Post: #1

Was gaming a Russian 9 in Prague last year when this idea really dawned on me. Had been gaming two other Russians, an 8 and a 7.5, that same trip, plus a couple Bohemians - 8.5 and 8. Observed similar behavior in the Russian 8 and to a lesser extent the Russian 7.5 and Bohemian 8.

I'm totally reluctant to really call it a fully-fledged personality disorder as the girls are still much more pleasant and less repulsive personality-wise than your typical privileged Western girl. In fact, you could argue they're eventually much more suitable as LTR girls than many other, perhaps more Westernized Eastern European women. From my experience, they have had even less partners than their countrywomen and when the nut is cracked, they offer a lot. They tend to be loyal, too, even after you depart.

I listened to Roosh's recent podcast with Kyle Trouble and I generally agree that romantic differences between Polish and other West Slavic girls on the one hand and Russians and Ukrainian girls on the other are fairly pronounced.

But what I am noticing is that a wide cross-section of Slavic girls, most notably Russians and Ukrainians, who spent the mid to late 90s as children often had poor childhoods in some regard, especially emotionally and in terms of parental bonding. We can't put it all down to subsequent Westernization.

From the ones I have gamed and fucked, there are some common features: parents were bedazzled/mowed down by the chaotic transition from communism, often had to relocate or roam around in search of work, or spend hours/half-days in line for bare necessities like bread or milk. Meanwhile, poor 3-7-year-old Maria/Tatiana/Olga/Svetlana got lumped with her babushka and rarely saw her parents. Coupled with often being an only child, they were lonely and disappointed from the very beginning.

Their outward behavior comes across as more frigid and even bitchy than the veneer guys unaccustomed to Russian or Ukrainian women observe on first or second meetings. But they also tend to hang around more than fellow Slavic girls, who rarely seem to walk off anyway.

As for the Russian 9 in Prague, with her it felt like a rather bizarre rollercoaster - what seemed like a shit test, then some sort of cathartic moment where things went well, then an apparent shit test again, followed by the catharsis. She would backtrack all the time, seemingly for no reason.

It's hard to explain, but it's almost as if she expected me to say, "Fuck off to your babushka."

What seems to work:

- Threatening to walk away from them when the tantrums start. Pretty matter-of-factly, I told the 9 that if she wanted to whinge about the price of coffee, we could part ways. I had other girls pipelined and could just leave, and would leave even if I hadn't pipelined. Girls like the 9 push for your acquiescence but more so than other girls feel attracted by your lack of acquiescence.

- Make them feel safe. These are sexually developed adult females who still feel as scared as children. Everything from their parents, university, the job market etc, especially in a foreign country like CZ, frightens the shit out of them. But then this 9 found free lavender bundles in my hotel apartment under the pillows, curled up in a ball on the bed sniffing them, and asked for more cuddles.

- Give them stability. Related to the last point. They don't tend to party much, eschew most forms of alcohol, at least in significant quantities. I actually had to dial myself down for a few of these girls (the 9 being just the main example), despite having already dialled myself down before that, as I sensed the girls weren't party types.

The drawbacks:

- Little idea of how far any instability goes. In a lot of these Slavic girls, and now I'm going back into my last three or four years of game as well, I perceive a craving for traditionalism, the sort they didn't get as kids. If they talk about careers, family or a partner is still the most important goal for them. You can sort of forgive the career talk as they lack money a lot of the time and just want to go beyond month-to-month living. But without a LTR with them, there's little way of knowing if the childhood effects will come out more perniciously later on.

- Reverting to old patterns. If you crack the nut, it might come back together again. I stay in touch with most of these girls and spending only three straight days with them six months ago often means you come back to the same person you had when you first met her.

- What if you leave them? Speaks for itself. And this is greatly relevant if you're living in the city in which you dump her.

I'm pulling three of these girls to Bratislava in April and May, so I'll report back on how I go.

Post: #2

This is very true from my experience. I have dated Russian women and i would say they have serious family issues. Some so deep that their emotional front is broken forever. They can be extremely self centered and cold to the problems of others (even when you are her partner). Also due to communism and the lack of individual responsibility arising from it, they have huge expectations from "The Man" in their life.

Post: #3

The personality disorder we talk about the most on the forum is borderline personality disorder. It is a cluster b personality disorder along with narcissistic, histrionic, and antisocial which is similar to sociopathy or psychopathy.

The important thing to remember is that these personality disorders are spectrum disorders meaning that people have varying degrees of symptoms. For our purposes it doesn't really matter if the girl has the full-fledged disorder or not. Most of the crazy girls we talk about probably don't have an actual disorder but they don't need to have the full-fledged disorder to wreak havoc in our lives. We just want to recognize the behaviors or symptoms so we know when to avoid serious relationships or cut off the girl completely.

