Post: #26

(06-04-2018 09:11 AM)YoungBlade Wrote:  ^^^
Did you offer to wear heels during sex?

Probably got on some stilts during the date.

Hank hiding his 5'5" body while on a date:

Post: #27

(06-04-2018 09:14 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  It doesn't make sense and personally, it's ridiculous for men to say "give up" in general, especially with girls. You don't give up, you change strategy and adapt. That's what makes you a man.

I love this line. Men don't give up. Those incels in MGTOW may give up, but true warriors keep fighting. If you get knocked down 50 times, then you get up 51 times.

We've all had experiences like you. Women are so fickle, it's their nature. Fleeting emotions that come and go like the wind.

And until recently, I was always a 'kiss on the first date/meet' type of guy. I figured, hey, I may as well get something out of this. But trust me when I say I've had my fair share of girls not contacting me after a great time and great kiss at the end. So really it doesn't mean a 2nd meet is guaranteed.

Plus if you think about it, a kiss at the end kind of comes off as needy. It's much more in line of a IDGAF attitude to not kiss her, and make her hamster spin. The ball is in your court then because you're in controlling the frame. If she wasn't into you to begin with, then who cares? And if she was in to you, she'll be even more into you by wondering if you like her. The risk/reward is just that much higher with no kiss.

Learn from this and keep the train moving.

Post: #28

I can tell by your writing you wear your heart on your sleeve.

Combined with the fact that she wrote you a wall of text to reject you (when most girls would just ghost you) shows that she respects you as a man. That's actually a great sign, because it means you're being honest and "real" with chicks. If you were just some loser, she'd of not felt bad about ghosting you.

The downside to this is that girls are seeing you as a potential boyfriend, not a fuck buddy. What do you want? If you want to fuck, you need to switch it up and not "try to make the best impression you can."

If you're trying to find an LTR, then you're on the right track.

The only big mistake you made was by replying "'k" to her rejection. She tried to be real with you (extremely rare) and you made her feel stupid for it. Next time, she's just going to ghost the guy if she doesn't like him.

Post: #29

(06-03-2018 08:17 PM)Mess O. Wrote:  [...] I tried to make the best impression I could, within the scope of the couple of hours it went on for, all the while keeping certain things in mind . . . such as not really giving a fuck at all as to how it turns out [...]

This position are mutually exclusive. I have some observations, like other gents who posted, too. Let me ask you first. How'd you meet her, her age, how easy was it to setup a date, etc. Just some factual data info, please.

Post: #30

I don't mean to sound like a douche, but...OP, if you come off this pretentious wannabe shakespeare writing style, and it's concomitant state of mind you will be well on your way to getting laid.

Post: #31

My intuition says she felt fine on the date with you.

But there's something about your SMV as a man that's holding you back. When she really has time to think about it later, she rejects you for some fundamental reason.

Like: I can't present this guy to all my friends because...

The premise of your OP is about only tactics and looking for "that one weird trick that makes girls want to".

Your energies could alternatively be spent in raising your value and self-improvement. Assess more broadly if most girls would want you in their life, and why or why not.

Post: #32

(06-03-2018 08:34 PM)robreke Wrote:  Sounds like you did everything right BUT...the end. I'll offer my two cents on what has worked for me well in these same kind of situations.

I think you "blew her out" with the heavy make out at the end. You blew out all the sexual tension. She sounds like she might have been a very shy girl and this heavy make out you had made her seem (in her convoluted way of thinking) "too easy" or even slutty even though you didn't bang.

Don't beat yourself up too much as I know I've made this same mistake with girls I liked and I know friends who have also. Intuitively, it doesn't make sense. I mean, she was kissing you back and pushing into you, etc. She likes me, therefore, she wants to definitely see me again. Sometimes, this is true. Other times, after she's had a chance to think about it and "regret" making out with you, it is not.

Girls are retards in this sense but it's just their hamster at work here.

