Post: #1

From the failing NY Times but still interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/opini...ntage.html

Quote:Richard Nisbett, a professor of psychology who has written an excellent book about intelligence, cites a study that followed a pool of Chinese-American children and a pool of white children into adulthood. The two groups started out with the same scores on I.Q. tests, but in the end 55 percent of the Asian-Americans entered high-status occupations, compared with one-third of the whites. To succeed as a manager, whites needed an I.Q. of 100, while Chinese-Americans needed an I.Q. of only 93.

So the Asian advantage, Nisbett argues, isn’t intellectual firepower as such, but how it is harnessed.

Quote below is something that I can relate to in my personal experience as it's what my own Asian parents had told me:

Quote:There’s also evidence that Americans believe that A’s go to smart kids, while Asians are more likely to think that they go to hard workers. The truth is probably somewhere in between, but the result is that Asian-American kids are allowed no excuse for getting B’s — or even an A-. The joke is that an A- is an “Asian F.”

I was never educated in Asia myself (unless you count pre-school) but from hearing about the experiences of my parents and also of relatives my age, it's a grinder with lots of rote learning and endless memorization and repetition - not exactly something that will produce lots of independent free-thinkers but it does at least build up mental fortitude and grit that can substitute for natural talent.

Laziness is the enemy of natural talent and the Asian form of education does a lot of mitigate that and pushes for people to fulfill the most of their potential even if their potential isn't exceptional. Being able to harness 90% of 10 units of intelligence > harnessing 50% of 15 points of intelligence.

Post: #2

Yeah, I never bought the argument that Asian children are naturally smarter or less creative that whites. It's mostly if not entirely environmental. Also isn't IQ in part determined by environment? It could be a positive feedback loop. Force yourself to study hard and you will become more intelligent than someone who doesn't.

Post: #3

The problem with using "Hard Work" is that it's non-measurable. So any assertions that "Hard Work" caused a differential result is non-scientific. Because Richard Nisbett cannot measure "Hard Work", it makes just as much sense for him to say that Chinese people succeed despite 93-average IQs, because invisible unicorns fart in the faces of newborn Chinese-Americans.

But I was lying about "Hard Work" being non-measurable. "Hard Work" is highly correlated to the Big Five Personality Trait named "Conscientiousness", which is the second-highest predictor of Academic Success, accounting for about 16% of it.

The highest-predictor of Academic Success is General Intelligence (a.k.a. IQ), which predicts at least 40% of it.

-----

Your article is interesting, but be very careful when people use "Hard Work" in the non-measurable sense.

Post: #4

(01-12-2018 03:07 PM)Wutang Wrote:  I was never educated in Asia myself (unless you count pre-school) but from hearing about the experiences of my parents and also of relatives my age, it's a grinder with lots of rote learning and endless memorization and repetition - not exactly something that will produce lots of independent free-thinkers but it does at give build up mental fortitude and grit that can substitute for natural talent.
Laziness is the enemy of natural talent and the Asian form of education does a lot of mitigate that and pushes for people to fulfill the most of their potential even if their potential isn't exceptional. Being able to harness 90% of 10 units of intelligence > harnessing 50% of 15 points of intelligence.

It's hard to separate genetic ability from culture.

It is my personal opinion that race is probably the most overrated idea in the entire world. The actual genetic difference between ethnic groups is very small.

Post: #5

(01-12-2018 03:45 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  The problem with using "Hard Work" is that it's non-measurable. So any assertions that "Hard Work" caused a differential result is non-scientific. Because Richard Nisbett cannot measure "Hard Work", it makes just as much sense for him to say that Chinese people succeed despite 93-average IQs, because invisible unicorns fart in the faces of newborn Chinese-Americans.

But I was lying about "Hard Work" being non-measurable. "Hard Work" is highly correlated to the Big Five Personality Trait named "Conscientiousness", which is the second-highest predictor of Academic Success, accounting for about 16% of it.

The highest-predictor of Academic Success is General Intelligence (a.k.a. IQ), which predicts at least 40% of it.

What else explains have a 7-point difference in IQ yet getting and succeeding in higher paying jobs? Luck?

He examined the beliefs of Chinese and Whites and found they are more likely to belief hard work alters life outcomes. Whereas whites are more likely to believe talent is innate so why bother.

