Post: #401

(04-14-2018 05:40 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  That FAQ does not back up what you are claiming, not does it disprove what I'm saying.

It is common that you will not find any evidence that someone was killed from 1933 to 1945 in europe. (Or later if they were killed in russian soviet gulags)

However, you will always find some evidence that a real physical person existed in a certain place in europe sometime between the mid to late 1930s in archives/books/records/paper trails before WW2 started.

The idea that there is ZERO trace of a person (over age 6) who lived somewhere legally in 1930s europe is ludicrous.
There is always some sort of evidence to be found for the existence of a person from that time.

I thought it would answer some of your questions about the difficulties of establishing an exhaustive list of names.

Post: #402

(04-14-2018 06:38 PM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(04-13-2018 07:44 PM)Kona Wrote:  

(04-13-2018 11:00 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  the official holocaust name databases that exist only reach 4 and half million names at most.

None the less, if the vast left-wing conspiracy's major argument is a numbers thing, between 4.5 and 6 million, thats a little much. Just let them have their 6 if that's the case. Tie goes to the runner.

I'll engage in some angels dancing on the head of a pin, Aquinas style.

Point: As if 4 vs 6 million makes a difference, either way it is sick butchery and must never be allowed to happen again!

Counterpoint: If it WAS 4, and yet you continue to say 6 million instead, and constantly browbeat and shut-down those who want clarification... why is that? Obviously 4 million people killed systematically is a horrible thing. What is the purpose of jigging up the number even higher (and then brooking no discussion)?

What you just wrote here was exactly what I was trying to say. Minus the pin head Aquarius stuff, as I don't know what the hell that means.

Let's not deny bad shit happened. But they don't come out and try to force in on you that 50k people died in 9/11, they got an accurate number. Why do it with this Holocaust.

Aloha!

Post: #403

More shut up and just accept that 6 million jews died because why else would this event get named “The Holocaust” if it weren’t for such a large number.

Truth Teller, How can you just expect people to accept that because it’s tedious to identify these people that everyone should just shut up and say “6 million jews died”?

I’m with Mercenary and I’m sorry for that fellow up there who lost his distant relatives but this number that get bandied about is made up to push and agenda the same way 1 in 4 women in college will be raped pushes an agenda.

Post: #404

(04-14-2018 07:18 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Truth Teller, How can you just expect people to accept that because it’s tedious to identify these people that everyone should just shut up and say “6 million jews died”?

I don't. If you look at the FAQ I provided, it says the death toll is determined via pre-war vs. post-war censes and known deportation numbers.

Identifying dead is incredibly tedious in the best of times. Hell, there are still unknown war dead from Korea.

Post: #405

(04-14-2018 03:44 PM)Syberpunk Wrote:  I thought they were proud of what they were doing!

They were, but they knew the outside world (and Germans in general) wouldn't agree. Do you want some quotes and testimonials, or would you just dismiss them as made up?

(04-14-2018 02:04 PM)Pride male Wrote:  Even if the Holocaust happened what makes it more tragic than the innumerable genocides that have occured throughout history?

It isn't. It just happened in Europe in living memory. The same way we care more when 20 kids are blown up in England in a concert hall compared to 200 in Afghanistan. It's closer to home. Plus, Jewish people have a lot of power in Hollywood etc.

Truth Teller, if I were you, I'd stop wasting your time. There's certain people in this thread (not necessarily just recently, go back to page 1) and on others like it who will never, ever be convinced about gas chambers and stuff—acknowledging any of it would mean shifting their worldview more than their egos(?) can handle. I've tried, using first hand testimonials etc and they just wave it away as "fabricated" or "taken under duress". I'm not talking about guys like Merc and Fisto here by the way...it's obvious who I'm referring to.

I've dipped my toes into the alt right-proper (the ideology to which these people subscribe to) over the past year and a lot of it is nasty stuff, with a lot of people who are adept at "hiding their power level" (I.E. Not saying what they really, truly, believe). Mark Collett comes to mind (I've posted a few of his videos, he's a bright guy, but he's also at the very least a Nazi sympathiser - his girlfriend has a swastika on her chest for god's sake). I agree with Roosh and Aurini, it's not a good place. That's not to say I disagree with everything they talk about - Millennial Woes makes great videos, though again, I'm not on board with much of it. Anyway, I'm out.