It's best to keep the tension and mystery without going full make out on them.

I think this would have worked better and I'll bet you would have got another kind of text altogether and/or a second date had you done this:

End the date with a tender, relatively brief "sweet" kiss. I don't recommend tongue. Just a soft touching of the lips and perhaps lightly graze her hand with yours. Look her in the eye and say "have a good one/have a good night" ( just a brief goodbye)

Usually when my dates go like you describe the way yours did and I end it this way, I'll get a text that night or the next day from the girl saying she had a good time AND quite often, get the second date and beyond.

When you make out like you did, in her mind, you're no longer a "mystery" and all the tension has been released. Try this next time ( I know it's hard because you want to make out with such an attractive girl) but patience and restraint usually work best. The make out and sex happens on the second or, sometimes, third date (when you get them to your place)

Obviously, everything I recommend here is if you don't get the girl home on the first date. I usually suggest on first dates that we go back to my place to have " a little wine my friends brought over. then I'll have to kick you out" but often they'll decline this and say "maybe next time"

In such situations where you're not bringing them home on the first date, you want to keep the sexual tension going by not making out with them, yet wanting more.

This was excellent advice. Basically the game principles of gradual and steady escalation, and maybe some push-pull would have landed a bang here eventually. I`ve had very similar experiences as the OP before and learned to wait with the serious escalation until you`re at a place where sex can actually happen. (apartment etc.)

Post: #33

(06-04-2018 01:23 PM)Tigre Wrote:  My intuition says she felt fine on the date with you.

But there's something about your SMV as a man that's holding you back. When she really has time to think about it later, she rejects you for some fundamental reason.

Like: I can't present this guy to all my friends because...

The premise of your OP is about only tactics and looking for "that one weird trick that makes girls want to".

Your energies could alternatively be spent in raising your value and self-improvement. Assess more broadly if most girls would want you in their life, and why or why not.

This. I think it was more along the lines of "This guy that was clearly unsuitable almost got me to fuck him immediately. I can't be doing stuff like that."

Post: #34

(06-04-2018 11:17 AM)Redcloud Wrote:  I can tell by your writing you wear your heart on your sleeve.

Combined with the fact that she wrote you a wall of text to reject you (when most girls would just ghost you) shows that she respects you as a man. That's actually a great sign, because it means you're being honest and "real" with chicks. If you were just some loser, she'd of not felt bad about ghosting you.

The downside to this is that girls are seeing you as a potential boyfriend, not a fuck buddy. What do you want? If you want to fuck, you need to switch it up and not "try to make the best impression you can."

If you're trying to find an LTR, then you're on the right track.

The only big mistake you made was by replying "'k" to her rejection. She tried to be real with you (extremely rare) and you made her feel stupid for it. Next time, she's just going to ghost the guy if she doesn't like him.

I don't even think she deserves the "k". She wrote the wall of text to make herself feel better, not him. It's not just that it doesn't deserve a response, it's that it has no point. If she doesn't want further interaction with you, just give her what she wants.

Post: #35

(06-04-2018 05:15 AM)Noir Wrote:  You live and you learn.

Robreke hit the nail on the head (+1 from me).

Seeing as we are doing a post-mortem on this interaction...

Error 1 - There was very little physical escalation throughout the bulk of the event. Her eye contact is telling. You need to warm her up; you would not red-line a car in winter immediately upon starting. It's the same with a woman and getting her ready. The 'hail-mary end-of-date' kiss is very high school and it transports their minds to that.

Error 2 - The over-the-top make out. This is what Robreke covered. It's excessive and when she looks back on it, she will rationalize it according to her experience levels, internal wiring and a whole bunch of things you don't have control over. You put the ball in her court and the odds are not good. You gotta move her around, pause the kiss, build some trust, do some teasing, vary her emotions (spike) and try and take her elsewhere. The energy stagnates and all she will remember is that you kissed for a long time and that's uncharacteristic; more-so in a public area with a girl who doesn't seem to be too experienced with such PDA.

