Post: #26

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(09-12-2017 06:59 PM)Fortis Wrote:  Asians are gossipy ... I once got sick and almost puked in the lobby of my apartment ... landlord called my school and told them that I should "be more careful."

Yes! A perfect example of Oriential indirectness. Thank you, Fortis, for posting that story.

We Western men value clear, direct, communication. We look down on gossip and indirect speech.

In the Orient, I have learned, it is exactly the opposite. Direct communication is considered rude and possibly threatening to the self-esteem of others ("face"). Gossip and indirect speech is the only way to "get the message across".

When some information comes to me by gossip or some other indirect route, it is a strong signal that that information is important.

----

Side note: Increasing numbers of Western men are arriving here in the Far East -- all ages -- some for long stay. Could be worthwhile to have a topic in the Travel section of this forum about "Oriental Inscrutability" or something like that. Fortis, if you decide to start such a topic, I'll probably have some stories of my own to contribute.

Post: #27

(09-12-2017 01:35 AM)Travel Museums Wrote:  God. This post sickens me. Too many girls (ones open to a foreigner anyway) in SEA are locked down by some older guy who's paying. It's perverse. But yeah it's so common it's somewhat "normal". It makes our life harder actually. Great if you're a busted expat I guess.

Fair enough now but Let's see if you feel the same way when your 60 and if you're single.

Post: #28

(09-12-2017 07:18 PM)Razors Edge Wrote:  Fair enough now but Let's see if you feel the same way when your 60 and if you're single.

Very good point.

Post: #29

(09-12-2017 07:18 PM)Razors Edge Wrote:  Fair enough now but Let's see if you feel the same way when your 60 and if you're single.

True. When you're 25 and crushing, Thailand is just another dish on the buffet line. But when you're 65 and the women your age look like Barbara Bush, then Thailand is a gourmet dinner.

Post: #30

Post: #31

Besides English Teacher, what are easiest jobs to get a work visa over there? I may be taking an early retirement (with a modest pension) but I'm not 50 year old for the Retirement Visa yet.

Post: #32

(09-12-2017 07:36 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  Besides English Teacher, what are easiest jobs to get a work visa over there? I may be taking an early retirement (with a modest pension) but I'm not 50 year old for the Retirement Visa yet.

Good question. Short answer: None.

There are a few, rare, exceptions for those with some high level of skill: surgeon, mobile phone system engineer, aircraft A&P mechanic, experienced chef at a top level hotel ... maybe.

But for the average man it's against the law for foreigners to work here.
There is a long list of occupations forbidden to foreigners.

Don't count on getting a job in Thailand.
.

Post: #33

(09-12-2017 06:55 PM)MRG1946 Wrote:  

(09-11-2017 12:25 PM)MRG1946 Wrote:  When a massage lady comes into my apartment and stays for a few hours, the neighbors won't start gossiping.

1. In a culture where direct speech is forbidden, gossip is used to inform someone that he is doing something that violates cultural norms.

2. I listen carefully to gossip that reaches me, in order to mentally "map" the gossip networks which touch me. I try to learn the inputs and outputs of those gossip networks. And I sometimes "salt" the inputs, intentionally, in order to see what comes out, where, and when. (But the actual transmission paths are unknown to me, and unknowable.)

3. I actually pay for gossip, with generous tips, as a way to encourage the locals to keep me informed of gossip (related to me) that I otherwise might not know.

4. Finally, how to I know that the neighbors won't gossip if a massage lady comes in to my apartment for a few hours? People don't gossip about what is ordinary and common. Gossip is about what is (a) strange and unusual, or (b) violates cultural values.

I'd be willing to believe that all of this is true if during your ten years in Thailand, you've become 100% fluent in Thai.

If not, I think it would be safer to consider the possibility that we Westerners have a tendency to exaggerate our knowledge of and connection with other cultures.

If I had a yuan for every time a Westerner (who was completely incapable of performing any communication beyond asking for the bill and saying hello in the local language) told me "I can understand a lot more than I can speak," I'd be wealthy enough to retire in Bangkok.

I know from my own journey of settling in Asia, that due to being incredibly out of place upon arrival (no way to avoid this, outside of Hong Kong, you'll stand out and feel out of place no matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise), I was quick to exaggerate in my own mind my familiarity with the local culture.

