Post: #1

RVF,

After a short but difficult life I'm turning to the only place I trust for masculine advice. I'm mid 20's and I've gone through a bunch of sales job without much satisfaction or real money, ended up in software sales making pretty good cash. I feel like I'm limited in the tech industry without technical knowledge, and I was recently laid off from my six figure sales job. I've decided to "go back to school" for programming/software development (without any knowledge of the subject), and I've come across a few options:

1. Attend "bootcamp" at General Assembly in NYC for front end development. I've heard that this is the McDonalds of developer bootcamps, and that jobs aren't really guaranteed from it. Cost of the bootcamp is about $13k, plus at least $2/mo in living costs, so roughly $20k total cost over 3 months. Current rent $1600 in NYC. I'd have to commit 70/hrs a week + learn more on the side in order to become competitive.

2. Slug it out, take another unfulfilling sales job and learn code on the side. I'd have to interview over the next 1-2 months for a job that I know I probably won't keep, and learn code for about 5-10 hours a week that I can muster.

3. Fuck it, sell my shit, move to Thailand to learn code on my own. This is the most appealing option to me. I would like to eventually attend a bootcamp, but a more selective and prestigious one such as FullStack that can guarantee six figure employment. Budget is obviously the number one concern, second being learning code on my own. I'd learn through codeacademy.com, dedicate 10 hours a day, fuck girls on the weekends. Finances right now:

$10k liquid
$5k stocks (being liquidated)
$3-4k scrap gold (being liquidated)
Company owes me about $15k in wages and commissions.
Unemployment, if I qualify, could give me $2400/mo for 13 weeks.
Paid off car which I'm not willing to sell due to sentimental reasons/safety net if I become homeless.

End goal would be a software development/sales engineering/technical sales/IT consultant role where my job skills are in high demand.

I'm leaning towards the third option, but would love to hear experiences of living in Thailand, budget, whether I can supplement with English teaching, etc. I'm pissed that I didn't save enough, but now is the time to make a move. Would also love to hear IT professionals guide me towards the right certifications (AWS, Azure, Google Cloud) that could lead me to a technical sales position in the future.

How feasible is it to live 3-12 months in Thailand and learn enough IT to become competitive in the market? Can I live on $1k monthly? The goal is to become competent at an IT job, not party/fuck girls.

Post: #2

Trying to diligently study IT in an environment that throws an abundance of cheap living, poon and partying at you is an uphill battle. Likely it'll become an extended vacation. If you can power through it and maintain discipline you're a better man than many on this forum that have been sucked in by Thailand.

Post: #3

(05-10-2017 03:14 AM)Vicious Wrote:  Trying to diligently study IT in an environment that throws an abundance of cheap living, poon and partying at you is an uphill battle. Likely it'll become an extended vacation. If you can power through it and maintain discipline you're a better man than many on this forum that have been sucked in by Thailand.

You make a good point, but the primary factor here is cost. My overhead is gigantic ($1600/mo rent, plus american luxuries, plus $13k for a dev bootcamp)

Post: #4

I vote for the Thailand option, but Vicious is spot on, its going to take iron discipline to clock the 40 hours a week to fast track yourself into a developer.

And with all that poon and party out the front door....

Many a good man has fallen prey to Thailand's charms... Me especially.

Post: #5

Hi Graft,

I think I may be uniquely situated to answer some of your questions and help you make a more informed decision. I am a full-time instructor at one of the larger coding bootcamps. I started coding 3 years ago and graduated as a student at said bootcamp.

Here's my advice:

(1) It's highly unlikely that you will teach yourself enough code to land a job.

Learning to code is hard, and bootcamps give you a structure and path to learn the material. They also show you how people are putting code to productive uses, and help you connect the dots between the language and how that language is put to use in the context of a web application. I initially studied for 3.5 months for about 6 hours a day and all I could do was build a shitty todo app with jQuery. I couldn't figure out how to integrate my knowledge of HTML, CSS, and basic JS with modern frameworks (Backbone?, Angular?, Ember?, React?, Vue?) and tooling (Babel?, gulp?, Webpack?, npm?, git?, bash/unix?) that has become industry standard.

(2) Codeacademy isn't going to do diddly shit for you aside from teaching you the basics.

