have to be taught that it is a Luxury Western Good, then they buy. That's all that matters.

Well, US car manufacturers also have 'bling' cars. But nobody is buying them, not even the Chinese who love to study in the US. Why is that? Because American 'bling' cars are not as good as German 'bling' cars. That's why. If merely 'bling' were the issue the US would have no issue at all, as the bling nation par excellence.

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  Oh, and Cadillac is the #4 luxury brand in China btw, above Lexus and others. Why? They think it has "heritage and prestige". And Cadillac isn't great in reliability.

Cadillac is not the fourth most sold in China, not even close.

https://www.ft.com/content/b53c85ac-cd47...069bde0956

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  My god I don't want to weak! We better be strong and have unfettered "free" trade and see who comes out on top! I wonder if totalitarian China with slave labor and manipulated currency and massive pollution has any advantage though? Who cares, it's weak to resist this, we have to play "fair"!

If you're not going to play fair then don't make bullshit claims like 'we will level the playing field'. The US is doing nothing of the sort. If you're just afraid of Chinese competition, say 'we are afraid of competing with other countries and we will hide behind tariffs because we are cowards and see no other way out'.

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  If you are strong you will let that bull fuck your wife! Prove your strength! Don't be weak!

See, so you see yourself as the weakling and China as the bull. Tariffs emanate from a weakness mentality, this proves it yet again. You are also admitting that China has cucked you for years now in that case. There used to be a time when the USA was not afraid to compete and rather than whine about everyone else and hide behind tariffs just got on with being the world's most powerful economy. Do you see the weakness here?

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  No one can compete with China on price or volume. The west doesn't have unlimited 3rd world priced labor. Having that as the standard and implying that if you can't compete directly with that then you're "weak and cowardly" is asinine.

So you can't compete with China on price and you can't compete with Germany on quality? So what can you do? Apart from hiding behind tariffs? You claim China has an unfair advantage, it's no longer a slave labour economy btw, wages there have risen continually. Meanwhile Germany, rather than whining about China is selling more cars there than the US, who has only one GM model in the top ten at tenth place.

Quote:Reason why German cars are outselling American cars is not because of tariffs, it's because the world wants to buy German cars because they are better.

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  Again, no, it's not because of quality.

People are not buying German cars because they are quality cars? Really, interesting theory, bro. Then why did you say so yourself in your own post, you said the Chinese want to buy 'better' cars. That's the real reason why German cars are selling whereas American cars are not, isn't it, German cars really are quality cars, whereas American cars are known to be of rather poor manufactured quality and simply not as good as the competition.

Quote:Now even the tiniest coal mine in the US is of crucial importance to the US economy apparently.

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  In one moment you are arguing for Bill Kristol no borders no restriction "free" (lol) trade, but then you are also stating that the U.S. economy has been damaged greatly (true) and how even the smallest things are important.

I'm not saying that at all, some people can appreciate irony other's can't. I was merely pointing out that there used to be a time when the US would simply take certain disadvantages abroad in its stride, because it was in a position of strength. Now even a tiny coal mine is of importance, because the US economy now operates in a position of weakness vis a vis China. See your paranoia about Chinese 'slave labour' above.

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  It sure seems like an economy that needs to "protect" itself then, dosen't it?

That's just it, it doesn't. The US economy is the strongest in the world. It could just seek to match other countries exports. Germany outsells you in cars? Make better cars. Instead it seeks to hide, to take the comfort blanket of tariffs. Like a little scared boy. But the US economy is not a sapling anymore, it's a fully fledged fatso bully adult.

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  But what you - and that consumer - don't realize or seem to care about is that you're buying yourself out of a job and a country. Artificially cheap stuff is great, right up until there are 100 million American citizens who are permanently without employment, businesses and communities gone, misery and suicide. But at least we played "fair" with China and weren't "weak".

The reason why business communities are gone in the US has more to do with the lack of ability to produce products others want to buy. Huawei does not produce artificially cheap stuff, their products are excellent, high quality and receive rave reviews the world over, and as such are priced accordingly. They're not penny phones. If the US keep up the tariffs of course things will just get worse. Prices and inflation will go up, outside buyers will switch to other producers and there will be more Americans in poverty.

