Post: #1

A little about me: mid thirties, have always had problems with fatigue. About two years ago I had a drop in libido, shortly after I bought a car (maybe because of not moving as much?) But this year it got much worse. I hardly feel any lust so I decided to have my T level checked. My interest in my hobbies had decreased a lot in 2017 too.
This comes at a surprise because this year I've been much more active than before and have been eating healthy. I've been doing 30 minutes of cardio 3-5 days a week and have been doing the Starting Strength compound lifting routine 3 days a week too. (I don't know, I guess this is still not much.)
I have a little belly fat that I've not been able to get rid of but other than that am not fat.

Am going to schedule a visit to a urologist tomorrow.

Post: #2

Sounds like you need to get on the TRT brah!

Post: #3

I might be joining the party. Seeing a urologist and got the RX for the bloodwork, just haven't had time to get it done. It has to be done between 8 am and 10 am when testosterone is highest.

Post: #4

Just get on TRT.

Post: #5

Nothing wrong with TRT. I'm on it myself. Are you getting enough D3? Either through sunlight or supplements? I'm taking 3600 IU a day as drops.

Are you waking up with boners? If not, that's a problem.

Post: #6

The easy way would be to start TRT right away and I'm totally down with it.

I just want to advise you to get it a little higher naturally with some real weight lifting for at least 6 weeks (DeadLift & Squat only) and get rid of every shitty habits you find yourself hooked on (Pot, Refined Sugar, transform food).

It might get yourself a little more points but it's the best way for TRT to have its optimum effects (from my own experience).

Post: #7

The correct thing to do is to do a Luteinising Hormone level and Follicle Stimulating Hormone level to see where the testosterone failure is coming from - the brain or the testicles.

Also, you need to be unstressed and it has to be a morning sample to get an accurate testosterone result. If you were stressed or you took the sample in the evening, then it may be a false negative.

Taking TRT may be treating the symptoms without uncovering the disease - maybe you actually have a thyroid problem, early diabetes, early kidney failure, vitamin D deficiency, etc. It's worth checking everything before jumping to conclusions. You're too young to have low testosterone. I'd dig deeper to find a cause before taking a bandaid approach.

Post: #8

(06-27-2017 06:22 AM)blck Wrote:  The easy way would be to start TRT right away and I'm totally down with it.

I just want to advise you to get it a little higher naturally with some real weight lifting for at least 6 weeks (DeadLift & Squat only) and get rid of every shitty habits you find yourself hooked on (Pot, Refined Sugar, transform food).

It might get yourself a little more points but it's the best way for TRT to have its optimum effects (from my own experience).

Good, the reason I started this thread was for advice on what I may be doing wrong in my life style.
I don't consume any refined sugar or sugary products.

Some thoughts:

1-Not walking enough/sedentary job
2-Consuming dairy products (milk and yogurt). Very recently switched to raw milk and and making kefir with it.
3-Cardio workouts?
4-Poor quality sleep. (have written about it in another thread. Will be seeing a doctor to see if I have sleep apnea.)

@blck Do you mean I do the deadlift and squat every day?
@not_dead_yet It's been a very long time I've not had morning wood.

Post: #9

Get in a gym and get active before you do anything else.

Cardio gets your blood flowing, so walk outside if you can.

Lose weight, body fat around your stomach lowers your T-levels.

Do a basic workout program, you don't need to be doing deadlifts right away.

Clean up your diet, no junk food. Eat whole foods and eat less if you are overweight.

Post: #10

Emoticons lower testosterone.

Post: #11

A test level of 234 is not going to be related to your training/dietary habits. You have a severe deficiency and you need doctor supervised testosterone replacement. Trying to get your natural testosterone higher first doesn't make much sense to me. You're going to wipe out your natural testosterone anyway and you're not doing testosterone to get jacked and maximize gains, you're doing it because you have a deficiency which is not going to be corrected enough via working out and diet to put you on par to where you optimally should be, which is floating around 800-1,000. Sorry but it's not going to happen.

Even before I started TRT, we are talking 10-15 years go, when I did cycles during football, after coming off and the extraneous testosterone had left my body and natural test was completely shut down, my levels were on par with what yours currently are 180-220. Hell, even my ex wife has a natural testosterone level of 79 which isn't that far from what yours currently is.

I know this advice is not something you want to hear, but trust me, this is going to be a blessing in disguise, you just don't realize it yet.

Post: #12

(06-27-2017 06:22 AM)blck Wrote:  I just want to advise you to get it a little higher naturally with some real weight lifting for at least 6 weeks (DeadLift & Squat only) and get rid of every shitty habits you find yourself hooked on (Pot, Refined Sugar, transform food).