Post: #6

Boss Of Bosses Wrote:What else explains have a 7-point difference in IQ yet getting and succeeding in higher paying jobs? Luck?

That doesn't really matter.

What matters is that there are two contrary ways to study "Hard Work".

One, define it as "Conscientiousness", a Big Five Personality Trait that has been firmly scientifically established, and is measurable. When you do this, General Intelligence predicts Future Success by more than 200%.

Two, refuse to define it as "Conscientiousness" - which results in an undefined (and not scientifically study-able) term that people invoke to explain all sorts of things.

I think the first approach is better because it solves more problems, while the second is worse because it creates more problems. (And I also think that political agendas are the major reason that people use the second approach.)

Post: #7

What about a third option - well-established avenues of cheating?

Post: #8

(01-12-2018 07:26 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

Boss Of Bosses Wrote:What else explains have a 7-point difference in IQ yet getting and succeeding in higher paying jobs? Luck?

That doesn't really matter.

What matters is that there are two contrary ways to study "Hard Work".

One, define it as "Conscientiousness", a Big Five Personality Trait that has been firmly scientifically established, and is measurable. When you do this, General Intelligence predicts Future Success by more than 200%.

MMX2010, conscientiousness (the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant) is not the same thing as hard work. One is a basic approach or disposition, the other is an action. They are not even in the same class of things. The reason why it is not "defined" as conscientious in this study is because they are two entirely different concepts.

You're right it's difficult to measure "hard work" as it is somewhat subjective. So he measures it's effects in this study. That's what your missing.

And predicting intelligence by "200%" sounds downright silly. If impossible.

Quote:What about a third option - well-established avenues of cheating?

I would imagine it is quite hard to cheat your way into high-paying job and succeed at it.

Post: #9

Boss Of Bosses Wrote:MMX2010, conscientiousness (the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant) is not the same thing as hard work. One is a basic approach or disposition, the other is an action.

Meanwhile, if you have a disposition to pay attention, you'll pay more attention. And if you have a disposition to remember large numbers of facts, you'll remember large numbers of facts.

Which is why Dispositions lead to Actions

BossOfBosses Wrote:You're right it's difficult to measure "hard work" as it is somewhat subjective. So he measures it's effects in this study. That's what your missing.

No.

He.

Does.

Not.

To actually measure the effects of "Hard Work" in this study, he would have to measure All Other Possible Contributions to Asian Success, and then exclude them. (This is the natural consequence of trying to determine whether a non-measurable variable is causing anything to happen. If the variable you're studying is measurable, you measure it; but if it's not measurable, you prove that all of the measurable variables aren't contributing.)

Since Nisbett didn't exclude all possible measurable variables, he didn't determine the effects of Hard Work in his study. He merely speculated that it was causing Asian American success.

What happens when you speculate that a Feel Good variable is causing something to happen? A bunch of people who Feel Good about the speculation proclaim that it isn't speculation.

Post: #10

(01-12-2018 08:05 PM)BossOfBosses Wrote:  

Quote:What about a third option - well-established avenues of cheating?

I would imagine it is quite hard to cheat your way into high-paying job and succeed at it.

Not really. Get past the interview, and once youve actually got the job, its really quite easy to fool your paymasters. I did it myself for several years. Hated the job but it did pay well.

Still, i did notice the little switch you did there. I was talking about grades, youre talking about jobs. Dont you find it just a little curious that asians that cant string 2 words of english together, magically develop impecable english reading and writing skills at test time, which then evaporate as quick as they came? Or is that another one of the things we're not supposed to notice about the wonders of diversity?

Post: #11

(01-12-2018 08:29 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  Meanwhile, if you have a disposition to pay attention, you'll pay more attention. And if you have a disposition to remember large numbers of facts, you'll remember large numbers of facts.

Which is why Dispositions lead to Actions

You're missing the point once again.

"maybe possibly leading" to something is not the same as doing it. You cannot measure "hard work" by measuring "conscientiousness". No scientist in the history of science has EVER done that. It is not a substitute.

Just like you cannot measure how productive a company is by the number of "highly conscientious" female employees with gender studies degrees it has.

Quote:To actually measure the effects of "Hard Work" in this study, he would have to measure All Other Possible Contributions to Asian Success, and then exclude them. (This is the natural consequence of trying to determine whether a non-measurable variable is causing anything to happen. If the variable you're studying is measurable, you measure it; but if it's not measurable, you prove that all of the measurable variables aren't contributing.)