Post: #406

(04-14-2018 11:47 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(04-14-2018 07:18 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Truth Teller, How can you just expect people to accept that because it’s tedious to identify these people that everyone should just shut up and say “6 million jews died”?

I don't. If you look at the FAQ I provided, it says the death toll is determined via pre-war vs. post-war censes and known deportation numbers.

Identifying dead is incredibly tedious in the best of times. Hell, there are still unknown war dead from Korea.

Except Koreans already had a country.

Jews used this event to carve out Israel for themselves so it seems to me the reasons should be legitimate.

I’m sure you aren’t crazy about the US being suckered into wars like Iraq for WMDs that “experts” said existed but didn’t.

This is why your responses irk me. You dismiss accurate death tolls requests because they’re “difficult” while also trying to shut down the discussion with “you’re foolish for not trusting the experts”.

I thought historians were all about creating areas of expertise but none seem interested in tracking down the real number of dead?

Wouldn’t that be a great Doctoral Thesis or whatever Ph.d guys do to be “experts”?

Post: #407

(12-31-2016 05:26 AM)britchard Wrote:  If you are suggesting that the Holocaust was a hoax, then you are suggesting that thousands of American, Canadian and British soldiers from the war are all liars.

I'd be interested to know if any of the deniers on this forum have ever met a holocaust survivor? Well I have, and he told me he believed that the 6 million figure was for the total number of holocaust victims, NOT the total number of Jews. He estimated it was around 3-4 million Jews and the rest were mostly just Slavs. The disabled and gypsies only made up a small number of the murders.

The post quoted is from the first page of the thread, just before the "neo-nazi weirdos", as I call them on Truth Teller's rep point, got involved. This is what I believe, and I suspect this figure is what guys like Fisto etc believe also.

Post: #408

(04-15-2018 01:06 PM)Fisto Wrote:  This is why your responses irk me. You dismiss accurate death tolls requests because they’re “difficult” while also trying to shut down the discussion with “you’re foolish for not trusting the experts”.

I thought historians were all about creating areas of expertise but none seem interested in tracking down the real number of dead?

Wouldn’t that be a great Doctoral Thesis or whatever Ph.d guys do to be “experts”?

It's been done multiple times. There are multiple books determining the number of dead. I can name three or four of them.

There are accurate numbers of the dead, you're misrepresenting my view.

Post: #409

Teedub- That is exactly right and I think I’m done with this too for the time being.

Post: #410

Aye to that, me also.

Post: #411

I bet all these denialists and truthers would shit themsleves if you questioned them in person. It's easy to talk shit behind a key board like some of you guys on here. What is there to debate about the Holocaust? Ah yes, it was a Jewish conspiracy to create Israel....

Post: #412

(04-15-2018 01:06 PM)Fisto Wrote:  Jews used this event to carve out Israel for themselves so it seems to me the reasons should be legitimate.

The Jews were already well on the path of creating a state by the time the holocaust started. And after the war it was only a matter of time until the UK withdrew from Mandatory Palestine, as it did from nearly every other corner of its former empire, and a Jewish state could be founded.

That's not to say that there was no political benefit to Israel from the holocaust. It did help sway public opinion in favor of creating a Jewish state, and possibly helped the 1947 partition plan gain support at the UN.
The German reparations money was also very helpful for the new and impoverished state, though not receiving it would probably not have meant a death sentence for Israel. In fact it was a highly divisive topic in the Israeli public opinion, almost to the point of an insurrection. The opposition was against it, and leader of the right wing opposition, Begin, called it blood money and used other strong terms in front of a large and violent protest, urging the protestors to surround the parliament building.

As for the numbers debate - I find the conspiratorial tone of some of the posts here odd. As if inflating the number of victims from say 4 or 5 million to 6 would actually make a significant change in public opinion to the benefit of Israel or Jews in general. Not only that, but it also seems that the six million figure originated in the testimonies of Nazi officials in Nuremberg trails and in the Eichmann trail. Specifically the testimony of Wilhelm Höttl.