(12-06-2018 07:11 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  It absolute blind ignorance and insanity to suggest that China simply is or wants to play "fair" and that any resistance to outright direct unfettered "free" trade competition with them is "weak". Trade and manufacturing is so distorted in favor of China there could be tariffs imposed on China until the end of time and we may still never reach a level playing field.

Nobody is saying the world is 'fair', all I am saying is stop claiming this bullshit that you are imposing tariffs to 'level the playing field' and make competition 'fair'. You are doing the exact opposite, imposing huge tariffs to give an advantage to the US. So on the one had you complain that China does not play fair, but you, the Americans, are not playing fair in the slightest imposing massive tariffs. China at least doesn't claim it's tariffs are 'fair', neither should the US.

Post: #55

(12-07-2018 09:25 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  The issue of tariffs is separate from the issue of arresting a foreign company officer in transit in a third foreign country over US sanctions violations

Tariffs are a long time legal method of protecting domestic industries from predatory trade practices.

Arresting a foreign company officer in a third country over alleged violation of sanctions the foreign country doesn't even agree to is unprecedented.

In this case it also embarrasses the third country, Canada, by showing how subject it is to US rule.

The issues are very much linked. The reason why the US is so hot on hampering Huawei is not because it sold a mobile phone to Iran, nor because of security concerns. The US fears that Huawei phones will outsell Iphones at home. It's the same fear behind tariffs, namely that China will outsell the US on the home turf and abroad, that is behind the claims about 'security' and selling to Iran. The US is using any means, no matter how dirty or dubious, to hobble the competition because they are so afraid of Chinese competitive power, see Globalman's view on China above. This is all because of fear from the US, fear of losing economic pre-eminence. It can see the writing on the wall, but is powerless to do anything it appears. All it can do is hide behind tariffs and arrest CFOs for breaking sanctions they don't even need to adhere to.

This arrest of the Chinese CFO is a mistake because it will start a debate on whether foreign countries should adhere to one-sided US only sanctions. Already with the Iran sactions the world has chosen to ignore US objections to the treaty and to ignore the sanctions. This arrest will further damage US in the eyes of the world, and it's bully tactics of tariffs and sanctions, and arresting CFOs (!) will simply motivate the rest of the world to thoroughly ignore US sanctions, which most used to adhere to btw when they respected the US.

Post: #56

(12-07-2018 09:00 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  Tariffs are not just 'an economic concept'. They are policies implemented by men. Men who are afraid of competition. Men who like a little comfort blanket in the face of the big bad world. Men, who are cowardly hiding.

If you think it's not obvious that tariffs are the economic equivalent of cowardly hiding behind mama's skirt you're wrong.

Surely this guy is trolling. No one makes assertions this ridiculous and retarded.

Post: #57

(12-06-2018 08:02 PM)bigswingingdick Wrote:  China don’t create nothing. They copy. And will always copy.

You may want to ponder that the USA got started by copying the British economic model.

The same with Germany. The British in fact passed a law that products had to be labelled 'made in Germany' to distinguish the inferior copies from the quality British product. Man did Britain shoot itself in the foot. Do you know why? Because Germany ended up not just copying British products, but producing far better products than Britain ever did.

The same happened with Japan. It copied German cameras at first. Then it started making vastly superior cameras than Germany ever did.

We see this with China already, yes they copied at first. But now with Huawei phones we see they can make products that are better than those in the West.

China will produce high quality products, it's just a question of time. It's already doing so in some measure.

Post: #58

(12-07-2018 09:58 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  No one makes assertions this ridiculous and retarded.

It's not ridiculous at all, tariffs are a protectionist, cowardly measure. Designed to allow industries to hide behind the skirt of the state.

Whilst the US is doing that German companies are working in China to sell more cars than the US does.

China is working on producing phones better than iphone.

Who do you think will come out on top? Those hiding behind tariffs or those actually working to make products others want to buy?

Post: #59

Lolbertarians. Yeesh.

Foreign nations can be forcing children into mines to extract rare earth minerals with their teeth and nails, but the real issue of the day is whether it's immoral to prevent those nations from using the fruits of that oppression to destroy your nation's industrial base or compromise your national security.

"Muh globalist free market! Muh cheap Chinese phone! Muh lolbertarian geopolitical world view!"

You heard it here, RVF. If you lazy pricks want to compete in the phone market then you should do it properly. Forget your tariffs and instead abolish all ethical standards for labor and environmental protection laws. We want children with their tiny, swift fingers assembling phones in the West, being exposed to toxic chemicals that will cause them to die horribly of cancer by the time they're 50.