At that point, showing others that I could perform even simple communication tasks, such as telling the wait-staff at a restaurant how many seats we needed or asking for the bill (about all I could accomplish during my first 3 months in Beijing), was really important to my sense of identity, because without that, I was nothing more than a speechless infant from the standard of local survival skills.

Since then, as I've actually acquired some legitimate communication skills in Chinese and have accomplished other things that have been enough to not feel totally vulnerable (driving a car in Beijing traffic, finding and negotiating rental of an apartment all by myself without speaking a word of English, routinely communicating with clients who speak no English, saving some Hungarian diplomats and helping them contact and communicate with the police after they were attacked arbitrarily by some locals), I have a level of confidence in my identity and feel less of a need to prove myself to others (as well as myself).

I highly suspect, however, that if I hadn't pushed forward to learn the language, now seven years into living in Asia, I'd still be attempting to use any justification necessary to prove to myself and others how accomplished I am (because I'd probably still feel like a vulnerable infant).

As such, based on my own journey and my observations of others who have spent years here without learning to say more than a few words, I'm incredibly suspicious of any expat in Asia's claims to have special localized skills that can barely be defined and certainly cannot be proven or disproven.

Language skills, however, have proven to be a very helpful metric for determine who actually knows what the fuck they are talking about. As a comparison, imagine your reaction to a Japanese person in the USA who had plenty of detailed opinions to share about the way things are in America, but couldn't actually speak any English.

I write all this to say that as outsiders in Asia, we'd probably be best off erring on the side of caution about everything we believe we know unless we can be 99% sure of the accuracy of the belief.

Anything else and we run the risk of ending up in compromising situations OR (and possibly worse) missing out on the satisfaction that comes with actual accomplishment by not acknowledging the serious room we have for growth.

In my time in Asia, I've noted that the people who do learn to speak the local language and those who don't are two completely different breeds of people.

(It's also not unusual for people who have learned foreign languages successfully in other parts of the world, to completely fail at learning the local language in Asia. There previous experience doesn't bump them into the camp of people who have put in the effort in Asia).

In my experience, despite all of the opinions they are eager to share, the group that does not speak the local language are essentially perpetual tourists.

That being said, regardless of his local language status (the level of which I can only speculate at), a lot of his information here is very accurate and very helpful. I just hesitate to take anyone's word for it when they claim that they know with certainty the degree to which they are the target of local gossip in Asia.

I can't speak knowledgeably about Thailand, but I have some stories about gossip in China that would turn your toe-nails purple.

Post: #34

Women wise, I've never got how Thailand could be such a paradise for older men (50+). It's hard enough to get the quality girls as a decent looking, younger guy these days due to the stigma associated with foreigners. Most cute, normal girls wouldn't be seen dead walking around with an older one, because that instantly labels her as a whore to Thai society. So unless you're happy smashing Issan pros/gold digging semi pros, I don't see the appeal. From a lifestyle perspective, it could be a nice place to retire though.

Post: #35

Thais gossip like mad.

Post: #36

Post: #37

(09-12-2017 06:38 PM)MRG1946 Wrote:  .

(09-11-2017 03:00 PM)balybary Wrote:  Do you have some advices of how to handle the lies as a foreigner?

That would be very useful topic for discussion.
Knowing something about how to handle lies and scams is essential for any man traveling abroad.
Thank you, Balybary, for bringing it up here.

The topic goes far beyond just Thailand.
I think it deserves a thread of its own in the "Travel" section of this forum.
Balybary, if you decide to start such a thread, I will add some of my advices.

There is a thread called: "Asian Women and Lying in the Context of Long-term Relationships ", started by Beyond Borders. I don't have time to read this thread now, I will read it later.

/thread-39630.html

As you said, it's a big topic if you make it inclusive.

Post: #38

(09-12-2017 07:30 PM)RedBeanWarrior Wrote:  

I'd rather be this guy at 60 paying two whores than be some guy getting yelled at by his fat fuck wife while trying to watch TV.

Post: #39

I saw that picture before with the title: true love waits

Post: #40

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(09-13-2017 01:05 AM)balybary Wrote:  There is a thread called: "Asian Women and Lying in the Context of Long-term Relationships ", started by Beyond Borders.
/thread-39630.html

Thank you, Balybary. I've just skimmed some of it. Perhaps some interest in reviving the topic. Essential knowledge for Western men in Asia.

Post: #41

"I like older guy bc older guy not playboy". AHAHAHA

I've heard this from SEA girls who are dating MARRIED 70 year old foreign men.

