All or Nothing 
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RE: Atheism is the opiate of the masses
(09-18-2011 08:56 PM)Easy E Wrote: Right-wing fundies and Islamists want to impose their religious beliefs on society.
I disagree. Religion in these cases are used as an excuse to impose law on others.
Religion is not the problem, the need to control others is. Religion is a mere symptom of the disease.
Just look at the Spanish conquering of Latin America, Nazis, Stalin, all of which came from completely different walks of life/eras/areas of the world. Yet all are strikingly similar, they all justified their terrible actions with a shockingly similar reason: they all did it for a cause. For the Christian God, for the rise of the Aryan race, for Mother Russia. You get rid of religion and everything will still be the same.
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| 09-18-2011 09:16 PM |
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Luckystar 
True Player
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RE: Atheism is the opiate of the masses
(09-19-2011 09:14 AM)Gmac Wrote: (09-19-2011 04:31 AM)Luckystar Wrote: (09-18-2011 08:56 PM)Easy E Wrote: I think religion is more of a problem than atheism.
Right-wing fundies and Islamists want to impose their religious beliefs on society.
I don't care what imaginary god someone wants to believe in, but I think people tend to draw the line when you try to use violence (Islamists) or the State (right-wing fundies) to impose your religious beliefs on everyone else.
You forget that religious people have to live in a secular society in which 'non-religious' policies are administered upon them. It's a much more difficult position to be in than we think.
Also, perfect example of atheistic ignorance - was it really necessary to by use the term 'imaginary' when referring to god. You sound disrespectful, ignorant, and provocative.
Personally, I can understand and accept the merits of both views. I think there is an elementary goodness that should exist for all to make both types of people comfortable. I realize it's utopian thinking.
What term would you substitute for imaginary? False? Fake?
When people bring up Santa Clause, Zeus, or the Tooth Fairy it's just as hard to take them seriously. Hence, terms like imaginary.
What is the intent of the word? Why do you have a need to define god as 'fake', 'false', 'imaginary', etc? That's the point.
I know some religious people who don't trust atheists because they don't have a moral code. I'm not sure why people have the need to judge each other's credibility (ie. trust or intelligence/'taking them seriously') based on subject that should be very personal. Just my thoughts.
(This post was last modified: 09-20-2011 03:05 AM by Luckystar.)
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| 09-20-2011 02:35 AM |
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Luckystar
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RE: Atheism is the opiate of the masses
(09-19-2011 05:52 PM)oldnemesis Wrote: (09-19-2011 04:38 AM)Luckystar Wrote: Stalin, Hiter, Mao, Khmer Rouge.....The Ukraine famine killed as many as the Holocaust.
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Those are examples of a history of killing stemming from atheism. Are facts.
I have to say your knowledge of history really sucks. Catholicism was a significant power in Nazi Germany. We had churches in USSR. Buddhism wasn't banned in China during Mao. Holocaust was about racism and had nothing to do with religion. Neither was Ukrainian famine.
Quote:Present day example - modern day China. Don't tell me they aren't killing and exiling people for practicing religion.
You got it wrong again - they are exiling people for practicing specific wrong (in their opinion) religions, while there is a lot of "approved" religions. Same way you can be punished for practicing Christianity in public in some Muslim countries. This all, of course, has nothing to do with atheism.
Quote:Also, there is an obvious hypocrisy of simply putting up banners. They are imposing their beliefs upon others. I'm not sure why atheists have such a chip on their shoulder. Not sure if they realize we live in a secular society. They've gotten spoiled.
Every time I drive to my gym I see several churches with banners telling me there is some Jesus who wants something from me. Do they have a chip on their shoulder? Do they realize we live in a secular society?
1. You are actually right on most of those accounts of history. I did not read carefully enough. Although, I have many Russian friends whose older family members have told me people being locked/killed for going to their churches during the Soviet era and that communist regime were endorsing an atheist society. That's my impression from some witnesses. I would also dispute the fact the Holocaust had 'nothing' to do with religion.
2. ON, I've filed refugee cases for Chinese applicants to Canada. Part of my (successful) applications is outlining the punishments of practicing religions stemming from an atheistic regime. I literally use the term athiest in my applications.You are wrong.
3. If you look at the direction of policy making in the western world in general, you will see a clear movement toward secularization and the dissection of religious elements. I think it's pretty clear is which group feels their values are being taken away. Thus the desperate need to propogate (ie. put banners up). You can reference terrorism and other impositions, but the fact remains the world is evolving into secularism and religious groups are even more fearful of that than each other.
I'm not goin to argue it further, however. I've got better things to do. You're free to disagree, my friend. I know you will.
(This post was last modified: 09-20-2011 03:07 AM by Luckystar.)