This is the only ethical way to compete.

Tariffs are just evil.

Post: #60

What is with you and Germany?

And constantly with the iPhone? The iPhone is a god damn Chinese phone dude. Almost all cell phones are Chinese phones. There is no "don't want to compete with Chinese phones". Apple is essentially a Chinese company. In addition, iPhones make up a minority of cell phones in the United States. There are a dozen Chinese brands directly sold by carriers in the USA. There is no issue with Chinese phones.

This is about a couple brands which have a history a fraud, both upon the consumer and governments. And not alleged fraud by the "deep state". Their bulshit has been discovered and confirmed by third parties in various countries.

This is not some iPhone protection conspiracy, you nutty German.

I notice all the China Shills enjoy living and doing business in the whitest and most western, high trust countries possible. It's very easy to pump up the Chinese regime while not having to spend a second enduring it or navigating it.

Post: #61

The Iphone is made in China, okay, but the genius behind it, the people who designed it are very much American.

So you see you have genius in the US. You make some great products the world wants to buy, including me btw. You just don't make enough of them.

Apple is a Chinese company? Man you're funny, I like you, you make me laugh.

So you think the US state is after Huawei because they think Huawei defraud the consumer or the government? Doesn't seem likely. Seems more likely the US simply wants to eliminate a Chinese competitor, who let's face it is making some high quality phones. After all we have that all encompassing fear of Americans that China will outsell them. That is the driving force behind the tariffs and also the arrest of the CFO of Huawei.

In the economic war the US has found it is out of weapons, and is now using Commando methods like tariffs and arrests. It's not really cricket to be honest.

Post: #62

(12-07-2018 10:25 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Lolbertarians. Yeesh.

Foreign nations can be forcing children into mines to extract rare earth minerals with their teeth and nails, but the real issue of the day is whether it's immoral to prevent those nations from using the fruits of that oppression to destroy your nation's industrial base or compromise your national security.

"Muh globalist free market! Muh cheap Chinese phone! Muh lolbertarian geopolitical world view!"

You heard it here, RVF. If you lazy pricks want to compete in the phone market then you should do it properly. Forget your tariffs and instead abolish all ethical standards for labor and environmental protection laws. We want children with their tiny, swift fingers assembling phones in the West, being exposed to toxic chemicals that will cause them to die horribly of cancer by the time they're 50.

This is the only ethical way to compete.

Tariffs are just evil.

It's a fair point actually. Whilst the average salary in China has risen steadily, to the extent that some foreign manufacturers now prefer to produce in cheaper countries, there are still some awful conditions in Chinese and Taiwanese factories. That has to be addressed, and it is Western companies that have the power to do that and are doing it.

The thing is, though, nobody wants to destroy the American industrial base. Certainly not China or the EU, because the USA is still the biggest market for their products. China and the EU want Americans to be able to buy their products, not to destroy the US market. That would be idiotic.

Americans themselves are destroying the US Industrial base by failing to produce products people want to buy and instead hiding behind tariffs. This will only get worse with protectionism.

Ethical standards in production are very important and should be taken seriously. However, tariffs are not ethical, they are basically extortion. You can only sell to us if you pay us X amount of extortion money, because you know we just can't produce products in demand like you can....

And yes, if you want to compete, and make better products, then you need to take it seriously, more seriously than hiding behind tariffs, which apparently you now take more seriously than actually making shit people want to buy. I am starting to feel sorry for America and the direction it's going.

Post: #63

(12-07-2018 10:44 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  In the economic war the US has found it is out of weapons, and is now using Commando methods like tariffs and arrests. It's not really cricket to be honest.

Is there a reason we should care about being cricket?

Post: #64

Of course there is. In the world of business reputation matters.

In the past people loved America. If you now arrest CFOs of major companies, do you think CFOs will be as keen to go to the US, to do business with the US?

Do you think with tariffs a la crazy, businesses will not look towards doing business elsewhere?

If tariffs continue the prices will go up in the US, which means inflation will go up. If US products get even more expensive, do you think that will help the US to sell abroad?

Neither tariffs nor arresting CFOs will help the US in the long term to avoid being eclipsed by China as the number one economic power.

However, they will start to chip away at the stellar reputation which the US still enjoys as a fair and reliable country to do business with.

That's a problem.

