Post: #26

Footnote to the above:

She went and made me bacon and eggs after her spanking and brought them to me at my desk, without being asked. She had the most confused look on her face, like she wasn't sure why she did it.

I don't do that as punishment much but I think it was important as a teaching tool that I waited until after she'd internalized that she was wrong and until after the bang. Once she'd accepted that she did something wrong, she didn't question why she was being disciplined. As somebody said on another thread, fucking is lower on the totem pole than friendship. It's just a chore for her to do. She's been taught over the years that keeping my balls empty is just part of the job, and she can't get the idea that it's transactional and that she can buy her way out of trouble like that.

Getting fucked in the morning was just part of the baseline of being tolerably well-behaved, it doesn't mean she's off the hook for being disrespectful yesterday. I think that surprised her, but it definitely improved her attitude.

Post: #27

Jetset, you are doing it right.

Post: #28

This thread is Cr33pin bait.

Post: #29

This will be obvious to some but not to others, so bondage is a perfect way to train a girl or a sub. It calms them down, especially after the first time if they're nervous. It allows you to position them any way you want. If you want to hogtie her, or use a spreader bar, or tie her hands to the bed posts it shows them how you like them physically positioned. Face down v Face up, head hanging over the bed, gagged or not, hands behind back or cuffed to a collar. And you can use a bed, couch, chair, floor, wall, standing up.

Spank them first, some light choking and hair pulling, give them a big orgasm and very very soon they'll want you do it to them more than you did in the first place.

Post: #30

A lot of good input here. This thread has veered sexually quite a bit and I understand that bondage is a great way to get loyalty from girls, but I was also wondering other things as well. For example, if I newly acquire an 8 for LTR material - what are the best steps to making her an ideal partner? Train sexually sure, but there's also other stuff. Do you guys introduce her to other girls that are friends of yours?, replace her social circle if they're people you don't like? ie. other girls that are slutty and a bad influence, etc.

I recently just did that with an 8, where I introduced her to one of my acquaintances so that she could be in a much better social circle than her current one. Going well so far.

Post: #31

(10-03-2017 01:16 AM)True Balla Wrote:  A lot of good input here. This thread has veered sexually quite a bit and I understand that bondage is a great way to get loyalty from girls, but I was also wondering other things as well. For example, if I newly acquire an 8 for LTR material - what are the best steps to making her an ideal partner? Train sexually sure, but there's also other stuff. Do you guys introduce her to other girls that are friends of yours?, replace her social circle if they're people you don't like? ie. other girls that are slutty and a bad influence, etc.

I recently just did that with an 8, where I introduced her to one of my acquaintances so that she could be in a much better social circle than her current one. Going well so far.

To answer your question here before going on a bit of a rant...

- I don't integrate immediately into social circle. The girls in my social circle are a bit catty and defensive (mainly girls are) so it's more of a case-by-case basis. Only after 5-6 dates do I introduce properly, in a public setting as I want my girl-friends to also be a bit curious and wanting to meet this girl instead of outright being 'mean girls' about it. They will compare themselves immediately regardless. That being said, my girl-friends will know about her way before she knows about them.

- I don't replace social circles. We integrate here and there but I don't want to ruin friendships when/if we break up. It's shit when you have to cut people off when you break up with a person (this is mainly a girl thing to be honest) or avoid certain circles so don't force this. Be wary of fucking up the balance of social circles for yourself and for her.

- Influences - I let my girl know straight up who I like and who I don't like. When she asks why, I tell her. When we are out, I motion at her with my eyes when that person is doing said behaviour. The idea, example, action works for me.


On to the title and OP:


You gotta impose your frame and that's the way the cookie crumbles.

The (unfortunate) elephant in the room is that the biggest thing you can do to pull this shit off is if you live together. Then it's a whole fucking can of worms but she will change quicker than anything else.

I can tell you what I did and it worked. Gonna try and keep it non-sexual as some other fellas covered those parts.

Most importantly, pick the right girl.

She must be open minded but also submissive.

The submissive is a consequence of her pinging off your value (how many other girls want you/handsome/dominant/rich). If you ain't high status, you can't train shit.


High status + demanding it + leveraging her emotions and esteem through challenging (a bit sociopathic) = training win.


The other easy way is taking a girls virginity, that can be categorized easily.


