Post: #26

(10-11-2018 11:20 AM)FLGuy1988 Wrote:  Atlanta looks good Southern women, SEC colleges all of that is a plus compared to Miami/Ft Lauderdale, The one thing though That I love about south florida is if your in relatively good shape Abs 6 pack it makes game very easy at the beaches because you can just walk around topless and women will look and that is the only thing you don't get in atlanta is the beach game other than that solid choice

There are indeed a lot of hot blonde southern girls here, but they seem to be cliquish and largely live in the suburbs. In midtown, its like any white collar work-oriented major metro but with significantly higher black cultural influence.

Post: #27

(10-10-2018 11:38 PM)GoingHAM20 Wrote:  I don't think Atlanta is good logistically. It's a sprawling city with crappy public transit.

That being said, if you live and work in Midtown or Buckhead, logistics will be no issue for you.

I really like Atlanta. It's similar to Chicago in that while the murder rate is high, the violent crime is almost entirely isolated in the ghettos. Midtown and Buckhead are both quite safe.

Are you into black girls? There are a lot of black women. If you're not into chocolate shorties, I'd be hesitant to move to Atlanta.

Peachtree St. runs up from downtown to Midtown to Buckhead. There are always some daygame opportunities on that street. Georgia State is also a massive university in Downtown ATL.

When I head back to Atlanta, I'm definitely gonna take a look at Atlantic Station (an upscale outdoor mall in West Midtown) and a closer look at Buckhead.

Logistics aren't nearly as bad as LA or NYC. You can pretty easily get anywhere in the metro area in 20-30 minutes after about 8pm, as traffic usually dies down considerably. Uber has made things a LOT easier, and rides run about $3-$6 intown. Yes, a lot of girls will be driving far to the club. But even so, they are probably only 20 minutes away from their home (or yours) if it's night. You can drive from downtown Atlanta to a typical suburb in about 20-30 minutes, and not more than 45 unless she lives in the mountains or something.

Having said that, Atlanta has about 100,000 new condos in the past few years. It's not the same town it was 5-10 years ago. A LOT more people live intown and there's a lot more nightlife than there was a few years back. Atlanta is no longer the backwards southern city it once was. Atlanta is not 95% suburbs the way it once was. Even the suburbs are a lot nicer than they were. Check out Avalon in alpharetta which is like a super upscale mall and nightlife spot.

But yeah, if you live out in the boonies and don't have a car, the public transit is pretty slow, except on the main rail lines which only cover about 10% of the metro area (mostly the downtown, buckhead, etc). You are best here to have a car or live in one of the nighlife areas.

Atlantic Station is pretty cool. But the new trendy area is Ponce City Market and the eastside beltline. Great for daygame, but kinda dead after 10pm. Edgewood avenue and Krog street market are nearby though. Edgewood avenue is a major nightlife area, like a smaller hipster version of buckhead.

Buckhead is indisputably the number one nightlife spot in Atlanta if you are looking for massive numbers of hot girls in one exact block. But not all of buckhead is like that (it's like a small city). You have to go to the area around Buckhead Saloon, or Churchill's, Stagecoach, etc which are all within a block and are absolutely packed on weekends unless the weather is abysmal (pretty rare in Atlanta). There's some very close parking in the office parking lots on east andrews street if you pay. Street parking is also available usually.

The area around Tongue and Groove nightclub is a pretty great place too, very central to Atlanta. And that nightclub was said by RSD Luke "to not supposed to exist" meaning that it's an incredible club for very cheap entry. I heard him say that. And RSD Luke lives in Las Vegas so he's pretty knowledgeable.

And only about 1 mile south of that is the strip club area, plus Atlanta's biggest central park (piedmont park)

Post: #28

If you want white girls then as stated earlier in the thread, most other southern cities are a better bet.

I do want to ask this to southerners on this board since I have had a friend who told me this and I've had this experience with most people from Atlanta as well as during the few stays I have had in the city, what is up with people from that city compared to elsewhere in the south?

My impression of southerners themselves is great but people from the Atlanta area seem really dry, rude and its almost like they took everyone from some snobby suburb in New Jersey and put them in Atlanta. Most people I knew from the city had that social ladder climber mentality of either you help them become more cool and popular or you're invisible. We had a few folks from Georgia schools when I was up in NYC and it was always being stuck in the cliquish high school popularity games contest well into their 20s, I mean more so than folks from anywhere else.

The other thing I notice is that they hate being considered southerners and desperately try to act like they're from the north, even the ones who were born there. I have heard them say things like "at least we're not Alabama or Mississippi" and talk shit about how horrible and backwards the rest of the south is.

A forum member I've been PMing with back and forth told me about how he runs into so many sorority girl types that support Hillary which he claims is definitely an Atlanta thing.

I notice they do tend to gossip a great deal too and be really closed off towards most outsiders.

It's like the way Roosh described DC can apply to Atlanta and I never really got it either because I don't experience this with people elsewhere in the south.

Anyone want to shed some light?

Post: #29

(10-13-2018 09:22 PM)a beer is enough Wrote:  If you want white girls then as stated earlier in the thread, most other southern cities are a better bet.

I do want to ask this to southerners on this board since I have had a friend who told me this and I've had this experience with most people from Atlanta as well as during the few stays I have had in the city, what is up with people from that city compared to elsewhere in the south?

My impression of southerners themselves is great but people from the Atlanta area seem really dry, rude and its almost like they took everyone from some snobby suburb in New Jersey and put them in Atlanta. Most people I knew from the city had that social ladder climber mentality of either you help them become more cool and popular or you're invisible. We had a few folks from Georgia schools when I was up in NYC and it was always being stuck in the cliquish high school popularity games contest well into their 20s, I mean more so than folks from anywhere else.

The other thing I notice is that they hate being considered southerners and desperately try to act like they're from the north, even the ones who were born there. I have heard them say things like "at least we're not Alabama or Mississippi" and talk shit about how horrible and backwards the rest of the south is.

A forum member I've been PMing with back and forth told me about how he runs into so many sorority girl types that support Hillary which he claims is definitely an Atlanta thing.

I notice they do tend to gossip a great deal too and be really closed off towards most outsiders.

It's like the way Roosh described DC can apply to Atlanta and I never really got it either because I don't experience this with people elsewhere in the south.

Anyone want to shed some light?

