Post: #26

But isn't the Greek Alphabet frat party orgies part of the experience?

(05-28-2018 01:16 PM)wi30 Wrote:  It'll be interesting to see what happens. There are a lot of expensive and useless degrees out there.

It seems like Liberal Arts, an MBA and some media, music and law degrees are right up the top there.

Quote:1. SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE, HISTORY AND LAW DEGREE
Costs: $402,962

Post: #27

Quote:1. SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE, HISTORY AND LAW DEGREE
Costs: $402,962

How the f*** can a history/law degree cost $402,962???

Post: #28

(05-28-2018 12:57 PM)IveBeenFramed Wrote:  That's over a quarter TRILLION dollars...AT LEAST. Just between that group of borrowers. YIKES!

Quote:While the typical student borrower owes $17,000, the number of those who owe at least $100,000 has risen to around 2.5 million, nearly 6% of the borrowing pool, Education Department data show.

Closer to three-quarters of a trillion. If 2.5 million is 6% then 100% is 41.67 million, times $17,000 is over $708 billion.

Post: #29

When did taking out a big loan for college become a thing in America? During the golden age of 70s-90s did young people have to take out massive loans for a degree?

Post: #30

I went to college 82-86 and came out with $11k in student loans. That's like $30k now, which is about the current average. That was half the cost of 4 years room, board, and tuition for the state school I attended. My parents paid the other half.

In the 60s and,70s, people could still work summers and part time during the school year to pay their way through school and graduate debt free.

Post: #31

(08-27-2018 12:45 AM)Sgt Donger Wrote:  

Quote:1. SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE, HISTORY AND LAW DEGREE
Costs: $402,962

How the f*** can a history/law degree cost $402,962???

According to my research it's 28% Jew. They got a kosher dining room.

https://forward.com/jewish-college-guide...e-college/

There are no Polynesian/Pacific Islanders there, so it must not be any fun.

Also, before you take a test, Sarah Lawrence herself comes around the classroom and blows all the male students.

Aloha!

Post: #32

(08-27-2018 03:12 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  When did taking out a big loan for college become a thing in America? During the golden age of 70s-90s did young people have to take out massive loans for a degree?

In the 60's state schools in California, including Berkeley, which was the top public university in the country, were free.

Mega-cheap in the 70's.

I graduated in '84. Went first year to Junior College, paid for easily, second year to a state University, parents paid for, last two and a half years at a different state university and paid for it with one student loan and working on the weekends.

Total debt: 2500 dollars.

I wouldn't even have had to borrow that, except my dad couldn't be bothered to fill out the financial aid paperwork.

But I will tell you this, my last year, tuition was doubling every semester. It was still dirt cheap, but you could see it wasn't headed somewhere good. I think my last semester, tuition was around 800 dollars, which seemed outrageous at the time.

Also, in the mid 80's I noticed the first strains of the arrested development of people my age, when a store opened up catering to nostalgia items, toys and that, for people my age! 85 was the first year some shameless kid who wasn't homeless came up and tried to panhandle from me.

Both of these things scandalized me to some degree, kids in their twenties already looking back to halcyon days of yesteryear and another one treating a stranger like he treated daddy when he asked for pocket money.

You also began to see the serious division of high school kids into separate cliques at this time, according to my younger sister. When I went to school you hung out with people in your group, but the membranes were permeable, and you could hang out with anybody.

First racist graffitto at my school was 3 years after I graduated.

So, a lot of the trends of today already existing in their embryonic form even back then.

In 1984 it was only the most elite universities that cost around 10,000 a year, places like Stanford for the rich kids.

Nowadays, in state yearly tuition, for a school you can get into with a B- high school average, is more expensive than that.

I know the loans themselves inflate prices but today's universities are in many ways unrecognizable as places of learning, and there is unarguably a high social engineering benefit to burden young people down with debts they can't get out of early in life so they become obedient wage slaves.

I would never encourage a kid to go to college now except for some stem fields.

It is like you are aborting the natural enthusiasm and risk taking of youth, and coercing their souls into timid complacent boxes.

