Post: #26

Although there are undoubtedly advantages to attending an Ivy league school, IMHO, in the United States, the benefits are not as great as attending an elite school in many foreign countries. For example in some places in Asia, attendance at an elite school is literally the difference between rich/upper middle class and being average.

In the United States the division is not quite as stark. I believe that they've surveyed top management at Fortune 500 companies as having a greater number of state school grads, although it's probably higher as a percentage when speaking of Ivy grads. Plenty of CEO's, politicians and successful business people are state school grads if not college dropouts even. Lots of people like Steve Jobs, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, etc are not Ivy grads.

Contrast this with upper management in some foreign countries where a higher percentage comes from elite school and not having attended one is a barrier in life. IMHO, having the right degree, experience and going to the correct school/program for your major/career is just as important. There are of course some industries or areas that give preference or fill themselves with Ivy leaguers like I-banking, elite law firms and social networks in places like NYC, SF and LA.

Post: #27

I went to a top tier school in the UK.

The benefits in the US may not be as great as in other countries. In France, if you went to one of the top schools like the ÉNA you're regarded as a demigod and set for life. An Ivy degree is not the same kind of guarantee, even if it boosts your chances.

Academically the quality of undergraduate education doesn't vary too much between reasonably good schools.

The main benefit is the network. There are alumni in high places all over the world who will listen to what you have to say, and in some cases go out of their way to help you. If you need an introduction somewhere you can sometimes find a way to get it through alumni even if they graduated decades before you. It gets you past the first hurdle when looking for a job or striking up new business partnerships. People will take it as a given that you're reasonably smart. This is true for any industry, not just finance / law / big consulting firms.

A successful entrepreneur once told me that the only benefit he got out of going to an Ivy school is that he wasn't phased when sat across the negotiating table from Harvard MBAs in powerful positions. And having easier access to good people when he started hiring.

Does it benefit my game? Not much. If it comes up (it's never me bringing it up) Ivy girls are either neutral or moderately positive. They figure we probably have something in common; if we're around the same age we might know people in common. So it builds comfort.

It's not my preferred niche though; I went to an Ivy singles event in NYC recently and the level of talent was (unsurprisingly) poor. If I were looking for a wife and running beta provider game it would probably help more. But I'm not planning on finding out

Post: #28

Everything I've heard seems to suggest that undergrad in an Ivy isn't too much better than one at a good state school, but a Masters is where an Ivy education really helps build connections and respect.

U of M isn't considered an Ivy but they are on par with the Ivies in many fields and have much lower tuition.

If I were to consider going to an Ivy I'd go to a state school for Undergrad, get good grades, and then go to an Ivy for my Masters degree.

Post: #29

(08-31-2011 02:13 PM)torontokid Wrote:  Everything I've heard seems to suggest that undergrad in an Ivy isn't too much better than one at a good state school, but a Masters is where an Ivy education really helps build connections and respect.

U of M isn't considered an Ivy but they are on par with the Ivies in many fields and have much lower tuition.

If I were to consider going to an Ivy I'd go to a state school for Undergrad, get good grades, and then go to an Ivy for my Masters degree.

This is unmistakably wrong.

College is not about education. College is about connections.

Post: #30

(08-31-2011 02:29 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

(08-31-2011 02:13 PM)torontokid Wrote:  Everything I've heard seems to suggest that undergrad in an Ivy isn't too much better than one at a good state school, but a Masters is where an Ivy education really helps build connections and respect.

U of M isn't considered an Ivy but they are on par with the Ivies in many fields and have much lower tuition.

If I were to consider going to an Ivy I'd go to a state school for Undergrad, get good grades, and then go to an Ivy for my Masters degree.

This is unmistakably wrong.

College is not about education. College is about connections.

So wouldn't getting a Masters at an Ivy get you those connections?

Post: #31

---

Post: #32

(08-31-2011 03:24 PM)youngmobileglobal Wrote:  Torontokid, he is actually correct in this case.

If I had to choose between my undergrad and masters (both ivy), then I would choose undergrad without hesitation.

Hmm I guess I heard wrong.

What factors lead to undergrad being more beneficial?

Post: #33

The following is my opinion.

Going to Ivy for undergrad is better because you lay the foundations of your future connections there. Because college is structured on a social network, setting that foundation at the beginning is crucial for your future success.

If I went to a no-name college and then to an Ivy for Master's, I would have to work 2-3x harder to build the foundations and sustain them. OTOH, going to an Ivy college means the Ivy name does half the work for you. The other half is through your charm and personality.

Going to an Ivy college makes it easier to get a job right after graduation or after your Master's. People I know went from Ivy college to Ivy Master's becuase of the pedigree and name rather than anything else. The degree is the same everywhere in colleges and universities but the name of the Ivy gives weight and makes it easier to build on your existing connections.