The reason is that the majority of the white population in the core counties of metro Atlanta (Fulton, DeKalb, Gwinnett, Cobb, and south Forsyth) are actually NOT from the South. Most of them are indeed transplants from all over the country with strong Asian immigrant populations too. A huge percentage of Atlantans are just 1 generation removed from New Jersey in fact.

Because the amount of transplants that moved (and continue to move) to Atlanta was so high, instead of northerners becoming southern, the transplants managed to change the culture of Atlanta into something strongly resembling NoVa. In fact, I've heard Atlanta suburbs being compared to NoVa quite frequently. Southern accents among millennial and even Gen-X whites in Atlanta are almost nonexistent.

You essentially have a few million northern suburbanites transplanted to a deep south State, bringing with them both the rat race mentality and even worse, insecurity. Unlike a city like Charleston or Nashville, which while also popular with transplants, a critical mass of them specifically chose these cities because they like the southern culture, they still retain a distinctive southern flavor. On the other hand, Atlanta is just the regional business center of the Southeast, and has been attracting a shit ton of jobs and corporatiosn due to cheaper real estate and ease of doing business. The transplants originally came here strictly for the jobs, not for the culture. Their children, now the majority of what you would call "white suburban Atlantans", act like typical blue state metropolitan area kids but with an added inferiority complex as a result.

Regarding the sorority girls who are essentially better looking liberal careerists, they mostly come from transplant families and born/raised in transplant-dominated suburbs, so they are not southern at all and actively look down on it.

For example, I went to a country concert in Buckhead the other day, and almost nobody there is from the aforementioned core counties.

However, there's still some upper class southerners in this city who are attracted by the same high paying jobs. They are cliquish and keep to themselves though with their SEC fraternities and old boys' networks.

Post: #30

(10-13-2018 09:22 PM)a beer is enough Wrote:  If you want white girls then as stated earlier in the thread, most other southern cities are a better bet.

I do want to ask this to southerners on this board since I have had a friend who told me this and I've had this experience with most people from Atlanta as well as during the few stays I have had in the city, what is up with people from that city compared to elsewhere in the south?

My impression of southerners themselves is great but people from the Atlanta area seem really dry, rude and its almost like they took everyone from some snobby suburb in New Jersey and put them in Atlanta. Most people I knew from the city had that social ladder climber mentality of either you help them become more cool and popular or you're invisible. We had a few folks from Georgia schools when I was up in NYC and it was always being stuck in the cliquish high school popularity games contest well into their 20s, I mean more so than folks from anywhere else.

The other thing I notice is that they hate being considered southerners and desperately try to act like they're from the north, even the ones who were born there. I have heard them say things like "at least we're not Alabama or Mississippi" and talk shit about how horrible and backwards the rest of the south is.

A forum member I've been PMing with back and forth told me about how he runs into so many sorority girl types that support Hillary which he claims is definitely an Atlanta thing.

I notice they do tend to gossip a great deal too and be really closed off towards most outsiders.

It's like the way Roosh described DC can apply to Atlanta and I never really got it either because I don't experience this with people elsewhere in the south.

Anyone want to shed some light?

This has not been my experience at all. I think there are a lot of folks posting in this thread who have only spent limited amounts of time in Atlanta or had bad luck cracking it.

This is probably the best city for women of any color in the South, and the closest comparable cities would be Miami, DC, or Houston/Dallas.

Atlanta probably has the nicest people compared to any of those cities. There are plenty of white women here, and if you talk to them they will tell you the ratio favors men. A lot of them move to Denver in their late 20s early 30s if they still dont have a prospect for a husband - I personally know several who did.

Atlanta is a regional capital and people come here from across the South. Most people are pretty darn proud of being southern. Realize that someone from Charleston is very different from someone from Mississippi or someone from Tennessee. Even the accents are different. But this is why its the college football capital of the country - its a major crossroads and melting pot, and historically the NFL didn't place teams in the South. That's why Alabama and Tennessee and LSU draw over 100,000 to their games and the Falcons and Saints and Tampa and the Titans draw 50,000.

There are an increasing number of people from the North and Midwest, esp Michigan due to automobile industry. But on a percentage basis there are fewer northerners in Atlanta than say Charlotte or Nashville or Orlando.

The biggest disadvantages are to me as a white that there are large minority populations and what this means for logistics and convenience. I live in a very diverse suburb and I enjoy it. But I'm not going to game most black or latina women. But my son has been invited to birthday parties where he was the only white kid. I don't view that as a badge of honor or anything, its just a symptom of the fact that people generally get along, and black dads like the same stuff as white dads. But if I had my wish, I'd replace black and latina women with white women, but thats just my personal preference. I'd even replace blonde white women with brunettes, again because that is my personal preference. I only mention this because its related to the other limitation of Atlanta.

Atlanta neighborhoods tend to be self-segregating, more so than anywhere else I have ever lived. The west side is republican, east democrat. There are jewish neighborhoods and korean neighborhoods and latin neighborhoods etc. I tried to buy a house in a gentrifing korean neighborhood and the agent wouldn't show it to me because I wasn't korean. Same thing in the jewish neighborhood, although there it made sense because they keep striclty kosher and walk to temple on the sabbath.

But if you are gaming, and have a particular preference, then there are whole neighborhoods that are a waste of time. I had an asian member pm me and ask me what neighborhoods for white women. He wasn't interested in Asians, Latinas, or blacks. So your best shot are midtown, buckhead, and sandy springs and Cobb County suburbs like Kennesaw, but those are either the most expensive suburbs or most distant.

The East beltway is very popular, but its right next to the murder Kroger and lots of halfway houses. And its some of the most expensive real estate in the city now. I have a friend who sells high-end condos there for $400 a square foot. In the suburbs you can get a 2500 sft townhouse with a 2-car garage for about $110 a square foot, but that same townhouse in Sandy Springs might be almost $200, even more the closer to Buckhead proper you get. More common is smaller condos in Buckhead and midtown, and again you are going to be paying around $200 sft. or more. So you read a bunch of griping about there are no women in Atlanta but its because guys are making tradeoffs. You pay half as much if you deal with inconvenience. You read some griping about crime, but that is very neighborhood dependent. Again, if you are cheaping out and living in a shithole, you have to expect crime.

Still, Atlanta has an amazing ratio of job opportunities to cost of living, although cost of living is going up. Admittedly, Dallas and Houston are pretty good on those scales too. Depending on what you like though, Atlanta can be very inconvenient.

