Post: #26

In my opinion there are two factors that determine your succes with women.

A: Your value. This means your game, your look, your clothes, your confidence, your lifestyle.
B: Being at the right time, right place with right girl (what includes especially girls emotional state).

If you multiply A x B, you get the result in form of getting or not getting the girl.
That means you can be awesome, but if you approach a girl, who just got pregnant with her partner she is in love with, you probably won´t get her. But on the other hand, if you approached the same girl a year ago she´ll be yours.
Or you can be the rat. He can approachs the girl, that was just dumped by her boyfriend for another girl, got drunk and promised herself, that she will sleep with the first guy she meets. That´s when his "B" score was so high, that "A" score didn´t matter and he still got laid.
While there can be fitness model in expensive suit, who only sits at home and minimalizes B score, that it doesn´t matter how A score is high.

You maximize your score by both approaching and working on yourself. The higher score is, the more and better girls you get.

Post: #27

(10-22-2018 11:29 PM)corsega Wrote:  Not trying to kill the buzz here, but am the only one who suspects this is an apocryphal story? If not, would be curious about more information on "The Rat". What city was this in, how did you guys meet? Any idea what he's up to now?

I had to Google "apocryphal".

The story is true. And nothing special for that matter. Plenty of 'rats' around in the world. For some guys it might be difficult to belief and accept. The girl they place on a pedestral in reality actually likes banging with a 'rat'. In fact, 'rats' are much more fun than average guys.

Post: #28

(10-23-2018 04:02 AM)BadBoyGamer Wrote:  In fact, 'rats' are much more fun than average guys.

Quote:His room only had an old dirty mattress and a chair in it...Most of the time ‘the rat’ smelled like piss and beer. He did not take many showers. He did not clean his bed sheets.

Hmm, I'm sure these drunk girls that "rat" is pulling from bars must wake up in the morning on the dirty mattress, smelling the piss and beer and dirty sheets...and just want to run away as fast as they can and pretend it didn't happen.

Any girl that wakes up & sobers up and then thinks that hanging with "rat" is much more fun...well, "rat" can keep them.

This could almost be a story about girls satisfying some sort of weird fetish.

Post: #29

(10-23-2018 03:59 AM)tomzestatlu Wrote:  In my opinion there are two factors that determine your succes with women.

A: Your value. This means your game, your look, your clothes, your confidence, your lifestyle.
B: Being at the right time, right place with right girl (what includes especially girls emotional state).

If you multiply A x B, you get the result in form of getting or not getting the girl.
That means you can be awesome, but if you approach a girl, who just got pregnant with her partner she is in love with, you probably won´t get her. But on the other hand, if you approached the same girl a year ago she´ll be yours.
Or you can be the rat. He can approachs the girl, that was just dumped by her boyfriend for another girl, got drunk and promised herself, that she will sleep with the first guy she meets. That´s when his "B" score was so high, that "A" score didn´t matter and he still got laid.
While there can be fitness model in expensive suit, who only sits at home and minimalizes B score, that it doesn´t matter how A score is high.

You maximize your score by both approaching and working on yourself. The higher score is, the more and better girls you get.

This is almost completely wrong.

Those things are relevant, but game can take a guy with little value and get him over the finish line. A lot of guys in their 40s and 50s, in the worst shape of their life, are having their best success with women. So its not SMV.

Also, a lot of times the reason for failure is the girl, not you.

There are a lot of factors to the equation. Yours leaves out all of them but 2, and they are not even the most important.

Post: #30

@ Sgt Donger

Limiting beliefs.

Most guys are having trouble even talking to a girl. Making the talk be slightly sexual is even harder. They are too insecure to whisper dirty things in her ear. Too afraid to squeeze her ass. Too intimidated to lead her to the bedroom. Too scared to bang. Instead they want to cuddle and give boring massages.

Most guys place girls on pedestals. Believing she is some special innocent angel who can do no harm. Many belief girls are not interested in sex. Most guys are ashamed of their own sexuality. Some think girls do not like giving blowjobs.

A 'rat' has none of these problems.

For a girl there is nothing worse than a boring guy and sadly most guys are boring.