I am extremely ashamed of my country for treating its young like this.

Post: #33

I was sitting in coffee shop the other day and I couldn't help but eavesdrop on this convo between a girl and her mom, tbh they were actually talking quite loud for the subject matter.

So, the girl, who had to be 18ish, was arguing with her mom about how she couldn't fill out her college apps and calling the financial aid office was just too stressful. The mom was getting upset but just kept giving in saying she would call and fill out her apps for her. I was getting annoyed and almost wanted to go over and say if she can't fill out an application and make a phone call how the fuck do you expect her to be on her own and actually take care of her own shit.

Post: #34

My oldest brother started college in the fall of 1971. He was the son of two parents who had never went to college. It was definitely reasonable back then, and I'm not sure he had any debt at the end. He bought a house a year or two after graduation.

We forget that the college boom was all massively subsidized by the federal government. It started with the GI Bill and giving all kinds of money to soldiers (this still exists). Then it was extended with federal loans, starting in the mid 1960's. Once the subsidies came in, they realized they could raise their prices and not lose customers. Then they had more money, so they started spending it on more bureaucrats, more overhead, and more things they didn't need.

Of course, many jobs didn't "require" a college degree. This includes many jobs that "require" a college degree now. The only reason they "require" one is because so many people have one. Employers didn't "require" them for jobs in the 1930's and 1940's because hardly anybody had a college degree. This included jobs in management, journalism, and others. Some of these people did great work as well. Lamar Muse, the founding CEO of Southwest Airlines, didn't have a college degree, for example.

The rise in college degrees has also lead in many businesses to the rise of what has been called the New Class. Basically these are people like human resources, middle managers, and others. They have degrees, so they are "too good" for menial work and "must have" office jobs so they are not "underemployed." Basically these people send most of their workday pushing papers and going to meetings. They are usually a drain on productivity. I work in health care, which has a lot of them and is why health care is so ridiculously expensive.

Post: #35

So this guy borrowed approximately $1M 15 years ago with that amount of money back then you could buy an entire building rent the flats and never have to work a day in your life again

Post: #36

So the US's 80s are basically the same as France 2018.

Over here the French are always proud of their educational system "yeah we pay taxes but but but we get free healthcare and free education". Except that in the 2010s private and business school spring up faster than thirsty dudes at a mass Tinder date event. And the quality of the public education institutes like the prestigious Sorbonne goes way down the drain.

I'm working in a big market research firm and I think I'm the only one who didn't go to a business school. Some of us even went to SciencesPo, the equivalent of Harvard in France. What the fuck are you doing as a research exec if you went to fucking Harvard? Seems like degrees count for less and less everyday.

Europe only has to look to USA to see the impending doom of its educational system. Compound that with a much weaker economy and unchecked immigration I can only imagine...

Post: #37

at 45K student loans in Canada with a degree in biology and almost finishing a Business degree was well. 18 year old me wanted to be a doctor. Didn't have the marks 80% average.

Post: #38

I did my STEM undergrad in London, UK and it was free. In fact I received financial aid because I came from a low income family. My parents covered all of my living costs. I wrote my dad a cheque refunding what he had given me once I earned enough to pay him back. The cheque was for GBP 4,500. If anybody wants to studyin UK now, it will set them back £9,250 (~US$13,050) per year for a 3 year degree, which comes to USD $40K.

Before I came to the US for grad school, I never owed anybody a penny. It took me 10 years to pay back my loan.

(08-28-2018 07:39 AM)puckerman Wrote:  Of course, many jobs didn't "require" a college degree. This includes many jobs that "require" a college degree now. The only reason they "require" one is because so many people have one. Employers didn't "require" them for jobs in the 1930's and 1940's because hardly anybody had a college degree. This included jobs in management, journalism, and others. Some of these people did great work as well. Lamar Muse, the founding CEO of Southwest Airlines, didn't have a college degree, for example.

The rise in college degrees has also lead in many businesses to the rise of what has been called the New Class. Basically these are people like human resources, middle managers, and others. They have degrees, so they are "too good" for menial work and "must have" office jobs so they are not "underemployed." Basically these people send most of their workday pushing papers and going to meetings. They are usually a drain on productivity. I work in health care, which has a lot of them and is why health care is so ridiculously expensive.