Uh yeah. Take away his ATM card then wait and see how much she like older man.

Aren't we against P4P?

Are you actually claiming getting a girl your grandkids age isn't 100% about money?

Post: #42

It's an equal exchange for older dudes without game to get at these hoes. Just like we can tell them to shoo, as they aren't fit to be around us.

Really, I don't plan to lose my juice as an older cat, but be one of the most interesting men, but if I did I would just retire from the game with dignity. Why do you want these flies around you when they have no attraction to you, and your not even virile anymore? Some dudes just love that pussy no matter how old

Post: #43

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(09-12-2017 09:56 PM)Suits Wrote:   I'm incredibly suspicious of any expat in Asia's claims to have special localized skills that can barely be defined and certainly cannot be proven or disproven ... Language skills ... have proven to be a very helpful metric for determine who actually knows what ... they are talking about.

A valuable post with the clear voice of experience.
Thank you, Suits, for taking your time to think and to write as you did in that post.

(09-12-2017 09:56 PM)Suits Wrote:   ...we Westerners have a tendency to exaggerate our knowledge of and connection with other cultures ... people who do learn to speak the local language and those who don't are two completely different breeds ...

Well said: "completely different breeds".

And I'll add this observation: Westerners who are truly comfortable in a foreign language, speak it in a relaxed manner and at moderate volume. Those who are, shall we say, pretending, have unnaturally high pitch and louder volume.

(09-12-2017 09:56 PM)Suits Wrote:  I'd be willing to believe that all of this is true if during your ten years in Thailand, you've become 100% fluent in Thai.

Fair enough.

I do speak Thai, but only about 75%, and that only in the dialect of the educated, middle class. In the various dialects of rural peasants, I'm hopelessly lost.

I also read, write, and touch-type in Thai. One of my main retirement activities for ten years has been translating children's books from Thai to English. I'd be happy to send a sample or to post here if anyone wants to see.

(09-12-2017 09:56 PM)Suits Wrote:  ...showing others that I could perform even simple communication tasks ... was really important to my sense of identity, because without that, I was nothing more than a speechless infant from the standard of local survival skills.

Yes, indeed!

And after reading your comments about "sense of identity" I promise to be more tolerant of those of my fellow expats who are at the "speechless infant" level of language skill.

(09-12-2017 09:56 PM)Suits Wrote:  It's also not unusual for people who have learned foreign languages successfully in other parts of the world, to completely fail at learning the local language in Asia. There previous experience doesn't bump them into the camp of people who have put in the effort in Asia.

Good point and I didn't think of that, but I sure have experienced it.

Over the years I've studied Latin, French, Brazilian Portuguese, Hebrew, Tagalog, Japanese, and Strine. Also Morse Code, Fortran, COBOL, Assembler and IBM-RPG. Nothing in any of those languages prepared me for trying to learn Thai language. It easily ranks as the most difficult learning I've ever done in my life.

(09-12-2017 09:56 PM)Suits Wrote:  I have some stories about gossip in China that would turn your toe-nails purple.

Then please let me encourage you to start a thread on "Surviving Gossip in Asia".
I've learned a lot about cultural values here, from paying attention to gossip.
.

Post: #44

(09-12-2017 07:44 PM)MRG1946 Wrote:  

(09-12-2017 07:36 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  Besides English Teacher, what are easiest jobs to get a work visa over there? I may be taking an early retirement (with a modest pension) but I'm not 50 year old for the Retirement Visa yet.

Good question. Short answer: None.

There are a few, rare, exceptions for those with some high level of skill: surgeon, mobile phone system engineer, aircraft A&P mechanic, experienced chef at a top level hotel ... maybe.

But for the average man it's against the law for foreigners to work here.
There is a long list of occupations forbidden to foreigners.

Don't count on getting a job in Thailand.
.

Is it legal to start a business, such as a restaurant or retail store?

Post: #45

(09-12-2017 06:11 PM)MRG1946 Wrote:  .

(09-12-2017 01:48 PM)Svoboda Wrote:  Thai are vindictive ...

Yes, they certainly are vindictive.
Thank you, Svoboda, for bringing that out in the open on this topic.
It is important for new expats to understand.

(09-12-2017 05:38 PM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  Is that because they spend all day being nice and polite and keeping all of their frustrations bottled up until they snap?