Nashville and Charlotte are very hot these days but are much smaller and more limited places and much more expensive to live.

I've had girls take Ubers to me from downtown, Lindberg, Buckhead, kennesaw, etc. Its usually about 20-30 min and about a dollar a minute. At my point in life, I'd rather pay for an uber than waste my time driving. I also like not leaving my house.

I'm not going to claim that Atlanta is better than Miami, Dallas, Houston, or DC, but its on par with those. Some things are better and some things are worse. I would just point out that a lot of the criticism of Atlanta in this thread are overblown.

As far as white girls go, the next closest city for white girls that would be better would probably be Tampa, which is much smaller and has less professional opportunities, or Dallas.

As for what is Atlanta like, I would say its like Dallas in that most people are focussed on business and that its fairly bland. Racially its got a lot of everything like Houston. There are a decent number of northern transplants. We seem to get a lot more Steelers fans than Pirates fans, and a lot more Cubs fans than Bears fans. (I find the northern transplants a bit more obnoxious than the Southern transplants, and the worst are probably the ones from Boston. Atlanta is probably third or fourth in health care and life sciences in the country, after San Diego and Boston, so there are lots of folks who relo here.)

Of course I'm white, was in a fraternity, and did well enough with sorority girls even when I was in college. I don't think social circles are as inpenetrable as people think. On the other hand, I think a lot of guys who are not the white fraternity type come to Atlanta, see all the southern blondes, and get offended when those girls reject them. But I get rejected by the Latinas and Asians and Black women (mostly). Its not because of social circles, its because those women have a type that they prefer. Just because You move to Atlanta does not make you desirable to THEM.

Post: #31

The issue isn't women having a type, nothing wrong with that at all, but as a man we are going to go towards where we have the best opportunity to get the kinds of women we want plain and simple. Women are allowed to have a type all they want just like men should be allowed to go wherever they want to get their type as well as knowing how strict that type for a woman is. It just so happens that other than black women in Atlanta, that type is a lot more strict than elsewhere and I attribute that to the image heavy rat-race culture.

I'll say that other than gaming black women, Atlanta is rough for gaming all other types. White women in and from the city that I've known have been significantly more prudish whether it is the ex-sorority girl from an SEC school or the hyper-leftist you might run into in midtown.

I have found that compared to Nashville or Charleston where girls are down to meet up with a cool good looking guy if he has game, in Atlanta it is strictly social circle.

It is kind of a strange phenomenon to see in places like Buckhead too where you will see a hideous looking dude with a hot girl and then realize it is because they care a lot about Greek Life years after college. All a tight knit social circle if you want some of the hotter girls and if you were not a part of it in college, you'll never be a part of it. Hell, one of my friends who is a bartender in NYC moved to Atlanta to get a bartending job and he was told for some of the bars, they prefer to hire "southern" men (guys who went to SEC schools).

I'll give credit where credit is due, Atlanta offers far more economic opportunity than Nashville, Charleston or any other city in the south which is why I am even talking about the city on this thread as I have to go there on and off during the year.

The issue is that when it comes to game, I'll say it belongs in the same discussion as Toronto, San Francisco and DC unless you're into black women.

Even the Indian women I met in the city were straight trash compared to Indian girls I met in Chicago and NYC.

Aquarius nailed it and I have to agree with him, there is just something extremely toxic about the culture of the city and I think it belongs in the same bucket as DC and Toronto.

I have genuinely felt like if you are not a part of some "in crowd" in Atlanta, you'll lose out time and time again even if you are more handsome and have better game than some bubba with a gut and that applies to gaming white women, Latinas and brown women.

The single women figures are skewed because the city is majority black but it did not seem like for other races of women that this is the case. I'll say that Atlanta, despite its size and cosmopolitan mask, is by far the most social circle heavy city I have ever gamed in.

Complete waste of time to run game in Buckhead as it is all tightly cliquish folks that stay loyal to their college social circles, very much unlike NYC where women just hunt more for quality.

Post: #32

Beer hit the nail on the head here. You definitely see more black girls than black guys during the day, many of them dressed extremely sexy even during the day. If anyone likes black girls but aren't ready to take the plunge into Africa (besides South Africa), there's no place in the world better than Atlanta.

On the other hand, the white population here is essentially San Francisco or DC inside the perimeter. Obesity surprisingly isn't a big issue, but its the toxic mix of careerism, leftism, toxic feminism, and hipsterdom that plagues the intown neighborhoods extremely hard.

Buckhead, and points north (Brookhaven and Sandy Springs for example) and Cobb County has the more southern sorority types. I'm not too familiar with these areas, but as Beer says, they are pretty cliquish up there, as the SEC Greek Life system can at times more resemble an old boys aristocratic network than just a bunch of college kids partying.

Post: #33

Before this turns into a "where the white women at?" thread, I wanted to mention how letdown I have been by the lack of variety of women in Atlanta compared to most major cities I've been to and how it is only two groups that have quality women in it.

I can understand why the mate-guarding is so bad in Atlanta compared to most other cities I have been to, it is because outside of black women, the only group that has a reasonable number of hot girls in it are the ex-sorority girl types.

Given how it has the busiest airport in the world and a film industry growing like crazy, I have been appalled at the lack of international talent in the city. It seems like if you are not into black women or the ex-sorority bimbo types, you're SOL in Atlanta.

Whenever I went to game in NYC, you didn't just have "white women". You had European girls of various types (Eastern Euro, Western Euro, etc.), drop dead gorgeous hipster girls that laughed at the fratty lifestyle, ex-sorority girl types from major schools moving to the hippest part of the city to live the Sex and the City lifestyle and even the vegan/hippie types. I had the same experience in Chicago as well, the international talent in the city was popping.

Now that is not to mention the top notch quality of Latina, Asian and brown pussy that was available as well.

I'll still stick to what I said earlier in that Charleston, Nashville and a host of other southern cities are a lot better if the All American country girl is your type.

Post: #34

So, like I said, I was born and raised in Atlanta. I agree with most of the comments on here, except that I don't agree that gaming here is anything close to impossible or pointless. I have an east indian friend who goes home with white girls almost every night. A lot of them fit that sorority girl type. Yeah, you aren't going to easily get 9 and 10s like in NYC. Here, they aren't everywhere but tons of cute and hot girls are around., day or night. My local target and whole foods in sandy springs is crawling with cute girls by themselves.