When I came to the US, I was shocked to learn that you need degrees to be an admin or secretary. You basically won't find anyone without a degree in any professional office. Some of the secretaries get paid very well - at one company I worked at the CEO's Executive Assistant (basically a glorified secretary) was making USD $175K 10 years ago!

We use the phrase "shit filter" in UK - it's just a filter that companies set to exclude people. Unless it's very technical, I would say that you don't need a degree to do most white collar jobs. If you're smart, or a good bullshitter who convince other to do your work for you, you can stay gainfully employed in corporate America.

I have used almost zero of the things I was taught in my undergrad in the real world.

Post: #39

Instructor to student ratio has been stagnant or decreased with tuition hikes largely a result of bloated school administrations and the fake market created by Govt backed student loans, if both problems were fixed schools would have to trim down fat and price competitively.

Post: #40

(08-28-2018 09:17 AM)11qwert11 Wrote:  at 45K student loans in Canada with a degree in biology and almost finishing a Business degree was well. 18 year old me wanted to be a doctor. Didn't have the marks 80% average.

It's all a scam. You were never going to get in a Canadian med school even if you had 80% average. You aren't a woman or from an AA ethnic minority, you are competing for small pool of musical chairs. Unless you were exception among your competitive male applicant pool you weren't going to make it. If you worked hard toward playing for the NHL, your chances suck, but at least that is still merit based.

Peter Thiel famously said,

"Only 9% of Pre-Med have slots for medical school. The other 91% are wasting their time and someone should've told them that in their freshman or sophomore year, not waited until their senior year or post-college years to figure that out."

Post: #41

(08-29-2018 01:05 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 09:17 AM)11qwert11 Wrote:  at 45K student loans in Canada with a degree in biology and almost finishing a Business degree was well. 18 year old me wanted to be a doctor. Didn't have the marks 80% average.

It's all a scam. You were never going to get in a Canadian med school even if you had 80% average. You aren't a woman or from an AA ethnic minority, you are competing for small pool of musical chairs. Unless you were exception among your competitive male applicant pool you weren't going to make it. If you worked hard toward playing for the NHL, your chances suck, but at least that is still merit based.

Peter Thiel famously said,

"Only 9% of Pre-Med have slots for medical school. The other 91% are wasting their time and someone should've told them that in their freshman or sophomore year, not waited until their senior year or post-college years to figure that out."

A buddy of mine from law school had applied for med school but wasn't accepted (so. . .he went to law school). After he finished law school and began a job with the Alberta Crown he was offered a place at U of A med school and went for it. So, after 11 years of university he was about $200,000 in debt. He paid it off in two years, bought a $600k townhouse a couple of years later and now works 8 days a month as an ER doctor for something like $350k a year.

Post: #42

This is such a crazy thread overall. The people that go to school are either geniuses for gaming the system or are idiots for doubling down, maybe in some cases tripling down. If your first degree lands you as a waiter, the second degree must be an improvement (hey at least I'm making 40K as a general manager at Starbucks), the third degree lands you as an unpaid intern at a white shoe lawyer, etc. I know some people like this, and I shit you not some have an engineering degree and are pouring coffee.

I agree with the general sentiment that college is a ripoff nowadays (unless you're a hustler gaming the system). Education is important but taking out loans is the epitome of stupidity. I think universities should bear the burden of this by taxing their endowments but our genius politicians will find a way to screw the taxpayers. I remember years back there were arguments about the student loan bubble bursting by equating it to the housing market. I personally think there is no bubble but the adverse effects will be lower birth rates and decreased home ownership.

Post: #43

(08-29-2018 09:24 AM)ChicagoFire Wrote:  This is such a crazy thread overall. The people that go to school are either geniuses for gaming the system or are idiots for doubling down, maybe in some cases tripling down. If your first degree lands you as a waiter, the second degree must be an improvement (hey at least I'm making 40K as a general manager at Starbucks), the third degree lands you as an unpaid intern at a white shoe lawyer, etc. I know some people like this, and I shit you not some have an engineering degree and are pouring coffee.

