Post: #26

My aim wasnt to win the debate, but to maintain a defensive position and feel out my opponents arguments. There will be time for winning later if I wish to pursue it.

My family and mostly all my friends are Muslim, most of my potential business customers may be Muslim, so I need to be careful not to antagonise these people too much otherwise there could be negative consequences for me.

Post: #27

< Yeah - spiritual people who actively try to become in tune with the inner force have plenty of those experiences you describe about your granddad.

Of course I have no idea about God and most people unless being extremely far advanced have not experienced with this.

The reason why I am certain that IT is something akin to immense love and power is because I have experienced this sound-force that I would call the Voice of God. Though I would not discuss God much, because I have no experiences. Most religion founders likely did not have direct experience with God except the very highest of saints (only the rarest of them being religion founders).

As for some religions claiming that God loves Arabs Muslims or their own tribe the most, because they cut out the hearts of their poor every day - well that is of course in the category of pure bullshit. If there is a GOD, then we can be absolutely sure that IT is not anything like that. Also if it is truth you should be able to transplant your ideology to every lifeform on every planet in the universe. Your spiritual or religious ideology should make sense to the caveman, to the amoeba like sentient creature on Alpha Centuri and to the insect-evolved species highly intelligent species in some distant galaxy.

As a final note - most people have the desire to believe in something as they cannot remain nihilistic. That is why the abject materialists and some atheists turn towards utopia in the here and now - usually something devolving into marxist bullshit that ignores human nature and ushers in another genocidal totalitarian dictatorship - also this is not something that happens without coincidence. When there is no higher purpose, then it does ethically matter whether you rape women, slaughter children and become a serial killer - you are identical to a saint in cosmic terms, since there is no meaning to life anyway. The ultimate end-goal of abject materialist atheism is that you eat models alive and have cannibalistic lunches, because .... well because you can.

Post: #28

(05-15-2017 06:49 AM)kavi Wrote:  My aim wasnt to win the debate, but to maintain a defensive position and feel out my opponents arguments. There will be time for winning later if I wish to pursue it.

My family and mostly all my friends are Muslim, most of my potential business customers may be Muslim, so I need to be careful not to antagonise these people too much otherwise there could be negative consequences for me.

You should not debate them at all - if you continue, then there will be negative feedback to you or your family. This is not worth it. You can have those debates with Christians and if you want to do it with Muslims, then better do it online unless you are insulated from their wrath, very rich etc.

Post: #29

(05-15-2017 02:43 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  Always found interesting how spiritual experiences seem to avoid atheists. If that didn't happen, they would at least have a doubt in their belief system, but otherwise they have "perfect" explanation for them. "I didn't experience anything, so there is no such thing as paranormal, spiritual, etc."

Well, that's sort of a chicken-and-egg scenario: if an atheist doubts his affirmative that there is no God, he is by definition no longer an atheist. And it doesn't take extensive Google searches to start finding any number of former atheists who did have such a supernatural experience, promptly abandoned their atheism, and pursued religious belief.

(05-15-2017 06:44 AM)kavi Wrote:  Actuallyy I have had experiences that I would call 'spiritual'.

However, that doesnt mean I accept I specific type of God exists (one which has not even been defined).

I had a dream of my granddad and myself in a hot air balloon, going up to the sky and having fun, at one point my grandad really turned up the heat and the balloon accelerated up really fast and I became scared. For some reason I fell out and hit the ground and felt I had died. I mean I really felt I had died, but it was not a bad feeling, maybe even a good one. When I woke up and saw my mum she told me her father in India had passed away that night.

Well, that was a nice little experience, but does it mean there is a god, I wouldnt draw that conclusion yet.

Nobody would expect you to. You didn't see God. You had an experience which you're plainly uncomfortable with labelling as supernatural ... that said, given the antecedents you describe the experience having, if you hold it to be more than coincidence that your grandfather died at the same/proximate moment to you having a dream about him containing elements associated with ascent to an afterlife or higher plane of existence, then you are implicitly asserting you witnessed or were part of something that does not hold to our understanding of physics, either at the classical or quantum level.

