Post: #26

(03-25-2017 04:57 AM)Tex Cruise Wrote:  

(03-25-2017 04:24 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  However, it functions as a useful Thought Construct because you can accurately-predict their behaviour with it, even down to how their denials of objective reality will be phrased. You can also accurately-predict the type of woman they'll end up in relationships with; the creeped-out unease they generate in normal women, and how to avoid being tarnished by association; and how not to trigger them into going on a lifelong jihad to try to destroy you in a workplace setting.

This is precisely what the rep point the other day from me was for.

I don't have anything to do with them any more, but I've come across a few. I'll try and put together a few stories for this thread.

If only I knew then what I know now...

Don't stress, mate. It was only meant as a light, fun thread, but, like model helicopters, it's probably not worth taking this shit too seriously, and I recognise I'm aging out of emotional investment in cultural investigation, criticism or protection.

I bought the Gamma's Gun after predicting I would be able to ages back on here, so, functionally, his tale is over.

Post: #27

What I like about Gammas is that they seem to be so prone to shitty luck that you could almost believe there's some sort of divine intervention at work.

The gamma friend I mentioned in the video game thread was the strongest of this archetype I've ever known, and he had the sort of bad luck I'd expect of someone who's previous incarnation was Stalin or Mao and who was bearing that karma as such.

I bought a motorcycle. He had to buy a bigger, more powerful one. Invariably it would break down persistently. He would never admit that he'd made the wrong choice. "Freak mechanical failure. Bike will be fine from now on. *CRACK clankclankclankclank* FUUUUUUCK!!!!!" Girls liked the way my bike looked better than his and would want to ride with me, not him (other reasons too, perhaps, but that was their excuse). Enter the long winded explanations of why his bike was superior. Imagine a grown ass man trying to explain engine displacement to a high school dropout hussy. He finally gets one to ride with him and barely escapes full scale catastrophe when his chain not only snaps but in doing so manages to lock up the back wheel at 100 kph. A feat the CIA themselves could not engineer if they got 10 tries.

Gamma luck! It's real!

Post: #28

I'd say that my natural form is gamma, actually. It's nothing something I'm proud of, but just how I am. Years of putting myself out there have made me far less awkward or vengeful than I am by nature but I occasionally get reminded of this when I see a raw gamma in the wild.

I haven't seen one in a long time in China because I usually stick with my closest friends but china is full of conniving un-redpilled gammas who will fuck you over in a split second.

I once went to a massive dinner with my old chinese coworkers to celebrate hitting budget. We got properly hammered and we were gonna go party at a KTV. The boss was this pretty cool chinese guy and he said that we were driving.

I got a bit scared cuz we were blitz. I spoke to another coworker and said, "he's not driving right?"

The coworker turns to the boss and yells, "Fortis thinks you're too drunk to drive!"

Suffice to say I was pretty aggravated the entire night.

Turns out the boss had called a driver to drive his car (and all of us) to the spot.

I just hate that snitch mentality that these guys have. He obviously did that to brown-nose with the boss. I let it go since I was too drunk to be smooth, but I always remember that shit as classic Gamma behavior.

Post: #29

Interesting topic. I wonder how this form of self-absorption and egoism is induced.

It sounds like a gamma is assuming the other person is not paying attention to him, and has to go over-the-top or otherwise he won't be noticed or acknowledged. Since everyone around him can see how hard he is trying, he comes across as lame. But that the gamma himself doesn't notice might mean his behaviour was functional in a previous context.

Maybe as a kid he had parents who didn't care enough, and he coped by increasing the intensity of his words and demeanour to be able to communicate the most basic of his needs. If this was successful he will continue to do it without reflecting on why he has to. A kid probably can't imagine his parents don't care enough about him to only pay attention when he is creating drama or speaking like what he has to say is important. So he just assumes that this is the way he needs to communicate with other people, while on the inside it doesn't feel "quite right".

Thoughts?

Post: #30

(03-25-2017 05:39 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  Don't stress, mate. It was only meant as a light, fun thread, but, like model helicopters, it's probably not worth taking this shit too seriously

No stress here now, I've had these types as co-workers and even bosses in the past and know exactly what you mean.
It bothered me at the time and if I'd just had a way to recognise the patterns 10 or 12 years ago....No different to red pill/game knowledge. If only I knew then....
Anyway, I'll try and remember a few amusing Gammecdotes ™ for this thread

Post: #31

Is the opposite of gamma, depression? The gamma does everything mentally to protect his self, where is the depressed seems to attack the self whenever possible. For example, being rejected by girl or friendship. The depressed would think he is not good enough for that person, the gamma sounds like he blinds himself to it by feelings of superiority.