Error 3 - No rhythm in your game, it seems stop start. The jump from no touching to full-on make out measures high on the ASD Richter scale and off-putting to the girl, after the fact. It has to be a steady, slow escalation over the course of your interaction. Rolling hills and whatnot (if you were to graph it).

Error 4 - Your text response. 'k' - childish, reactive response.

No response would have been better if you wanted to be bitter. I don't get guys who respond this way. If you're interested and enjoy her company, this response is weak and completely within her frame. You won't even have a chance of salvaging anything (assuming you want to). Rather just ignore and move on then; no need to have the 'final say'.

At times, you will need to 'supplicate' and be vulnerable. Women need to be comforted in such moments of confusion, tension and rationalization. You're the leader and gotta direct her emotional energy positively.

Taking responsibility and saying "look, I couldn't control myself and it's out of character but can you blame me? I would like to see you again but if you're not ready, that's fine."

Let the chips fall where they may.

In the same situation, how would you have responded to that text? I was trying to convey an indifferent attitude, given how so many of the 'past-date' stories I've been hearing from women describe these dudes pulling ultra-needy, agitating behavior in response to the rejection, so I at least didn't want to be grouped in that category.

Post: #36

(06-04-2018 08:59 AM)HankMoody Wrote:  The next day she texts me along these lines: "Hank, I love spending time with you. You're so fun and interesting. I went back to your house for sex, but I just can't get past the short thing, I do still want to hang out, though."

Jesus Christ. Same thing happened with my best bud, causing him to end the relationship he'd been in with a girl for 3 months.

Post: #37

(06-04-2018 09:14 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  You took a girl on dinner for first date? Please tell me it's not the case.

I know, I know, we just had a little somethin' to eat at a bistro. I didn't know the area, and just picked a place, and once in there, couldn't get seats at the bar. It's a deviation from my usual template. At least we each paid our own sides of the modest bill.

Post: #38

(06-04-2018 11:37 AM)ksbms Wrote:  This position are mutually exclusive. I have some observations, like other gents who posted, too. Let me ask you first. How'd you meet her, her age, how easy was it to setup a date, etc. Just some factual data info, please.

I met her on OkCupid, she's 34, and I set up the date after a few back-and-forth messages on the site, before getting the digits, where I set it up within a couple of messages.

Post: #39

(06-04-2018 12:47 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  I don't mean to sound like a douche, but...OP, if you come off this pretentious wannabe shakespeare writing style, and it's concomitant state of mind you will be well on your way to getting laid.

Just tryin' to put some Rhyme or Reason into my writing style. Tell the story.

I'd also like to ask the Forum at large if this particular instance is salvageable. Is there any recourse?

Post: #40

(06-04-2018 03:32 PM)Mess O. Wrote:  she's 34,

Ah...so she's in full beta-hunting mode. Women in the 28-35 age bracket can sometimes paradoxically have the strongest LMR, as they need to show they're not sluts and will use their sexuality to extract the most out of a guy, ie, full commitment. There's a good chance if she was 5-10 years younger, you would've sealed the deal that same night.

(06-04-2018 03:37 PM)Mess O. Wrote:  Is there any recourse?

No, there isn't. You should forget about her and move on.

Don't make the mistake of sending a "restart" text or some such BS, it's better to keep your dignity instead.

Post: #41

As others have mentioned, this is normal.

I've had dates that I thought went perfectly well. Strong chemistry, had her laughing, great physical escalation but no bang. A few days go by and I can't get a text back.

There is no rhyme or reason to game, that's why it's game.

It's also normal to feel the way you do. So take a break. Go work out and play some guitar or whatever you like to do. You'll be back, trust me. Better, smarter, wiser.