I agree with the general sentiment that college is a ripoff nowadays (unless you're a hustler gaming the system). Education is important but taking out loans is the epitome of stupidity. I think universities should bear the burden of this by taxing their endowments but our genius politicians will find a way to screw the taxpayers. I remember years back there were arguments about the student loan bubble bursting by equating it to the housing market. I personally think there is no bubble but the adverse effects will be lower birth rates and decreased home ownership.

You bring up a good point. Some double/triple down and make it but this is clearly survivorship bias. There are guys that doubled down and gloat about working 8 days per month making 350k annually and the rest are suffering quietly.

The part I didn't understand is why you think this isn't a bubble. Costs for tuition alone are mortgage sized and enough to set you back for an entire life time already. Men have wisely checked out of university, not because they are falling behind women like the MSM is framing it. We talk about MGTOW a lot but in this case men have actually walked away from college because they now know it isn't worth the risk and they are far better off for it. A ton of things are clearly in a bubble right now and student loans are clearly in one, this has been the case for almost 2 decades. It hasn't popped yet because of IBR and will probably only deflate slowly instead of bursting.

A rip off to me is the buyer's remorse I get from overpaying a meal. This student loan thing is more like modern day slavery.

Post: #44

It most likely didn't make economic sense. But the worst part would be the time they wasted.
All too often, "education" or rather "degree products" are just a commercial scam nowadays.
If an education has to be "sold" it is probably a load of shite.

Post: #45

Whenever I read some general article complaining about the soaring costs of college and student loan debt, they almost immediately attach blame to for-profit schools of every category.

But there is no way on God's green earth that $1.5 trillion in debt is coming exclusively from for-profit schools. The nonprofits make the lions share of the debt load and keep jacking up their tuition and fees on some noble sounding platitude of providing opportunity, blah blah blah. Double this when you throw in the minority student exploitation angle.

None of this will change until the easy financing through federally guaranteed loans is cut off, and that takes politicians willing to do it, which takes parents willing to face realty and harness their own damned egos. They won't - not my kid - I want the best for him! Gonna put my kid thru college, cuz you know, college. It's even worse at the law schools, but they've faced a bit of a reality check in the past 10 years. Declining enrollment numbers prove it.

Post: #46

This entire mess is created by too many "good ideas at the time, consequence be damn" type decision. One of the major issues is accreditation run a muck. Human Resource no longer have IQ test to use on applicants, instead used college degree as a sign of competency for white collar jobs. Universities started to jack up prices for allusion that expensive degree is better. Government grave out aid in hopes of increasing education in population, instead gave universities excuse to jack up prices. Add in all the course work and lack of real world experience in colleges, voila, this entire mess we have.

Lets not get into the professions such as medicine and law, as their own regulatory bodies increase prices to get a degree and practice. Making rules a bit more opaque in testing for doctors right now, making it harder to pass the test. I'm current living this hell due to my stupid choice and bullshits that crated this mess. The only thing I can do is move forward and rebuilt myself for better tomorrow.

Post: #47

Fair point, I've worked with people who couldn't or in some rare occasions wouldn't go to college because it didn't make sense financially. So in that sense there are people that are smart to avoid the scam altogether. I also remember a college declaring bankruptcy even though it had millions (?) in its endowment fund. Are professors getting tenured as much (I don't think so)? Are they still hiring diversity officers (not sure)? Have they returned to useful STEM degrees or are they doubling down on gender studies and underwater basket weaving degrees? If funds are drying up your average university can't spend money on frivolous items. Online courses are more popular, such as programming bootcamp. I'm sure that the students on their way to college, grade school etc are aware of social media figures warning them about college. That has to play a role, even though I can't prove it. So on a macro level there does seem to be a bubble. That still leaves us with the people that have loans:

What I don't know is how, when, and what will happen when this said bubble pops. I personally don't think it has but at this point we and others may very well be arguing balls and strikes. In my book if half the universities throughout the country shut down, I would concede the bubble has popped.