Post: #31

When I first discovered game, I thought I was the shit.

I truly thought I could get laid just from being confident and saying the right things. After all, I was stepping up to the hottest girls on campus.

But experiencing so much rejection really crushed my confidence for awhile. I started rationalizing what was wrong with me. "It must be my looks!" I thought.

I know rejection isn't a big deal but when you've been rejected so many times, it's hard not to wonder what you're doing wrong.

What was the rat like before he lost his virginity? You say you need to get laid to develop outcome independence, but if you need outcome independence to get laid then isn't that sort of like "who came first: the chicken or the egg?"

Maybe I need to start doing night game again. I dunno. I much prefer day game.

Day Bang by Roosh (haven't read bang or game yet) is only useful for situations where the girl can't eject from the conversation.

I feel much more congruent opening direct when the girl is walking down the street or sitting at the cafe.

If I'm on the bus or waiting for it, an indirect Roosh opener is better so as to not "scare the cat."

I haven't ready mystery, neil strauss, or krauser yet. Maybe I'll pick up mystery method today...

Post: #32

Often these types are able to give a girl more of an emotional experience than the men that are doing everything right. The ideal of course is to combine the two, but high achievement takes a delayed gratification kind of mindset which is the direct opposite of the kind of behaviour that is attractive to women in the club.

Post: #33

(10-23-2018 04:48 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

(10-23-2018 03:59 AM)tomzestatlu Wrote:  In my opinion there are two factors that determine your succes with women.

A: Your value. This means your game, your look, your clothes, your confidence, your lifestyle.
B: Being at the right time, right place with right girl (what includes especially girls emotional state).

If you multiply A x B, you get the result in form of getting or not getting the girl.
That means you can be awesome, but if you approach a girl, who just got pregnant with her partner she is in love with, you probably won´t get her. But on the other hand, if you approached the same girl a year ago she´ll be yours.
Or you can be the rat. He can approachs the girl, that was just dumped by her boyfriend for another girl, got drunk and promised herself, that she will sleep with the first guy she meets. That´s when his "B" score was so high, that "A" score didn´t matter and he still got laid.
While there can be fitness model in expensive suit, who only sits at home and minimalizes B score, that it doesn´t matter how A score is high.

You maximize your score by both approaching and working on yourself. The higher score is, the more and better girls you get.

This is almost completely wrong.

Those things are relevant, but game can take a guy with little value and get him over the finish line. A lot of guys in their 40s and 50s, in the worst shape of their life, are having their best success with women. So its not SMV.

Also, a lot of times the reason for failure is the girl, not you.

There are a lot of factors to the equation. Yours leaves out all of them but 2, and they are not even the most important.

I think that you misunderstood what I´ve written.

Post: #34

@ Alpha_Ambitionz

You are probably best of finding a good PUA coach and paying him to figure out what is going wrong. An outside perspective on you; personality, style, vibe, approach methodology, etc. is very valuable.

Quote:but if you need outcome independence to get laid then isn't that sort of like "who came first: the chicken or the egg?"

Yes. You make it evolve. Just like the chicken and egg. First you develop approach abundance, then date abundance, then kissing abundance, etc. Step by step you build up your "chicken" untill it can finally lay eggs.

Quote:I feel much more congruent opening direct when the girl is walking down the street or sitting at the cafe.

Yes. Honesty to yourself is important. Direct is a good approach. As long as the girl has an easy way to get out. Or be able to signal for you to go away, without any fuzz. Approaching is not your problem.


How many dates do you get?
At what point in the process is it going wrong?
Do you know what the process is supposed to look like?

Post: #35

The lesson of the rat is not just to play the numbers game. It's the DGAF attitude. 1000 uptight approaches are not the same thing.

Post: #36

I knew a guy like this once.

Imagine if you only found 10% of girls at club attractive. How many approaches would you do? How DGAF would you feel?

Now imagine you find 100% of girls attractive at every venue, no matter how hideous. What’s more, your competition refuses to approach them. How many more approaches would you do than that other guy? How DGAF would you feel when all girls - even the horrors - are the same to you

A guy who will sleep with anything can rack up absolutely monstrous numbers

Post: #37

(10-22-2018 03:02 PM)realologist Wrote:  

(10-22-2018 02:57 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  I don't want to get laid with the girls that want to fuck the rat.