Yes, Vladimir, your conclusion fits exactly with what I have observed: frustrations kept bottled up until they snap.

Part of the reason for that is the religion.
Part from culture of peasants growing rice: everyone must work together to plant and harvest.
If any disagreements, planting and harvesting won't get done, and some people will starve.
Then the size and strength of the village will shrink.
That's bad.
So everybody pretends to get along.
Until someone can't hold it in any longer and they "snap".

Seeing as all of the farming stuff can apply to any culture, I'd say the religion probably has more to do with it. This is one reason why I could never live in a place like Thailand. It's too much. The fakery, the obsession with money and income, everything is transactional, I frown upon all of that most thoroughly.

Post: #46

(09-13-2017 04:31 AM)Hypno Wrote:  Is it legal to start a business, such as a restaurant or retail store?

Good question.
I've been to a lawyer to ask.

1.) In general, for small, retail business such as restaurant or retail store, no, a foreigner can not get a business license.

2.) Very large businesses, such as foreign-owned factory that employees many local people, can.

3.) Export businesses, with sales of Thai-made products outside of Thailand, okay.

4.) There is a notable exception for U.S. Citizens. Many years ago Thailand and USA signed a "Treaty of Amity" that allows Americans to start certain kinds of small, retail, businesses, with specific permission from the government.

That said, some expats here do open a business in the wife's name. But, without a work permit, the expat is not allowed to work in the business at all. That's why, in many bars, you'll see the expat "owner" sitting in front of the bar, looking like a customer. Never behind the bar or in the kitchen, managing operations.

There is also the possibility -- so the lawyer explained to me -- of setting up a corporation domiciled in Thailand, and operating a small business thru that. But it requires 51% ownership in the hands of Thai citizens, something I'd never agree to.

That's the limit of my knowledge on this matter. I hope it's enough to discourage you from trying to start any kind of business in Thailand. But, if you are still keen, I can recommend a law firm that handles these kinds of questions. Better you listen to them, not me.
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Post: #47

(09-13-2017 05:01 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  I could never live in a place like Thailand. ... The fakery, the obsession with money and income, everything is transactional, I frown upon all of that most thoroughly.

Right on target!
Thank you, Vladimir.

It's taken me quite a few years of actually living in Thailand, to realize what Vladimir already knows.
Yet, I continue to live here.
Because I know of no place better.

My goal in opening this topic was not to claim that life in Thailand is perfect or even among the best.
It is only to suggest Thailand as a comfortable refuge from the insanity that has engulfed the Western World.
Any man thinking about staying in Thailand long-term would do well to carefully consider Vladimir's comments above.
.

Post: #48

Damn, lost an absolute monster of a post somehow. Shit. I'll keep things shorter this time, here's some general observations on Thailand:

-I love the grit and grime of Bangkok, the contrast of high-end luxury with litter, pollution, renovation, and disrepair. On the road in front of my hotel, there's an ad for some luxury apartments. In front of the advertisement, a Thai family has made their makeshift restaurant with the crappy cart, old grill, and plastic tables and seats. Really find the juxtaposition of that beautiful.

-Was jet-lagged as hell last night, so I stepped out of my hotel at 2 AM. Still plenty of Thais out, eating, drinking, talking, and relaxing. Love how Thais -- and SE Asians in general -- bring their lives into the streets, and keep things going well into the early morning hours.

-There's an energy, a vibe to Bangkok -- a sense that just being here is allowing you to participate in something special -- that I'll likely never tire of.

- I agree. Thailand is a good country to be old in. When I was coming home on the Skytrain a couple of hours ago, a Thai woman gave her seat up to an elderly white guy. And last night, when I was on my way from the Skytrain to the hotel, I saw an old American guy smacking his fist into his palm, gesturing obscenely to a gorgeous young Thai whore in the shadows of the Skytrain stairs. The guy was 100+ pounds overweight, sweaty, and had that balding comb over thing going on. The Thai girl was in her early 20s and hotter than any woman 97% of American men will ever fuck.

-Yes, the old dude/Isaan woman relationship is still popping off. But look closely next time you see a pair at Terminal 21. The woman isn't even pretending to mask her gloomy displeasure. She's knows she's beautiful, and she's quietly devastated that she's landed where she has. It always kind of amuses me.