I think all of us, especially younger guys, can benefit from reading about all of the cluster b disorders (not just borderline). The behaviors associated with these disorders are on the rise in western culture and are common in a lot of our travel destinations, especially the locations that have had a lot of conflict or instability in the recent decades. The behaviors are also common with players as there is a lot of overlap with the dark triad personality traits (narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy).

If I was looking for an LTR outside of western culture, I would look for areas that haven't had much conflict, war, or instability and a girl who came from a stable family. I know this is beyond obvious but we tend to forget these things when we are banging attractive women.

Post: #4

"I would look for areas that haven't had much conflict, war, or instability and a girl who came from a stable family."

What would you consider an area that satisfies that criteria?

Post: #5

The family and financial instability, and the general cultural malaise of communism, definitely leaves long lasting scars for generations.

You might be worried about gold diggers, but the opposite is nearly as bad -- insane, rabid thrift to the point of stress over every single purchase (no matter how financially comfortable one is). That sorta happens when you watch your parents' life savings become worthless overnight.

Post: #6

Alcoholism is highly prevalent in EE male culture. This causes a lot of familial instability and dysfunction. Leading to what could loosely be categorized as "daddy issues" such as fear of abandonment. EE women tend to be caught in the conflict between yearning for steadfast practical stability and conditioned into craving emotional chaos. But if you learn to play their strings they are the most loyal, feminine not to mention hot as fuck women on the planet

Post: #7

The most reliable predictor of how a girl will act in an LTR is her relationship with her family, especially her father.

Post: #8

I've just read this, it's quite interesting :

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2017/06/0...ian-women/

I wonder if ukranian women are like this.

Post: #9

I love the Russian girls, but they are very very hard work to game them.

It's hard for us to imagine in the west, just how tough, bleak and knifes edge their life is, and this of course reflects in massive shit tests, a craving for resources and stability.

It's hard work, but they are my favorite look and feel. the rewards are enormous. No woman gives a blow job like a daughter of Stalin.

I love it when they feel safe enough to revert to that little feminine girl - as OP has experienced.

Post: #10

(06-07-2017 09:40 AM)questor70 Wrote:  "I would look for areas that haven't had much conflict, war, or instability and a girl who came from a stable family."

What would you consider an area that satisfies that criteria?

I haven't been looking for an LTR so I haven't thought about it much. All areas have had conflict so I would think of it in relative terms. For example, Argentina is probably better than Venezuela in Latin America and Thailand is probably better than Cambodia in SEA. This is only one of many things to consider.

(06-08-2017 01:12 PM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  I've just read this, it's quite interesting :

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2017/06/0...ian-women/

I wonder if ukranian women are like this.

I read this article and it can be summarized in a few sentences. The author is only talking about Russian or FSU women in the United States because he has no experience with those women outside of the United States. He won't date Russian or FSU in the U.S. because he has had many experiences with them being very crazy.

I've talked to several forum guys who think EE women are the best for LTRs but this thread and that blog post are enough to make me skeptical.

I hope more guys will post their experiences in this thread especially guys who have had LTRs with these girls.

Post: #11

(06-08-2017 07:00 PM)birthday cat Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 01:12 PM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  I've just read this, it's quite interesting :

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2017/06/0...ian-women/

I wonder if ukranian women are like this.

I read this article and it can be summarized in a few sentences. The author is only talking about Russian or FSU women in the United States because he has no experience with those women outside of the United States. He won't date Russian or FSU in the U.S. because he has had many experiences with them being very crazy.

I've talked to several forum guys who think EE women are the best for LTRs but this thread and that blog post are enough to make me skeptical.

I hope more guys will post their experiences in this thread especially guys who have had LTRs with these girls.

I have never been into these girls. I would have to agree with the blog post. Despite their beauty, tall, skinny and smart, the gold digger attitudes and victim attitudes as the "damsel in distress", it makes these girls boring and predictable to me. Whenever I engage with one I automatically get suspicious of her intentions. When they act that way towards me I want to be a total dick to them. Unfortunately that usually turns them on. I am seeing one now and I just can not get interested in her, despite the perfect tits, delicious pussy, 5'8" perfect body, blonde/blue eyed feminine ideal, with a CS degree and software engineer profession. I can just sense something looming there I need to back away from.