Post: #13

@Hannibal Holy shit, this guy must have testosterone to sell

(06-27-2017 01:09 PM)duedue Wrote:  Good, the reason I started this thread was for advice on what I may be doing wrong in my life style.
I don't consume any refined sugar or sugary products.

Some thoughts:

1-Not walking enough/sedentary job
2-Consuming dairy products (milk and yogurt). Very recently switched to raw milk and and making kefir with it.
3-Cardio workouts?
4-Poor quality sleep. (have written about it in another thread. Will be seeing a doctor to see if I have sleep apnea.)

@blck Do you mean I do the deadlift and squat every day?
@not_dead_yet It's been a very long time I've not had morning wood.

as I already said in other threads "I know exactly what you mean" :
1) Even when training this sedentary lifestyle (+8h IT sitted) killed my mood and testosterone level due to the lack of exercices and dehumanising office work.
2) Dairy, I consume it only in cheese, never milk and rarely yogurts because it hurt in the inside. I also base my decision after reading the utlramind solution from Mark HYMAN (Excellent read)
3) Cardio Workouts not as moving around workout but more "Do-it-until-you-puke" kind of workout meaning that you gives your whole self into it.
It will put your sleep back on track, deadlift & squat will not only exhaust you to your core but also will correct your posture, straightening you and make every fibers of your posterior muscular chain works.
I insist on deadlift because it is proven that there is a connection between your brain and body (Alexander technique) and the more erect your spine is the more confident you'll be.
Heavy squattin or sled/car pushing solicit one of the bigger muscle group of the body (Legs) and increase the blood flow through your heart: Ultimate training.

Now I don't advise you to give yourself this kind of punishment every days but putting your mind into it 2 times a week and then evolve to 3 if you want and also follow the advice of LINUX, he have trained amounts of people before so he know what he's talking about, auto medication is not always the greatest solution.

Post: #14

Duedue, here's my take on your situation and what I've done being in a similar situation. There's good advice to consider here, but I would strongly recommend you not jump on TRT. Thomas the Rhymer has the best suggestion - you need more testing done to know what's really going on. I did that a few years ago when I felt not like the man I used to be and traced the sources...

Me: early 40s. I don't have an IT job but I am at a computer easily 6-8 hours a day and don't necessarily have to go outside or do much walking in the course of my day. Not super-stressful but it's my own business so things can flare up and calm down depending on the customer I'm working with and seasonal demand. Two years ago I was feeling fairly lethargic, was about 20 lb overweight (not horrible but not great), and not sleeping well. Digestion was bad (runs often) and had acne like a late-teenager. The previous year I was so stressed out (and not taking well enough care of myself) that I developed shingles. Yes, shingles! Didn't know what the hell was happening with these painful blisters / pimples on my chest. That was a major wake-up call and I got my levels tested a few months after I recovered.

My labs:

TSH 2.96 (0.45-4.5 uIU/mL)
Thyroxine (T4) 8.1 (4.5-12.0 ug/dL)
T3 uptake 25 (24-39%)
Free thyroxine index 2.0 (1.2-4.9)
Testosterone, Serum 293 (348-1197 ng/dL) LOW
Free Testosterone (Direct) 9.1 (6.8-21.5 pg/mL)
Thyroxine (T4), direct, free, S 1.13 (0.82-1.77 ng/dL)
DHEA-Sulfate 100.8 (102.6-416.3 ug/dL) LOW
Luteinizing Hormone (LH) 2.8 (1.7-8.6 mIU/mL)
FSH, Serum 4.2 (1.5-12.4 mIU/mL)
Estradiol 16.7 (7.6-42.6 pg/mL)
PSA 2.2 (0.00-4.0 ng/mL)
IGF-1 177 (83-233 ng/mL)
Estradiol, sensitive 16.0 (8.0-35.0 pg/mL)
Triiodothyronine, free, serum 3.2 (2.0-4.4 pg/mL)

other blood work was nominally fine, other than RDW which was 16.1 (nominal 12.3-15.4%). My lipid panel was:

Cholesterol, total 247 (range is largely politicized bullshit, but excess LDL and TriG are bad, units mg/dL)
Triglycerides 90 (0-149 mg/dL)
HDL cholesterol 44 (> 39 mg/dL)
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 18 (5-40 mg/dL)
LDL Cholesterol Cal 185 (0-99 mg/dL) HIGH

Thomas the Rhymer, I appreciate any feedback you may want to offer on these (though they're not current). I believe the wheat, dairy, and sugar were the main dietary culprits in the poor readings.

What I took from the testing and how I felt was the low T and low DHEA supported what I was feeling - sort of tapped out on desire, motivation, and vitality. I *felt* like an early 40's man who was over the hill and I didn't like it. Exact cause may not have been clear but stress, poor sleep, and more frequent-than-ideal dairy and wheat consumption were key contraindications.