Post: #32

Kinda?
The gamma IS depressed, at least in the sense that he's utterly miserable all the time. He knows, on some level, that he's a loser. That's why his psychological defenses are so strong, because he needs them to stay stable.

Post: #33

Gammas are nasty drunks?

I always thought you could tell a lot about people from how they act as drunks.

Gamma and other toxic people are nasty drunks, who spew bile and fuck things up when drunk. It's like they suddenly feel ok to let the mask drop and let everyone know exactly how great they are and how small others are. If it can be combined with another gamma favorite pasttime: not allowing others to have a good time without them, then that's just great, it's the drunk parent who has to ruin some family gathering or holiday, or the mate who gets drunk and tries to start fights with everyone, while staggering and spilling drinks on women. That's also sign, the fact that drunk gammas are repulsive to women.

Post: #34

The vindictiveness is hilariously juvenile at times. And not always triggered by sexual competition as in the OP - they do this stuff in the office as well.

I worked with one about 14 years ago. He's now mid-50s, about 50lbs overweight, constantly red-faced like he's about to explode. Back at that time, I had a magical opportunity to advance in the company, but our mutual boss was standing in the way because it would inconvenience him. So I pulled strings and got the transfer. The gamma, having been friendly enough up to that point and despite having no personal investment in the matter (I didn't work for him or on anything in his purview, we were just on the same project) immediately unpersoned me. For my last two weeks in that position he ignored me in conversations and meetings, and would even contrive reasons to come into our room and talk to my office mates - greeting each by name but me, and standing a couple feet from me, just barely out of my personal space, with his back turned to me to chat with them. Making it very clear that this was an intentional display of my having become invisible to him.

Two years later, his project was cancelled and he found a job on my project. Part of his job was to provide me routine updates on his part of this complex product design, so that all the other teams could keep their work in synch. He ignored my requests for input until things got so out of synch that management had to order him to do it, at which point he delegated it to someone else...who half-assed it because he'd specifically made it a low-priority task and ordered this person not to use the common method the other 7-8 teams used because it was "a waste of their time" (knowing it would cause me extra work). For the next five years, he still wouldn't make eye contact with me in the hallway, acknowledge my greetings or my presence, respond to my emails, interact with me in meetings, etc.

I left the company for another advancement and a year later had an opportunity to be brought in as a consultant on the old project by a former manager who liked me. Unfortunately, just as she started the paperwork, she had unwittingly hired the gamma into a related position. He found out and made it known to her that he would not work with me under any circumstances, leaving her no choice but to not issue the contract. This is more than eight years on.

His behavior was baffling until the gamma concept started making the rounds. In so many other ways he fit the bill, but this pointless and eternal vindictiveness was the most obvious and extreme. If nothing else, his example made me purge my own bad habit of holding trivial grudges and dwelling on unimportant slights.

ETA: one of the hallmarks of gamma behavior vs. others is that it's decidedly female. If you see how average women will backstab each other for social and sexual status, hold ferocious but absurd grudges, have hairtrigger sensitivity to any perceived slight, indulge in solipsism, have delusional perceptions of how amazing they are, etc. you will find the same thing in any gamma. In a sense, a gamma male is a man who has been born with or socialized into the same foundation-level female behavioral traits that good fathers struggle to socialize their daughters out of.

ETA2: and we've gotten two and a half pages into this and nobody has mentioned John Scalzi? Incredible.

Post: #35

On Vox's sexual partners numbering, he can't be right about absolutely everything. I'm trying to compare it to my own experience.

In my Gamma days, I racked up about ten women or so, fooled around with and made out with far more - and I'd lost my virginity very late at 20. This was probably purely due to luck (and due to the fact I was failing multiple classes because I focused so relentlessly on pussy). I almost never dated any of them more than a few times, and about 90 percent of the women I just mentioned were one-night stands...and that was her choice, not mine.

I'd also managed to bumble my way into a fraternity and make continuous social mistakes, but enough women who were sort of into me were at the parties. I had low standards but not zero standards. I slept in the 4 through 6 range, and the occasional 7. Almost never had to resort to fatties.