Yes, young men need to learn how to spot and run away from crazy women. That is why quickly identifying red flags is crucial. Especially in hunting for that GF, go forth and be ruthless young men. This is a good blog to start with, to identify crazy women;
http://shrink4men.com/

Post: #12

The problem is that, in many cases, these women are so ruthless that although you see numerous warning signs, you ignore them because you can't believe what they indicate. Only when the trap is sprung/the bomb goes off, do you realise that your instincts were right, and that a woman can really be that bad.

Post: #13

I skimmed through this thread and here are my thoughts.

Opinion about the whole nation of people based on few girls met outside of the country is probably not accurate.

I have extensive exposure to Russian women from all over FSU and I must say that they are different. There is no one type to underline them all. Some are crazy some are not.

Commonalities include - relationship oriented and not looking to fuck around, money oriented - your social standing matters a lot and I do agree with what have been said about victim mentality. This is common among both men and women yet there are always exceptions.

I am also surprised at how some guys want women to be both feminine and strong. You have to understand that some things just don't coexist together. It is like wanting a ferrari which you can also take out for driving in the woods and marshes. That sucks but this is reality.

Post: #14

(06-08-2017 01:12 PM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  I've just read this, it's quite interesting :

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2017/06/0...ian-women/

I wonder if ukranian women are like this.

The thing to remember about Blackdragon, as he has said a million times on his blog, is that he hates drama. He is not a thrill of the hunt kind of guy. He wants to get to sex as fast as possible, spending as little money as possible, and once he is sleeping with a girl, he will continue to sleep with her until she decides to go away.

So he is not criticizing women from the FSU as a value judgement. He is only explaining why he doesn't date them.

He has explained on numerous occasions that there are "thrill of the hunt' guys on the one hand, and high libido guys on the other who like sex, and a lot of it. He puts himself into the second category, and as a result, does not have the patience to deal with the mega Russian shit tests, it isn't worth it to him, whereas, overcoming a girl's resistance might be part of the fun for a thrill of the hunt kind of guy.

He also likes to spend as little time and especially money as possible to get a girl into bed, so any demands from a woman he hasn't slept with that he spend money on her is pretty much an instant next.

And finally, he admits in this post that he has only dealt with FSU women who were living in the United States, and not in their natural habitat. I would assume that a woman who has lived here for a bit would take on some of the aggressiveness and entitlement of the Western woman, while still expecting to be treated like a lady, so these women are hybrids at best.

I like BD's blog, and found this post interesting. I just know that he writes very carefully, and you can be sure that he is not trashing FSU women in general, he is only specifically describing how Westernized Russian girls are not worth the trouble for him, and the lifestyle he has designed for himself. Nothing more.

Post: #15

^ I value BD's opinion on some things and he made it clear that he was only talking about these girls in the U.S. I don't have much experience with these girls in the U.S. but I've seen I've had similar experiences as BD in the very limited experience I've had. Based on all of this I would use extreme caution with these girls in the U.S. but I wouldn't avoid them completely. That is just my opinion and it's not really advice for anyone. I assume the girls outside of the U.S. are different.

I don't believe that BD hates drama. This is pure speculation but I think he is a high drama guy who consciously tries to avoid drama because of past experiences. He has an incessant need to be right about everything, he loves his debates (i.e. arguments), and tends to see everything from a black or white perspective. It's funny because I think his relationship advice is very good and I disagree with most of the criticism of him on this forum but I think he has his quirks and all his "I hate drama" talk comes from him knowing on some level that he is a high drama guy.

Post: #16

I think he is only referring to drama with women.

Post: #17

So, the one I was dating recently just casually let me know that she was divorced, three months after we started dating and having regular sex. Shes 28 with a good corporate job and good education, who would have thought.
Shady. So I dumped her, cold hearted. Not baby making material, not to be trusted. For the captain save-a-FSU-ho's out there, you just over look stuff like this? Blatant lying, shady past, etc? You trust bringing a girl into your life like this? I dont care how hot and "traditional" she is, thats just her game for western men. This has largely been my experience.

Post: #18

Do they drop their shields more if you speak Russian well?

If you're going in as the obvious westerner with cash looking for thrills that's probably part of the reason they're cold to you.

Post: #19

Hey Guys,

An update from my initial post (or series of updates). I will read your posts more later on and elaborate further.

I had some very interesting experiences with some of these Slavic girls I already mentioned, plus other ones.

I disagree with at least one of you: it's not just your typical drama with women.

With a Ukrainian girl (Svetlana) in particular (7.5-8), living in Austria for work but visiting me in Brno, CZ, the situation was plain bizarre.

I got the bang, but not before she burst into tears because I had supposedly flaked on her for dinner. I messaged her at 11am on a Saturday: "Let's get a bite to eat around 7 tonight." She messages back at 7:55pm: "I'm ready for dinner, are you sending a taxi?" She was staying at a nearby hotel with her friend and sister.

