Post: #1

So I was watching this video over at the Video Games thread. Spokepoker posted it and I think it touches on a broader issue.

(01-13-2017 09:51 PM)spokepoker Wrote:  I was watching youtube videos of "Onward" fps vr game, it looked interesting, but watching it as a video it made me fairly queasy with all the camera/head movement.

edit;

...

This commentary jumped out at me.

@1:42 "The first time I got shot at... I literally dove to the ground in real life. I couldn't sleep that night because my blood pressure was so high. The anxiety I got from it..."

So, I've officially entered old man territory now where I find myself asking "is this just a little bit too real? Here's another video.





Note that one of the participants literally goes foetal and sobs uncontrollably. Now, I've played survival horror games before, including the genuinely creepy ones that don't involve guns and zombies. Without going out of my way to sound like a softcock, they're not exactly kind to your heart rate. The developers that make them really know their stuff. Without going into detail, one of these games caused a friend of mine to have a serious and ongoing phobia of rope, and he was no milquetoast.

But this?

Here's the point of this thread. I think people are genuinely underestimating the kind of psychological effect that playing this type of game could have on them. Depending on how real the mil-sim games get you could see a similar issues popping up with those too. Imagine if they face mapped your best friend and you watched his head explode a few hundred times a day during the latest COD match. Would you just shrug it off or would it seriously change the way you looked at him in real life?

What do you guys think? Am I just getting too old or are we looking at a stage where entertainment technology is becoming genuinely and immediately dangerous to people's mental health?

Are we going to see PTSD sufferers who have never actually been in combat and grown adults develop severe and crippling phobias in conjunction with VR use?

On another note, could these technologies be leveraged to create people that would pull triggers in real life without the slightest hesitation?

Post: #2

I like video games occasionally but I will not be playing any VR games. Good old screen for me.

Post: #3

That's a pretty interesting question.

PTSD increased with the industrialisation of warfare - we are talking World War I, where there stress was chronical and there hardly was any downtime from potential danger (in historical wars, fighting stopped when it got dark so you had the had the night off and could come down).

Long term effects are thinkable with VR, but I wouldn't overestimate them. The guy basically said he got used to it and wants to continue playing (however, getting hooked on the adrenaline is a thing, too).

In his books "On Combat" and "On Killing" Grossman talked about desensitization and combat induced stress. While these books and are controversial and the propositions are not universally accepted, they offer some good food for thought. Grossman argues that these kind of Video Games actively contribute to desensitization - again, it's controversial.

For me personally, VR MilSims sound awesome and I'm going definitely going to play it. If you play it with your mates it's a good tactical training. Combining it with real life weapon usage and you can prepare for SHTF scenarios.

Horror Games, at the other hand, are a different kind of animal, as they really push the limits of our psychology. Especially when it's like real life.

Your brain can't distinguish between virtually induced stress and real stress (a Tiger chasing you). If there's no outlet or its chronical, your mental stability will suffer.

I guess we have to see what comes out of it. I think moderation, control and self discipline are paramount when dealing with modern technology and its progress.

Post: #4

Interesting, imagine playing a game like Alien Isolation in full VR.

Post: #5

The mental disorders already exist now with addiction to the internet, specifically unlimited porn/masturbating for men, and endless social media for women.
Both of these change the dopamine receptors in male and female brains and cause brain damage.
These is one of the main reasons why people don't have eye contact nowadays and young couples do not fall in love anymore.

I wrote about it in detail here:

/thread-12879...pid1463542

Virtual reality will make it much, much worse.
Avoid it unless you want permanent brain damage.

Post: #6

I am more scared about virtual reality porn that will happen 100% in near future.

Leonard has good point regarding "face mapping". I think technology will be pretty advanced where you could create avatar in this game which looks exactly like you/your friends and I agree that it will be pretty weird seeing your friend (and him seeing you) getting killed on regular basis and then in real life talk like nothing is wrong.
After some time I expect some sort of disorder to develop where you will fail sometimes to differentiate reality from game. Of course, nightmares will be regular.

Post: #7

I want to get 360' camera. I have a few ideas...