If she sent me the text she sent you, my response would be similar. "Haha ok." Girls are children. It's not bitter, it's just dealing with the most fickle creatures on earth. She's not feeling you or having second doubts? Fine, let her feel that way.

With some girls, getting laid and gaming successfully feels like the easiest thing on earth. There's nothing like having a hot streak. With other girls, it feels like this shit is pointless and gets you nowhere, and you wind up in a terrible dry spell. This is all normal. Just be true to yourself, always put yourself first, and stay persistent and consistent in your efforts. Have faith in the system.

Post: #42

I think that overthinking it like "how to act most alpha to get this girl" is also bad way. Of course, there is some ideal algorhytm how to deal with women on dates and so on, but once you really think about it, you put struggle into that..... and women can feel it.
I noticed that recently. Past 2 months I have been meeting women that I wasn´t very interested in and only wanted to bang them. I put minimum struggle into that, often didn´t contact them for long period (because I didn´t remember about them between other girls) and generally I didn´t care if it works out, because next day I was seeing another. I didn´t think like "I want to bang her, so what would the most alpha male ever say". And it amazingly worked.
Then I found a girl about which I thought, that she is much better than rest and she could be something more serious to me. I am sure, that I said right things during date and I am sure she was entertained during date... But when I look back, I was talking a lot and paid attention to what I say. In the end, I totally killed that with tongue kissing at the end (I was used for that from "only-bang dates"). I know it´s difficult to say "act like you don´t care", when you actually do care, but talking less and leaving her with small kiss, could actually result in seeing her again. They must hope you want them, once they know it, it´s game over.

Post: #43

(06-03-2018 08:34 PM)robreke Wrote:  Sounds like you did everything right BUT...the end. I'll offer my two cents on what has worked for me well in these same kind of situations.

I think you "blew her out" with the heavy make out at the end. You blew out all the sexual tension. She sounds like she might have been a very shy girl and this heavy make out you had made her seem (in her convoluted way of thinking) "too easy" or even slutty even though you didn't bang.

Don't beat yourself up too much as I know I've made this same mistake with girls I liked and I know friends who have also. Intuitively, it doesn't make sense. I mean, she was kissing you back and pushing into you, etc. She likes me, therefore, she wants to definitely see me again. Sometimes, this is true. Other times, after she's had a chance to think about it and "regret" making out with you, it is not.

Girls are retards in this sense but it's just their hamster at work here.

It's best to keep the tension and mystery without going full make out on them.

I think this would have worked better and I'll bet you would have got another kind of text altogether and/or a second date had you done this:

End the date with a tender, relatively brief "sweet" kiss. I don't recommend tongue. Just a soft touching of the lips and perhaps lightly graze her hand with yours. Look her in the eye and say "have a good one/have a good night" ( just a brief goodbye)

Usually when my dates go like you describe the way yours did and I end it this way, I'll get a text that night or the next day from the girl saying she had a good time AND quite often, get the second date and beyond.

When you make out like you did, in her mind, you're no longer a "mystery" and all the tension has been released. Try this next time ( I know it's hard because you want to make out with such an attractive girl) but patience and restraint usually work best. The make out and sex happens on the second or, sometimes, third date (when you get them to your place)

Obviously, everything I recommend here is if you don't get the girl home on the first date. I usually suggest on first dates that we go back to my place to have " a little wine my friends brought over. then I'll have to kick you out" but often they'll decline this and say "maybe next time"

In such situations where you're not bringing them home on the first date, you want to keep the sexual tension going by not making out with them, yet wanting more.

I agree. I'd say in general its better to not make out with a girl you haven't banged yet, unless you are at a location where you are comfortable escalating it to sex. Making out is basically foreplay.

Post: #44

(06-04-2018 03:32 PM)Mess O. Wrote:  

(06-04-2018 11:37 AM)ksbms Wrote:  This position are mutually exclusive. I have some observations, like other gents who posted, too. Let me ask you first. How'd you meet her, her age, how easy was it to setup a date, etc. Just some factual data info, please.