Beginning

- discuss it in the beginning -> chicks like to talk about their ideal partners and shit, same way we envision being super rich/fit/surrounded by pussy.

They recall this shit later down the line. Tell her what you expect but frame it as a discussion, just to see where she stands. It's a reconnaissance thing.


- whatever you do, it's as normal as wiping your ass. Make it known that this is what you are used to and demand it. You want a woman who can cook? It's what you are used to, women cook for you all the time. You can do it yourself. Can she cook?

- you bring shit to the table, so let's cooperate. Can she fix that shelf? No? Thought so. For every demand, throw out some cooperation. She needs you.


- start demanding shit until she eventually says no. You will be surprised, how high a woman's threshold is for agreeing to shit is, when they are into you. Again, I am covering the non-sexual shit here.


- when she says no, do one of the following:

a) encourage her that it would be a good fit for her and how you like it when she does x y z. You are looking for a partner like that.

OR

b) make it known that other girls want you and that she has competition. If she thinks it's a bluff, introduce her to other girls or show her. Turn her scarcity into leverage


Either way, no just means not yet, I treat it as a shit test regardless.



Later on

- it's good for you and it's good for me -> BE A TEAM

You make me happy, I am happy and motivated to keep you happy.
Cook, clean, be pleasant. Frame it as a good lesson and part of growing up. If she can't do shit well, frame how it's essential she knows, for her to be a good girl and a wanted woman. If I wanted a fuck that breathes around me, I could go elsewhere.


- challenge her and don't be a pussy when she challenges you back.

Her friends can do it and she can't? Let her know (indirectly).

Bring her up. Do well and she will do well. My girl does this with me, if I am slacking in one way or another (gym/money making) she will tell me that I am being a lazy fuck and need to step up. That's fine, I know I got a homecooked meal and clean clothes waiting for me at home.


- make her want to please you through rewards. Once your high value aura fucks off, shes knows the actual filthbag you are and knows your parents well, she won't do it just because she wants to keep you around. She will do it out of affection, it being normal and wanting to please you.

Still, the 'unwrapping gifts' phase is over, so show your appreciation. I don't wanna sound like Cosmo and it's not always roses and shit, so you do the maths.

At this point, you guys should be like clockwork.


- communicate. Now this is some Cosmo shit. This is just damage control. She should be trained by now. If she ain't you have wasted your time being around her or picked a bad apprentice.

Progress never ends so keep communicating what you want her to change. Thing is, if this is 3-6 months in, you have to frame it as 'we' change.

Otherwise she will bring out her bitter side and say 'well you still do X' or 'what about when you do Y' and it just becomes a pissing contest.



Recap:

in the start:

- frame what you are entitled to and let her know that you are the one doing the choosing, not her

- let the social circle work happen naturally, she will be accepted or rejected naturally. If she gives a fuck, she will make an effort and actually change a bit (adapt to it)

- you scratch my back I scratch yours, I can do shit too baby. If I can't, I am willing to learn (because I want to be the best I can and upskill) -> you have to have this personality trait



later on:

- framing like above

- you make it known that you are leveling up for her (equity/if I do it for you, I expect the same)

- when she progresses, encourage her. At all times, make her feel good about whatever is happening. She will notice this when her friends will tell her 'omg you have changed etc.' as well as her family. shift it into a team sport and you are both progressing (in womanese: our relationship is progressing). In reality, you are pulling the strings)

- when she stagnates, communicate that with her indirectly, that you both are not progressing. If she is stubborn, speak womanese and compare her to her friends, INDIRECTLY. (in womanese: is it true that Sara can make a mean roast dinner? / wow, Jessica really lost a lot of weight huh, ) + bonus points if you can compliment her friends in front of her in a semi-flirty way and handle any kind of shit test thereafter. This is the shit women stay up at night thinking about. The motivated ones do something about the. The rest, I don't know, their asses hit the curb I suppose.


Companionship/behaviour training - Direct in the beginning as it's still flirting progressing towards indirect as it can be scarring for her esteem

Sexual training - Direct always


Appearance/health training - Indirect always, find external motivation, make it a 'we' thing. Take some of the responsibility (even though it's not yours because women's egos are too fragile to bear the whole weight of it)


There's not universal guide, but these are my own experiences.

Post: #32

+1 Rep. Well stated Noir!