The real learning beneficiaries of codeacademy, codeschool, etc. are those that build the platforms and give the lessons. The problem with those sites is that they give you tasks that are divorced from context. You learn how to do one neat trick in javascript (like loop over an array and print names) or build a part of an application (click a button and show a pop-up), but you don't really understand why you're doing what you're doing or how you might apply that knowledge.

(3) If you go the bootcamp route, make sure your instructor has a curriculum AND has experience building a production web application.

The quality of the instructor is PIVOTAL, and you will want to talk to him before you start the course.

Amazingly, I have no experience building production web applications. I've done some freelance wordpress and some spec projects. I managed to land this job through hanging around the campus where I studied and was helping students, giving demos etc. I'm qualified to teach the curriculum, but I'm no expert on building real-world apps, and I know they are partly worse off for me not having real production experience

On the flip side of that consideration is the curriculum. There are instructors where I work who have a lot of industry experience, but they are aspies and their curriculum and methodology blows. When this is the case, the students don't benefit at all.

Make sure you get a full curriculum day-by-day curriculum from the instructor, and a few sample assignments. The assignments are the basis for your education, and they should be formally and thoroughly written with instructions for project setup, learning objectives, and feature requirements that you are to build.

I'll repeat: to get the most out of your experience and the true value for your money, you need to have both an industry professional teaching the course, who is teaching a solid curriculum.

And as an aside, don't be intimidated to ask these pointed questions during the interview. The interview process is really just a sly marketing tactic to shift the frame and make it seem as if you are the one being qualified and evaluated rather than the other way around.

(4) If you go the bootcamp route, make sure you go in with at least 200 hours of study time in HTML, CSS, & JS.

About 1/2 of the students I've seen over the last 2 years in bootcamps have gotten jobs. The other 1/2 give up or just fade out and don't become developers. You are much more likely to be in the successful 1/2 if you are a more capable dev than your peers, and the best way to ensure that is to have a familiarity with web-programming fundamentals and to be primed going in.

Post: #6

Arafat has a lot of good points above. To add my two cents:

Bootcamps are largely just the latest business fad. Some are better than others, but really with the economy in the shitter Learning To Code has become almost like a meme these days. It seems like I am hearing everywhere now how everyone should to learn to code and that is the answer. The idea of working your ass off for 3-6 months and landing a high 5 figures dev job is extremely enticing for those stuck in low paying jobs. What I've found is that it is largely a pipe dream.

I myself did a short stint in a bootcamp, and dropped out to continue self-study and save myself a lot of money. At this point I'm 1200+ hours deep, and although I don't regret it I am pretty burnt out. Although in the beginning I enjoyed it, after this long grind over the last year I now find myself in a situation where I no longer have the passion and honestly can't bring myself to write another line of code. Taking a break.

The idea of having to land a corporate job now and work on some other person's project and grind out code all day is no longer enticing to me. Despite the good salary potential, I envision it as working 50+ hour weeks, then in addition, to remain competitive you have to be spending at least another 10+ hours a week on your own time keeping up with the latest trends and frameworks.

I haven't decided yet if I will pick up learning to code again after my hiatus. Just getting a job now to put some money in the bank and feel like I'm not spinning my wheels anymore.

Try out code academy for a week or two sure (probably enough time to complete almost all their lessons), but if you don't truly have a passion for programming, learning to code may be a bad option. The honeymoon period may fade like it has for me.

If you really want to do this, bootcamps do have some benefit. The main thing being that unless you have someone who is experienced reviewing your code you will never really know if the code you are writing is shit or not. You can spend a lot of time learning on your own writing terrible quality code while thinking your a boss and not have any idea how bad it really is. Most programs do provide an intelligent path to follow that keeps you from wasting time learning in haphazard fashion. A beginner coder won't really know what they need to know, so having a plan and structure is important.

My main problem with bootcamps is the cost, and the fact that at a lot of places most instructors are former students with no industry experience. Any programmer worth his shit wouldn't bother teaching at a bootcamp because they can make a LOT more money out there working in the real world. Unless they have an extreme love of teaching. No offense arafat, but that trend does concern me as you've also touched upon in your post.