What did I do? I was following MikeCF's work both here and on Gorillamindset.com. I liked that he documented results of everything he did, which did include TRT for a period, but he decided to go off it and do natural testosterone enhancement. He mentioned the importance of posture on testosterone and I would stand or walk with my hands over my head or at my hips. Look up the TED talk by Amy Cuddy on body language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-_Mh1QhMc

I began to research HGH (did some supplementation for a couple months but honestly couldn't say if it was working or mostly placebo). However, I did follow some cool recommendations on improving HGH with diet which you can see here:

http://thebodyw.wwwls8.a2hosted.com/dr-m...naturally/

I focused more on mindful and rhythmic breathing - a great talk and very important, ties in with posture and overall mindset:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRItG9G1rb4

I began to move more, started biking several days a good, did weights but every other day to let myself rest. I felt I was physically exhausted a lot of the time and intuited that heavy lifting wasn't what I really needed. I had to get my body back to a neutral point before I could start to stress it with demanding exercise. Others may differ, but while I loved sports in my teens and mid-20s, I noticed I could injure myself more easily in my 30s and that kept me from working out.

I recently (a year ago) came across Art de Vany's comments on Mark's Daily Apple. I don't have direct links, but Art is a big fan of natural exercise, compound movements like jumping, climbing, etc. It's more about playing than just working out cause honestly just doing gym stuff bores the hell out of me. I did some tennis, some running, some biking, took a social dance class (salsa) which also put me in touch with more women, and I had fun! I shifted my mood which was the #1 factor that was depressing me. I also paid serious attention to supplementation and eliminating foods that would harm my body. I looked at the synergy of supps like vitamin D3 & K2, adding in powerful anti-oxidants, getting regular CMT-level massage (1 hour about once a week), getting my feet on bare earth / grass (where safe to not step in dog shit) or to use a grounding strap when I slept for better regulation of natural inflammatory response.

I've given up coffee entirely (took a while, but I weaned myself off my 1-cup-a-day to none). I don't need coffee and I felt it was also screwing with my recovery and sleep patterns. I don't drink much alcohol, maybe a half glass of wine or beer every week. I was juicing and REALLY felt the beets were turning up my libido (can overdo it and get kidney stones if you're not careful so keep that in mind). I definitely knew the heavy cream in my coffee or cheese was affecting my digestion, and wheat was the worst offender. Watch 'Wheat: the UNhealthy whole grain' by Dr. William Davis.

The struggle with dairy took a while but I finally decided to drop it entirely. It took a month but I swear just that one change helped me drop maybe 8-10 lb! Digestion was VASTLY improved (another level of improvement over when I dropped wheat/gluten). I'm a blood type O and enough anecdotal evidence exists to support the 'blood type diets.' I thrive on meat, seafood, rice, some vegetables, some fruits. Also if you have any indigestion look into FODMAPS (don't recall what abbreviation means) but essentially certain substances can cause high gas production due to fermentation in the intestines. Some fibrous fruits / veggies and things like onion and garlic are FODMAPS. A few important other changes were to really do a 'mindset shift' on getting to sleep earlier, 'Go to sleep early and Thrive!' where at the beginning I had tell myself 'Stay up late and DIE!' Both mantra or mottos had their place, when I had to kick myself in the ass and no happy platitudes would do it.

I have to send a big shout out to the 'zinc made me a better man' thread which is a wealth of information. I know when I do either 3 capsules of ZMA (zinc magnesium vitamin B6) before bed, and/or an L-Opti-zinc (30mg, IIRC) with my late morning/early afternoon first meal, I feel really vigorous and vital. In fact, I sometimes have to relieve the tension during the day. While my loads were more liquid and weak during my verified low-T period, they are more what I expect. Not intending TMI, but I both feel and see a difference. Having 50 or 100% more vitality than I do right now would be really distracting. I'm no super-stud but I'm very happy I didn't do TRT, and have focused on correcting any underlying stressful behaviors and then adding the substances my body needs to be a vital man. Oh, and staying away from estrogenic compounds (Roosh started a thread on this) including refusing most printed receipts or asking them to be emailed if I need them (or can snap a pic with my phone). I guard what I put in my body and that also includes injections that would ostensibly help but would make me dependent on them.

I haven't had my levels tested again but I feel like I did in my late 20s/early 30s. I dropped about 15 lb, with very mild weight training and fairly regularly daily 30-45 min walks. I also styled my hair more like I had in my 20s (medium length, longer) and keep shaved most of the time so I look/feel younger as I want to attract women of legal dating age. I've gotten more attention and am going to be moving in a few months to a southern state where there are more women I'll be able to date/engage with (am in Kommifornia right now).