(10-03-2017 08:49 AM)Noir Wrote:  

(10-03-2017 01:16 AM)True Balla Wrote:  A lot of good input here. This thread has veered sexually quite a bit and I understand that bondage is a great way to get loyalty from girls, but I was also wondering other things as well. For example, if I newly acquire an 8 for LTR material - what are the best steps to making her an ideal partner? Train sexually sure, but there's also other stuff. Do you guys introduce her to other girls that are friends of yours?, replace her social circle if they're people you don't like? ie. other girls that are slutty and a bad influence, etc.

I recently just did that with an 8, where I introduced her to one of my acquaintances so that she could be in a much better social circle than her current one. Going well so far.

To answer your question here before going on a bit of a rant...

- I don't integrate immediately into social circle. The girls in my social circle are a bit catty and defensive (mainly girls are) so it's more of a case-by-case basis. Only after 5-6 dates do I introduce properly, in a public setting as I want my girl-friends to also be a bit curious and wanting to meet this girl instead of outright being 'mean girls' about it. They will compare themselves immediately regardless. That being said, my girl-friends will know about her way before she knows about them.

- I don't replace social circles. We integrate here and there but I don't want to ruin friendships when/if we break up. It's shit when you have to cut people off when you break up with a person (this is mainly a girl thing to be honest) or avoid certain circles so don't force this. Be wary of fucking up the balance of social circles for yourself and for her.

- Influences - I let my girl know straight up who I like and who I don't like. When she asks why, I tell her. When we are out, I motion at her with my eyes when that person is doing said behaviour. The idea, example, action works for me.


On to the title and OP:


You gotta impose your frame and that's the way the cookie crumbles.

The (unfortunate) elephant in the room is that the biggest thing you can do to pull this shit off is if you live together. Then it's a whole fucking can of worms but she will change quicker than anything else.

I can tell you what I did and it worked. Gonna try and keep it non-sexual as some other fellas covered those parts.

Most importantly, pick the right girl.

She must be open minded but also submissive.

The submissive is a consequence of her pinging off your value (how many other girls want you/handsome/dominant/rich). If you ain't high status, you can't train shit.


High status + demanding it + leveraging her emotions and esteem through challenging (a bit sociopathic) = training win.


The other easy way is taking a girls virginity, that can be categorized easily.


Beginning

- discuss it in the beginning -> chicks like to talk about their ideal partners and shit, same way we envision being super rich/fit/surrounded by pussy.

They recall this shit later down the line. Tell her what you expect but frame it as a discussion, just to see where she stands. It's a reconnaissance thing.


- whatever you do, it's as normal as wiping your ass. Make it known that this is what you are used to and demand it. You want a woman who can cook? It's what you are used to, women cook for you all the time. You can do it yourself. Can she cook?

- you bring shit to the table, so let's cooperate. Can she fix that shelf? No? Thought so. For every demand, throw out some cooperation. She needs you.


- start demanding shit until she eventually says no. You will be surprised, how high a woman's threshold is for agreeing to shit is, when they are into you. Again, I am covering the non-sexual shit here.


- when she says no, do one of the following:

a) encourage her that it would be a good fit for her and how you like it when she does x y z. You are looking for a partner like that.

OR

b) make it known that other girls want you and that she has competition. If she thinks it's a bluff, introduce her to other girls or show her. Turn her scarcity into leverage


Either way, no just means not yet, I treat it as a shit test regardless.



Later on

- it's good for you and it's good for me -> BE A TEAM

You make me happy, I am happy and motivated to keep you happy.
Cook, clean, be pleasant. Frame it as a good lesson and part of growing up. If she can't do shit well, frame how it's essential she knows, for her to be a good girl and a wanted woman. If I wanted a fuck that breathes around me, I could go elsewhere.


- challenge her and don't be a pussy when she challenges you back.

Her friends can do it and she can't? Let her know (indirectly).

Bring her up. Do well and she will do well. My girl does this with me, if I am slacking in one way or another (gym/money making) she will tell me that I am being a lazy fuck and need to step up. That's fine, I know I got a homecooked meal and clean clothes waiting for me at home.


- make her want to please you through rewards. Once your high value aura fucks off, shes knows the actual filthbag you are and knows your parents well, she won't do it just because she wants to keep you around. She will do it out of affection, it being normal and wanting to please you.