Currently some bootcamp grads are getting jobs, but it's no where near as many at the statistics they put out show. These numbers also get inflated when they hire their own students as instructors. Also what they don't tell you is that it often takes another 3-6 months after the bootcamp of grinding out job applications and continued self study just to finally land your first job. AND it is not guaranteed. Have to budget that in. Even if you do land a job you may find that professional coding was not what you expected. I have heard that from other people I know who have completed programs.

I would be interested to know how many bootcamp graduates who landed jobs are still in the industry after a few years. Anyway learning to code is not for the faint of heart, and I definitely wouldn't go into debt to do it. Seriously think about why you want to get into programming before you commit. IF you have the money and are willing to take a gamble, then feel free to go for it. But just know, it is exactly that, a GAMBLE.

Post: #7

If I were in your position I'd double down on the sales side.

If you feel that the lack of technical knowledge is limiting you, then ya - start studying in your time off. Thailand is a good place to do that, but the guys are right - it's fucking tough.

Here's my logic: You're not even a junior programmer at this point, but you obviously have some skills with sales. You don't need to be a programmer to sell technical products or services, you just need to understand the limitations of your product and/or service. Lots of the time that'll just be grilling your engineers with questions.

Basically ya, you can go to a bootcamp and bust your ass to become a junior web developer. What then? You can get a junior web developer job, which pays a lot less than a good sales guy will make.

Go sell shit.

Source: professional developer for 25 years.

Post: #8

Just wanted to add that you don't need a formal education to make cash as a programmer as a freelancer. I am self taught and rake serious cash.

Its only a sometimes sideline for me, but I could make it a main thing. Its all about delivering results to a client, not what formal education you have.

I believe you could make cash as a self taught guy, but again it would take iron discipline.

Bootcamps are like buying a treadmill. Fatties mistake the effort of buying with the effort of getting fit. Its not the cash you spend on a treadmill that will make you fit, its the effort exercising. You can self teach like you can run on the road.

Post: #9

Thanks guys, I will probably keep looking in sales and build technical knowledge on the side. I'm probably not cut out for programming, plus the upside to sales is much higher.

Post: #10

(05-10-2017 05:24 PM)Graft Wrote:  Thanks guys, I will probably keep looking in sales and build technical knowledge on the side. I'm probably not cut out for programming, plus the upside to sales is much higher.

Have you looked at sales engineer jobs?

I'm pretty sure you don't need an engineering degree for them. Just be kind of technical I was considering trying to get one if I ever get tired of software sales that I do now if I ever get tired/burned out.

it's 60-70/30-40 in terms of base/commission. But of course, you don't have the constant quota and prospecting which is nice.

I have an engineering degree myself and can't see myself going back to engineering.

Last I heard good SEs can command 200k+.

Post: #11

(05-10-2017 05:24 PM)Graft Wrote:  Thanks guys, I will probably keep looking in sales and build technical knowledge on the side. I'm probably not cut out for programming, plus the upside to sales is much higher.

How did you go from thinking about going to Thailand to self-study to saying that? If you're the type of person who would even consider dedicating yourself to self-study, then you're cut out for programming.

There are levels to programming. You don't need to be a programming God like John Carmack. You need to be able to, at a minimum, do maintenance work on the most common programs out there, which aren't all that complicated. They're basically fancy ways of retrieving and storing data in a database.

Anything beyond that depends on your goals.

Post: #12

Can't really offer any advice to the author other than checking out youtube videos about cost of living in Chiang Mai, apartment rentals, etc.

However, here is a business idea: somebody can start a coding bootcamp in Chiang Mai (or Bali, BKK, Saigon, Manila, Cebu, etc depending on which place is easier to set up a business). Seems like there is a lot of potential demand. I did a quick search and couldn't find any Chiang Mai bootcamps, for example.

Post: #13

(05-10-2017 09:14 PM)Corollary Wrote:  

(05-10-2017 05:24 PM)Graft Wrote:  Thanks guys, I will probably keep looking in sales and build technical knowledge on the side. I'm probably not cut out for programming, plus the upside to sales is much higher.

How did you go from thinking about going to Thailand to self-study to saying that? If you're the type of person who would even consider dedicating yourself to self-study, then you're cut out for programming.

There are levels to programming. You don't need to be a programming God like John Carmack. You need to be able to, at a minimum, do maintenance work on the most common programs out there, which aren't all that complicated. They're basically fancy ways of retrieving and storing data in a database.