Interesting post RatInTheWoods

This thread isn't going in the direction I had hoped......

Post: #38

(10-23-2018 04:02 AM)BadBoyGamer Wrote:  

(10-22-2018 11:29 PM)corsega Wrote:  Not trying to kill the buzz here, but am the only one who suspects this is an apocryphal story? If not, would be curious about more information on "The Rat". What city was this in, how did you guys meet? Any idea what he's up to now?

I had to Google "apocryphal".

The story is true. And nothing special for that matter. Plenty of 'rats' around in the world. For some guys it might be difficult to belief and accept. The girl they place on a pedestral in reality actually likes banging with a 'rat'. In fact, 'rats' are much more fun than average guys.

Gotcha. Where in the world was this happening? Amsterdam?

Post: #39

(10-23-2018 02:18 PM)tomzestatlu Wrote:  

(10-23-2018 04:48 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

(10-23-2018 03:59 AM)tomzestatlu Wrote:  In my opinion there are two factors that determine your succes with women.

A: Your value. This means your game, your look, your clothes, your confidence, your lifestyle.
B: Being at the right time, right place with right girl (what includes especially girls emotional state).

If you multiply A x B, you get the result in form of getting or not getting the girl.
That means you can be awesome, but if you approach a girl, who just got pregnant with her partner she is in love with, you probably won´t get her. But on the other hand, if you approached the same girl a year ago she´ll be yours.
Or you can be the rat. He can approachs the girl, that was just dumped by her boyfriend for another girl, got drunk and promised herself, that she will sleep with the first guy she meets. That´s when his "B" score was so high, that "A" score didn´t matter and he still got laid.
While there can be fitness model in expensive suit, who only sits at home and minimalizes B score, that it doesn´t matter how A score is high.

You maximize your score by both approaching and working on yourself. The higher score is, the more and better girls you get.

This is almost completely wrong.

Those things are relevant, but game can take a guy with little value and get him over the finish line. A lot of guys in their 40s and 50s, in the worst shape of their life, are having their best success with women. So its not SMV.

Also, a lot of times the reason for failure is the girl, not you.

There are a lot of factors to the equation. Yours leaves out all of them but 2, and they are not even the most important.

I think that you misunderstood what I´ve written.

No I understood. Let me put it in terms that you will understand. Lets take your equation.

A is the number of approaches. Rat just approached a lot. He might have had high quality approaches, we don't really know, because there is not a lot of information about the quality of his approaches.

B is SMV. So Roissy and Rollo at their sites have written a lot about SMV. I won't redefine it. Its relatively fixed, A although you can slightly improve it gradually through fitness, etc.

You said results is the product of A times B. Well, you ignore almost everything about game.

There is a third factor, C, lets call it game. Results are a factor or A*B*C.

If you approach with bad lines, C<1.

If you are confident, cocky, charming, ZFG attitude, then C>1.

If you look at results as just the product of A times B, it is defeatist. You are essentially denying game.

C is the swing factor, its the fulcrum, its where you can have the most effect with the least effort.

When C is >1, it makes up for low SMV.

There are guys with great physique, wealthy, etc., very high B scores who get zero results because they have a very low A or C score.

Post: #40

I think this "rat" story is like a fable...it never really happened, but it's a good story anyway

So let's turn it around...what is the female version of "rat"?

Post: #41

Well it is a nice fable to whih you get the conclusion that you always need to approach women in order to get results (in other news the water is wet), but I personally don't think playing the number games is a satisfatory way of getting laid, unless the numbers are og quality. If this guy exists, he will not be taking a 7 or + home.

Post: #42

(10-23-2018 04:25 AM)Sgt Donger Wrote:  Hmm, I'm sure these drunk girls that "rat" is pulling from bars must wake up in the morning on the dirty mattress, smelling the piss and beer and dirty sheets...and just want to run away as fast as they can and pretend it didn't happen.

If only this was True...