It's possible that when I was at my worst I was just a very socially awkward Delta, because a decent amount of women have always been into me. My uniquely bad upbringing handicapped me during the first half of my 20s.

Post: #36

I wish there was some kind of purging mechanism for these turds though. Like if someone engages in this pathetical passive aggressive turdism, it gets quietly detected, and they get socially excreted like the weak turds they are, or "guttered" as I call it.

This is why I love movies where these types get brutally ultamatumed.

"I've overserved you're being a passive aggressive dipshit to me. You'll now either openly express your grievance and engage in an open discussion, or you will deny this at your peril." With no eye contact, and looking around at other people, "sorry mate don't know what you mean". Followed by something involving a hammer or a sock full of ball bearings and then, "now, are you going to behave like a normal upstanding human being, or are you going to continue your weasel behavior?".

I finally get what type we're talking about here. These turds exist not just in the work place, they're experts at hiding their turdyness from new people they meet. I even openly confronted one of these recently in front of friends, who was cockblocking in a weasel manner, and he'd zombified some guy into his drone, "nah mate you can't talk about him like that, I'm getting angry now mate". To which I responded "you don't know shit about the backstory to this and I've known him longer than you". He was still ready to go though and I'd have really enjoyed that. The "gamma" himself would never have gone toe to toe. These fuckers are too weak and weasely, he'll just remember it and sneak it in again the next chance he has.

I guess this is why bullying was invented.

This is why checking if someone is able to take criticism is a critical part of screening new acquaintances.

Post: #37

Sounds like they'd make great Jihad warriors.

Post: #38

(03-25-2017 02:10 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  Sounds like they'd make great Jihad warriors.

"Good" for those on the receiving end, yes, because they'd be wholly ineffective in themselves and would destroy unit cohesion and operational effectiveness.

If you're an ISIS commander or what have you, they'd be the last kind you'd want for warriors. Now, cannon-fodder would be a good use for them. Not necessarily productive, but rewarding for everyone else in the organization.

Phoenix Wrote:...brutally ultamatumed....

I read that as "brutally ultratumed". Slang I'm disappointed doesn't actually exist.

Post: #39

(03-25-2017 10:12 AM)kbell Wrote:  Is the opposite of gamma, depression? The gamma does everything mentally to protect his self, where is the depressed seems to attack the self whenever possible. For example, being rejected by girl or friendship. The depressed would think he is not good enough for that person, the gamma sounds like he blinds himself to it by feelings of superiority.

This is very possibly true. There is a concept called Depressive Realism:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hid...ve-realism

The idea is that depressed people are depressed because they perceive reality better than most people:

Quote:In contrast, most non-depressed people have an unduly rose-tinted perspective on their attributes, circumstances, and possibilities. For instance, most people think that they are a better than average driver, citizen, or parent, collectively implying that the average driver, citizen, or parent is in fact not at all average—which is obviously a statistical impossibility! A couple on the verge of getting married is likely to overestimate the odds of having a sunny honeymoon or a gifted child but underestimate the odds of having a miscarriage, falling ill, or getting divorced. Such positive illusions, as they are called, are quite the norm, and the poisoned well of much of our self-esteem.

Quote:While people with depression can suffer from cognitive distortions, the scientific literature suggests that those with only mild-to-moderate depression can also have more accurate judgment about the outcome of so-called contingent events (events which may or may not occur), and a more realistic perception of their role, abilities, and limitations. This so-called 'depressive realism' may enable a person with depression to shed the Pollyanna optimism and rose-tinted spectacles that shield us from reality, to see life more accurately, and to judge it accordingly.

I read a study a while back where they took a group of people, had them interact, and then asked each person what the group thought of them. It turned out that normal people thought other people thought more highly of them than they actually did, whereas a depressed person was far more accurate on average than normal people were. If someone hated a normal person, they thought the person either liked them or was neutral towards them. The depressed person, on the other, would look at a person who hated them and say, "He hates me."

Post: #40

Great thread.

I have relative who I suspect is gamma, but he also has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).
Maybe its the same thing? Or they just overlap?

Quote:Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
- Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
- Requires excessive admiration
- Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
- Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
- Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
- Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

AnonymousBosch what's your take on this?

Post: #41

(03-25-2017 06:58 AM)Fortis Wrote:  I'd say that my natural form is gamma, actually. It's nothing something I'm proud of, but just how I am. Years of putting myself out there have made me far less awkward or vengeful than I am by nature but I occasionally get reminded of this when I see a raw gamma in the wild.