Still, the 'unwrapping gifts' phase is over, so show your appreciation. I don't wanna sound like Cosmo and it's not always roses and shit, so you do the maths.

At this point, you guys should be like clockwork.


- communicate. Now this is some Cosmo shit. This is just damage control. She should be trained by now. If she ain't you have wasted your time being around her or picked a bad apprentice.

Progress never ends so keep communicating what you want her to change. Thing is, if this is 3-6 months in, you have to frame it as 'we' change.

Otherwise she will bring out her bitter side and say 'well you still do X' or 'what about when you do Y' and it just becomes a pissing contest.



Recap:

in the start:

- frame what you are entitled to and let her know that you are the one doing the choosing, not her

- let the social circle work happen naturally, she will be accepted or rejected naturally. If she gives a fuck, she will make an effort and actually change a bit (adapt to it)

- you scratch my back I scratch yours, I can do shit too baby. If I can't, I am willing to learn (because I want to be the best I can and upskill) -> you have to have this personality trait



later on:

- framing like above

- you make it known that you are leveling up for her (equity/if I do it for you, I expect the same)

- when she progresses, encourage her. At all times, make her feel good about whatever is happening. She will notice this when her friends will tell her 'omg you have changed etc.' as well as her family. shift it into a team sport and you are both progressing (in womanese: our relationship is progressing). In reality, you are pulling the strings)

- when she stagnates, communicate that with her indirectly, that you both are not progressing. If she is stubborn, speak womanese and compare her to her friends, INDIRECTLY. (in womanese: is it true that Sara can make a mean roast dinner? / wow, Jessica really lost a lot of weight huh, ) + bonus points if you can compliment her friends in front of her in a semi-flirty way and handle any kind of shit test thereafter. This is the shit women stay up at night thinking about. The motivated ones do something about the. The rest, I don't know, their asses hit the curb I suppose.


Companionship/behaviour training - Direct in the beginning as it's still flirting progressing towards indirect as it can be scarring for her esteem

Sexual training - Direct always


Appearance/health training - Indirect always, find external motivation, make it a 'we' thing. Take some of the responsibility (even though it's not yours because women's egos are too fragile to bear the whole weight of it)


There's not universal guide, but these are my own experiences.

Post: #33

Mostly positive reinforcement.
Ex. I like these type of sexy dress you are wearing today. -> she will wear it more.
Ex. I like it when you are talk sexually through text -> she will do it more.

If you want to make her stop doing something, you can also do the same.
For example, you want her to stop swearing, you can say, "I like it when you use more classy words and don't swear too much." (say this on the days that she doesn't swear a lot.)

Negative reinforcements are okay, but positive reinforcements are proven to be more effective and efficient.

Post: #34

Good post by Noir. What I think his most important points are:

start demanding shit until she eventually says no. You will be surprised, how high a woman's threshold is for agreeing to shit is, when they are into you.

if you are in a negotiation, and the other side never says no, then you didn't push hard enough. you left something on the table. similarly, you have to sublty communicate your willingness to walk away from the deal, which is a segue to his next point:

- when she says no, do one of the following:

a) encourage her that it would be a good fit for her and how you like it when she does x y z. You are looking for a partner like that.

OR

b) make it known that other girls want you and that she has competition. If she thinks it's a bluff, introduce her to other girls or show her. Turn her scarcity into leverage


One thing I do is a tell new dates a mostly true story I had about a stalker. It spikes from sexy to funny to scary. They always ask why she stalked me, and I say I don't know, but she was the first woman I was able to give G spot orgasms consistently. I mention it in passing and go on with the story etc but it plants the seed that I have been super successful with women and implies I can be at the drop of a hat. None of that is technically logical but it creates the aura of strong competition in a lizard brain.

Post: #35

If they do something good, pat them on the head or rub them behind their ears while saying "that's my girl". Dead serious.

Post: #36

Had a date with a hottie last night, legit 9, half my age. Told her the stalker story. She lit up when I told her about my ability to find this girl's G-spot consistently. I added a part to the story where the stalker later confessed to me that the first weekend she met me she made a point to kiss every part of my body, and she figured out where my weakness was.