It seems to me one is left in rather a quandary if one is not prepared to acknowledge the event as supernatural. You are then left to either acknowledge the event is not possible in the physical universe (in which case there was no significance to your dream at all) or acknowledge the event was possible in the physical universe by some law of physics as yet unknown.

The problem with the latter approach is that it basically is the atheist/scientific version of the God of the Gaps fallacy, i.e. "I cannot explain why this event occurs in contradiction to the laws of physics, but science explains it all in some way, and I'm sure somewhere down the line that explanation will be apparent." ...

... in the same way as uneducated religious believers mount a retreat from scientifically explainable aspects of the physical universe to maintain that God is still controlling those parts that we have yet to explain - thus the God of the gaps in our knowledge. "God commands the Sun to rise and set!" "No it's not, that's the movement of planetary bodies." "Well, God still manages how bright the Sun shines!" etc.

(05-15-2017 06:44 AM)kavi Wrote:  For me, Atheism just means it is only valid to talk about things that are well-defined and make sense. Talking about a non-defined vague notion of God doesnt make sense as it can lead to all sorts of nonesense conclusion. As an Atheist the main thing we discuss things that make sense and are well-defined.

If someone says God is the Universe, then fine, but what purpose does the word God fulfill if Universe and God are one and the same. Then, there is no God, but only Universe, and you are an Atheist.

If you want to discuss God, then fine, it must a specific and sufficiently well-defined thing for it be discussed. If you say there is 'something else' then that could be anything, even some part of the physical that we dont know about, so that 'something' should not be equated with God, but with the Universe.

That's not atheism. That's in essence the discipline of philosophy as a whole (which, paradoxically, most atheists with a capital A are pretty shit at, see Richard Dawkins as Exhibit A). Bertrand Russell in his History makes a nice summary of the subject in his introduction.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #30

I think Zelcorpion is right. If you still want to keep pursuing this kind of dialog with Ali and other muslims, be cautious. Not only could it cause bitter feelings against your family from the broader muslim community, but it could cause all sorts of bitter feelings within your family.

The belief that the universe itself is divine is called pantheism. There is a difference between pantheism and atheism. Pantheists believe the universe is God. Some pantheists hold the view that each particular thing is itself a god or a part of god, so animals, plants, and other inanimate things can be objects of worship. Jainism is a pantheist religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

Post: #31

Pantheism is wrong because it creates a non-entity God. It's just a question of definitions. There is no difference between a Pantheist and an Atheist. Pantheism exists because people want to be part of a religion, hence do not refer to themselves as Atheist.

I see Pantheists and Atheists as the same unless someone can tell what the difference is. Whether you call the Universe divine or not it doesnt make a difference, it is just a meaningless label.

Post: #32

(05-15-2017 02:12 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  Little exercise able to cure every atheist: OUT OF BODY TRAVEL.

Estimated time until your first experience: 1-2 hours daily for 30-90 days.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Learned-Soul-...157043056X

No belief in it necessary - and remember just one experience would instantly invalidate all theories of no higher Soul existing. Sure - that experience would not prove the existence of God, but it would certainly give you room for pause since you would know then that you are not this body. If you are Soul then maybe there is more to life than just matter and blackness of death.

Will only work on the rational atheists.

The irrational ones will just say, hmm, I learned a new skill, or I explored an area of the brain I didn't know about before, or whatever.

The problem is that people start with articles of faith, things they need to believe to cope with life, and then build scaffolding of thought to support them.

This human tendency doesn't apply only to believers.

Post: #33

Isn't it funny how many "science fuck yeah" atheists seem to be oblivious to how many scientists have actually dabbled in occult and believed in supernatural.

Post: #34

(05-15-2017 02:35 PM)loremipsum Wrote:  Isn't it funny how many "science fuck yeah" atheists seem to be oblivious to how many scientists have actually dabbled in occult and believed in supernatural.

I've seen scientists that believe in God, sure. I've also seen Christians that believe in science and the Big Bang.