My friend's game is pretty solid, though. He approaches like a mad man (like over 100 girls a night if he needs to). So, going out at night you should have some game or be good looking. I agree that the culture tends to be either hipster, college, hip hop, or country crowds.

Overall, it's definitely not an "easy" city. I agree that the social circle thing is big, definitely a college mentality for a lot of people. A lot of people move here from the south and only know their college friends and tend to stick with them. I've found the hipster crowd to be the most open, and I grew up with that crowd so it's my main circle. I think the races mix pretty well though in this city, compared to chicago for example. It's rare to go out and not see people of all races at a club.

I don't think I'll stay here the rest of my life, as it's not easy going enough for me overall (I'm from a hippy background, not the preppy college football crowd). I'd be happier in the west coast, NYC, or even florida probably. Having said that, there are tons of people who are hippies, listen to EDM music, etc,etc. Georgia State university is full of hot white girls who like black guys (hint, intelligent black guys can do well).

I never gamed much in Dallas or Houston, but I'd say Atlanta is very similar in feeling and layout to those cities (I spent a few days in both). However, Atlanta is much more beautiful, as there are a lot more large trees and the entire city is very hilly or mountainous, with streams and rivers in almost every backyard.

Atlanta is a very solid choice if you're going to be in the southeast and need job opportunities. Would I move here just for the girls if I lived in another part of the country? Probably not. At the same time, I think most people can thrive here if they game hard or do well online (tinder, etc). I don't think it can quite be compared to DC or Toronto (never been), as most girls are in decent shape and there's nearly always cute girls to be found in sets.

Having said that, it's probably not like NYC where girls might just go out on their own, be very independent and do what they want. There are some girls like that here, but most girls go out in pairs or with groups at night. Daygame could be very very productive however.

I would say there is an abundance of girls who are 6s-8s, with 9s and 10s out there too if you look in the right places. If you like red headed or blonde blue eyes girls, black girls, there's tons. Asians and latinas too, but yeah you're not going to see stunning models everywhere like you would in Miami. I think the hottest girls in Atlanta are the white girls (mostly 6s-8s college type red head/dirty blonde girls). If you come here hoping that it's going to be NYC with amazing women from brazil and ukraine dropping out of the sky left and right, well you might be let down. But, you will definitely come across plenty of exotic girls in the right places. In fact, whole areas of the metro are now latina, asian, russian, etc.. I think a big difference is that here the hot exotic girls from brazil, etc are a hot commodity and they're harder to get maybe than NYC. at the same time, there might be fewer 10s, but local guy's game is not really amazing. It's rare for me to even see many approaches when I go out.

Having said that, I would never recommend that a guy with no game move here just to meet girls. It's not a particularly easy city, although I doubt it's as hard as DC or Toronto (from what I've heard).

I've done almost exclusively online game. If you are under 30 it's been cake from what I hear (although maybe getting harder). I'm not that young so I do pretty well but finding it a lot harder as I get older as about half the girls online are not attractive in the least bit. Again about half are very cute and half you wouldn't want to touch at all. When I compare tinder here to Los Angeles, LA is much more consistent as far as the vast majority of the girls are fuckable. Whereas on tinder here about half aren't. However, if you are young and good looing/or have great photos you should do ok online. I know some young good looking dudes that do quite well to the point they don't have to go out at all to get hot girls over.

If anyone comes to Atlanta for a trip, I recommend Dragon Con which is in early september. Downtown gets overrun with cute girls in costumes, and the hotels have like a dozen ballroom raves until the wee hours. I recommend sharing a hotel with someone in the main dragon con hotels (which are about $500-$1000 a night). 2 -8 people will share a hotel room. It's an amazing huge party.

google "marriott dragoncon" for some great photos.

Post: #35

(10-15-2018 08:08 PM)kavakid Wrote:  So, like I said, I was born and raised in Atlanta. I agree with most of the comments on here, except that I don't agree that gaming here is anything close to impossible or pointless. I have an east indian friend who goes home with white girls almost every night. A lot of them fit that sorority girl type. Yeah, you aren't going to easily get 9 and 10s like in NYC. Here, they aren't everywhere but tons of cute and hot girls are around., day or night. My local target and whole foods in sandy springs is crawling with cute girls by themselves.

My friend's game is pretty solid, though. He approaches like a mad man (like over 100 girls a night if he needs to). So, going out at night you should have some game or be good looking. I agree that the culture tends to be either hipster, college, hip hop, or country crowds.

Overall, it's definitely not an "easy" city. I agree that the social circle thing is big, definitely a college mentality for a lot of people. A lot of people move here from the south and only know their college friends and tend to stick with them. I've found the hipster crowd to be the most open, and I grew up with that crowd so it's my main circle. I think the races mix pretty well though in this city, compared to chicago for example. It's rare to go out and not see people of all races at a club.

I don't think I'll stay here the rest of my life, as it's not easy going enough for me overall (I'm from a hippy background, not the preppy college football crowd). I'd be happier in the west coast, NYC, or even florida probably. Having said that, there are tons of people who are hippies, listen to EDM music, etc,etc. Georgia State university is full of hot white girls who like black guys (hint, intelligent black guys can do well).

I never gamed much in Dallas or Houston, but I'd say Atlanta is very similar in feeling and layout to those cities (I spent a few days in both). However, Atlanta is much more beautiful, as there are a lot more large trees and the entire city is very hilly or mountainous, with streams and rivers in almost every backyard.

Atlanta is a very solid choice if you're going to be in the southeast and need job opportunities. Would I move here just for the girls if I lived in another part of the country? Probably not. At the same time, I think most people can thrive here if they game hard or do well online (tinder, etc). I don't think it can quite be compared to DC or Toronto (never been), as most girls are in decent shape and there's nearly always cute girls to be found in sets.

Having said that, it's probably not like NYC where girls might just go out on their own, be very independent and do what they want. There are some girls like that here, but most girls go out in pairs or with groups at night. Daygame could be very very productive however.