Post: #413

(04-15-2018 03:32 PM)bws8118 Wrote:  I bet all these denialists and truthers would shit themsleves if you questioned them in person. It's easy to talk shit behind a key board like some of you guys on here. What is there to debate about the Holocaust? Ah yes, it was a Jewish conspiracy to create Israel....

Would you like my address?

Sunday barbeque, Busch beer, and bitching about the Jews is all I got going today.

Aloha!

Post: #414

This is a very interesting thread that is sort of a punch in the gut.

Having followed it and looked at most of the supporting material, I am forced to admit that my knowledge of World War II was only formed by the popular narrative and not a fair or complete consideration of history. It is an almost shameful feeling. I have actually read a couple books about WW2, but they were more episodic and not comprehensive.

I thought the allies entered the war with knowledge of and primarily motivated by the Nazi camps. I did not know that the allies, both Soviet and US, committed mass atrocities against the Germans. I also did not know about the Bolshevik Revolution in Germany starting in 1918.

That all seems patently very relevant. Therefore I must regretfully conclude that history and manufactured popular opinion in the west is not about teaching truth. Then from there I must conclude that we have been manipulated, though I would have to put in a lot more time to understand the precise motives.

I am not prepared to say Hitler wasn't evil. However, being brutalized in WW1 and then seeing a million-strong army of Jews try to take over Germany would go a long way in explaining why he did what he did.

It is also clear that right here is the point where the "truth tellers" and righteous defenders of the Holocaust will start madly typing paragraphs against me for being an independent thinking person.

I guess it shows that grand narratives really are powerful, and people (including me) can be taken in without knowing it. The only way forward is to always be willing to discard old knowledge when given the opportunity.

Post: #415

(04-15-2018 06:04 PM)MidJack Wrote:  This is a very interesting thread that is sort of a punch in the gut.

Having followed it and looked at most of the supporting material, I am forced to admit that my knowledge of World War II was only formed by the popular narrative and not a fair or complete consideration of history. It is an almost shameful feeling. I have actually read a couple books about WW2, but they were more episodic and not comprehensive.

I thought the allies entered the war with knowledge of and primarily motivated by the Nazi camps. I did not know that the allies, both Soviet and US, committed mass atrocities against the Germans. I also did not know about the Bolshevik Revolution in Germany starting in 1918.

That all seems patently very relevant. Therefore I must regretfully conclude that history and manufactured popular opinion in the west is not about teaching truth. Then from there I must conclude that we have been manipulated, though I would have to put in a lot more time to understand the precise motives.

I am not prepared to say Hitler wasn't evil. However, being brutalized in WW1 and then seeing a million-strong army of Jews try to take over Germany would go a long way in explaining why he did what he did.

It is also clear that right here is the point where the "truth tellers" and righteous defenders of the Holocaust will start madly typing paragraphs against me for being an independent thinking person.

I guess it shows that grand narratives really are powerful, and people (including me) can be taken in without knowing it. The only way forward is to always be willing to discard old knowledge when given the opportunity.

Its the foundation myth for everything in our society, the Nazi's and the term itself became the gold standard of evil to which every controversial idea proposed is compared, and allows those opinions to be cast away.

I apologise, It wasn't my intention to comes across as snippy to Truth Teller.

The war in retrospect if the stories of "holocaust" camps were just work camps for ammunition/POW would make it hard to justify the war in the long view, I honestly believe it made easier to justify we were the good guys and that we all the millions of men who died throwing themselves into gunfire, was all worth it in the face of clear evil such as mass gassings. Look at what average people know about WW1, they barely care because its just another war to them, there's no clearly defined bad guy. Its Terminator 1 to Terminator 2, WW1 is just a bit too unpolished (and eerie) for mass consumption compared to WW2.

Without the holocaust, WW2 becomes hard to explain to the ordinary person, too relativistic. Banking? Boring. Rothchild? Too complicated. Usury? What's that? The capstone or epilogue of the holocaust makes it clear that we fought at all no matter what the cost to ourselves, blows away all ambiguity. Think of it as the big blow out, the great reveal, the grand finale, that's needed, a story and tale so horrific and grueling but ultimately deep inspiring that would last the ages and would be told to your children and your children's children.