Post: #65

So what you're saying is every country should have tariffs except the US, right?

That's pretty much what I'm gleaning from all of this.

Post: #66

No of course not, the question is are tariffs in the best interest of the US?

What will happen if tariffs continue the way they are now, prices in the US will rise because cheaper competitors are artificially excluded from the US market, will they not? Higher prices means inflation will go up.

This will not just hurt the US consumer, but if prices in the US go up this will make American products even harder to sell abroad. They're already not as good as foreign products, bar a few exceptions, so what incentive will foreign consumers have to buy American products if they are even more expensive?

So if the US exports even less, what do you think will happen to the US industrial base? Will the American domestic consumer, hurting from higher prices, be able to absorb the profits demanded by US companies, now operating without cheap competition? He will not. The US NEEDS to export, that is why Trump is focusing on exports, the American consumer can't do it alone.

So the question is are these tariffs in the best interest of the US in the long term? In the short term yes they will help Trump to garner populist support for his re-election, but in the long term they will hurt the American Industrial base.

Tariffs can be legitimate, if you are facing a truly serious threat from an unfair competitor flooding your market for instance, if your economy is young and fragile.

However, the US is a most powerful economy, not a young fragile one. Moreover, the US market is the biggest in the world, so the US has a special responsibility for the world economy. If the US merely protect its own industries, not only do they harm foreign companies, ultimately they harm their own.

So the kind of crazy tariffs the US now has put in place, and is contemplating, really need to go. And they will. Just a question of time.

Post: #67

(12-07-2018 11:12 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  Of course there is. In the world of business reputation matters.

How much international business experience do you actually have?
EVERYONE hates China. Nobody likes them. I've never met a guy who's worked with the Chinese in a business capacity and enjoyed the experience. From their creepy-ass chat app that spies on your every word, to their randomly changing laws that make it impossible to plan more than a year in advance (Just had a little project of mine take a heavy hit because of some newly passed Chinese laws) and yet everybody does business with them anyway.

Nobody gives a shit. Everybody just wants to make a buck, and as long as the US is where you go to make a buck, people will come here, regardless of whether we arrest the CFO of one of China's police state megacorps.

Post: #68

(12-06-2018 11:08 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

(12-06-2018 12:55 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  In fact if the West never takes action like this there is no reason for the Chinese to play fair.

How is the US 'playing fair' though when it imposes massive tariffs on countries the world over from China to Germany to Denmark?

The US has never played 'fair' in any way, has it, and is merely using its massive market size to bully the rest of the world to accept terms beneficial to only itself. Fairness doesn't come into it at all. China is the recipient of tariffs, just like Germany, France, Canada and many of the American's most trusted allies. How is this fair?

Are you phocking kidding us - the USA has a $21 Trillion Deficit - $21 Trillion in missing black projects debt and $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities - why because the USA was an open market since WWII with Minimal Tariffs coming into the USA that rebuilt Germany France UK Italy et al in the EU, and Japan, Korea then China and pretty much all of Latin and South America - not just coffee and bananas but car parts from Mexico and Brazil and textiles/shoes etc.

All the while NAFTA offered backdoor access to the Communist Freaking Red Chinese who set up subsidiary companies in Canada and Mexico to get into the USA markets via the NAFTA back door... USMCA claims to have cut some of these NAFTA back door excesses but remains to be seen what the CFRC's Lobbyists and bought and paid for Leftist Senators and House Reps do to modify the USMCA.

Bottom line the USA vis POTUS Trump is merely demanding fair and balanced trade via reciprocal Tariff structures and minimal trade barriers the Mainstay of both the EU, Major Asian and Latin/South American countries. They export to us relatively Duty and Tariff and obstructive trade regulations free and they HAMMER the USA in return as their idea of reciprocity.

The Munts in control of the Chinese Communist Politburo all have their panties in a twist because Wowway or Huawei is one of their largest sources of graft - er ah tribute or should I say Lobbyists revenues to fund the Communist officials lavish lifestyles

Phock that horse manure - Trump is right as usual.

Post: #69

(12-07-2018 11:49 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  How much international business experience do you actually have?

I have a small business and direct experience with Chinese business, I import from China. It's been a very good experience for me.

I am also an international corporate lawyer and deal regularly with some of the largest companies and banks in the world.