Unless any of us lived 13.4 billion years ago, there's really no way for any of us to know for sure. I think that the Big Bang Theory is a hard sell personally. Everything in the universe was condensed into a Singularity smaller than an atom?

But it's no stranger of a concept than there's an old man with a white beard that has always existed and had no creator. He was just always there and one day decided to speak, "Let there be light" and suddenly there was a universe. What did God do in all the other trillions of years that surely existed in eternity before he had the bright idea to create a universe to entertain Him? He must have been very bored sitting there in nothingness by himself. So you're God and have infinite knowledge and wisdom and you're bored, but it takes you until 13 billion years ago to realize you can create a universe to entertain you?

There's so many questions I have about God that no one can ever answer. If we're created in His image, does God have hair on his ass? Does God think Taco Bell is shitty? Does God laugh when he watches Melissa McCarthy dressed as Sean Spicer? Does God get mad at the neighbor's dogs when they bark all goddamn day like is happening to me right now?

Post: #35

(05-12-2017 07:01 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  No one would accuse anyone of being a devout religious faith in not believing in the Easter bunny.

This is a really awful argument. If you believe in the caricature of God as a magic fairy who grants wishes, then likening God to the Easter Bunny would be fine.

Problem is, the greatest philosophers and theologians have never conceived of God as some sort of magical wish-granting being. The God of classical theism is so ontologically different from the Easter Bunny that comparing the two bespeaks intellectual dishonesty.

Post: #36

(05-15-2017 02:56 PM)BrewDog Wrote:  But it's no stranger of a concept than there's an old man with a white beard that has always existed and had no creator. He was just always there and one day decided to speak, "Let there be light" and suddenly there was a universe. What did God do in all the other trillions of years that surely existed in eternity before he had the bright idea to create a universe to entertain Him? He must have been very bored sitting there in nothingness by himself. So you're God and have infinite knowledge and wisdom and you're bored, but it takes you until 13 billion years ago to realize you can create a universe to entertain you?

There's so many questions I have about God that no one can ever answer. If we're created in His image, does God have hair on his ass? Does God think Taco Bell is shitty? Does God laugh when he watches Melissa McCarthy dressed as Sean Spicer? Does God get mad at the neighbor's dogs when they bark all goddamn day like is happening to me right now?

I don't believe in God as a man with a white beard, so I have no issue with disbelief in that depiction. St. Augustine said that it's meaningless to ask what God did before the creation, simply because time didn't really exist.

And no, I don't believe that we're the spitting image of God, so I think that's kind of a joke response.

Post: #37

Recently I am thinking about idea that universe is virtual simulation being run on computer that is not from this dimension (Astral Reality).
One Croatian yogi has talked a lot about this idea in the recent years. There is one very interesting statement from him regarding size and how old universe is.

You can play Skyrim or Witcher 3 and by exploring its universe you see that there are old buildings, beings and monuments that other characters and books say predate you/them for hundreds of years. Characters in these games experience world that is to them thousands of years old, but in fact, game has been made over the couple of years in a developer studio.

So if you use that reference, if universe is computer simulation, it could really be created in instant, in its full size but with appearance to us that its 14 billions year old and big bang was simply start of the simulation.

Post: #38

(05-15-2017 03:27 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  if universe is computer simulation, it could really be created in instant, in its full size but with appearance to us that its 14 billions year old and big bang was simply start of the simulation.

I'm convinced this may be the truth of our existence. Which goes back to my statement that maybe God is us.

Do you believe that it's possible that one day, say 500 or 1000 years from now computers will be so powerful that a Sim inside a simulation may perceive his virtual world as so real that he wouldn't realize he was in a simulation? I believe it's possible. I even think it likely.

If you agree that's it possible, then couldn't the operator (we'll call him "God) run billions of simulations at once? He could just put them on fast forward and simulate billions of years while he's out to the grocery store. That would explain why God doesn't seem to care much about human suffering. It's because he's buying beer at Kroger.

