Post: #1

Hey all, curious if anyone has read the Unchained Man by Caleb Jones. I am almost through the book and was looking for thoughts of other posters here.

By and large, his viewpoints are very alpha in how he views the world. He sees men having a mission as the most important thing and does not ever commit fully to a woman. The best he will give them is an open long term relationship.

He also advocates for other things such as a prenup, avoiding legal marriage in hell-holes (England, Australia, California) where a prenup is useless, and expecting women to do 90% of the child-rearing responsibilities like diapers, cooking, driving to sports games, etc.

One thing, however, that I actually sort of agree with him on that is against many of the forum posts I have read is that he also allows the woman to see other people. He basically equates it to the following: What would you rather deal with - jealousy or a lifetime of sex with only one person? He does not think that a relationship where only one person is around to fool around with other people is sustainable. Of course, many will say just cheat on the side, but I find that being open and honest with people makes me internally feel more at peace.

Looking for thoughts from anyone else who has read it or has an opinion on the subject.

Post: #2

(07-24-2018 03:55 PM)TheBadGuy Wrote:  One thing, however, that I actually sort of agree with him on that is against many of the forum posts I have read is that he also allows the woman to see other people. He basically equates it to the following: What would you rather deal with - jealousy or a lifetime of sex with only one person? He does not think that a relationship where only one person is around to fool around with other people is sustainable. Of course, many will say just cheat on the side, but I find that being open and honest with people makes me internally feel more at peace.
Looking for thoughts from anyone else who has read it or has an opinion on the subject.

This idea is popular at the moment. I have never seen it actually work. You know how people on the forum feel about cucks? It takes some time, but women eventually have very similar feelings about a cuck husband.

Wait... I do know a couple that is currently making this work. The woman is beastly fat... BEASTLY! The guy is handsome and in great shape if a little bit short. Being fat and ugly... this woman simply cannot pull men higher quality than her husband. Meanwhile the husband has access to 4's and 5's every once in a while. Actually... the last time I talked to her the fat ugly wife (who is my friend) had completely given up going for strange dick and just lets her husband do whatever. I feel like he is only there for the kids.

So, special circumstances not withstanding... I think this kind of relationship is for dumbfucks. Just my opinion though.

Post: #3

(07-24-2018 03:55 PM)TheBadGuy Wrote:  Hey all, curious if anyone has read the Unchained Man by Caleb Jones. I am almost through the book and was looking for thoughts of other posters here.

By and large, his viewpoints are very alpha in how he views the world. He sees men having a mission as the most important thing and does not ever commit fully to a woman. The best he will give them is an open long term relationship.

He also advocates for other things such as a prenup, avoiding legal marriage in hell-holes (England, Australia, California) where a prenup is useless, and expecting women to do 90% of the child-rearing responsibilities like diapers, cooking, driving to sports games, etc.

One thing, however, that I actually sort of agree with him on that is against many of the forum posts I have read is that he also allows the woman to see other people. He basically equates it to the following: What would you rather deal with - jealousy or a lifetime of sex with only one person? He does not think that a relationship where only one person is around to fool around with other people is sustainable. Of course, many will say just cheat on the side, but I find that being open and honest with people makes me internally feel more at peace.

Looking for thoughts from anyone else who has read it or has an opinion on the subject.

I follow his blog and like his stuff. The only thing that I kind of dislike is that since he has built up a large roster of ex fuck buddies he is no longer actively sarging for new women in the vanilla dating world. When he needs a replacement woman he opens old fuckbuddies, finds a sugar baby, and sometimes rarely does salt daddy game (15%).

Since I don't go the sugar daddy route, and deleted my old fuck buddy's info his new stuff isn't useful for getting women. Where Caleb shines is bitch management, and I believe the info he puts out is useful in that regard.

Post: #4

I like Caleb's / BD's stuff and have been reading and following for years, even as a Titanium client in his SMIC program.

I was following his OLTR model and have had mixed results - overall it worked pretty well (the women chose to stay faithful to me), although I think it was the death of a relationship with a seriously high quality traditional girl I was with. See my previous threads on this.

Going forward, I'm not going to bother with it.

Would like to hear others results.

Post: #5

Yes, I've read it a half dozen times to internalize what he teaches when I was learning the ropes. BD's view of the world is very similar to my own, so it was refreshing to read something like that.

I'm currently running a harem right now, with the equivalent of two MLTRs, one FB and two prospects always. The big difference between what BD teaches and what I do is I never go back for scraps. Once a girl is out, she's out for good.