So the hottie from last night takes this bait and guesses its on my neck/shoulder. She starts kissing me there. I tell her, no, that's not it. So then she starts tounging my ear. I tell her no, that not it. I then lift up her very long hair and kiss her in this spot to show her. She reciprocated, but if she had not I would have led her.

The previous night I was with a gymnast. get her panties off and she lies on her back with her legs behind her head for me. I say no, I want you to show me how well you can suck my cock first. So she knows I get both every times, I have created that expectation.

They key is you have to start with the small things asap and course correct as early as possible. Be clear in what you want and your expectations.

Post: #37

(10-04-2017 09:34 AM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  If they do something good, pat them on the head or rub them behind their ears while saying "that's my girl". Dead serious.

"Good girl."

Post: #38

(10-13-2017 06:16 PM)DonnyGately Wrote:  

(10-04-2017 09:34 AM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  If they do something good, pat them on the head or rub them behind their ears while saying "that's my girl". Dead serious.

"Good girl."

Pet game.

Post: #39

(10-04-2017 04:30 AM)Hypno Wrote:  b) make it known that other girls want you and that she has competition. If she thinks it's a bluff, introduce her to other girls or show her. Turn her scarcity into leverage
[/b]

One thing I do is a tell new dates a mostly true story I had about a stalker. It spikes from sexy to funny to scary. They always ask why she stalked me, and I say I don't know, but she was the first woman I was able to give G spot orgasms consistently. I mention it in passing and go on with the story etc but it plants the seed that I have been super successful with women and implies I can be at the drop of a hat. None of that is technically logical but it creates the aura of strong competition in a lizard brain.

This can be as simple as telling a "girl I was hanging out with" story.

You don't present her as an ex, a plate, or anything else that fills in any blanks. Just tell a funny story that is appropriate to the situation about hanging out with someone who is described with feminine pronouns.

"So we're at her house opening this bottle of wine she said she bought in Texas, and when the cork pops, there's a weird noise, like..."

Invariably, her hamster will start running simulations, and in five minutes, she'll ask who it was and, probably, if you had sex with her. Just say "oh, she didn't matter".

"He's thinking about other women. Women he's probably banged. Shit, were her tits bigger than mine? Women like him. Women are throwaways to him. Oh God, I need to bake him something nice."

Post: #40

(10-18-2017 10:31 AM)Jetset Wrote:  

(10-04-2017 04:30 AM)Hypno Wrote:  b) make it known that other girls want you and that she has competition. If she thinks it's a bluff, introduce her to other girls or show her. Turn her scarcity into leverage
[/b]

One thing I do is a tell new dates a mostly true story I had about a stalker. It spikes from sexy to funny to scary. They always ask why she stalked me, and I say I don't know, but she was the first woman I was able to give G spot orgasms consistently. I mention it in passing and go on with the story etc but it plants the seed that I have been super successful with women and implies I can be at the drop of a hat. None of that is technically logical but it creates the aura of strong competition in a lizard brain.

This can be as simple as telling a "girl I was hanging out with" story.

You don't present her as an ex, a plate, or anything else that fills in any blanks. Just tell a funny story that is appropriate to the situation about hanging out with someone who is described with feminine pronouns.

"So we're at her house opening this bottle of wine she said she bought in Texas, and when the cork pops, there's a weird noise, like..."

Invariably, her hamster will start running simulations, and in five minutes, she'll ask who it was and, probably, if you had sex with her. Just say "oh, she didn't matter".

"He's thinking about other women. Women he's probably banged. Shit, were her tits bigger than mine? Women like him. Women are throwaways to him. Oh God, I need to bake him something nice."

Good advice! I've always tended to avoid stories about other women and just changed them to guys instead. Especially when I have other dates, I'll say im grabbing dinner with my roommate later on instead of grabbing dinner with my friend, just to play it safe.