"I already have plans, didn't hear from you," I texted back.

S: "What? You're leaving me by myself?!"

D: "It's Saturday, I presumed you were busy, you didn't reply, I made other plans. You have your sister and friend anyway."

And on it went. Was in my hotel with another Ukrainian girl, and basically only replied to Svetlana while the second Ukrainian occupying me was taking a shower or make-up break.

Once the 2nd Ukrainian had to leave my hotel to study for some exam in the week (she studies in CZ), I offered to meet with Svetlana, provided she could "compose herself".

And, no joke, she literally went into a spiel about her childhood and false promises/expectations, the whole gamut of sob stories.

Eventually at around 3am, she gets a taxi to my hotel. After a walk to get food, her bra and panties are off by 4:45am. I could have sealed the deal at 3:15am, but I made her wait.

It was hilarious, actually. God knows what her sister and friend knew.

Post: #20

@David.garrett84

"I messaged her at 11am on a Saturday: "Let's get a bite to eat around 7 tonight."

^when you wrote that, or write this kind of invite, do you ever consider giving a deadline for a response? Such as: "let's get a bite to eat at 7, hit me up by X o'clock if you can join"

Not suggesting that's the right or preferred way, although I often have done it. At first it was out of insecurity of being flaked on, so that in my own mind I could at least know for certain by X time it was over and time to call in other options or aggressively develop some. However, subsequently I came to think of it more as just a matter of fact notice to them that they should let me know by X time if they plan on attending. Due to personality or cultural differences the notice or acceptance period may be very different, or later. I could also be just in denial that if a chick really wants too hang with you they let you know pretty quickly regardless.

Either way curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Post: #21

(08-11-2017 03:50 AM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  @David.garrett84

"I messaged her at 11am on a Saturday: "Let's get a bite to eat around 7 tonight."

^when you wrote that, or write this kind of invite, do you ever consider giving a deadline for a response? Such as: "let's get a bite to eat at 7, hit me up by X o'clock if you can join"

She took her sister and friend along, but the whole Brno venture was at my invitation. I sincerely doubt Brno was even on her radar of places to go until I invited her there a few months before while she was working in Austria.

With Russians and Ukrainians, sometimes you may need to do what you said, Robert, i.e. assert again to the girl that you want to see them by asking for a deadline (or clarifying a general place, or a specific venue etc). It's a question of how worth it such extra requests are.

Buuuuuuuuut.... I don't give a flying fuck any more about that and didn't really in the past, either. I just mostly "next" the girl nowadays, with few exceptions. I'll push the right buttons only to an extent. Once you're getting a lay every few days on these trips, the more drama-oriented girls are really only there to a) be avoided by you or b) for difficulty curve practice.

With this Ukrainian, I was pretty clear with her - act like an adult or fuck off. She acted like an adult (for her) and apologized, so we fucked. My frame would win out either way - we could fuck if she apologized or I could spend my time without her if she continued to bitch and whine.

I've come to the stage where if I only hook up with/fuck five new girls in two weeks' worth of time in Praha or Budapest, so be it. Same for more regular stays I enjoy in Brno. Once I'm getting sex once every two to three days on average, I lose all interest in certain drama antics from other girls. I have enough and I'm more than satisfied to walk away from the extra baggage these extra girls bring. I might play along for practice for a time, yet that's it.

Brno and Prague are also full of East Slavic student and junior professional girls (Czechs are West Slavs) who expect even platonic male friends to get their drinks. So there's also a financial element, not just a deadline/location one, to these girls' shit-testing. I know it looks like standard Western girl shit-testing, but I can't get my mind away from how it feels quite different from girls in America, the UK, Australia etc.

Post: #22

David,

That sounds like a great position to be in, and completely concur. The abundance mentality is absolutely effective, and it's amazing how women are so powerless around it, yet also can be utterly indifferent when it's not 100% genuine.

Much work to be done to get to that level.

I'd love to venture out further east and check out Brno some more. Sounds like a good spot and probably less visible (I hope) on the stag party circuit. Keep having fun in your travels there and keen to hear updates.

Post: #23

I stopped using Facebook ages ago. What still surprises me about Slavs and Facebook, however, is the high level of collegiality between Slavs (especially Slavic girls) online, mixed with a simultaneous superficiality/fakeness in actual social interactions between them in real life. Occasions like weddings and some parties bring these folks together and they act like best friends, but I'm continually left with a sense it's all something of a show.