Since Nisbett didn't exclude all possible measurable variables, he didn't determine the effects of Hard Work in his study. He merely speculated that it was causing Asian American success.

What happens when you speculate that a Feel Good variable is causing something to happen? A bunch of people who Feel Good about the speculation proclaim that it isn't speculation.

What about "He selected two different groups with two different belief systems, IQ scores and compared the results" don't you get?

What imaginary variables could contribute to differences in results with a larger impact than hard work or IQ?

Post: #12

(01-12-2018 08:48 PM)king bast Wrote:  Still, i did notice the little switch you did there. I was talking about grades, youre talking about jobs. Dont you find it just a little curious that asians that cant string 2 words of english together, magically develop impecable english reading and writing skills at test time, which then evaporate as quick as they came? Or is that another one of the things we're not supposed to notice about the wonders of diversity?

Asian Americans are not Asian international students. They are fluent in English, probably more so than you, going by how many grammatical and spelling mistakes you made in that post, because their culture (and their parents) does not tolerate such mistakes.

I can sympathise if you've been a student at an Australian university where the Asian internationals are just terrible especially in group projects. I am an Asian Australian and I was in a similar group where my Asian international class mates were terrible at just about everything. I actually reported them to my professor and was frustrated that nothing was done.

However, like I said, don't mix up the two different types of Asians. It would be the same mistake as thinking white Americans and Europeans are exactly the same.

Post: #13

Boss Of Bosses Wrote:You cannot measure "hard work" by measuring "conscientiousness".

Tell me your definition of Conscientiousness.

Boss Of Bosses Wrote:What imaginary variables could contribute to differences in results with a larger impact than hard work or IQ?

(1) Racial solidarity.

(2) Two is below.

The Article Wrote:Strong two-parent families are a factor, too. Divorce rates are much lower for many Asian-American communities than for Americans as a whole, and there’s evidence that two-parent households are less likely to sink into poverty and also have better outcomes for boys in particular.

(3) Three is below.

The Article Wrote:Lee and Zhou, for their part, think that positive stereotyping may be part of an explanation for the success of Asian-Americans in school.

(4) Four is below.

The Article Wrote:Lee and Zhou also say the success of Asian-Americans, far from revealing a lack of discrimination, is in part a testament to it. They say Asian-Americans work hard to succeed in areas with clear metrics like math and science in part as a protection against bias — and in any case, many Asians still perceive a “bamboo ceiling” that is hard to break through.

Post: #14

Delete - double post

Post: #15

Im not sure they are so different. I knew id seen some articles about asians scamming australian universities , but when i googled, there was an equally impressive suite of articles about the same phenomenon in american unis.

It seems that just as there may be a cultural tendency towards "hard work" there may also be a cultural tendency towards cheating. If the pressure for grades is half as great as its reputed to be, its going to lead to more than a few having to fake it.

Post: #16

(01-12-2018 09:11 PM)king bast Wrote:  Im not sure they are so different. I knew id seen some articles about asians scamming australian universities , but when i googled, there was an equally impressive suite of articles about the same phenomenon in american unis.

It seems that just as there may be a cultural tendency towards "hard work" there may also be a cultural tendency towards cheating. If the pressure for grades is half as great as its reputed to be, its going to lead to more than a few having to fake it.

You're confusing western-born Asians with students from China or India. Yeah there are occasional instances of people in those countries (mostly China) paying other people to take their standardized tests for them. And in both countries schooling mostly focuses on memorization rather than actual learning -- I knew guys from India who were literally forced to memorize entire passages from certain novels and regurgitate them for their English exams.

On the positive side, though, this forces them to actually grind and work hard, which is more than I can say for the public school system in America.

With that being said, western-born Asians tend to congregate in heavily Asian areas where the academic pressure is intense. These people work their asses off and are generally high achievers. I would know from having grown up in this kind of environment. It doesn't breed people who are going to out and crush pussy, but it does definitely encourage intelligence and hard work.

Post: #17

I can also attest to the asian-american work ethic since i'm from that background and saw it with peers at the time. Asian parents tend to drive their kids hard because that generation has a deep scarcity mentality brought upon by actual experiences of living in poverty.