I met her on OkCupid, she's 34, and I set up the date after a few back-and-forth messages on the site, before getting the digits, where I set it up within a couple of messages.

OK, then...

First, you've entered the worst market. Yes, think about sex & dating (i think in those terms more and more) of a market of buyers and sellers, various assets class, transactions, costs, betting, hedging. Heartiste has many posts related to sexual market place.

The online sexual market place is the worst because the entry level is the lowest. Snapping pics to look decent in a shirt, writing up some bio and replying to emails whilst scratching your balls in a bathrobe is on the other side of the spectrum from doing, say, daygame - belligerently making sexual advances on girls in broad daylight with no time to craft a witty response. The entry level for the latter is the highest - that's why I like it because there's virtually no competition and it makes me a "scarce commodity".* In online dating market there are few buyers (aka younger, hotter, tighter girls) and many sellers (all men scratching their balls in a bathrobes whilst skimming through profiles). Hence, the buyers can drive the price high - regardless if their asset class (tits and ass) are genuinely top class (perky tits and firm ass) or perceived top class (saggy tits and fat ass).

34 years old... As long as you're not 40+, you should be chasing 18-25 years old. The older the girl, the more the issues as well as the check box of all the qualities sought in a man growing longer and bigger - not to mention they do know it's their last call to start a family. For a 20 years old you don't need much to satisfy her - some alcohol, fun, and adventurous experience.

The thing women want is adventure and romance. How do I know it? Top 5 genres that earn the most money are:

1) Romance/Erotica - $1.44 billion. ...
2) Crime/Mystery - $728.2 million. ...
3) Religious/Inspirational - $720 million. ...
4) Science Fiction/Fantasy - $590.2 million. ...
5) Horror - $79.6 million.

Guess who reads those books? No, not men. That's what they crave. People want what the can't have it. Girls, and especially middle aged women, have many nice guy aka white knight aka soyboy suitors. Why value something in so much supply? Craft yourself as something rare, however, I'd say it's incredibly difficult to do it online.

I think escalation should be rapid and start early on. A high value man takes what he wants and takes it when he wants. A kiss at the end of a date is not from a player's arsenal, I'm afraid (and I'm sure you know it too) You should play high stakes, not penny stakes game. Starting early on, and, yes, kissing (I completely disagree with the camp that kissing should not be done until the final bounce home - it makes no sense to me) early on, too. Heartiste recommends in his post that "Touching a woman early and often during the attraction phase of a pickup, and escalating the erogenous intent of the touching as familiarity deepens, is one element of what I call the core precepts of game."

The above percept is based on scientific research that, to quote: "All four experiments indicated an interaction between dominance and sex of target. Dominance behavior increased the attractiveness of males, but had no effect on the attractiveness of females." Next time, start escalating fast and be dominant. A man's position is to be active, a woman's, to be reactive.

On a date you blow a bubble (credit: Krauser). After the date, it bursts. You need to reblow it. Depending of the quality of the date and your messaging after, you may or may not reblow it. Each date is a separate episode. I had dates after which a girl would be the first one to enthusiastically text me back about how much she enjoyed the date and looking forward to see me again. You'd think this one was in a bag... A few days pass and I wouldn't hear back ever again. Straight after a date she still rides high on endorphins and the bubble will burst after a good night's sleep. The neurobiological cocktail will return to baseline and she will make a cold assessment what to do next unless you can masterfully inject via text game 'happy feelz'. Thus, two text replies are the key ones: after approach and after the first date. They tell you if it truly is on. Her final reply is, in plain terms - a NO. Move on. Read upon bubble blowing and bursting Krauser's book, if you'd like, it made me understand the dating process much better.

Having said that, you might have ran a pretty good game anyway, give yourself a pat on a back, you've learnt from this experience - nothing wrong with being a decent guy per se, but it isn't what drives women's sexual psyche..