(12-07-2018 11:49 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  Nobody gives a shit. Everybody just wants to make a buck, and as long as the US is where you go to make a buck, people will come here, regardless of whether we arrest the CFO of one of China's police state megacorps.

Well, that's the thing, people want to come to the US to make a buck, but the US is now excluding them with monster tariffs, so obviously they will go elsewhere. And nobody wants to be arrested, this will merely further alieante foreign companies.

Post: #70

(12-07-2018 11:52 AM)Deepdiver Wrote:  

(12-06-2018 11:08 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

(12-06-2018 12:55 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  In fact if the West never takes action like this there is no reason for the Chinese to play fair.

How is the US 'playing fair' though when it imposes massive tariffs on countries the world over from China to Germany to Denmark?

The US has never played 'fair' in any way, has it, and is merely using its massive market size to bully the rest of the world to accept terms beneficial to only itself. Fairness doesn't come into it at all. China is the recipient of tariffs, just like Germany, France, Canada and many of the American's most trusted allies. How is this fair?

Are you phocking kidding us - the USA has a $21 Trillion Deficit - $21 Trillion in missing black projects debt and $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities - why because the USA was an open market since WWII with Minimal Tariffs coming into the USA that rebuilt Germany France UK Italy et al in the EU, and Japan, Korea then China and pretty much all of Latin and South America - not just coffee and bananas but car parts from Mexico and Brazil and textiles/shoes etc.

All the while NAFTA offered backdoor access to the Communist Freaking Red Chinese who set up subsidiary companies in Canada and Mexico to get into the USA markets via the NAFTA back door... USMCA claims to have cut some of these NAFTA back door excesses but remains to be seen what the CFRC's Lobbyists and bought and paid for Leftist Senators and House Reps do to modify the USMCA.

Bottom line the USA vis POTUS Trump is merely demanding fair and balanced trade via reciprocal Tariff structures and minimal trade barriers the Mainstay of both the EU, Major Asian and Latin/South American countries. They export to us relatively Duty and Tariff and obstructive trade regulations free and they HAMMER the USA in return as their idea of reciprocity.

The Munts in control of the Chinese Communist Politburo all have their panties in a twist because Wowway or Huawei is one of their largest sources of graft - er ah tribute or should I say Lobbyists revenues to fund the Communist officials lavish lifestyles

Phock that horse manure - Trump is right as usual.

Sorry, but you have that completely wrong. The US has been a bastion of protectionism for most of its existence.

"Protectionism was an American tradition. According to Paul Bairoch, the United States was "the homeland and bastion of modern protectionism" since the end of the 18th century and until after World War II."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff

The reason why the US has a massive deficit is NOT because it is a bastion of free trade, it is because the US has always been insular and focused on its own large domestic market. This has led to standardised production geared to the US market. As a result the US has produced little foreign buyers want to buy, with some notable exceptions.

Take cars for example. The reason the US is not selling as many cars as Japan and Germany is not because the US is being screwed with an unfair playing field, no it is simply because they produce, much, much, much better fucking cars than the US does.

That is the reason for the US deficit, it is not making products foreigners want to buy. Whereas foreigners do produce such products, German cars, Chinese phones etc.

And the US is not creating a 'level playing field'. It is imposing monster tariffs, it is doing the EXACT opposite of creating a level playing field.

Trump has it wrong on tariffs, they will reduce welfare for the US people because prices will go up.

They will prevent US companies from becoming competitive, as they will be artificially protected from competition at home, so the deficit will grow further as US companies will do even worse abroad. Also factor in higher prices for US goods.

Retaliatory tariffs will hurt US companies, see American soy producers, who have lost 60 per cent of their income.

Post: #71

(12-06-2018 05:59 PM)scorpion Wrote:  The U.S. government's unprecedented crackdown on Huawei seems rather transparently motivated by fear of their smartphones gaining huge market share in the West. This is ostensibly due to concerns about Chinese government hardware backdoors in the phones. It looks very much like a case where the lady doth protest too much. In other words, the U.S. Deep State already has its own hardware backdoors in Apple and Samsung devices, but doesn't have them in Huawei phones. It's sad to say as an American, but I'd rather be spied on by China than my own government. The Chinese at least don't have the ability to kick my door in and throw me in prison any time they want.