Now imagine instead returning to the Shire but you could never see the grand defeat of Sauron on screen. In fact imagine the defeat of Sauron as not grand at all, just bland hand to hand fist fights with nameless faceless cliched looking men.

That is WW2 without the holocaust.

Post: #416

(04-14-2018 03:34 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(04-14-2018 03:23 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  If a jewish person was living anywhere in europe legally in the 1930s, he was registered somewhere and those records still exist in one form or another today. There is no location in europe that has huge gaps in records of residents in the 1930s that would account for thousands, let alone millions of missing dead (disappeared) people.

Think about this carefully. The Nazis were known to destroy records. It is well-known that the Nazis burned villages in Belorussia, Poland, and the Baltic states. I think 600 were destroyed in Belorussia alone. You're committing a survivorship fallacy, just because certain records survived doesn't mean they all survived.

How do you know that the allies didn't for a fact destroy historical records themselves?

   

G

Post: #417

Jews are the ones making the Holocaust into a big deal. I grew up half-Jewish (on dad's side and Russian Orthodox on my mother's). I would hear about the Holocaust 24/7. Then it was beaten into my head in public schools and university.

Shut...the....fuck....up.

I love the Japanese attitude. These people had atomic bombs dropped on their asses and not a word of complaint since. No major Hollywood dramas, no "Never Again" bullshit etc. They got over it. Some nations are predisposed to grudgeholding - Jews are a prime example. Another one is Albanians with their animus and butthurt towards Serbs.

Post: #418

Truth Teller...can you take me off your ignore list so that I can reply to your PM

Post: #419

(04-17-2018 03:12 AM)Teedub Wrote:  Truth Teller...can you take me off your ignore list so that I can reply to your PM

I've taken you off. I don't remember why I put you on in the first place.

Post: #420

(04-14-2018 07:18 PM)Fisto Wrote:  More shut up and just accept that 6 million jews died because why else would this event get named “The Holocaust” if it weren’t for such a large number.

Truth Teller, How can you just expect people to accept that because it’s tedious to identify these people that everyone should just shut up and say “6 million jews died”?

I’m with Mercenary and I’m sorry for that fellow up there who lost his distant relatives but this number that get bandied about is made up to push and agenda the same way 1 in 4 women in college will be raped pushes an agenda.

They're not comparable at all, made-up college rape statistics and the number of Jews killed in World War II.

For college "rape", the likely victimization rate is around 1 in 1,000, 250 times less than the 1 in 4 figure bandied about. And many amongst that raped super-minority are raped by non-college students, too, particularly if they live off-campus.

It would be a good analogy if, instead of six million, only 24,000 Jews (1/250th of six million) really died. And that's just plain farcical to me.

Even if you dispute the six million figure, a very large number of Jews perished through a deliberate policy of extermination via shooting, neglect (starvation, disease etc), or gassing.

Can those questioning the six million figure indicate what number of Jews supposedly died? If you've already stated your figure, please state it again, as this thread is pretty hard reading.

The difference between two, three, four or six million Jews dying is, aside from the human tragedy aspect of it, more irrelevant than it first appears. It still represents a policy of mass extermination and I have no clue what goals many people in this thread have by questioning the six million figure. Will four or five somehow change the landscape? I doubt it.

When you consider that Poland lost three million Catholic Slavs out of 27 million during World War II (11% of that population), the idea that the vast majority of the much more hated three million Polish Jews died is hardly fanciful.

Post: #421

/\ I agree that it's apalling regardless of whether the true figure is 3 million, 1 million or half a million.
It's still horrific..
The issue a lot of ordinary people have is how the 6 million figure is pushed relentlessly by the media and some politicians even as it's been acknowledged already several years ago at Auschwitz and other camps that the real figure is significantly less than six million.
It's the way this six million figure is used to guilt Europeans and especially Germans into collective responsibility that almost nobody alive today bears any responsibility for.
It's a vicious and very destructive lie.