If this is possible, is it then more likely that we're one of billions of sim societies? Or is it more likely that we are the one civilization that will one day invent it first?

Post: #39

Looks like we've entered the twilight zone

I'm not sure it's healthy living your life thinking it could all be a computer simulation.

Post: #40

(05-15-2017 03:55 PM)kavi Wrote:  Looks like we've entered the twilight zone

I'm not sure it's healthy living your life thinking it could all be a computer simulation.

Is it healthy thinking that this life is just temporary and one day we'll all be in heaven for eternity? Or is it healthier and more productive to realize that this is your only shot to enjoy as much as you can and to make the best of it while you're here?

Post: #41

(05-15-2017 03:49 PM)BrewDog Wrote:  

(05-15-2017 03:27 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  if universe is computer simulation, it could really be created in instant, in its full size but with appearance to us that its 14 billions year old and big bang was simply start of the simulation.

I'm convinced this may be the truth of our existence. Which goes back to my statement that maybe God is us.

Do you believe that it's possible that one day, say 500 or 1000 years from now computers will be so powerful that a Sim inside a simulation may perceive his virtual world as so real that he wouldn't realize he was in a simulation? I believe it's possible. I even think it likely.

If you agree that's it possible, then couldn't the operator (we'll call him "God) run billions of simulations at once? He could just put them on fast forward and simulate billions of years while he's out to the grocery store. That would explain why God doesn't seem to care much about human suffering. It's because he's buying beer at Kroger.

If this is possible, is it then more likely that we're one of billions of sim societies? Or is it more likely that we are the one civilization that will one day invent it first?

Or maybe God allowed us to invent computer simulations so we might have a distant, over simplified idea of what his life is like.

Post: #42

Careful. Digital world has consequences. The ordered argument is at 14:32

Post: #43

(05-15-2017 04:23 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(05-15-2017 03:49 PM)BrewDog Wrote:  

(05-15-2017 03:27 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  if universe is computer simulation, it could really be created in instant, in its full size but with appearance to us that its 14 billions year old and big bang was simply start of the simulation.

I'm convinced this may be the truth of our existence. Which goes back to my statement that maybe God is us.

Do you believe that it's possible that one day, say 500 or 1000 years from now computers will be so powerful that a Sim inside a simulation may perceive his virtual world as so real that he wouldn't realize he was in a simulation? I believe it's possible. I even think it likely.

If you agree that's it possible, then couldn't the operator (we'll call him "God) run billions of simulations at once? He could just put them on fast forward and simulate billions of years while he's out to the grocery store. That would explain why God doesn't seem to care much about human suffering. It's because he's buying beer at Kroger.

If this is possible, is it then more likely that we're one of billions of sim societies? Or is it more likely that we are the one civilization that will one day invent it first?

Or maybe God allowed us to invent computer simulations so we might have a distant, over simplified idea of what his life is like.

Maybe our computer simulation allowed us to invent God to explain all the things we don't understand.

Post: #44

(05-15-2017 04:26 PM)The Gooz Boos Wrote:  Careful. Digital world has consequences. The ordered argument is at 14:32

I like Decaprio's quote at the end.

"Dreams. They feel real when we're in them, right? The only time we notice anything strange is when we wake up."

Post: #45

(05-15-2017 03:55 PM)kavi Wrote:  Looks like we've entered the twilight zone

I'm not sure it's healthy living your life thinking it could all be a computer simulation.

Well - it is a very realistic live-action simulation with actual matter, so if your body dies, then your current existence ends. You get a new body, but that takes time again.

In a way it is both dead-serious while still being not as bad to die.



Whatever attitude works best for you in this life to motivate you to lead an eventful life is good enough.

Either way - I don't think that belief has anything to do with reality. The laws of divine nature must be absolute like gravity. An atheist who behaves ethically and lives a decent life will always be a better being than a Muslim or Christian who kills people in the name of God (while not defending himself or serving in war [though war gets a bit tricky, because there are variations in that in terms of choice and evil committed there]).