The international Technical Business Analysts seem to agree that this spat is all about who will Dominate the Mega-Trillion Dollar Gobal Markets for all things 5G - infrastructure, satellites, access services, access points, gear, handsets, IoT, Smart Cars, Smart Homes, smart appliances, smart you and your family via eventual 5G implants and global control of 7 Billion debt and tech slaves via 5G...

China already has the most authoritarian predatory capitalist system with a Yuuge Advantage in controlling all things 5G mentioned above and as success of the FAANGS exploding just on the basis of the Mobile Broadband revolution - the wealth to be created by the 5G Mega Revolution dwarfs 4G and it is a winner take all battle for financial survival in North America, Tech East/Southern Asia, The Middle East and PanEuropa including Mother Russia with Billions of people in Africa and South/Central America and Asean third world nations dying to bridge the digital divide.

Wow5Gway (Huawei) is the leading Govt Supported 5G company poised to Control 5G worldwide and is a direct threat to both the economic survival of North America and Pan-Europa as well as their smaller Asian neighbors. Chinese Communists already the new Global Capitalists Wolves in Marxist Socialist Red Communist sheepskins across Africa and Latin/South America.

Post: #72

(12-07-2018 12:11 PM)Jefferson Wrote:  

(12-07-2018 11:52 AM)Deepdiver Wrote:  

(12-06-2018 11:08 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

(12-06-2018 12:55 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  In fact if the West never takes action like this there is no reason for the Chinese to play fair.

How is the US 'playing fair' though when it imposes massive tariffs on countries the world over from China to Germany to Denmark?

The US has never played 'fair' in any way, has it, and is merely using its massive market size to bully the rest of the world to accept terms beneficial to only itself. Fairness doesn't come into it at all. China is the recipient of tariffs, just like Germany, France, Canada and many of the American's most trusted allies. How is this fair?

Are you phocking kidding us - the USA has a $21 Trillion Deficit - $21 Trillion in missing black projects debt and $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities - why because the USA was an open market since WWII with Minimal Tariffs coming into the USA that rebuilt Germany France UK Italy et al in the EU, and Japan, Korea then China and pretty much all of Latin and South America - not just coffee and bananas but car parts from Mexico and Brazil and textiles/shoes etc.

All the while NAFTA offered backdoor access to the Communist Freaking Red Chinese who set up subsidiary companies in Canada and Mexico to get into the USA markets via the NAFTA back door... USMCA claims to have cut some of these NAFTA back door excesses but remains to be seen what the CFRC's Lobbyists and bought and paid for Leftist Senators and House Reps do to modify the USMCA.

Bottom line the USA vis POTUS Trump is merely demanding fair and balanced trade via reciprocal Tariff structures and minimal trade barriers the Mainstay of both the EU, Major Asian and Latin/South American countries. They export to us relatively Duty and Tariff and obstructive trade regulations free and they HAMMER the USA in return as their idea of reciprocity.

The Munts in control of the Chinese Communist Politburo all have their panties in a twist because Wowway or Huawei is one of their largest sources of graft - er ah tribute or should I say Lobbyists revenues to fund the Communist officials lavish lifestyles

Phock that horse manure - Trump is right as usual.

Sorry, but you have that completely wrong. The US has been a bastion of protectionism for most of its existence.

"Protectionism was an American tradition. According to Paul Bairoch, the United States was "the homeland and bastion of modern protectionism" since the end of the 18th century and until after World War II."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff

The reason why the US has a massive deficit is NOT because it is a bastion of free trade, it is because the US has always been insular and focused on its own large domestic market. This has led to standardised production geared to the US market. As a result the US has produced little foreign buyers want to buy, with some notable exceptions.

Take cars for example. The reason the US is not selling as many cars as Japan and Germany is not because the US is being screwed with an unfair playing field, no it is simply because they produce, much, much, much better fucking cars than the US does.

That is the reason for the US deficit, it is not making products foreigners want to buy. Whereas foreigners do produce such products, German cars, Chinese phones etc.

And the US is not creating a 'level playing field'. It is imposing monster tariffs, it is doing the EXACT opposite of creating a level playing field.

Trump has it wrong on tariffs, they will reduce welfare for the US people because prices will go up.

They will prevent US companies from becoming competitive, as they will be artificially protected from competition at home, so the deficit will grow further as US companies will do even worse abroad. Also factor in higher prices for US goods.

Retaliatory tariffs will hurt US companies, see American soy producers, who have lost 60 per cent of their income.