[Dot dot dot . . .]

I got a bit scared cuz we were blitz. I spoke to another coworker and said, "he's not driving right?"

The coworker turns to the boss and yells, "Fortis thinks you're too drunk to drive!"

With respect, Fortis, I think you are too self aware to be a gamma. The past is the past.

Would you currently say anything like:

Quote:The coworker turns to the boss and yells, "Fortis thinks you're too drunk to drive!"

If not, you are not gamma. A gamma will throw anyone under the bus at any time to make themselves look better. This is why even though they are pitiable, they deserve no pity.

We all have less than stellar personality traits, and from time to time, we can read a description of a gamma and wince inwardly and say to ourselves, "I have done that."

It is the wince that separates you from the true gamma.

Post: #42

(03-25-2017 03:22 PM)kiwi12 Wrote:  Great thread.

I have relative who I suspect is gamma, but he also has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).
Maybe its the same thing? Or they just overlap?

Quote:Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
- Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
- Requires excessive admiration
- Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
- Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
- Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
- Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

AnonymousBosch what's your take on this?

Those traits are very similar to those of a sociopath.

Post: #43

(03-25-2017 03:22 PM)kiwi12 Wrote:  Great thread.

I have relative who I suspect is gamma, but he also has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).
Maybe its the same thing? Or they just overlap?

Quote:Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
- Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
- Requires excessive admiration
- Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
- Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
- Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
- Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

AnonymousBosch what's your take on this?

All of those symptoms apply to the Gamma, but they manifest in a subtly different manner, and the internal mechanism's different.

The Narcissist is a pit of rage and self-loathing, who covers it up with a shell personality. The shell is charismatic and outgoing, and in no way held back by objective reality. They constantly talk about their plans and their successes, while ignoring their flaws, and in the short-term they can be wildly successful. Their grandiose vision will tend to attract accomplished individuals, and so long as things are going well they'll be able to maintain the illusion that they're a real person.

Then something happens which 'exposes' the truth about them; it shatters their shell, and all of the narcissistic rage comes pouring out onto whomever is closest. Other people don't really exist for the Narcissist; they're nothing but mirrors, either reflecting the illusion, or the true inner core.

Like all Type IIs, it's hard to say if the Narcissist actually exists as a person, or if they're just a zombie, nothing more than brain chemicals and learned behaviours. You will never see a soul in a narcissist; the closest you can get is their rage as they attempt to murder you. The Gamma, on the other hand, is definitely a person; just a nasty, hell-bound person.

The Gamma is the opposite of depressive realism. They're utterly miserable, but they'll never admit it. They lumber about, rationalizing their failures into successes. Couldn't get laid at the bar? That's because the woman suffered false consciousness, and pursued an abusive asshole. Failure as an artist? That's because he's too avante guard. While the Narcissist will lash out in rage upon being exposed, it's a blind rage; other people don't really exist in their mind, and they'll lash out at whomever is most convenient. The Gamma, meanwhile, will target a single person.

The Narcissist's shell cracks because of an undeniable failure that they can't lie their way around. The Gamma cracks when intimacy proves his own delusions false. Typically this happens when a well meaning friend offers good advice. An insult or a criticism will only be used as evidence to prove his rationalizations; good advice cuts to his core and exposes him to himself as the failure that he is.

The Narcissist is worried about others seeing him for what he is; the Gamma is terrified of seeing himself. And where the Narcissist will lash out randomly, the Gamma will now focus on, and obsess over the person who forced him to admit that he was a failure.

This core of irrationality - this need to preserve the false self-image - is what makes Gammas so dangerous and impossible to negotiate with.

Negotiations boil down to "Do this, get a carrot, do this, get the stick." The Gamma - because he refuses to admit that he could ever be second place at anything - will refuse to acknowledge the existence of the stick. Pull a shotgun on him, and say "Get off my lawn!" and he will feel compelled to prove that the shotgun doesn't really exist, that it isn't truly a threat to the Secret King. He will start advancing on you to prove this to himself.

I'm going to have to think about this a bit more, but I think the carrot is the better strategy to use. Promise the Gamma some paltry bit of ego validation and he'll do whatever you say; make a threat and he'll go out of his way to force your hand.

Great thread by the way; so long as Gammas are at a distance they're hilarious.

Post: #44

This has been implied by the earlier posts in the thread, but I'll add this - Gammas abhor the idea of failure and giving up, and would rather jump off of a building than ever admit they lost at something.