In another note, I see this thread has really veered into a sexual tone, but I was also wondering other things. For example, I've recently met a girl that's got a super pretty face but could use some more weight / muscle to be optimal for me. She's Indian (I am too), and would be a great fit for me. So I was wondering if I should start taking her to the gym, have her start working out, etc. Obviously it will be time investment for me to enjoy the returns. So I was wondering if other forum members make these investments, or simply find a better candidate from the outset (this could actually take longer). But I also already have a decent rotation, but you never know when one becomes worth LTR'ing

Post: #41

(10-18-2017 10:31 AM)Jetset Wrote:  

(10-04-2017 04:30 AM)Hypno Wrote:  b) make it known that other girls want you and that she has competition. If she thinks it's a bluff, introduce her to other girls or show her. Turn her scarcity into leverage
[/b]

One thing I do is a tell new dates a mostly true story I had about a stalker. It spikes from sexy to funny to scary. They always ask why she stalked me, and I say I don't know, but she was the first woman I was able to give G spot orgasms consistently. I mention it in passing and go on with the story etc but it plants the seed that I have been super successful with women and implies I can be at the drop of a hat. None of that is technically logical but it creates the aura of strong competition in a lizard brain.

This can be as simple as telling a "girl I was hanging out with" story.

You don't present her as an ex, a plate, or anything else that fills in any blanks. Just tell a funny story that is appropriate to the situation about hanging out with someone who is described with feminine pronouns.

"So we're at her house opening this bottle of wine she said she bought in Texas, and when the cork pops, there's a weird noise, like..."

Invariably, her hamster will start running simulations, and in five minutes, she'll ask who it was and, probably, if you had sex with her. Just say "oh, she didn't matter".

"He's thinking about other women. Women he's probably banged. Shit, were her tits bigger than mine? Women like him. Women are throwaways to him. Oh God, I need to bake him something nice."

exactly, but take it one step further and tell them stuff they did or how they reacted to you, like stalking you, trying to win you over buying gifts, wanting to do 3somes with you, cooking dinner for you, kissing you in certain places, etc. You can make all of this up, and its great social proof/dread game.

Post: #42

(10-18-2017 03:42 PM)True Balla Wrote:  Good advice! I've always tended to avoid stories about other women and just changed them to guys instead. Especially when I have other dates, I'll say im grabbing dinner with my roommate later on instead of grabbing dinner with my friend, just to play it safe.

I just see it as an extension of preselection. A woman once explicitly told me that she'd gotten it into her head that we had to fuck because half my stories started with phrases like "...so I'm hanging out with this woman and..." and she got the idea that I knew what I was doing.

I didn't know I was doing that, and I didn't know at the time what preselection was, but now it makes sense and delivering a seemingly innocent story that hints at that with a very positive frame can clean up the LTR's behavior immediately if she's trying to test the electric fence.

Note that these are past-tense stories, but I definitely wouldn't hesitate to say "dinner with my friend". That's innocuous as shit. Let her make herself a little crazy over you.

(10-19-2017 06:49 AM)Hypno Wrote:  exactly, but take it one step further and tell them stuff they did or how they reacted to you, like stalking you, trying to win you over buying gifts, wanting to do 3somes with you, cooking dinner for you, kissing you in certain places, etc. You can make all of this up, and its great social proof/dread game.

Depends on the temperature of the woman and the conversation, but yes. I think it's often just as effective to let them try to fill in their own blanks and freak themselves out about it. A lot of women enjoy that and don't want us to spoil their hamster's adventures. You can hint at being stalked without explicitly branding the woman as a stalker, and the mental gymnastics will start automatically. Plus, plausible deniability.

Post: #43

Had a girl yesterday, after we got naked I told her I wanted her to show me how well she could blow me. I didn't say please give me a blow job. I made it a challenge. It was on OK bj, she started getting tired in the middle of it and using her hand, which was fine because it was better than her mouth. I got close and told her I was going to come, mostly because I didn't want to come in her long hair. So she immediate puts my cock back in her mouth without asking and sucked me dry. Didn't spill a drop. Now, if I had asked for a bj with a different frame I probably would not have gotten that result.

Post: #44

(11-12-2017 01:07 PM)Hypno Wrote:  Had a girl yesterday, after we got naked I told her I wanted her to show me how well she could blow me. I didn't say please give me a blow job. I made it a challenge. It was on OK bj, she started getting tired in the middle of it and using her hand, which was fine because it was better than her mouth. I got close and told her I was going to come, mostly because I didn't want to come in her long hair. So she immediate puts my cock back in her mouth without asking and sucked me dry. Didn't spill a drop. Now, if I had asked for a bj with a different frame I probably would not have gotten that result.

Interesting. I just started with a new girl I had sex with last night and got her period today. Didn't ask her for the BJ since I got the vibe she didn't want to by other indirect asks. I will use this one now