Post: #43

Female version of rat is a lower class HB3 who stalked some rich doctor with high income amd no previous kids, caught him in a drunken moment when he was thinking with the little head, has unprotected sex after telling the sap she was on the pill, got pregnant, repeated with another guy (who she didn't tell about the first kid, in addition to lying about being on the pill), repeated again. 3 kids with much better genes than she could get from guys in her sexual league, 3 independent streams of top-notch child support plus whatever government freebies she can scoop up. As for sexual pleasure, she has some fuckboys. That's for the female rat who wants kids.

(The long game version where she gets married to the doc and so gets alimony and community assets in addition to child support is not an apple to apples comparison with an ugly male rat sleeping on a piss stained mattress. Doc might fuck a lower class HB3 once, in a moment of stupidity, but he won't marry her.)

If female rat doesn't want children, then we change the story so she gets pregnant and demands a big payoff from doc to get an abortion. Rinse, repeat.

[Later edit] Actually, it wasn't a doctor Female Rat got knocked up by. It was some virgin named Alpha_Ambitionz, who asked the RVF for advice, saying he didn't want to just fuck any old skank, he was ready to wait for quality. The RVF boys took him to task and told him the most important thing was to lose his virginity pronto amd boost his notch count. So Alpha_Ambitionz fueled himself with liquid courage, hit the bars and met Female Rat...

Post: #44

Interesting story, I upvoted the post, but can’t stop thinking about 2 things. Must have been a hella tight and cock-starved period for girls at these venues if they decide to fuck a guy that doesn’t shower or care about his hygiene at all. That's not how IDGAF attitude works in real life.

Secondly, I understand the concept but mark my words some newbies will go out and try this, not put any effort into developing their SMV any further and will face the harsh reality of failure, then come back to the forum and ask why this didn’t work.

Also, you never mentioned what quality of girls this guy pulled, was it even anything higher than a 5? You attract what you are, so wouldn't be surprised if the only girls he fucked were absolutely hideous. But hey, he "doesn't give a fuck" so it's cool, right?

Post: #45

(10-24-2018 04:59 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

(10-23-2018 02:18 PM)tomzestatlu Wrote:  

(10-23-2018 04:48 AM)Hypno Wrote:  

(10-23-2018 03:59 AM)tomzestatlu Wrote:  In my opinion there are two factors that determine your succes with women.

A: Your value. This means your game, your look, your clothes, your confidence, your lifestyle.
B: Being at the right time, right place with right girl (what includes especially girls emotional state).

If you multiply A x B, you get the result in form of getting or not getting the girl.
That means you can be awesome, but if you approach a girl, who just got pregnant with her partner she is in love with, you probably won´t get her. But on the other hand, if you approached the same girl a year ago she´ll be yours.
Or you can be the rat. He can approachs the girl, that was just dumped by her boyfriend for another girl, got drunk and promised herself, that she will sleep with the first guy she meets. That´s when his "B" score was so high, that "A" score didn´t matter and he still got laid.
While there can be fitness model in expensive suit, who only sits at home and minimalizes B score, that it doesn´t matter how A score is high.

You maximize your score by both approaching and working on yourself. The higher score is, the more and better girls you get.

This is almost completely wrong.

Those things are relevant, but game can take a guy with little value and get him over the finish line. A lot of guys in their 40s and 50s, in the worst shape of their life, are having their best success with women. So its not SMV.

Also, a lot of times the reason for failure is the girl, not you.

There are a lot of factors to the equation. Yours leaves out all of them but 2, and they are not even the most important.

I think that you misunderstood what I´ve written.

No I understood. Let me put it in terms that you will understand. Lets take your equation.

A is the number of approaches. Rat just approached a lot. He might have had high quality approaches, we don't really know, because there is not a lot of information about the quality of his approaches.

B is SMV. So Roissy and Rollo at their sites have written a lot about SMV. I won't redefine it. Its relatively fixed, A although you can slightly improve it gradually through fitness, etc.

You said results is the product of A times B. Well, you ignore almost everything about game.

There is a third factor, C, lets call it game. Results are a factor or A*B*C.

If you approach with bad lines, C<1.