I would say there is an abundance of girls who are 6s-8s, with 9s and 10s out there too if you look in the right places. If you like red headed or blonde blue eyes girls, black girls, there's tons. Asians and latinas too, but yeah you're not going to see stunning models everywhere like you would in Miami. I think the hottest girls in Atlanta are the white girls (mostly 6s-8s college type red head/dirty blonde girls). If you come here hoping that it's going to be NYC with amazing women from brazil and ukraine dropping out of the sky left and right, well you might be let down. But, you will definitely come across plenty of exotic girls in the right places. In fact, whole areas of the metro are now latina, asian, russian, etc.. I think a big difference is that here the hot exotic girls from brazil, etc are a hot commodity and they're harder to get maybe than NYC. at the same time, there might be fewer 10s, but local guy's game is not really amazing. It's rare for me to even see many approaches when I go out.

Good post. I'm also in Atlanta and will agree. If you or your friends like to go to bars/clubs I'm always down for a meetup.

Post: #36

(10-15-2018 01:51 PM)a beer is enough Wrote:  Before this turns into a "where the white women at?" thread, I wanted to mention how letdown I have been by the lack of variety of women in Atlanta compared to most major cities I've been to and how it is only two groups that have quality women in it.

I meet lots of Germans professionally due to the auto industry nearby. There are a bunch who live in Alpharetta. Mercedes and Porshe's north american headquarters is here as well as Lufthansa and I think Siemens. BMW and VW have big factories 2 hours away.

There are a ton of Brazillians in Marietta. There is an entire neighborhood of Brazillian churches and restaurants there. This is in East Marietta near Powers Ferry and Terril Mill roads. There are lots of Colombians and Venezuelans in Marietta close to Smyrna, near Dobbins AFB. I know the (Mexican restaurant) that Miguel Almiron (Paraguayan) and Josef Martinez (Venezuelan) go to, its run by a Colombian guy. If those names aren't familar to you, they are the stars of Atlanta's soccer team

There are lots of FOB mexicans and asians along Buford highway.

There are a lot of FOB Africans in east Dekalb and upper Gwinnett. If you go to the Dekalb Farmers market its like everyone who works there got teleported from Africa.

There is a big Polish expat community in Woodstock. There are lots of Russians and South Africans and whites from Mozambique here too, these folks are higher net worth and they are in the nicer parts of Marietta, Sandy Springs, and Dunwoody.

There is a lot in Atlanta, its just really spread out and specific to certain areas.

Atlanta is not all that sophisticated, its not New York or LA, but man its got a lot of people from all over the world here. I've personally met people from Brazil, Mexico, Columbia, Peru, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, China, Taiwan, Mozambique, South Africa, Italy, Germany, Albania, Poland, Russia, Belarus, Croatia, South Africa, Greece, Israel, Korea, probably a bunch I'm forgetting.

Post: #37

(10-15-2018 08:57 PM)Hypno Wrote:  

(10-15-2018 01:51 PM)a beer is enough Wrote:  Before this turns into a "where the white women at?" thread, I wanted to mention how letdown I have been by the lack of variety of women in Atlanta compared to most major cities I've been to and how it is only two groups that have quality women in it.

I meet lots of Germans professionally due to the auto industry nearby. There are a bunch who live in Alpharetta. Mercedes and Porshe's north american headquarters is here as well as Lufthansa and I think Siemens. BMW and VW have big factories 2 hours away.

There are a ton of Brazillians in Marietta. There is an entire neighborhood of Brazillian churches and restaurants there. This is in East Marietta near Powers Ferry and Terril Mill roads. There are lots of Colombians and Venezuelans in Marietta close to Smyrna, near Dobbins AFB. I know the (Mexican restaurant) that Miguel Almiron (Paraguayan) and Josef Martinez (Venezuelan) go to, its run by a Colombian guy. If those names aren't familar to you, they are the stars of Atlanta's soccer team

There are lots of FOB mexicans and asians along Buford highway.

There are a lot of FOB Africans in east Dekalb and upper Gwinnett. If you go to the Dekalb Farmers market its like everyone who works there got teleported from Africa.

There is a big Polish expat community in Woodstock. There are lots of Russians and South Africans and whites from Mozambique here too, these folks are higher net worth and they are in the nicer parts of Marietta, Sandy Springs, and Dunwoody.

There is a lot in Atlanta, its just really spread out and specific to certain areas.

Atlanta is not all that sophisticated, its not New York or LA, but man its got a lot of people from all over the world here. I've personally met people from Brazil, Mexico, Columbia, Peru, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, China, Taiwan, Mozambique, South Africa, Italy, Germany, Albania, Poland, Russia, Belarus, Croatia, South Africa, Greece, Israel, Korea, probably a bunch I'm forgetting.

Sounds like Atlanta, Houston & Dallas are the largest international business hub cities in the South. Followed by Miami for the more Latin-focused stuff.

Post: #38

(10-15-2018 10:46 PM)jordypip23 Wrote:  

(10-15-2018 08:57 PM)Hypno Wrote:  

(10-15-2018 01:51 PM)a beer is enough Wrote:  Before this turns into a "where the white women at?" thread, I wanted to mention how letdown I have been by the lack of variety of women in Atlanta compared to most major cities I've been to and how it is only two groups that have quality women in it.

I meet lots of Germans professionally due to the auto industry nearby. There are a bunch who live in Alpharetta. Mercedes and Porshe's north american headquarters is here as well as Lufthansa and I think Siemens. BMW and VW have big factories 2 hours away.

There are a ton of Brazillians in Marietta. There is an entire neighborhood of Brazillian churches and restaurants there. This is in East Marietta near Powers Ferry and Terril Mill roads. There are lots of Colombians and Venezuelans in Marietta close to Smyrna, near Dobbins AFB. I know the (Mexican restaurant) that Miguel Almiron (Paraguayan) and Josef Martinez (Venezuelan) go to, its run by a Colombian guy. If those names aren't familar to you, they are the stars of Atlanta's soccer team

There are lots of FOB mexicans and asians along Buford highway.

There are a lot of FOB Africans in east Dekalb and upper Gwinnett. If you go to the Dekalb Farmers market its like everyone who works there got teleported from Africa.

There is a big Polish expat community in Woodstock. There are lots of Russians and South Africans and whites from Mozambique here too, these folks are higher net worth and they are in the nicer parts of Marietta, Sandy Springs, and Dunwoody.

There is a lot in Atlanta, its just really spread out and specific to certain areas.

Atlanta is not all that sophisticated, its not New York or LA, but man its got a lot of people from all over the world here. I've personally met people from Brazil, Mexico, Columbia, Peru, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, China, Taiwan, Mozambique, South Africa, Italy, Germany, Albania, Poland, Russia, Belarus, Croatia, South Africa, Greece, Israel, Korea, probably a bunch I'm forgetting.