A Gamma would rather die in a catastrophic and pointless Charge of the Light Brigade than ever make a strategic retreat. The Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, fighting after he's lost all four limbs? Gamma all the way.





This reminds me of sophomore year in high school, where an acquaintance of mine in math class was a carbon copy of a Gamma. He tried valiantly to get involved in a social circle that hated him and wanted nothing to do with him - resulting in his constant complaining. By spring semester, his only friend in the circle had gotten tired of his shit and told him to fuck off, ruining his already pathetic social life.

Around this point I stopped talking to him, but heard through people that his solution was pretty incredible. He refused to look for new friends and just passive-aggressively buzzed around the social group for the final two years of high school, thinking that he'd at best get credit for not giving up, and at worst get a rise out of some of them and live rent-free in their heads. (Neither happened - they pretty consistently ignored his ass, and smiled as he squirmed.)

He had plenty of opportunities to make new friends and date other girls during all of this, and passed up all of them to pursue his retarded little jihad full time.

Post: #45

(03-25-2017 12:59 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  ...I even openly confronted one of these recently in front of friends, who was cockblocking in a weasel manner, and he'd zombified some guy into his drone, "nah mate you can't talk about him like that, I'm getting angry now mate". To which I responded "you don't know shit about the backstory to this and I've known him longer than you". He was still ready to go though and I'd have really enjoyed that. The "gamma" himself would never have gone toe to toe. These fuckers are too weak and weasely, he'll just remember it and sneak it in again the next chance he has.
...

Incredible. Their behaviour is so female oriented that they inspire white-knight tendencies in other men

Solution. "Are you white-knighting for a dude, Lancelot? Have I stumbled into the middle of some sort of pseudo-homosexual relationship? Or can gamma stand up for himself?"

Post: #46

Appreciate the kind words, Debequiled.

Yeah, I know I am not a gamma, I should probably say that I expressed gamma traits in my life until I decided to take control and be a man instead of thinking the world owed me anything.

Anyway, that coworker was pure gamma. Had we been back home I would have invited him to drinks one night and given him some choice words about how that sort of shit is handled. Backstabbing one of 5 foreigners in the company is a good way to make enemies.

Post: #47

I can see that about depressive type of people seeing more objective reality if not severe depression. Although if its clinical depression, its more cognitive distortions like negative filters of everything that happens, or predicting bad outcomes. The depressed person at times has that realistic thinking or go further and think everybody hates them. I don't think depressed people are afraid of themselves like narcissist and gammas though.

How do you stop doing gamma traits?

Post: #48

I think in the long term, you have to grow out of the false reality, the same way you might've had an imaginary friend when you were a lonely 3-year old, but you obviously don't anymore.

If a gamma were to actually follow like Roosh's old plan, where you worked out, read a bunch of books, and went and interacted with a hundred girls, that would go a long way towards removing gamma tendencies.

But if you have the self-awareness required to start a project like that, you're already halfway out of the gamma bubble to begin with, or maybe you were never in it at all.

Post: #49

Agreed. I think many gammas are self-aware enough but they're too cowardly to try to change things. I certainly had a hard time jumping off the deck and into the water when I was starting out.

Post: #50

The main sort of characteristic of a gamma comes in to play in a situation that happened earlier today.

Was going to go to a concert with a chick that hit me up last second about it. I get to the door and turns out tickets at the door were sold out. I stick around to chat atleast a bit until some more people we were supposed to go with come around.

She mentions that originally a guy hit her up after his break up and to get over it wanted to hang with her just to "vent" as she did too recently. Guy bought the ticket too. I'm personally a bit steamed that I'll probably lose out on the bang to this guy due to a circumstance of fate even though she technically invited me and prefers me to him.

So here are 2 options:

A. Poison the well and tell her he's using her as a rebound and risk a fight since he's a "friend" of hers. And essentially nuke the interaction with no foreseeable benefit to myself.

B. Charge it to the game knowing I can always hit it at some other point or score some new pussy elsewhere. No need to burn a bridge unnecessarily as a young, hot chick is useful in 50 different ways. Her brother is also one of these people I've met recently that would make a really good friend.

I went with option B obviously.


The gamma on the other hand would go with option A without hesitation full well knowing the very obvious pros of not doing so.

I think the gamma is the kind of guy who is just a cunt to be a cunt because they're miserable. They're the deep dark nasty part of a human being brought about through abject misery.