Post: #34

----

Post: #35

If you are in industries were connections are critical, I totally agree on the impact of Ivy or psuedo-Ivy (Stanford, Cal-Berkley, etc). Don't get me wrong, if Columbia would have been more "guaranteeing" of grad-school acceptance through the "back door path" (I will explain that at the bottom of this post), I would have done my M.S. at Columbia. I still say doing careers like software engineering are less about connections and more about what can you do or have done.


Back door path to grad-school admissions = taking 3 or 4 graduate courses before being admitted and leveraging that to get you admitted instead of past undergrad GPA, undergrad school, etc.

Post: #36

(08-31-2011 11:21 PM)torontokid Wrote:  

(08-31-2011 03:24 PM)youngmobileglobal Wrote:  Torontokid, he is actually correct in this case.

If I had to choose between my undergrad and masters (both ivy), then I would choose undergrad without hesitation.

Hmm I guess I heard wrong.

What factors lead to undergrad being more beneficial?

1) You have longer to make the connections. People doing master's programmes are typically older and often not as easy to bond with.

2) You're younger, you form deeper bonds at that age.

3) A lot of the social stuff that goes on (fraternities, societies, etc.) are very undergrad focused. It's easier to meet people through those.

I agree with villageindian that it can still be done at master's level, it's just more work and you'll have to be more deliberate about how you approach it. Being a student of game you should have an easier time coming up with the right strategies to make good contacts.

Post: #37

I went to an Ivy for undergrad and I'm happy that I did it.

I feel like I got a solid education and I feel it's better than one I'd get in something like a state school, but this is speculation since I never went to a state school. My feeling is that at any decent college, you're all reading essentially the same textbooks and covering the same material, so you can get a solid education anywhere if you put in the effort. The difference is that the intelligence and drive of other students at top-tier schools is higher, so you're pushed harder to stay ahead of the curve. Not to say that everyone that goes to an Ivy is intelligent (I met tons of morons at school), but on average the students at top tier schools are smarter and work harder than students at second tier schools and below.

With girls, it doesn't seem to make a big difference when they find out where I went to school. I didn't go to Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, which I think have an order of magnitude higher name recognition and prestige to the average person. I find that about 20-30% of girls don't even recognize my school as a top college because it wasn't a college consideration for them or anyone in their circle, so it means nothing to them. What I do notice about girls who recognize it as an Ivy is that they'll often assume that I'm very smart based on where I went to school even if I haven't really demonstrated any intelligence to her yet. Even if I demonstrate stupidity, they either ignore it or assume I'm joking, so there's a nice halo effect there.

I can't really speak to its effect on job hunting because I have nothing to compare it to. It was fairly easy for me to find a high-paying software job after graduation (majored in CS), but to say what effect the Ivy name had, I'd have to compare my experiences to people who graduated at the same time and with similar qualifications, but went to a less prestigious school and I don't know anyone like that. I can say that most of my college friends who studied engineering found lucrative jobs pretty easily while most of my liberal arts friends did not, but I don't think that's unique to Ivies.

Post: #38

I'm willing to bet that some cats here who went to a state school like myself already told some bitch that they graduated from Harvard or Yale! You get the "halo" effect Arobin talks about for free and chances of you getting caught in a lie are small since you won't go into details and just mention it as a no big deal fact about you.

Post: #39

(08-29-2011 10:50 PM)BostonBMW Wrote:  Without a doubt an Ivy League degree opens up the doors. I didn't go to an Ivy for undergrad but I can definitely attest to the power of the degree.

I grew up in an area on Long Island in New York famous for its famous people. One of my childhood friends had a father who had won the Pulitzer Prize, another's was a Consul General for the State Dept. On the other hand, my parents, although intelligent, never went beyond high school.

I went to state school for undergrad, took the GRE's and outscored the average admitted doctoral candidate in my field for all the Ivies.

(Only the scores of MIT Cognitive Sciences' accepted applicants for doctoral slots outscored me.)

So by objective standards, I am as smart as most of them.

But I've been laughed at- literally laughed at--all my life when I mention where I went to school, because my school was known as a party school.

I went and got my doctorate ( not from a prestige school), saved up and am now semi-retired. I produce independent films now that I don't work full time.

State jobs are the godsend for those in the working and lower middle classes who don't want to get kicked around forever. I've got a pension now that is probably not going away.

It's very clear to me that the intellect of the people around me in the State environment was far inferior than that of the "connected" people, and I once I had the additional stamp of state job mediocrity on me, it probably became pretty much impossible to move into a different social circle without some amazing biz idea or expensive further graduate training.

The life paths of the elite and of the working class life diverge early and, except for limited exceptions, completely.

Steve Job's biological father and mother had both gone to grad school. Inherited brains are a big thing too.

Post: #40

Also an Ivy alum here. I believe, if anything, it's best for networking. Most of what you'll learn in class will from similar textbooks. The only differences are focus areas.