If you are confident, cocky, charming, ZFG attitude, then C>1.

If you look at results as just the product of A times B, it is defeatist. You are essentially denying game.

C is the swing factor, its the fulcrum, its where you can have the most effect with the least effort.

When C is >1, it makes up for low SMV.

There are guys with great physique, wealthy, etc., very high B scores who get zero results because they have a very low A or C score.

I understand what you mean. But I didn´t exlude game at all. I only put to "A" (have a look). And I agree that the game is the most important. But I consider game to be part of self-development. On the other hand you can argument, that some of the guys have game without trying to develop anything. That´s about approach of each of us. But I hope now we understand each other.

Post: #46

But your value is separate from game. That is what you are missing.

If you are old and out of shape your SMV is low but can be overcome with game.

If you are rich your value might be high but it's wasted with poor game.

Post: #47

How attractive are the girls?

The girls he pulled can be rated as 5's, 6's or 7's on the hotness scale. Certainly good enough to make me jealous and frustrated. Certainly good enough to get an average dick hard. He did not date models. However he got laid a LOT and plenty girls came back for more.

What makes the 'rat' tick? What is his secret?

It is about mindset. Frame. It has been said many times that frame is everything. And it is. Nothing is more important. Frame is the essence of Game.

The 'rat' did not care about anything. Except for perhaps beer.

He especially did not care about girls. He only desired to bang 'em. And even that was considered to be optional. Give him the choice between a good cold beer and a girl to bang it be fifthy-fifthy.

To him girls are just 'bitches to fuck'. Nothing more nothing less. He did not "talk" to girls. He entertained himself. He told jokes he thought be funny. He did not care if anyone else thought the joke to be funny. He told it to make himself laugh. If he thought it be funny to grab some random ass, he did. Any reaction he got was funny. That was the whole point of grabbing in the first place.

If he got arrested he thought it to be his lucky day. He be making fun of cops just to see what happens. Especially female cops. He tried to bang 'em. Luckily this is not the USA. He be shot there. He got away with it most of the times. This is Amsterdam.

When he pulled a girl it was quick. At worst the process from meet to getting out of the venue was 30 minutes. And that is a worst case scenario. The walk back home could easy take 20 minutes. Every single girl (from what I observed) that walked out of the venue ended up in his bedroom. Logistics where bad. He did not care.

I have no idea what he did in the bedroom. I could hear laughing and hear them fuck. It stopped me from sleeping plenty of times.

How to become a 'rat'?

You place girls on a pedestal. You think you do not, but you do. You care about the outcome, your appearance and how you are perceived. You care about getting a result. You care about all kinds of things. A 'rat' does not care.

I only want high quality girls!

I want a pony.

But seriously, I only want high quality!

Lift heavy weights. Take a shower. Do some homework. Get a bit of money. Learn Game. Done!

Quote:Often these types are able to give a girl more of an emotional experience than the men that are doing everything right. The ideal of course is to combine the two, but high achievement takes a delayed gratification kind of mindset which is the direct opposite of the kind of behavior that is attractive to women in the club.

This!

Quote:The lesson of the rat is not just to play the numbers game. It's the DGAF attitude. 1000 uptight approaches are not the same thing.

This!

corsega Wrote:Gotcha. Where in the world was this happening? Amsterdam?

Amsterdam. Yes. My city. It should be a separate country.

I know very little about the life of 'the rat'. He stole my stuff and sold me a broken chair. Only tried to figure out how he did it. Then I got the hell away.

Sgt Donger Wrote:So let's turn it around...what is the female version of "rat"?

This question is why you do not believe the story about the 'rat'. Point at a random girl.

Every single girl I know has had more sex and did more crazy things than imaginable. Girls start as soon as they get attention from boys at age twelve or something close. From that point on they can do whatever the fuck they want while pretending they do not.

When it comes to sex girls live in a world of abundance. A feast of sex. A banquet table of sex, available at every moment. What do you think happens? Scary is is not?

Post: #48

When you say this is in fact not a parable and a real story with no exaggerations (like the smelling like piss part):

Post: #49

Plot twist the rat is RSD Tyler.

Post: #50

Lol