With all due respects Jefferson you are locked in a 30 year old time warp where the lazy unions and hostile management in the USA did not care what kind of product they built and why the wisdom of the time was learn to read a VIN# and never buy a vehicle built on a Monday or Friday when the union workers were either hungover or jones for their next hangover...

2008/09 flushed out most of those old lazy union workers and now all new US Car factories use the same Siemens (VW etc.) and Toshiba etc (Nippon) Robots making highly quality controlled cars for the masses at prices the average working man can afford while the Japanese and Germans have basically priced them out of the Global Markets except for FIAT that builds cars for the Common man as well due to their Togliatti Socialist leanings - even Fiat using robots and building less crap these days due ironically to their purchase of Chrysler. So the quality gap between Japan's Highest Quality Toyotas and Lexus models, German Mercedes, BMW, and Audi-VW models and the rest of the global manufacturers is who has the best robots and best Software and enterprise supply chain systems to support those robots so - Jefferson pull that Giant Tuba Out of your arse and stop blowing around so much magic happy smoke up our collective backsides.

Post: #73

(12-07-2018 01:16 PM)Deepdiver Wrote:  

(12-07-2018 12:11 PM)Jefferson Wrote:  

(12-07-2018 11:52 AM)Deepdiver Wrote:  

(12-06-2018 11:08 AM)Jefferson Wrote:  

(12-06-2018 12:55 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  In fact if the West never takes action like this there is no reason for the Chinese to play fair.

How is the US 'playing fair' though when it imposes massive tariffs on countries the world over from China to Germany to Denmark?

The US has never played 'fair' in any way, has it, and is merely using its massive market size to bully the rest of the world to accept terms beneficial to only itself. Fairness doesn't come into it at all. China is the recipient of tariffs, just like Germany, France, Canada and many of the American's most trusted allies. How is this fair?

Are you phocking kidding us - the USA has a $21 Trillion Deficit - $21 Trillion in missing black projects debt and $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities - why because the USA was an open market since WWII with Minimal Tariffs coming into the USA that rebuilt Germany France UK Italy et al in the EU, and Japan, Korea then China and pretty much all of Latin and South America - not just coffee and bananas but car parts from Mexico and Brazil and textiles/shoes etc.

All the while NAFTA offered backdoor access to the Communist Freaking Red Chinese who set up subsidiary companies in Canada and Mexico to get into the USA markets via the NAFTA back door... USMCA claims to have cut some of these NAFTA back door excesses but remains to be seen what the CFRC's Lobbyists and bought and paid for Leftist Senators and House Reps do to modify the USMCA.

Bottom line the USA vis POTUS Trump is merely demanding fair and balanced trade via reciprocal Tariff structures and minimal trade barriers the Mainstay of both the EU, Major Asian and Latin/South American countries. They export to us relatively Duty and Tariff and obstructive trade regulations free and they HAMMER the USA in return as their idea of reciprocity.

The Munts in control of the Chinese Communist Politburo all have their panties in a twist because Wowway or Huawei is one of their largest sources of graft - er ah tribute or should I say Lobbyists revenues to fund the Communist officials lavish lifestyles

Phock that horse manure - Trump is right as usual.

Sorry, but you have that completely wrong. The US has been a bastion of protectionism for most of its existence.

"Protectionism was an American tradition. According to Paul Bairoch, the United States was "the homeland and bastion of modern protectionism" since the end of the 18th century and until after World War II."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff

The reason why the US has a massive deficit is NOT because it is a bastion of free trade, it is because the US has always been insular and focused on its own large domestic market. This has led to standardised production geared to the US market. As a result the US has produced little foreign buyers want to buy, with some notable exceptions.

Take cars for example. The reason the US is not selling as many cars as Japan and Germany is not because the US is being screwed with an unfair playing field, no it is simply because they produce, much, much, much better fucking cars than the US does.

That is the reason for the US deficit, it is not making products foreigners want to buy. Whereas foreigners do produce such products, German cars, Chinese phones etc.

And the US is not creating a 'level playing field'. It is imposing monster tariffs, it is doing the EXACT opposite of creating a level playing field.

Trump has it wrong on tariffs, they will reduce welfare for the US people because prices will go up.

They will prevent US companies from becoming competitive, as they will be artificially protected from competition at home, so the deficit will grow further as US companies will do even worse abroad. Also factor in higher prices for US goods.