Anything beyond that depends on your goals.

I'm wavering back and forth. Truthfully, I'm not cut out to sit in an office all day and make phone calls/excel spreadsheets/programming. I'm just trying to figure out how to financially survive for the rest of my life.

Post: #14

(05-10-2017 09:53 PM)Graft Wrote:  I'm wavering back and forth. Truthfully, I'm not cut out to sit in an office all day and make phone calls/excel spreadsheets/programming. I'm just trying to figure out how to financially survive for the rest of my life.

I feel you! I'm not either, and that's why I quit my job as a programmer.

If you want a secure financial future without having to put up with the bullshit of typical job, then start a business. There are an infinite number of businesses you can start, so find something that you can stand doing and do it.

It's more risky than a typical job, yes, but if you're willing to move to Thailand without a way to generate income, then you have more than enough risk tolerance to start a business.

Post: #15

Regarding the Thailand route, there is a alternative.

I did go to Saigon for three months last year(mars-may), i did not have the discipline i thought and i spent alot of time and money on girls. I did get some work done but nowhere nere the amount i had planned for.

In october i went back with a new plan, live in a boring city to really get shit done and thats what i did and still do. I live in a pretty small coast-town without many foreigners. I did go with my brother and i think it would have been somewhat hard to go alone, there are occasionally foreigners at the gym that probably would be open friendships but it would probably be pretty lonely i think.

If you dont mind that or have a friend that also wants to go it might be something for you.

The plan from the beginning was also to meet a regular girl, and i have that now but it took a long time. English level was a big problem.

I make money online now, but that has more to do with a friend(from home) making a living online moving here and mentoring me.

If i wanted to i could probably live for $600 or less per month. I think i live for maybe the double but i have a pretty nice apartment with a view and i do what i want without thinking much about money, no partying though.

Starting to get a bit bored now though, but it was a really good way of getting stuff done and i will never regret it.

Post: #16

Thanks a lot for the help by the way, I love this forum.

Post: #17

Come to Bangkok. Great timing now if you want to be in 'tech'. So much investment being poured into the startup ecosystem and there is a huge lack of talent.

Post: #18

You can code without the need to attend any expensive bootcamps.

Check frenchcorporation's thread on 'how to get a programmer job'

Just pick a couple of languages (C#, Java, JavaScript, HTML, CSS), learn it and also web technologies (Jquery, angular, node), SQL, NoSQL, object orientated programming, test driven development, git, aws etc.

Then develop 5 solid projects in the chosen languages. C#, Java, JavaScript is in very high demand.

You can learn through Treehouse, Pluralsight, Udacity, Lynda and use their projects as your own projects.

Good luck

Post: #19

(05-13-2017 06:41 AM)skptc Wrote:  Come to Bangkok. Great timing now if you want to be in 'tech'. So much investment being poured into the startup ecosystem and there is a huge lack of talent.

This is very interesting. Can you share more information about this?

-Examples of successful startups and local venture capital firms?
-Examples of job postings or job search websites?
-What skills are in demand?
-Which industries are hot (e.g. BPO, local online shopping, p2p lending, etc)?
-How easy is it to get a visa if you create a startup? What about work permit if you work for a startup?
-I heard that according to visa rules you have to hire the same amount of locals as you hire foreigners even if locals just sit on their asses and don't contribute. Is it still true?

Post: #20

Take your money, buy a flight to Thailand and collect unemployment while learning, while doing some freelance sales. A good sales person will always make more than a programmer, so build your own business selling software.

Post: #21

How common are location independent programming jobs? Once decent at basics would it be hard to grind out 10-20k a year while traveling/improving?

Does anybody have a link to a video that reallly explains what programming jobs/life is like? Something for a complete newb?

Post: #22

(05-10-2017 05:24 PM)Graft Wrote:  Thanks guys, I will probably keep looking in sales and build technical knowledge on the side. I'm probably not cut out for programming, plus the upside to sales is much higher.

You are going to learn jack and shit on your own.

Go work for an IT consulting company / VAR if you have sales experience. Resellers of Cisco, Microsoft, VMware, IBM, HP, Dell et al. require a certain number of certified sales and engineers to be on their payroll. The more certified employees the employer has, the deeper discounts they receive on the product. They have both technical certifications and sales certifications.