Post: #8

Great thread, and it brings up things that I never thought of.
I think "DevilDogGamer" was deployed, I know he was in the service, I never took the time to see if he saw action.
VR could either be a horrible thing, or a great thing, pertaining to PTSD. We need more research, to see how it affects those with it (I'm not talking about SJW triggers, but true PTSD).
Will it help normalize their condition? To help them live with it by falsely living through it over and over again, experiencing the trauma falsely, so the trauma become false, so their stressed brain chemistry levels out? Or will it make them worse? Their neurons and receptors being over taxed from experiencing the trauma?

If it helps war vet PTSD, can it help other kinds of traumatic suffering? I think all we can do is wait and see, if the market becomes viable, more people will use it, and we will have more feedback as to its effects. Or if a college uses it for study.

Post: #9

Owning a HTC Vive, I don't believe VR will cause mental disorders to anybody (well, except nausea for poorly optimised games, < 90 FPS).
It's like saying that playing video games make people violent : it's a myth.
I played a lot of Mario and didn't become a plumber either.

I made multiple girls play a VR horror game (The Brookhaven Experiment) and one screamed in terror, foetal position on the ground.
She never plays video games, so her brain isn't used to alternative realities.
After being scared, she laughed it off, as any normal human being would.
The fear wore off, like in any other situation, and she didn't get nightmares nor PTSD syndrome.

It's the same reaction than watching a horror movie.
Some scream and even get nightmares during that night.
They don't get mental disorders from it.
And if they do, there already was something fucked up in their brain, prior to this experience.

PS : I'll add that virtual porn will absolutely be a HUGE thing in the near future.
To be 100% honest, I tried a few games / movies and the experience is indeed much more immersive than being separated from the screen.
Expect porn addiction to rise, especially among younger men.
Still, it'll be linked to porn, not specifically to VR.

Edit : my comment is only linked to the current VR technology.
The day we'll be able to add VR into our normal life (via electronic contact lenses for example), things might get a lot trickier.

Post: #10

It won't bring anything good. I plan to remain one of the elite who look with disdain on the fantasy consumers.

Post: #11

(01-14-2017 09:57 PM)Latan Wrote:  Edit : my comment is only linked to the current VR technology.
The day we'll be able to add VR into our normal life (via electronic contact lenses for example), things might get a lot trickier.

Or like those VR booths that everyone lives in, in the future, so they are robots that do everything in life, like in that Bruce Willis movie I can't remember the name of.

Post: #12

100% when it begins to simulate real-life to the extent visually it's indistinguisable from real-life, especially once omnidirectional treadmills are prevalent and there's realistic sensory feedback:


Many vets come back with serious phobias and PTSD. If your senses are unable to distinguish virtual reality from reality in a shooting game like in the OP, there's no way that you won't also have the risk of developing these types of mental disorders too.

Post: #13

There have already been studies done as to the shortening of attention spans due to constantly planing with our phones and other devices. I'm sure the immersive nature of VR will further that trend. Those who will resist will be all the stronger for it. Do you think the elites let their kids become mindless zombies via tech? I think not.

Post: #14

Maybe I'm just morbid, but anytime I see a new piece of technology being advertised, my first thought is to wonder how long before it is either used for something bad, or has an (un)intended negative consequence.

I remember seeing a commercial where a cell phone provider was advertising the ability to track its phones (on the same calling plan), and of course, that feature was portrayed in a positive light -- a parent being able to track down the whereabouts of their child who had wandered off. It doesn't take much imagination, however, to imagine how that same technology might be used in a negative way.

I'm sure virtual reality will be no different.

Post: #15

We've covered similar topics in other threads in the deep forum about the effect of technology on the destruction of culture. I think VR is just another progression in the same sense that smartphones were; an addictive distraction that interferes with our minds operating as they did before electronics.

In particular I think 'the medium is the message' in the sense that eventually VR will provide an overstimulation of our nervous systems which will change the physical structures of our brains (See: The Shallows by Nicholas Carr). Too much dopamine through virtual experiences will make real experiences more boring and less motivating. Everything from relationships to work and chores will be harder to do because it doesn't come close to the bar for an interesting day.

'Addiction' will happen in some people, but that term doesn't do justice to explaining the insidious effects that unmoderated VR could have on the quality of life for a heavy user. In fiction VR experiences have been explored and in so many of them it is labeled as a highly illegal or addictive drug that its users prefer over the real world (Black Mirror Season 3, ShadowRun, Red Dwarf - Better than Life etc).