Sounds like Atlanta, Houston & Dallas are the largest international business hub cities in the South. Followed by Miami for the more Latin-focused stuff.

Houston and Dallas are in Texas, which is its own distinctive region in my opinion. Atlanta is the main international business hub in the Southeast. Miami might as well be the unofficial capital of Latin America: All Latin Americans who can afford to travel or a second home are frequent visitors to Miami or have property there.

I agree with Hypno that Atlanta definitely does have a very large international scene. However, its pretty small for a North American city its size and stature.

Overall, I'd say its an extremely ethnically and culturally diverse city with no real racial or cultural majority. The southern culture is here, but just one of the multiple facets of this city.

If one treats this city as just a regular American city of the same population size (e.g. DC, Bay Area, Boston, Houston, etc.), its definitely no slouch, especially if one likes black and mixed race girls.

If anyone is expecting a metropolitan-scale SEC mid-tier and above sorority house or country music video, you'll be in for a shock, very, very negatively. If we toss these expectations out of the window, white girls here are what you would expect for a career-oriented city its size in North America.

Post: #39

(10-15-2018 10:46 PM)jordypip23 Wrote:  

(10-15-2018 08:57 PM)Hypno Wrote:  

(10-15-2018 01:51 PM)a beer is enough Wrote:  Before this turns into a "where the white women at?" thread, I wanted to mention how letdown I have been by the lack of variety of women in Atlanta compared to most major cities I've been to and how it is only two groups that have quality women in it.

I meet lots of Germans professionally due to the auto industry nearby. There are a bunch who live in Alpharetta. Mercedes and Porshe's north american headquarters is here as well as Lufthansa and I think Siemens. BMW and VW have big factories 2 hours away.

There are a ton of Brazillians in Marietta. There is an entire neighborhood of Brazillian churches and restaurants there. This is in East Marietta near Powers Ferry and Terril Mill roads. There are lots of Colombians and Venezuelans in Marietta close to Smyrna, near Dobbins AFB. I know the (Mexican restaurant) that Miguel Almiron (Paraguayan) and Josef Martinez (Venezuelan) go to, its run by a Colombian guy. If those names aren't familar to you, they are the stars of Atlanta's soccer team

There are lots of FOB mexicans and asians along Buford highway.

There are a lot of FOB Africans in east Dekalb and upper Gwinnett. If you go to the Dekalb Farmers market its like everyone who works there got teleported from Africa.

There is a big Polish expat community in Woodstock. There are lots of Russians and South Africans and whites from Mozambique here too, these folks are higher net worth and they are in the nicer parts of Marietta, Sandy Springs, and Dunwoody.

There is a lot in Atlanta, its just really spread out and specific to certain areas.

Atlanta is not all that sophisticated, its not New York or LA, but man its got a lot of people from all over the world here. I've personally met people from Brazil, Mexico, Columbia, Peru, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France, China, Taiwan, Mozambique, South Africa, Italy, Germany, Albania, Poland, Russia, Belarus, Croatia, South Africa, Greece, Israel, Korea, probably a bunch I'm forgetting.

Sounds like Atlanta, Houston & Dallas are the largest international business hub cities in the South. Followed by Miami for the more Latin-focused stuff.

Yessir.

Strength of business presence tends to be a product of metro area population, and those three cities are, by far, the 3 biggest metros in the South (I don't really consider Miami to be a Southern city, because although it's far South geographically, its culture is more Latina or even Northern than Southern).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_me...ical_areas

Post: #40

While I will get to the international talent part later on, there is something I want to bring up.

One of the things I have loved about southern girls which makes them some of my favorite women in the country are not only their looks but also their personality. A lot of them have that bold but also friendly lively personality that makes them so fun to game. I notice this a lot with girls from states like Tennessee, South Carolina, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi. Now I notice Hypno said the south is different based on states and all that which is why I wanted to bring it up on this thread.

GA girls do not really seem to have that kind of a personality at all, their personality from my experience of not only gaming in Atlanta but running into girls from the city elsewhere is a lot more try, cold, uncaring and it just seems like they've had the life sucked out of them. I think it might have to do with the flashy culture of the city but there is definitely a huge difference between them and other southern girls.

One forum member who PM'd me said how he knows so many sorority girl types that support Hillary and how it is exclusively a GA thing. I've met some exceptions, knew one cool blonde HB8 from Statesboro and ended up being FWB with a tanned brunette HB8 from Savannah when I was in NYC but neither of these girls were from Atlanta.

Could this all be going back to what Aquarius said about the large amounts of yankee transplants that changed the culture of the city?

Even so, when I lived in NYC I actually had a pretty good experience with most northern girls and found that they were straightforward but actually had some depth to their personality.

Post: #41

Its not Yankee transplants, its girls who relocate here from smaller places in the South. The ones who do are more adventurous, successful, hypergamous, etc. The same phenomenon happens in NYC - those women can be total bitches and very masculine in their personalities, its not just a temporary shield. The fact that both are DTF means people look past it. The girls in the suburbs are more like what you are looking for.

Probably the biggest criticism I have of Atlanta that is fair (a lot of what I have seen on this thread is excuses) is that its basically a giant suburb. There are few places of density. So whilethe metro area has 6 million people, and there is a variety of people and things here that come with that critical mass, its all spread out. Depending on where you are at you may encounter none of that.

Post: #42

Would you say there's a lot of activity around Christmas Hypno? I'm thinking of staying in Atlanta for around 2 days that week (middle of the week just because of my route) as part of a road trip and I can't really think of any good spot to stay other than Midtown.

Post: #43

It can be hit or miss because a lot of young professionals go back home to visit family. Also, the colleges are out.

Try places that cater to the 30s crowd, like lounges in midtown, Virginia Highlands, and Sandy Springs.

Post: #44

(10-17-2018 12:24 AM)a beer is enough Wrote:  While I will get to the international talent part later on, there is something I want to bring up.

One of the things I have loved about southern girls which makes them some of my favorite women in the country are not only their looks but also their personality. A lot of them have that bold but also friendly lively personality that makes them so fun to game. I notice this a lot with girls from states like Tennessee, South Carolina, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi. Now I notice Hypno said the south is different based on states and all that which is why I wanted to bring it up on this thread.