Has definitely opened many doors from me. Most of us aren't game types, but isn't that why we come o this forum to help us get started?

Post: #41

Go to the best school that you can get into that is still in a location that you can at least tolerate living in. Agree with most of the above. Great college -> great connections for first job or -> easier in to great med/law/grad schools -> easier to "succeed" in life overall. Can you do it from State School? You can. But you will have to be a total baller in all ways from day 1, or be incredibly lucky. Make it easier on yourself and go to the best from the beginning.

(08-28-2011 10:59 PM)velkrum Wrote:  I understand what you are all saying. I have chosen the medical field (doctor) and there is a vast amount of opportunities any and every where in the country. I was looking at things through a small perspective.

If jobs for doctors started becoming scarce then yes I can absolutely see the prestige of a school (and numerous other factors) appearing more desirable in a competitive situation.

I can speak to this. You want to go to top med school if you can (you probably know who they are, and aside from Harvard they are mostly not Ivy League). And to get there you want to go to a great undergrad. This is why. Prestigious undergrad school -> prestigious medical school -> helps you get the residency and location you want. (But overall, perhaps less important that business and law.)

If you can go to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Ivy League etc, or a similar level school like Stanford/MIT/Caltech (There are others too), or Amherst/Williams/etc then you will get the hook ups to last a lifetime. You only get one chance on this to set it straight from the beginning, unfortunately your chance comes as a senior in high school when you are at your likely stupidest stage in life. So, don't blow it.

I don't suggest name dropping the Ivies or similar in your approach even if you do have that behind you. No need. But if the chick likes you, she might ask where you went and what you do, and THEN you can clinch it with some Ivy cachet if you got it.

Post: #42

I'll add my .02

Went to public undergrad/top tier grad

My answer is: it depends.

I'm surprised no one mentioned a cost/benefit analysis. So for starters. Assuming you're paying full price.

Top tier private school: ~$200k
Decent State School: ~$70k

Now given that you get into top tier private school I'm assuming you're going to get some sort of scholarship to the state school. So lets ask what you get for a $150k price differential (I'd say a conservative estimate).

What you get.

Connections and an easier time getting into that first job and to a lesser extent grad school, etc... Well known firms - wallstreet/google/facebook/mcK heavily recruit at these schools.

All these firms have well paying jobs so the debt can be paid off in 2 years.

Additionally, hubs like Stanford/MIT/Harvard always have startups spiraling out of them if you're interested.

What you miss out on.

Better parties/hotter girls at state schools.
+$150k (probably more)

What I've noticed is that people are most interested in your last job/school. So firms hiring will look at your school name while 20 years down the road people look at your accomplishments. School brand becomes more and more irrelevant as you get older. For grad school it's not THAT relevant. Perhaps for business and to a lesser extent law/medicine. I know the latter two professions (especially medicine) try to diversify the cohort so that they get a lot of random people from different colleges.

Also. The best way to form connections - competence in something valuable and rare. For instance, Roosh who attended a public school, has an infinite well of gratitude and good will from a lot of guys. Probably far more than any ivy league guy on this forum. If you can shit gold bricks, people will be lining up from everywhere to talk to you, regardless if you went to Podunk college.

When you read that someone says "ivy league connections are worth it". You have to ask several things

(1) were the connections because of the school or the person's competence?
(2) is it worth $150k, missed opportunities etc...
(3) are you going to take advantage of it?? I've seen so many people from top tier schools just milling around.


The smartest guys I know went to public school - full ride + stipend, had fun, tore it up academically, landed good job after school then went to top grad schools. The only difference between them and the other kids at ivies was that they were up ~$250k. Even more actually, as they invested any money that came pouring in and no interest payments on loans....


As for mentioning it to women... I've learned to keep my trap shut. The conversation just gets awkward. However, if she finds out by herself later you get points. The only exception is if she's well accomplished/academically inclined in which case she's probably yearning for some guy to relate with her as most other guys from her experience are likely intimidated.

Post: #43

Sorry... The most important thing you get out of going to the best college you can get into is - surrounding yourself with people better than yourself.

What is very subtle is that when you hang around a group of friends for a long time is that everyone's personalities tend to shift a bit to the average of the group. You pick up their habits (good/bad), their goals, and their culture. If done properly this can accelerate any learning curve. Imagine hanging around with a group of players, geniuses, what have you. The learning curve bends tremendously.

This is a huge selling point of elite colleges.

However, if you think in terms of percentages of exceptional people, a large state school might have 5% whereas an elite school that number might move up to 30%+.

To find that 5% you'll have to do a lot of searching at a large state school but there is comfort that a critical amount of those kids do exist just due to the sheer size of some state schools. Whereas in an elite college, you don't have to spend that much time searching.

But the trick is to take advantage of the opportunity afforded to you. I know so many instances of kids paying $200k, not doing anything exceptional, and coming out the same as the local state school kids.