Depending on your experience, you could start in sales or some sort of support role, then move in to sales engineering if you are a technical lightweight. From there you could move in to engineering if you desire.

These tech manufacturers give their resellers credits to attend technical and sales certification trainings so it costs nothing but a flight, hotel and food for your employer.

I was an engineer for a consulting company when I was your age. I spent about half of my time actually doing my job. The other half was flying around the country going to conferences (getting Jim Layhey drunk for free), taking certification courses, studying and testing.

I flew all over the country with that job, stayed in some great places, ate great food and partied on the dime of Cisco, VMware and Microsoft.

I would guess each cert cost around $5K with all expenses taken in to account and I was taking 6 to 12 certification trips a year without paying a dime. My resume has been solid gold because of it.

I am not sure where you live but you would need to live in a town around 200,000 in population to find a local employer. There are however larger resellers that allow you to work remotely. I did that for a few years too. I lived across the country from my employer, but was living in hotels and airports and it got old.

So bottom line, don't pay for those expensive cert courses out of your own pocket. You can get them for free. Just search for IT consulting companies or Cisco or Microsoft certified resellers in the city you want to live.

Be prepared to nut up though, it isn't for everyone. You have to put in a lot of study time and the travel can get tiring if you are on the road jumping between time zones multiple times a month. The up side of that is there is high turn over at these places since they are pushed so hard to sell so jobs are out there.

Post: #23

(05-18-2017 10:52 PM)IvanDrago Wrote:  

(05-10-2017 05:24 PM)Graft Wrote:  Thanks guys, I will probably keep looking in sales and build technical knowledge on the side. I'm probably not cut out for programming, plus the upside to sales is much higher.

You are going to learn jack and shit on your own.

Go work for an IT consulting company / VAR if you have sales experience. Resellers of Cisco, Microsoft, VMware, IBM, HP, Dell et al. require a certain number of certified sales and engineers to be on their payroll. The more certified employees the employer has, the deeper discounts they receive on the product. They have both technical certifications and sales certifications.

Depending on your experience, you could start in sales or some sort of support role, then move in to sales engineering if you are a technical lightweight. From there you could move in to engineering if you desire.

These tech manufacturers give their resellers credits to attend technical and sales certification trainings so it costs nothing but a flight, hotel and food for your employer.

I was an engineer for a consulting company when I was your age. I spent about half of my time actually doing my job. The other half was flying around the country going to conferences (getting Jim Layhey drunk for free), taking certification courses, studying and testing.

I flew all over the country with that job, stayed in some great places, ate great food and partied on the dime of Cisco, VMware and Microsoft.

I would guess each cert cost around $5K with all expenses taken in to account and I was taking 6 to 12 certification trips a year without paying a dime. My resume has been solid gold because of it.

I am not sure where you live but you would need to live in a town around 200,000 in population to find a local employer. There are however larger resellers that allow you to work remotely. I did that for a few years too. I lived across the country from my employer, but was living in hotels and airports and it got old.

So bottom line, don't pay for those expensive cert courses out of your own pocket. You can get them for free. Just search for IT consulting companies or Cisco or Microsoft certified resellers in the city you want to live.

Be prepared to nut up though, it isn't for everyone. You have to put in a lot of study time and the travel can get tiring if you are on the road jumping between time zones multiple times a month. The up side of that is there is high turn over at these places since they are pushed so hard to sell so jobs are out there.

I like this idea. I have a few interviews with MSPs/IT consulting firms that work with Azure/AWS/Google Cloud/and Big Data. I hope to land it. Located in NYC btw.

Post: #24

(05-20-2017 03:10 AM)Graft Wrote:  I like this idea. I have a few interviews with MSPs/IT consulting firms that work with Azure/AWS/Google Cloud/and Big Data. I hope to land it. Located in NYC btw.

"Cloud" and "big data" are just buzzword marketing terms for "outsourcing". Companies are making money right now though selling these services though so that could be a good start for you.

This type of stuff is why I moved out of the IT world a few year back. No need for a lot of experienced system engineers onsite when you can let " the cloud" take care of your work right What could go wrong

I'd persue it if I were you though and are just getting started and don't have much hands on technical experience yet.

Post: #25

Can you do what you were earning 6 figures before doing for a company but for yourself?