I've also noticed the same thing when gorgeous Thai women are matched up with rich ugly/fat Thai guys. The Thai women don't even try to hide their disgust. Contrast that with Eastern European women, who seem completely at ease with a potbellied sugar daddy, and even seem to take pleasure in the attention that comes from being some greasy rich dude's arm candy. . .

From my vantage point, it seems like beautiful Thai women are much more aligned with American women insofar as they want their men to "have it all", whereas having the Benz and fat pockets, and having those things alone, seems to be enough for the Soviet women.

-I'm a big, hairy, and sweaty guy. Not sure I'll ever get used to the humidity in Bangkok.

-The monsoon was pouring down heavy here about an hour ago. The ceiling of the lobby of the hotel I'm staying in was leaking in several places and water was all over the floor.

One time, when I was staying up north, the city center flooded during a heavy monsoon rain storm. I walked downstairs into the lobby, only to be surprised by a half inch of water that had come into the lobby from off the street. The front desk girls were chilling behind the desk as if nothing was out of the ordinary, while a security guy decked out in rain boots and was pushing the excess water back onto sidewalk with a heavy broom.

Every time I turn the shower water heater on in my hotel, the bathroom light starts to flicker. Type A personalities are really, really gonna struggle here.

-Cambodians have big hearts, the Javanese are probably the nicest people I've ever met, but nobody is more pleasant or kinder than the Thais.

-Thais (both men/women) talk more shit about Thai women than any other group of people talking about their own people than I've ever seen. Everybody in this country has something negative to say about Thai women.

-There's a surplus of single women in Bangkok in every age group, it seems. Everything from late-20s to early 60s, all of 'em lonely, bored, and horny. This is why I'd like to grow old here if I'm still single. Tons of 'older' women in their 30s/40s/50s to choose from if you don't feel like splashing out on a younger girl.

-I'll always remember that time I was in a Patpong go-go bar and 3 nubile dancers were trying like hell to get this 80-something British grandpa hard. Try as they might, even with all of the rubbing and encouragement, the girls couldn't succeed. Enjoy it while it lasts, gentlemen.

-Every Thai working class guy I've ever met -- and Cambodian, too, for that matter -- has admitted to me that he is discreetly whoring on the side, at least every once in a while.

-I'm afraid of dogs. There are strays everywhere here.

-I love being able to get a cheap/affordably priced massage from a perky young woman or a kind-hearted matronly dame. I'm in blue collar work back home, and I'm dealing with pain in my shoulders and in the middle of my back. I'd kill to be able to go in and get loosened up before work.

-Sometimes you miss being able to drink delicious tap water out of a faucet, or not having to worry about accidentally opening your mouth in the shower. Or be concerned that the mosquito buzzing around your ankle might be carrying dengue.

-It seems like there are more Muslims in Bangkok than before. Is it just me?

-As dynamic as they are, the most beautiful Thai women are not as beautiful as the best Chinese women. Yes, there are exceptions.

Post: #49

(09-13-2017 05:01 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  This is one reason why I could never live in a place like Thailand. It's too much. The fakery, the obsession with money and income, everything is transactional, I frown upon all of that most thoroughly.

This is one reason why I left Thailand after 8 months of living there.

Post: #50

(09-12-2017 09:56 PM)Suits Wrote:  In my time in Asia, I've noted that the people who do learn to speak the local language and those who don't are two completely different breeds of people.

(It's also not unusual for people who have learned foreign languages successfully in other parts of the world, to completely fail at learning the local language in Asia. There previous experience doesn't bump them into the camp of people who have put in the effort in Asia).

In my experience, despite all of the opinions they are eager to share, the group that does not speak the local language are essentially perpetual tourists.

Learning the language, East Asians ones anyways, also always mean that some serious length of time has been spent in the country. A person could conceivable become very good at Spanish and never spend more than a few weeks at a time in Mexico, lets say. To become better than basic, ordering food Chinese, years need to be spent in China. As soon as the first words of Chinese come out of a person's mouth, the first sounds, I immediately know how much time they've put into Chinese, and more importantly, into China.

So I agree with you 100%. When I hear boisterous opinions or whatever about China from people who speak foreigner Chinese, or worse, can't speak at all, I generally make a quick exit.

As a result though, I don't have many expats friends and mostly spend my time around young Chinese girls (below 25). Its hard to find people who really understand anything in China and most of us have strong opinions. If someone toughed it out in China for 10+ years such as myself, we've generally already built our little kingdoms and have no desire to deal with others and their bullshit.