Its telling that some of the people I know that are most looking forward to VR are the one's with boring lives of drudgery.

Once they iron the bugs out and it becomes more immersive, VR will be to videogames like crack is to pot. Handle with care, and regulate your children's use.

EDIT: To answer the OP's question. Yes I think VR will be a trigger for mental health issues in the same way that certain drugs and activities currently are. Many people are genetically predisposed to mental health problems which develop after environmental factors come into play.

I was on a 10 day meditation retreat once and a room mate had a full blown psychotic breakdown with no prior history of mental illness or drug use. No drugs, no war/violence, just peaceful concentration. Granted meditating is a stronger mental exercise than many give it credit for, but if a lack of stimulation can cause your mind to break, an overstimulation should more easily do the same thing.

Post: #16

In before any deep discussion about us already being in a simulation...?

Post: #17

Watching the vid, my first concern is with physical safety. Plugged into Virtual Reality world like that, presumably unable to see your actual surroundings, what's to prevent someone from tripping over the coffee table or smacking into a wall?

Post: #18

(01-16-2017 12:21 AM)Scoundrel Wrote:  Watching the vid, my first concern is with physical safety. Plugged into Virtual Reality world like that, presumably unable to see your actual surroundings, what's to prevent someone from tripping over the coffee table or smacking into a wall?

The Vive has a Chaperone system, which highlights predefined walls inside the cask, when you're close to hitting your head into one.
You can also activate a camera in front of the cask, to see outside at any moment : no need to take it out to grab an object or talk to someone.

Post: #19

VR is a bullshit concept that doesn't improve gaming quality at all, no matter how "realistic" it becomes. The marginal benefit of piling on more and more visual effects is 1% of what a good story or polished gameplay rules can provide.

I won't have any pity for people that get stuck in this circus and develop PTSD or whatnot.

Post: #20

(01-16-2017 12:02 AM)Speculation Wrote:  ...
Once they iron the bugs out and it becomes more immersive, VR will be to videogames like crack is to pot. Handle with care, and regulate your children's use.
...

As a father I'm very careful to regulate my children's use of both crack AND pot.

But seriously, I get what you're saying.

Post: #21

Edit : nevermind, everyone his own opinion.

Post: #22

As Latan said, unless you have already have mental disorders - like something that makes it difficult to separate real and fantasy perhaps - VR is just a more lifelike version of watching a movie.
I have a Playstation VR and Gear VR and despite my mostly negative opinion of first generation home VR (haven't used the PSVR since November, rarely use the Gear VR either - visual quality hasn't lived up to my modest prior expectation, along with various other quirks of the technology) I've been awestruck by an underwater coral reef expedition on the PSVR while a great white shark was circling my cage, been very uncomfortable sitting tied to a chair in a dark, run down kitchen while some female thing was stabbing a guy to death right in front of me, and I've a few times instinctively reached out to try to touch a naked girl in 3D VR porn on the Gear VR because my brain was very close to the line of telling me there was in fact a girl in front of me.

At its best and most convincing - with games good graphics and as sharp as the current gen VR headsets will allow and with VR video, porn or otherwise, well filmed with proper attention to scale and camera position - VR really can provide stunning experiences and make you feel "there" in a way that can't genuinely be described (well, I guess you can obviously compare it to a low fidelity version of reality with limitations on your choices) but has to be seen. There's a proper sense of scale and VR 3D provides actual lifelike depth and not the layered diorama you know from 3D cinema and TV.
Regardless of that though, unless you're on psychedelic drugs or severely mentally ill your conscious mind still knows it's not reality it's looking at but just a fancier version of a flat screen.

I do foresee extensive VR porn addiction becoming a problem for many over the coming years though. But it's not like that's not already an issue with regular porn anyway. And since there's still no tactile feedback, VR again merely provides a fancier viewing method and anyone who can get laid will still go out and get laid. And I don't really think that will change even if or when we do get full sensory virtual worlds (or at least by then we'll be in the realms of sci-fi movies and I'll refrain to speculate on how that will influence human behaviour on a large scale).

For now though, aside from the technical limitations, is the fact (well, perhaps more my opinion) that there's a very limited selection of great and interesting content and, particularly with smartphone VR, too much shovelware.