* Strictly speaking, it isn't true, there's only one market, but different "score cards" playing different sub-markets (online, day, night, business owner, promoter, bartender, DJ, rockstar, actor, yada, yada...). But, like with food market, you experience eating duck l'orange at Michelin star restaurant will differ massively from munching a cheeseburger in McDonald's.

Post: #45

Great replies here.
I want to quickly touch on one thing, your reply of "k"

It's never cool to reply like that. All it does is make you seem butt hurt and angry (and thus low-value).
Best reply would simply have been something along the lines of "No worries, I understand. I had fun tonight too. Take care."

As others have said, her mind is racing through a rollercoaster of emotions. You basically freaked her out a little with that intense make-out. You scared the cat. No big deal. Sometimes, scared cats slowly wander back. Sometimes they don't.
For now, keep working on improving your flow. Go on more dates so it eventually becomes natural.

Post: #46

Serious bummer man, I've had these myself just like a bunch of other guys on this thread. I second their advice, especially on making the whole date a congruent sexually-escalating experience instead of trying to light the fuse at the very end. (I'd go so far as to say that if you aren't getting opportunities for light touching, kissing etc. during your date, you've probably set the logistics up wrong.)

Game improvement notwithstanding, these hot-cold maneuvers are part of the game, especially in the online era. Trying to figure them out is the most frustrating thing.

Normally I would recommend trying to get back out there and get a couple of girls interested in you, preferably in real life, get that ego boost going so you keep that confidence.

If you really feel exhausted with the game like your subject line says though, go monk mode for a little while; delete the apps and don't open women, focus on you, your fitness, your job and your friends and your hobbies.

Post: #47

Hate this happened to you, buddy, but damn, I needed to see, and read this thread. I've been going through the same thing lately, it's mind boggling, and defeating. You make out with a chick at the bar, and you barely get a response the next day from her.

I think if you're feeling the way I am, it's best to take a step away from the game. You can't keep beating a rock over, and over again the same way, in the same spot.

Post: #48

Feel for you OP, and we have all had that kind of date.

Its evidence you are nudging at or above your SMV, its very close, so close its knife edge. She was in, and she was out.
Guys that always seal the deal or never get rejected like this are batting 1-2 points below their SMV to create a safety margin out of lack of ambition....

Don't agonise over what you did, or didn't do/ I don't think it was bad you did the make out, or didn't escalate much - I've had success doing that and so will you.

This all comes down to her not buying the goods. Your SMV and attraction just didn't land the fish, but it was very very close!

Hang in there, results will come and you will have the feel good moments that stand in contrast to these lows, but only if you DON'T GIVE UP.

I disagree with the other posters, your reply "'k" was perfect response to a woman that made out with you and then rejected you with a text.

She may yet come back to you (because you showed value by not chasing, trying to persuade or get butt hurt) but under no circumstance do you contact her again.

Onwards and upwards mate. You found her on the internet, you can find another - and she will be into you!

Good luck and we got your back

Post: #49

Amazing thread I've got going here. Definitely getting the help I need. Of course, it's the Forum itself that's brought me this far.

Post: #50

After reading through this thread there is just one thing I want to add.

Don't waste your time with a 34 year old woman, especially if you're inexperienced. Younger women will tolerate much sloppier game, and there's a good chance that she would have fucked you or at least have seen you again if she was under 25 or so. I can tell you're probably looking for something serious, but unless you're 50+, I would suggest you set some standards for yourself. The majority of women over 30 are playing a very particular game, namely, how many resources can I extract out of men while my SMV is plummeting?

They know the only thing they have over men is their sexuality and as a result they want to feel like they're getting something from their pussy. With younger girls, this isn't so much the case. I've made the same mistake you have many times with younger women who still fucked me later on. They're more interested in validation, attention, and fun, and they will likely not care about such petty things.