Personally, I have no desire for a serious OLTR level relationship so I don't give a shit what my girls do when they aren't with me. I used to get jealous; but now I realize that it's unwarranted. I will never be able to be monogamous (at least sexually). The last time I tried I cheated like a madman, and the drama that ensued afterwards was not worth it.

The one thing I don't agree with in his book is his view on Russian women, whom I personally love and haven't been gold digged by, yet.

Post: #6

Thank you all for your insight. I would love to hear more experiences from other men also. Any of you planning on having kids? If so, how do you juggle that aspect?

Post: #7

(07-29-2018 10:39 AM)TheBadGuy Wrote:  Thank you all for your insight. I would love to hear more experiences from other men also. Any of you planning on having kids? If so, how do you juggle that aspect?

And this was exactly my issue. I have no kids but want kids.

Sure, it's 'possible' to have children in these types of OLTR relationships, and I basically had this arrangement going for 2 years prior, but it still is a constant source of stress for the traditional 'good values / amazing mother' woman we are all dream about starting a family with. Over time, it did wear her (and me down) down - don't kid yourself, it's a more stressful relationship type requiring you to be on your game 100% of the time, until I essentially drained her of all of her love and we broke up.

Still going through a temporary lull afterwards, but I'm starting to realise these high quality trad females are becoming more and more rare as I've hit the dating scene again...

Keen to hear others views on this.

Post: #8

(07-29-2018 08:28 PM)PixelFree Wrote:  

(07-29-2018 10:39 AM)TheBadGuy Wrote:  Thank you all for your insight. I would love to hear more experiences from other men also. Any of you planning on having kids? If so, how do you juggle that aspect?

And this was exactly my issue. I have no kids but want kids.

Sure, it's 'possible' to have children in these types of OLTR relationships, and I basically had this arrangement going for 2 years prior, but it still is a constant source of stress for the traditional 'good values / amazing mother' woman we are all dream about starting a family with. Over time, it did wear her (and me down) down - don't kid yourself, it's a more stressful relationship type requiring you to be on your game 100% of the time, until I essentially drained her of all of her love and we broke up.

Still going through a temporary lull afterwards, but I'm starting to realise these high quality trad females are becoming more and more rare as I've hit the dating scene again...

Keen to hear others views on this.

There is no safe way to get married and have a traditional family in America, Canada, or Northern Europe. You're basically betting your financial security and ability to stay outside of a steel cage on the flip of a coin. If you include people who stay married but are miserable the odds are much worse than that! Those "high quality trad women" will defect on you as soon as a better deal comes along. This didn't happen in the past because female divorcee's were considered damaged goods; so the best they'd be able to do is get a husband with a much lower SMV. Not to mention that we didn't have "no fault divorce" so the person who broke up the marriage would be financially punished instead of the man. Worst case scenario the man would have to move to another state, or sometimes only another town. Since everything was on paper at the local courthouse and nothing was linked; it would be next to impossible to find him, and cost prohibitive to enforce a judgement against him even if you did.

If you really want a traditional marriage my advice is to build up location independent income, and move to a place where the government is too weak to involve its self in the minutia of family life. Have a family in southern europe, Latin America, some places in Asia, or the FSU. Don't register the marriage in the United States, and don't give your kid American citizenship until he's 18. The downside to this is that you'll have to live abroad for at least as 18 years. Longer if you remained married to the woman.

If you don't want to move a second less risky option is to become a sperm donor for a couple that wants to have an "open donation" in order to conceive. This means that you'll basically be like an uncle to the children they conceive and be involved in their lives. This is still somewhat risky. In the past judges have ruled that donors who act like fathers should be treated like legal fathers with all of the accompanying rights (very few and next to impossible to enforce) and responsibilities (onerous and many). For more on this google 'paternity by estoppel'. Although cases like this are almost exclusively single mothers trying to get child support out of a sperm donor. The particulars vary by state; so obviously talk to a excellent local family law attorney before you decide to do anything.

If you want something resembling marriage in the United States move to a state that doesn't recognize common law marriage. Then offer to give your woman the ring, the dress, the party, and live in the same house. Just make sure that you settle down with a woman that doesn't want to have children, and take proactive steps to ensure that you can't knock her up (IUD, get snipped, have her get her tubes tied, etc); AND make it clear that you'll never sign a marriage certificate to get legally married.

Post: #9

Yes - there is absolutely a risk here.