While I could certainly get more jacked, I figure I'd rather not start a habit that I'd need to maintain for however many decades I might have on this planet.

Major thanks to all on this forum who have helped guide me - without RVF I wouldn't feel as positive and good about myself and my life as I do.

Post: #15

While reading up on this topic I stumbled on this excellent podcast where a bunch of doctors discuss low testosterone.

The discussion does get a bit technical, so you may want to brush up on your male physiology knowledge before listening to it.

If you want to educate yourself on low testosterone (hypogonadism) and its causes and treatment, this is a great listen.

The podcast can be found here:
http://thecurbsiders.com/show-notes/podc...-episode-1

Post: #16

LINUX is right. I can tell I've had the psychological signs of low T (such as avoiding confrontation) since my teenage years. Also I've noticed that the way random people react to me has changed for the worse in the last couple of years and I won't be surprised if it has to do with lower levels of T. But of course there is nothing wrong with taking care of my diet and working out. Will be seeing the urologist next week.

Post: #17

Make sure you fast before the blood tests. My endo drew blood after I had breakfast and my T was 150 points higher and as a result he doesn't want to give me a scrip. I'm going to have it redone but its a big waste of time.

Post: #18

The insurance company wanted three testostrone tests to be performed (all blood tests done in the morning) and here are the results of the last two:

2nd: T: 434, Free T: 15.2, Follice stimulating hormone: 6.6, Luteinizing hormone: 2.4, prolactin: 7.2,


3rd: T: 390, Free T: 14.9


I was fasting for the second but not for the 3rd. So I won't be getting TRT. Now I'm more happy than sad. Got a Cialis sample to try for my erectile dysfunction but no remedy was offered for my low libido.
Seems the reasons behind my low T readings are: insomnia, (hereditary) anemia, anxiety and not getting enough action.

Post: #19

Your levels are within fluctuation for natural test.

You still have low T for your mid 30s.

Post: #20

I know but CDC has recently decreased the normal range to 264-916. I think if I can cure my insomnia and continue working out I may be able to bring it to 500s.

Post: #21

Cdc reduced the lower range because testosterone in men is falling over time. Don't compare yourself to today's range. Compare yourself to the range of 30, or even 50 years ago. Find a reference range from the 1950s. I guarantee it's higher than today's range.

Testosterone levels are absolute values.

Post: #22

I know this of course. Called the doctor and told him I wanted to get Testosterone without insurance coverage. I was told since two of my tests were above the minimum level, per FDA regulations they couldn't prescribe. Sounds like bullshit to me but then what could I have done. I'll see another doctor in another town and in the meanwhile will try to bring it up naturally.

Post: #23

Guys, T is on its way to me and I'm going to have it on Tuesday. While the urologist told me two of my tests were in the normal range, the endocrinologist from the "anti aging clinic" told me my T levels were like those of a 70 year old. While I'm waiting to receive it I can't stop thinking: is it going to change my life??????????? I've had a lot of problems that seem to have resulted from, or at least related to, low T:

Fatigue: a very serious problem. It sometimes even looks weird to other people. It affects almost everything from conversational agility to being steady in any pursuit to being sociable.

Low sex drive and being indecisive with girls: while my libido used to be high, one thing that always baffled me was why I usually wasn't decisive even when talking to a girl I liked. It was like I expected her to make the moves. Now my libido is 0.1 on a 0-100 scale.

Decreased ambition (read: dopamine)

Moodiness, "irritable male syndrome": a result of low T and high stress hormones

Shyness, timidity, passive-aggressiveness


The main difficulty to accepting that I needed TRT was getting over the "why me" question and realizing that without it my life may well go down the drain. The low T/libido/energy has progressed with a mysterious insomnia that nothing seems to be able to help it. I used to think that the latter is the cause of the former but it may be the other way around.
I know that a medicine cannot solve all my problems and I need to work on various aspects of my life (fitness, money, game, mindset, etc) but even if it can only improve my fatigue problem that will make a huge difference.

Post: #24

Just wanted to add that Jay Campbell's excellent book "The Definitive TRT MANual" can be downloaded for FREE or purchased for FREE (just pay $8.95 shipping).

It's a quick easy read that also explains TRT in no-BS fashion.

I highly recommend reading this (or at least ONE TRT book) before even seeing a doctor.

Book: http://www.trtrevolution.com/book/

PDF: http://www.trtrevolution.com/pdf/

Post: #25

I am still trying to figure out natural ways to boost testo by significant amounts WITHOUT taking TRT.

Seems like true defeat by subjecting to TRT. A shortcut. At least this is the way I perceive it. Plus, who wants to monitor the levels all the time with regular blood tests and keep estrogen from rising?

Sounds like too much work and a life sentence.