GA girls do not really seem to have that kind of a personality at all, their personality from my experience of not only gaming in Atlanta but running into girls from the city elsewhere is a lot more try, cold, uncaring and it just seems like they've had the life sucked out of them. I think it might have to do with the flashy culture of the city but there is definitely a huge difference between them and other southern girls.

One forum member who PM'd me said how he knows so many sorority girl types that support Hillary and how it is exclusively a GA thing. I've met some exceptions, knew one cool blonde HB8 from Statesboro and ended up being FWB with a tanned brunette HB8 from Savannah when I was in NYC but neither of these girls were from Atlanta.

Could this all be going back to what Aquarius said about the large amounts of yankee transplants that changed the culture of the city?

Even so, when I lived in NYC I actually had a pretty good experience with most northern girls and found that they were straightforward but actually had some depth to their personality.

To add to this, southern girls are my favorite type of American girls too, and they do have more pleasant personalities and better sounding accents than girls from the rest of America. Most are also pretty fun to be around. And not all southern sorority girls are sluts: Some are surprisingly religious even though they might dress/look the same as their party girl counterparts.

Alabama white girls have been my favorite type of American girls so far, they're really sweet and pleasant, although frequently slightly chubby. For some reason I mesh well with girls from that state. Girls from the small towns of Georgia don't have the woes that Atlanta is plagued with, and are pretty sweet and fun too. I haven't met many girls from other southern states. While EE girls are hotter, southern girls are easier to talk to as EE girls can often be ice queens. Its actually not exactly uncommon to hear Russian being spoken in the hotter areas of Atlanta, but if I really wanted an EE girl, I wouldn't hunt for them exclusively in Atlanta anyways and head over to the source.

I've heard about the Brazilian community in Marietta but haven't checked that area out. Colombians and Venezuelans are surprisingly common in Atlanta, but it seems its more men than women with them.

Post: #45

For all of Dallas's faults...never put ATL and Dallas in the same category lol

Post: #46

ZFG. I'll mess with Texas.

Post: #47

(10-17-2018 01:16 PM)Aquarius Wrote:  

(10-17-2018 12:24 AM)a beer is enough Wrote:  While I will get to the international talent part later on, there is something I want to bring up.

One of the things I have loved about southern girls which makes them some of my favorite women in the country are not only their looks but also their personality. A lot of them have that bold but also friendly lively personality that makes them so fun to game. I notice this a lot with girls from states like Tennessee, South Carolina, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi. Now I notice Hypno said the south is different based on states and all that which is why I wanted to bring it up on this thread.

GA girls do not really seem to have that kind of a personality at all, their personality from my experience of not only gaming in Atlanta but running into girls from the city elsewhere is a lot more try, cold, uncaring and it just seems like they've had the life sucked out of them. I think it might have to do with the flashy culture of the city but there is definitely a huge difference between them and other southern girls.

One forum member who PM'd me said how he knows so many sorority girl types that support Hillary and how it is exclusively a GA thing. I've met some exceptions, knew one cool blonde HB8 from Statesboro and ended up being FWB with a tanned brunette HB8 from Savannah when I was in NYC but neither of these girls were from Atlanta.

Could this all be going back to what Aquarius said about the large amounts of yankee transplants that changed the culture of the city?

Even so, when I lived in NYC I actually had a pretty good experience with most northern girls and found that they were straightforward but actually had some depth to their personality.

To add to this, southern girls are my favorite type of American girls too, and they do have more pleasant personalities and better sounding accents than girls from the rest of America. Most are also pretty fun to be around. And not all southern sorority girls are sluts: Some are surprisingly religious even though they might dress/look the same as their party girl counterparts.

Alabama white girls have been my favorite type of American girls so far, they're really sweet and pleasant, although frequently slightly chubby. For some reason I mesh well with girls from that state. Girls from the small towns of Georgia don't have the woes that Atlanta is plagued with, and are pretty sweet and fun too. I haven't met many girls from other southern states. While EE girls are hotter, southern girls are easier to talk to as EE girls can often be ice queens. Its actually not exactly uncommon to hear Russian being spoken in the hotter areas of Atlanta, but if I really wanted an EE girl, I wouldn't hunt for them exclusively in Atlanta anyways and head over to the source.

I've heard about the Brazilian community in Marietta but haven't checked that area out. Colombians and Venezuelans are surprisingly common in Atlanta, but it seems its more men than women with them.

I have had the best experiences with women from Tennessee and especially South Carolina. Not sure what it is about the women of South Carolina but they have the good looks as well as the approachable friendly demeanor that makes them serious wife material. I'd love to move to Charleston one day when I have a lot of money, friendly approachable women everyone, hoping that doesn't get changed.

I'd say EE girls you describe are a lot like southern girls I've met in Atlanta, a lot.

The issue with the international community in Atlanta is that there is not as much talent there and that talent does not seem to gather around at the fun bars that a lot of hot girls usually go to.

If I am in the Meatpacking District in NYC, I can expect to game hot girls from across the globe in one night while being in Buckhead or even VA Highlands means I am usually gaming the ex-sorority bimbo types.

Kind of frustrating because after a certain point, you wonder why you're talking to a girl in her late twenties who still cares about what frat you were in during your college years.

Post: #48

lol accidentally posted in the wrong thread

Post: #49

(10-17-2018 10:54 PM)a beer is enough Wrote:  

(10-17-2018 01:16 PM)Aquarius Wrote:  

(10-17-2018 12:24 AM)a beer is enough Wrote:  While I will get to the international talent part later on, there is something I want to bring up.

One of the things I have loved about southern girls which makes them some of my favorite women in the country are not only their looks but also their personality. A lot of them have that bold but also friendly lively personality that makes them so fun to game. I notice this a lot with girls from states like Tennessee, South Carolina, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi. Now I notice Hypno said the south is different based on states and all that which is why I wanted to bring it up on this thread.

GA girls do not really seem to have that kind of a personality at all, their personality from my experience of not only gaming in Atlanta but running into girls from the city elsewhere is a lot more try, cold, uncaring and it just seems like they've had the life sucked out of them. I think it might have to do with the flashy culture of the city but there is definitely a huge difference between them and other southern girls.