Post: #46

(05-15-2017 04:29 PM)BrewDog Wrote:  Maybe our computer simulation allowed us to invent God to explain all the things we don't understand.

I was afraid someone would say that.

Post: #47

(05-15-2017 03:05 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(05-12-2017 07:01 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  No one would accuse anyone of being a devout religious faith in not believing in the Easter bunny.

This is a really awful argument. If you believe in the caricature of God as a magic fairy who grants wishes, then likening God to the Easter Bunny would be fine.

I wasn't comparing the two supernatural deities as similar.

I was making two points:

1) there is equal evidence (for and against) of the existence of both

2) To not have faith in the existence of the Bunny is not a "blind faith" or a "religion of bunny atheism" - it's just a rational, logical position to have, given the evidence.

Thats the same as non belief in any god/supernatural entity of your choice.

You need faith to have a religion, you don't need faith to be an atheist. Being an atheist is not a religion.

It really pisses me off when people describe atheists as cultists or non rational people who "believe in nothing" etc etc I find it hilarious that people think not having faith in the bunny is sensible but not having faith in Oden/Jesus is "blind ignorant cultish ignorance".

Post: #48

(05-14-2017 09:43 PM)The Gooz Boos Wrote:  Saying that you only believe in one less god than I do is an easy-going trivialization of the distinction between theism and atheism, but it's neither that simple nor that trivial. If there exists no deity whatsoever, that has tremendous impacts on the nature of being, on ethics, on meaning, on purpose, on epistemology, on history. The differences in what is implied by theism and atheism are profound, and that is why it is so important, to me at least, to settle this question with maximum certainty.

Its a useful tool to help you escape your cultural/religious programming.

The fact that there have been thousands of different religions since man could communicate his imagination, coupled with the religion you currently subscribe to is a random product of the time, place and dominant culture you were born into, it ample evidence that its all just made up.

If you can dismiss thousands of other religions, gods, cults, demigods or wack job creationist myths so easily, I wonder why it is you can't just reject one single one more. It's not much of a leap. I want you to really think about that deeply.

I agree the big questions of the universe, matter time and energy are vast, awe inspiring and deeply stimulate our curiosity.

Sad reality is, we are just apes looking out into space with melted sand. We have come a long way in understanding how things work, but there is so much left to learn, and probably so much beyond our ability and capacity to learn.

Subscribing to a theory of a chariot dragging the sun around the world each day is an understandable reaction to the unknown, but its time to reach a higher level of rational enquiry and be comfortable with the unknowns.

Religion has been a great hand hold allowing us to drag ourselves out of the caves and dark times, to ease our fears of the unknown.

But like any handhold, you have to let it go if you want to climb higher.

Post: #49

Quote:the religion you currently subscribe to is a random product of the time, place and dominant culture you were born into

Do you see that this is a circular argument? The only reason why I would accept this idea is if I already agreed with you that my religion is false. Otherwise, Christianity is based on real things God did.

Quote:Its a useful tool to help you escape your cultural/religious programming.

I was an atheist and through philosophy concluded that God exists. Am I programmed?

Quote:If you can dismiss thousands of other religions, gods, cults, demigods or wack job creationist myths so easily, I wonder why it is you can't just reject one single one more. It's not much of a leap. I want you to really think about that deeply.

Philosophy gives me reason not to believe in the gods of the other religions. Pagan gods are physical beings and are subject to change and death. Even Ahura Mazda (the zoroastrian Iranian titan of wisdom) is subject to change and death, and zoroastrianism is monotheistic. Philosophy does not give me reason to doubt the Christian God.

Post: #50

(05-15-2017 09:01 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  It really pisses me off when people describe atheists as cultists or non rational people who "believe in nothing" etc etc I find it hilarious that people think not having faith in the bunny is sensible but not having faith in Oden/Jesus is "blind ignorant cultish ignorance".

Again, Odin and the Norse gods are completely ontologically different from the God of classical theism, so your attempts to compare them don't work.

I think intelligent people can hold to atheism or a religious faith, adhering to one doesn't make one more (or less) intelligent than another.