Retaliatory tariffs will hurt US companies, see American soy producers, who have lost 60 per cent of their income.

With all due respects Jefferson you are locked in a 30 year old time warp where the lazy unions and hostile management in the USA did not care what kind of product they built and why the wisdom of the time was learn to read a VIN# and never buy a vehicle built on a Monday or Friday when the union workers were either hungover or jones for their next hangover...

2008/09 flushed out most of those old lazy union workers and now all new US Car factories use the same Siemens (VW etc.) and Toshiba etc (Nippon) Robots making highly quality controlled cars for the masses at prices the average working man can afford while the Japanese and Germans have basically priced them out of the Global Markets except for FIAT that builds cars for the Common man as well due to their Togliatti Socialist leanings - even Fiat using robots and building less crap these days due ironically to their purchase of Chrysler. So the quality gap between Japan's Highest Quality Toyotas and Lexus models, German Mercedes, BMW, and Audi-VW models and the rest of the global manufacturers is who has the best robots and best Software and enterprise supply chain systems to support those robots so - Jefferson pull that Giant Tuba Out of your arse and stop blowing around so much magic happy smoke up our collective backsides.

Indeed we should look 30 years back in the past, when the US also started a well known tariff war, that time with Japan. The tariff shocks the US imposed, again and again were designed to stop the penetration of Japanese cars in the US market and protect US manufacturers. How successful were those tariffs? Not very, right? Japanese car makers now more entrenched in the US market than ever. Chrysler taken over by a foreign buyer.

These tariffs will be just as useless.

And btw, it sounds a bit 1950s to me, only Fiat builds cars for the "common man" because they're socialist? Germany's biggest car maker is called the 'People's car. They've been building cars for the common man since inception, Mercedes now build the A-Class. It's a misconception that German car makers only build luxury cars, they satisfy the entire range of the market, as do most big manufacturers. The biggest German car maker, Volkswagen, is not known for its luxury cars.

And fyi, the robots only assemble the cars, they don't design them, human beings do.

Whilst undoubtedly American cars have gotten better, let's face it they were seriously terrible, they are still nowhere near the quality of German or Japanese cars.

So the question Trump should be asking is not how do I protect GM, but why can GM not build a car like the Porsche Cayenne or VW Touareg?

Who is the tightest with money? Who wants the most value for money? The Chinese.

Which are the top ten most sold cars in China? Six out of the ten top ten best selling cars in China are from Volkswagen.

https://www.ft.com/content/b53c85ac-cd47...069bde0956

And do note, they are not 'Bling' cars.

If Nissan and Volkswagen can sell well in China, why not the Americans? That's the real mystery. Could it be because the cars are not as good? Oh no wait, it's because it's not a 'level playing field'....

Post: #74

Yeah - Yeah Jefferson you sound like a Broken Record, USA Bad - Orange Man Bad - USA should surrender to our new Chinese and Radical Islamist Narco Slavemasters and just be good Chipped 5G Bots or just BTFO and go die.

NOPE - Too many MAGA Armed 2A Men like me in the USA and your dreams of a conquered USA will never happen. I personally guarantee it.

We are currently like a Pheonix beginning to rise from our (Clinton-Obamunist) ashes...

LOL have you been in a New VW lately - they have all the bells and whistles of a fully loaded Toyota - standard and built by German Robots so super quality... No longer the Common Peoples Wagon.

Post: #75

Lol, wot?

Who said anything about conquering the USA?

Nobody wants to conquer or destroy the USA. China and the EU want the USA, as an important market, to be prosperous so Americans can buy their products.

To conquer and have to live in the USA would be my worst fucking nightmare.

And you're not like a Phoenix (sic) rising from the ashes, you're like an old christmas tree about to be turned into ashes, or at least relegated to a position of economic number-two-dom. That's if you're lucky.

Again tariffs will cause rising prices in the US, as cheaper manufacturers are excluded from the market. It will hurt US consumers.

US companies will not have an incentive to make products people abroad want to buy, because they won't be able to export with their high prices and won't have had any real competition forcing them to make good products. Net result is that the deficit will get even bigger.

The result will be inevitable decline, not rising from the ashes. The tariffs are just accelerating the decline. How can you not see that?

And the VW Lupo has bells and whistles maybe for an American consumer used to Chevrolets, but not for European consumers or even Chinese consumers.