One forum member who PM'd me said how he knows so many sorority girl types that support Hillary and how it is exclusively a GA thing. I've met some exceptions, knew one cool blonde HB8 from Statesboro and ended up being FWB with a tanned brunette HB8 from Savannah when I was in NYC but neither of these girls were from Atlanta.

Could this all be going back to what Aquarius said about the large amounts of yankee transplants that changed the culture of the city?

Even so, when I lived in NYC I actually had a pretty good experience with most northern girls and found that they were straightforward but actually had some depth to their personality.

To add to this, southern girls are my favorite type of American girls too, and they do have more pleasant personalities and better sounding accents than girls from the rest of America. Most are also pretty fun to be around. And not all southern sorority girls are sluts: Some are surprisingly religious even though they might dress/look the same as their party girl counterparts.

Alabama white girls have been my favorite type of American girls so far, they're really sweet and pleasant, although frequently slightly chubby. For some reason I mesh well with girls from that state. Girls from the small towns of Georgia don't have the woes that Atlanta is plagued with, and are pretty sweet and fun too. I haven't met many girls from other southern states. While EE girls are hotter, southern girls are easier to talk to as EE girls can often be ice queens. Its actually not exactly uncommon to hear Russian being spoken in the hotter areas of Atlanta, but if I really wanted an EE girl, I wouldn't hunt for them exclusively in Atlanta anyways and head over to the source.

I've heard about the Brazilian community in Marietta but haven't checked that area out. Colombians and Venezuelans are surprisingly common in Atlanta, but it seems its more men than women with them.

I have had the best experiences with women from Tennessee and especially South Carolina. Not sure what it is about the women of South Carolina but they have the good looks as well as the approachable friendly demeanor that makes them serious wife material. I'd love to move to Charleston one day when I have a lot of money, friendly approachable women everyone, hoping that doesn't get changed.

I'd say EE girls you describe are a lot like southern girls I've met in Atlanta, a lot.

The issue with the international community in Atlanta is that there is not as much talent there and that talent does not seem to gather around at the fun bars that a lot of hot girls usually go to.

If I am in the Meatpacking District in NYC, I can expect to game hot girls from across the globe in one night while being in Buckhead or even VA Highlands means I am usually gaming the ex-sorority bimbo types.

Kind of frustrating because after a certain point, you wonder why you're talking to a girl in her late twenties who still cares about what frat you were in during your college years.

If you want international girls, then don't look for them in Buckhead or Virginia-Highlands.

East Asian girls, especially Korean, are centered around Duluth, with large spillover to Suwanee and Johns Creek. The young ones are squarely centered on Duluth.

Indians are mostly centered around Johns Creek, Alpharetta, with some families in Smyrna. I'm not Indian and don't game Indians, so i don't really know where the young ones hang out.

There's a massive Brazilian community in Marietta, and other non-Mexican South Americans are clustered in that area too. There's clubs that cater towards them in the area.

I always hear a couple of girls speaking Russian, or some other EE language, on the Beltline, but they aren't common enough to exclusively game.

Tongue and Groove in Lindbergh has the huge international scene you might be looking for. A ton of hot Korean girls, Latina or mixed-race racially ambiguous girls, along with white American girls. They are maybe 1/3 of each category on a typical night out there, and the ex-sorority type seldom go there. Music is mostly rap and Top40. Havana Club down the road should have a decent selection of Latina chicks too.

Post: #50

(10-17-2018 12:24 AM)a beer is enough Wrote:  While I will get to the international talent part later on, there is something I want to bring up.

One of the things I have loved about southern girls which makes them some of my favorite women in the country are not only their looks but also their personality. A lot of them have that bold but also friendly lively personality that makes them so fun to game. I notice this a lot with girls from states like Tennessee, South Carolina, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi. Now I notice Hypno said the south is different based on states and all that which is why I wanted to bring it up on this thread.

GA girls do not really seem to have that kind of a personality at all, their personality from my experience of not only gaming in Atlanta but running into girls from the city elsewhere is a lot more try, cold, uncaring and it just seems like they've had the life sucked out of them. I think it might have to do with the flashy culture of the city but there is definitely a huge difference between them and other southern girls.

One forum member who PM'd me said how he knows so many sorority girl types that support Hillary and how it is exclusively a GA thing. I've met some exceptions, knew one cool blonde HB8 from Statesboro and ended up being FWB with a tanned brunette HB8 from Savannah when I was in NYC but neither of these girls were from Atlanta.

Could this all be going back to what Aquarius said about the large amounts of yankee transplants that changed the culture of the city?

Even so, when I lived in NYC I actually had a pretty good experience with most northern girls and found that they were straightforward but actually had some depth to their personality.

Atlanta is unlike the south in many ways, and I think that changes the culture and people of the city. For example, the south is generally not urban. Unlike the north, people have always avoided big cities in the south. Which is why most people in Atlanta live in the suburbs (this is changing). Southern girls are uncomfortable in the big city of Atlanta and it makes them put up a bit of a guard. Atlanta IS big. It's nearly 6 million in the metro, which is very respectable.

Another thing is that Atlanta is enough in the celebrity circuit / media / fashion / music / movie industry that it has a bit of the LA effect. In other words, people want to "be somebody". It's becoming a bit of an image town where it's not what you know but who you know, your car, your clothes, etc, etc.. I still think a lot of the small town charm lives on in Atlanta, whether it's an event at the brewery or a local concert, a festival, whatever. But yeah, between all the new yorkers moving down, the job transplants, the immigrants, the movie studios, etc, it's not just a bunch of southerners serving sweet tea. It's a bit of a rat race like LA, NYC, or any other big metro. At the same time, there are still an enormous number of places to relax and people who refuse to give into the big city madness.

As an example, a big group of my girlfriend's friends went camping, skinny dipping in the lake, then the next weekend tubing on the dirty river that runs through Atlanta. Most of these girls were cute, two of them Latina, two asian, two white. There were some african guys, some middle eastern guys, a black guy from the US, and me (white).

And then the next weekend we went to a burning man type event in Atlanta for the weekend. Camping, with 100s of hippy girls running around. Quite a few topless and DTF. Then there is Imagine festival, which is a huge EDM festival that draws women from the entire state.

So Atlanta is quite a strange mix of many things. It's definitely the most similar to Dallas or Houston in feeling.

Again, though, it's not an "easy" town. I'd say the girls here are about average to get laid, with plenty of targets. Again, I wouldn't move here just for the girls, but there are far worse places.