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| 09-20-2011 02:55 AM |
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Handsome Creepy Eel 
Innovative Casanova
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RE: Atheism is the opiate of the masses
Atheism can be as good or bad as religion, it has no inherent bias. And despite whatever might have happened in the Soviet Union, I am greatly annoyed whenever I hear about how "atheists slaughtered priests and religious people".
In my country (part of Ex-Yugoslavia), we frequently have right-wingers claiming that communists killed hundreds of thousands of priests and clergy. Whereas the entire Catholic and Protestant churches had no more than several tens of thousands of priests at that time. That means that all the priests in the world had to be killed, resurrected, then killed again, and so on and so on...
In reality, the actual number killed was about 500, most of whom were helping to round up Jews and Gypsies for our satellite Nazi government, or were sheltering its officials later.
Religion was frowned upon, as was visiting churches, and doing so barred you from membership in the Communist Party. But no one would round you up and beat or kill you for it.
"Imagine" by HCE | Hitler reacts to Battle of Montreal | An alternative use for squid that has never crossed your mind before
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| 09-20-2011 06:13 AM |
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Gmac
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RE: Atheism is the opiate of the masses
(09-20-2011 06:13 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote: Atheism can be as good or bad as religion, it has no inherent bias. And despite whatever might have happened in the Soviet Union, I am greatly annoyed whenever I hear about how "atheists slaughtered priests and religious people".
Communism is an ideology very similar to a religion. It wasn't Atheists who slaughtered those priests, it was communists. It's not like they were "killing in the name of atheism", which is absurd in itself.
Religion is a complex set of traditions and beliefs. Atheism is a viewpoint, so it cannot be as "good or bad" as religion. It isn't a religion, an ideology, a belief system, or a philosophy. It's the absence of a particular belief, that's it. They aren't even in the same category.
The same goes for people who don't believe in santa clause, the tooth fairy, ghosts, aliens, the boogieman, mother goose, big foot, or the lochness monster.
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(This post was last modified: 09-20-2011 11:02 AM by Gmac.)
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| 09-20-2011 10:48 AM |
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oldnemesis
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RE: Atheism is the opiate of the masses
(09-20-2011 02:55 AM)Luckystar Wrote: 1. You are actually right on most of those accounts of history. I did not read carefully enough. Although, I have many Russian friends whose older family members have told me people being locked/killed for going to their churches during the Soviet era and that communist regime were endorsing an atheist society. That's my impression from some witnesses. I would also dispute the fact the Holocaust had 'nothing' to do with religion.
You guys here in US tend to put a lot of weight into personal testimonies, and tend to extrapolate them into a larger scale. This doesn't work. People tend to share only a specific subset of stories, generally those which make them look favorable. Would you really expect someone to tell you his grandpa was locked up for drunk raping a teenager or stealing from the factory? Of course he gonna tell you his grandpa was locked up because of his religious beliefs.
Holocaust was genocide of Jews, no matter which religion they practiced.
Quote:2. ON, I've filed refugee cases for Chinese applicants to Canada. Part of my (successful) applications is outlining the punishments of practicing religions stemming from an atheistic regime. I literally use the term athiest in my applications.You are wrong.
Most refugee cases I've seen here in US were just laughing stock filed up by crook lawyers who rely on misinformation. It is sad it seems to be the case in Canada as well. So you filed up some cases with this information and now you claim I'm wrong? Funny.
Quote:3. If you look at the direction of policy making in the western world in general, you will see a clear movement toward secularization and the dissection of religious elements.
There is huge difference between the western world in general and the US. America is way, way below the rest of the world on that matter. You know, we still have the city governments praying(!!!) before the city meetings. They pass the "faith healing" laws. And this is 21st century.
Quote:I think it's pretty clear is which group feels their values are being taken away.
There is a huge difference between "there is less christian presence around" (which is something I really support, there is STILL too much) and your statement about atheists "imposing their beliefs on others".
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| 09-20-2011 03:42 PM |
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Ajiaco
Recovering Beta
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RE: Atheism is the opiate of the masses
I agree that Atheism has a lot to answer for in the 20th century, and I agree that religious belief has its benefits in terms of disseminating morality, creating culture, keeping dumb people from being reprobrates, and giving people a sense of meaning and selflessness in their lives.
But I can't get past the absurdity of religious belief. It doesn't pass the laugh test. So there's a magic man in the sky, and he created a world with humans who he ordered to pray to him (narcissist much?), and he gave humans a sliver of time to act a certain way, after which they would be judged for ETERNITY with pleasure or punishment. Not to mention the fact that only one religion can really be the true one, or maybe none of them.
Still, it doesn't seem like getting rid of religion makes anyone any smarter, less warlike, more interesting or a better person. Most people who stop going to church replace it with what exactly? Consumerism? Politics? More television?
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| 09-20-2011 11:00 PM |
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