Cheating is definitely a thing for some asians but it's hardly why Asian-americans do well in particular. Like Agastaya said that sort of thing is mostly coming from FOB international students.

I think it's a combination of factors involving IQ and cultural inclinations.

That's why if you started looking under a magnifying glass you'd see a big performance difference between southeast and northeast asians too. Southeast asians tend to have a different mentality and aren't influenced as much by confucian work ethic. Confucian work ethic is not too different from the protestant work ethic in practice.

People in the mainstream media tend to lump all asians together (including subcontinent people with southeast/northeast asians) which is patently ridiculous.

Post: #18

Have you seen how disciplined their ancestors were? I'm sure that discipline and a desire to always do their best in whatever task they undertake is a huge factor as well. In the times of the samurai, men would dedicate their entire lives to the study of the sword, and would not stop short of mastery. Some of this must surely come into play.

Post: #19

I didn't mean to give the impression I thought it was solely due to cheating, but unfortunately it does contribute.

The fact that it's become prevalent enough to be a stereotype shows it does move the needle, along with other factors including hard work and IQ, when viewed on a big enough scale.

That's the problem with presenting these arguments as dichotomies - hard work or IQ, nature or nurture, rather than a result of many intertwined and differently weighted factors.

Post: #20

Cheating is not in the least bit the reason for the success of Asians in America. I’m sure that some FOB engineers may get run through the system withour being properly qualified, but that has a microscopic impaxt on the experience of Asians who were born in America.

Post: #21

When the white kids are out smoking weed and fucking around the Chinese kids are studying or doing their piano lessons. It's not hard to get better grades in that situation.

Post: #22

In this particular phenomenon I would say the 'hard work' being done here would be all the endless hours spent memorizing mounds of data and than being able to spit it out in the near future in a coherent way that assures good grades. The East Asian school system is almost geared entirely around this. Having a high IQ and all the traits that are associated with a high IQ such as memory no doubt greatly assists in this, but a lack of IQ can be compensated for by simply investing more time and effort. David Li might be able to memorize 30 vocabulary words in half the time Raymond Zhou because of his higher IQ, but if Raymond Zhou is willing to put in twice the amount of time than when quiz time comes, they're going to get the same results.

Post: #23

Hard work = conscientiousness which is a component of virtually all success in life.

That said, I'd Asians have the positive "smart" stereotype working for them, so people may be more apt to overestimate an Asian intelligence and attribute their good ideas to intelligence rather than luck or hard work. I mean, it's better than being black and having everyone think all your success was due to affirmative action or handouts. Haha. So I got no hate for my asian bros.

That said, I'd say, as a man living in China, that Asian (chinese-specifically) IQ is vastly overrated and, perhaps, overstated in many cases. Lotta dumb asians just like any other race. I don't buy the "average Chinese IQ of 100" line at all.

Post: #24

(01-13-2018 04:25 AM)Fortis Wrote:  That said, I'd Asians have the positive "smart" stereotype working for them, so people may be more apt to overestimate an Asian intelligence and attribute their good ideas to intelligence rather than luck or hard work. I mean, it's better than being black and having everyone think all your success was due to affirmative action or handouts. Haha. So I got no hate for my asian bros.

It's usually better to be underestimated in life if an individual's natural ability defies the standard racial categorization. You can always take advantage of when people have their guard down and get cocky with their assumptions.

This is why I don't even bother debating the point when people say asians are non creative passive office drones or sexless omegas. I'll just nod my head. "Sure thing buddy, I'm a sexless omega office drone alright!" *bows slowly with rice hat on head with hands in sleeves*

More times than not being underestimated in this way has worked solely in my favor. People certainly don't see whatever is coming whether it be business or personal.

I'm sure the dumb black man categorization can also work in the favor of smart crafty dudes with hustle.

Post: #25

IQ testing results in China are not super reliable but we places like Japan/Korea/Hong Kong are much more so. They consistently show higher than 100 scores. If you look at things like SAT scores in the US you see the same thing. I would argue it is clearly a combination of the 2 though. Some of the FOB Asians would have to be kicked out of the library in college, while the frat guys were getting drunk on the weekends they were pounding out math problems.

To the point on cheating that is definitely true in China/India, but cheating on something like the SAT's in America is not possible and we see the same overall trends.