That scenario might happen if we wisely force universities to lower prices, focus on more concrete degrees, raise their admissions standards, and tax their endowments to cut the student loan problem. I haven't met too many morons when I was in college but I'm sure other people have and some people just shouldn't go to college and are better off digging ditches. I'm pessimistic and think taxpayers will somehow foot the bill. In the latter case, given how most of our fellow citizens are essentially sheep what will they do? Keep attending university? Maybe hold up a sign that displays their anger?

I'll concede there's a bubble but even then it's unlikely we will see something quite drastic like I stated. It will be more the lines of people waiting longer to have kids and lower birth rates.

PS:
READ MY LIPS GAME THE SYSTEM

The poster who said "If you owe the bank $100 it's your fault, but if you owe the bank $10 million it's the bank's fault" couldn't have said it better. Chances are high taxpayers are paying for this debacle. Even though I went to college, owe loans (I keep kicking the can down the line), and am not using my degree I might consider going back to school. If you have to start out fresh like I'm thinking about I might as well do it in style. Maybe I'll be the 102nd person on that list

(08-29-2018 09:58 AM)[email protected] Wrote:  The part I didn't understand is why you think this isn't a bubble. Costs for tuition alone are mortgage sized and enough to set you back for an entire life time already. Men have wisely checked out of university, not because they are falling behind women like the MSM is framing it. We talk about MGTOW a lot but in this case men have actually walked away from college because they now know it isn't worth the risk and they are far better off for it. A ton of things are clearly in a bubble right now and student loans are clearly in one, this has been the case for almost 2 decades. It hasn't popped yet because of IBR and will probably only deflate slowly instead of bursting.

A rip off to me is the buyer's remorse I get from overpaying a meal. This student loan thing is more like modern day slavery.

Post: #48

Interesting zerohedge article today talking about what I always called it, "credentialing" which is the rage in America for the last 20 years. It goes in other directions though, and gives some reasons why it won't go away (social conformity/cubicle worker), which is even more interesting.

Post: #49

(08-29-2018 06:00 PM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  Whenever I read some general article complaining about the soaring costs of college and student loan debt, they almost immediately attach blame to for-profit schools of every category.

But there is no way on God's green earth that $1.5 trillion in debt is coming exclusively from for-profit schools. The nonprofits make the lions share of the debt load and keep jacking up their tuition and fees on some noble sounding platitude of providing opportunity, blah blah blah. Double this when you throw in the minority student exploitation angle.

None of this will change until the easy financing through federally guaranteed loans is cut off, and that takes politicians willing to do it, which takes parents willing to face realty and harness their own damned egos. They won't - not my kid - I want the best for him! Gonna put my kid thru college, cuz you know, college. It's even worse at the law schools, but they've faced a bit of a reality check in the past 10 years. Declining enrollment numbers prove it.

For-profit students are the ones actually defaulting on their loans. The minority angle isn't exactly false either. A couple of these schools were straight up targeting the poorest students with promises of a real degree only for them to find out later the education is a scam, except the student, is still on the hook for all the money they took out, even if it was for a semester.

A lot of these schools were so desperate to keep the scam going that they paid workers to go find these students in the ghetto and have them sign forbearance papers. (I did this, and let me tell you, they paid a decent salary for an easy fucking job)

A lot of the students who graduated from traditional colleges are more afraid of fucking up their credit, so even if the amount of debt they've take out is absurd, they're more likely to arrange a payment plan to prevent default.

I agree with you about the solution though. We don't need to end student loan financing though, we just need to allow the students to file for bankruptcy. The price of college would drop in half in no time.

Post: #50

^^

I'm more in the camp of let's just start shutting universities down. I distinctly remember in undergrad one of the more Machiavellian tenured professors (donated to the university multiple times, been there for decades, etc) tried to convince me to join our prestigious acting school. When I look at it right now many actors in general are now working minimum wage and there's only a select few that make the big bucks.

To name other reasons: Milo at Depaul incident, U of Mizz, Eric Clanton (aka bike lock professor), Asian discrimination at Ivy league schools, etc.