On the one hand, you think, "Wow, people in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, or Hungary [yes, I know Hungary isn't Slavic but bear with me] are so much nicer, friendlier, and egalitarian towards one another. This is the example the West should follow."

Yet, on the other, it's almost like a social ritual people pay lip service to but don't follow up on in terms of real-life contact. Even the EE participants buy the illusion they create.

I'll explain myself.

A Slavic girl, even the one you wouldn't expect to be popular, often gets hundreds of Facebook likes for their "glam" photos or hundreds of Facebook birthday wishes. Some of my exes would wish happy birthday to or like the photos of practically everyone they "knew".

Then I have had exes or mere bangs say things like, "Tereza and Marketa are my best friends." But when Friday or Saturday night came round, I would be fielding calls or texts from my girl of the moment complaining about how said Tereza and Marketa aren't taking her calls or responding to her texts. Wash, rinse, and repeat for a number of the many other EE girls I've been with.

It's weird and it has borne itself out over multiple girls, multiple EE countries, and multiple contexts (urban vs. rural girls, working-class girls versus middle-class ones etc).

I am not saying it's a Western-style "social and community bonds have weakened" thing. In fact, in some or many ways those EE community bonds are far stronger and more resilient. Nevertheless, there's still something extremely illusory about EE social circles or larger communities. It's like the people present images of unity and community spirit (esp in smaller towns and villages) but everyday interactions are intrinsically basic and non-profound, regardless of how deep they first appear.

I'm expressing myself somewhat vaguely, I know, yet it's hard to verbalize properly what I am trying to say.

It's a sort of culture where you see a lot more external cooperation and harmony but when push comes to shove, people have really few confidantes, at least not ones they can share the worst parts of life with for support.

Post: #24

I only have experience with Slavs in New York City. I dated a few Russians, Ukrainians, and a Bulgarian. I found them all generally sexual once you got them into it, but they were cold, mercenary in relationships, and overly entitled. The Bulgarian I dated was a year ago. Beautiful, ivy league grad, investment banking job. 32. Ditched me one day because I didn't have coffee in the house (I don't drink coffee). Whatever.

Two weeks ago, she asks to see me. Fine, I'm getting old and I'm busy. She lost her job, can't get an H1-B visa, and wanted me to marry her. Like in a month. WTF?

Post: #25

(08-13-2017 02:20 PM)david.garrett84 Wrote:  I stopped using Facebook ages ago. What still surprises me about Slavs and Facebook, however, is the high level of collegiality between Slavs (especially Slavic girls) online, mixed with a simultaneous superficiality/fakeness in actual social interactions between them in real life. Occasions like weddings and some parties bring these folks together and they act like best friends, but I'm continually left with a sense it's all something of a show.

On the one hand, you think, "Wow, people in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, or Hungary [yes, I know Hungary isn't Slavic but bear with me] are so much nicer, friendlier, and egalitarian towards one another. This is the example the West should follow."

Yet, on the other, it's almost like a social ritual people pay lip service to but don't follow up on in terms of real-life contact. Even the EE participants buy the illusion they create.

I'll explain myself.

A Slavic girl, even the one you wouldn't expect to be popular, often gets hundreds of Facebook likes for their "glam" photos or hundreds of Facebook birthday wishes. Some of my exes would wish happy birthday to or like the photos of practically everyone they "knew".

Then I have had exes or mere bangs say things like, "Tereza and Marketa are my best friends." But when Friday or Saturday night came round, I would be fielding calls or texts from my girl of the moment complaining about how said Tereza and Marketa aren't taking her calls or responding to her texts. Wash, rinse, and repeat for a number of the many other EE girls I've been with.

It's weird and it has borne itself out over multiple girls, multiple EE countries, and multiple contexts (urban vs. rural girls, working-class girls versus middle-class ones etc).

I am not saying it's a Western-style "social and community bonds have weakened" thing. In fact, in some or many ways those EE community bonds are far stronger and more resilient. Nevertheless, there's still something extremely illusory about EE social circles or larger communities. It's like the people present images of unity and community spirit (esp in smaller towns and villages) but everyday interactions are intrinsically basic and non-profound, regardless of how deep they first appear.

I'm expressing myself somewhat vaguely, I know, yet it's hard to verbalize properly what I am trying to say.

It's a sort of culture where you see a lot more external cooperation and harmony but when push comes to shove, people have really few confidantes, at least not ones they can share the worst parts of life with for support.

Teresa and Marketa probably have something better to do, which is probably they are banging some guy, or are on the company of some cool local guys who will bang them. Opposite to western girls who give more value to what other people think about them, and think it is more important to "socialize" with some beta orbiters than be with a guy who bangs their brains out. In EE very few give a shit about what other people think.