The problem is, if you want kids AND want to live in a first world country with a high quality of life, all you can do is your best to reduce this risk. Choose your wife as best you can (i.e. simple 'country' near-virgin over tattooed city girl on meds from a broken home), be wise with your money and have some realistic expectations that there is a reasonable chance of breaking up (and what would happen in that scenario).

In the past, I've lost a seriously high quality girl because of my hesitation/fear about getting 'trapped' in a situation like this. These quality girls don't exactly grow on trees. Yes, I understand there is no guarantees of success here, but at the same time it's silly to never start a family because you're scared of divorce.

Post: #10

(07-31-2018 01:30 PM)mpr Wrote:  Have a family in southern europe, Latin America, some places in Asia, or the FSU. Don't register the marriage in the United States, and don't give your kid American citizenship until he's 18.

You don't have to register the marriage IN the US, but you can do that at the US consulate/embassy in the foreign country. If you're worried about divorce and child support, you should check the Hague Convention on that and see if that country isn't a participant. If not, you're safe. But it can always change later as a lot can happen in 18 years.

And why don't you want to give your kid US citizenship as soon as they're born? Do you really want your kids having to get a visa to visit their grandparents in the US while they're young?

Post: #11

BD has an interesting model, but he hasn't tested it having kids starting from his model. He had kids already and isn't planning to ever have any more, so anything he says is an untested hypothesis that you could try out. It's a pretty high stakes theory although.

The only guy that I've seen done it stumbled unto that same model. He got an athletic south east asian girl pregnant, that girl for some reason is okay with him going off and having sex with other girls. Maybe the girl is smart and recognizes his wealth, maybe she is a bit bisexual? The kid is really young, so we will see how it works out long term.

BD has lived another model although. You get married, you have kids. And if you really want to fuck other women, you divorce that woman. What women accepts you fucking other women? One that your not in a relationship with any more. It's a dice roll if the woman wants you to be involved with the kids, if it will be amicable or otherwise, but it is a model.

Another model (which I really hate, because I think all kids should have 2 parents) is do the single dad route and get a surrogate.

My guess with the BD model is you have to go through a lot of girls, say upfront what you want to do with kids and fucking other women, and find that rare unicorn that is okay with it for some reason. It's a low yield sales process for sure.

I don't want kids right now and don't have any, so I'm just brainstorming right now with zero personal experience. Take it all of this with a big grain of salt.

Post: #12

(07-27-2018 07:12 AM)Investment Bro Wrote:  The big difference between what BD teaches and what I do is I never go back for scraps. Once a girl is out, she's out for good.

I'm the same way and erase them but as I mature, I question why? Why are they out for good? Unless they're a severe liability of some sort, what difference does it make?

Just need to manage expectations better...

Post: #13

(08-01-2018 04:35 PM)JackinMelbourne Wrote:  

(07-27-2018 07:12 AM)Investment Bro Wrote:  The big difference between what BD teaches and what I do is I never go back for scraps. Once a girl is out, she's out for good.

I'm the same way and erase them but as I mature, I question why? Why are they out for good? Unless they're a severe liability of some sort, what difference does it make?

Just need to manage expectations better...

It depends on you. Personally, I always crave new experiences and I enjoy getting to know new people. If someone falls off the wagon for me, it means they don't value me enough, and it's not worth keeping people like that in my life.

In my world, there's no fence to sit on. It's ride or die.

Post: #14

(08-01-2018 03:55 AM)malc Wrote:  BD has an interesting model, but he hasn't tested it having kids starting from his model. He had kids already and isn't planning to ever have any more, so anything he says is an untested hypothesis that you could try out. It's a pretty high stakes theory although.

Yeah a lot of what BD has said about family law isn't correct in my jurisdiction. Of course family law varies wildly state by state so talk to a lawyer before you do anything.

(08-01-2018 01:53 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  You don't have to register the marriage IN the US, but you can do that at the US consulate/embassy in the foreign country. If you're worried about divorce and child support, you should check the Hague Convention on that and see if that country isn't a participant. If not, you're safe. But it can always change later as a lot can happen in 18 years.

Safe as long as you never again set foot in your home country. That's a pretty high price to pay. As you said the Hague convention just keeps getting longer. Have you ever seen the number of countries on that list shrink?

(08-01-2018 01:53 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  And why don't you want to give your kid US citizenship as soon as they're born? Do you really want your kids having to get a visa to visit their grandparents in the US while they're young?

Because I'd want everything to be off the books in the USA. That way I'd be able to walk with no repercussions instead of being enslaved to the woman. I could care less about my kid having to get a visa, and the kid wouldn't even know what a visa is. All of this is theoretical of course. I don't want any more kids.