Post: #422

(04-19-2018 12:55 PM)amity Wrote:  /\ I agree that it's apalling regardless of whether the true figure is 3 million, 1 million or half a million.
It's still horrific..
The issue a lot of ordinary people have is how the 6 million figure is pushed relentlessly by the media and some politicians even as it's been acknowledged already several years ago at Auschwitz and other camps that the real figure is significantly less than six million.
It's the way this six million figure is used to guilt Europeans and especially Germans into collective responsibility that almost nobody alive today bears any responsibility for.
It's a vicious and very destructive lie.

Even more destructive are the lies told around the lies of why and how this happened. Why even offer concentration camps with swimming pools, shops and theaters initially? Why not just starve everyone to death and be done with it in 2-3 months?

Millions of Jews likely died, more millions of Europeans died in WWII.

The narrative is used and abused to create tension not only among the Western tribes, but even among the Jews who are equally brainwashed and are thus more easily motivated to act against the West.

It's one big clusterfuck really. I wonder if humanity will ever take a detailed look at it in the future free from all the bias.

Post: #423

"Who hold the balance of the World? Who reign
O'er congress, whether royalist or liberal?
Who rouse the shirtless patriots of Spain?[615]
(That make old Europe's journals "squeak and gibber"[616] all)
Who keep the World, both old and new, in pain
Or pleasure? Who make politics run glibber all?
The shade of Buonaparte's noble daring?--
Jew Rothschild,[617] and his fellow-Christian, Baring."

Lord Byron

Post: #424

Trump declares May Jewish history month.



White House Logo
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PROCLAMATIONS

President Donald J. Trump Proclaims May 2018 as Jewish American Heritage Month
Issued on: April 30, 2018
menuALL NEWS
During Jewish American Heritage Month, we celebrate the profound contributions that the Jewish faith and its traditions have had on our Nation. Two hundred years ago, in April 1818, Mordecai Noah delivered his famous discourse before the members of America’s first synagogue, Congregation Shearith Israel, upon the consecration of their new house of worship. Reflecting on Jewish history as well as on the unique rights and privileges afforded to American Jews, Noah proclaimed that, “for the first time in eighteen centuries, it may be said that the Jew feels he was born equal, and is entitled to equal protection; he can now breathe freely.”

Jewish Americans have helped guide the moral character of our Nation. They have maintained a strong commitment to engage deeply in American society while also preserving their historic values and traditions. Their passion for social justice and showing kindness to strangers is rooted in the beliefs that God created all people in his image and that we all deserve dignity and peace. These beliefs have inspired Jewish Americans to build mutual-support societies, hospitals, and educational institutions that have enabled them and their fellow Americans to advance American society. Jewish Americans marched for civil rights in Selma and fought for the freedom of their brethren behind the Iron Curtain. Through their actions, they have made the world a better place.

The contributions of the Jewish people to American society are innumerable, strengthening our Nation and making it more prosperous. American Jews have proudly served our country in all branches of government, from local to Federal, and they have defended our freedom while serving in the United States Armed Forces. The indelible marks that American Jews have left on literature, music, cinema, and the arts have enriched the American soul. In their enduring tradition of generosity, Jewish Americans have established some of the largest philanthropic and volunteer networks in the Nation, providing humanitarian aid and social services to those in need at home and abroad, acting as a “light unto the nations.” Universities and other institutions around the country proudly display Nobel prizes won by Jewish Americans in the fields of medicine, chemistry, physics, and economics.

In reaction to Mordecai Noah’s 1818 discourse, Thomas Jefferson wrote that American laws protect “our religious as they do our civil rights by putting all on an equal footing.” The American Jewish community is a shining example of how enshrining freedom of religion and protecting the rights of minorities can strengthen a nation. Through their rich culture and heritage, the Jewish people have triumphed over adversity and enhanced our country. For this and many other reasons, the American Jewish community is deserving of our respect, recognition, and gratitude.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim May 2018 as Jewish American Heritage Month. I call upon all Americans to celebrate the heritage and contributions of American Jews and to observe this month with appropriate programs, activities, and ceremonies.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this thirtieth day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand eighteen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and forty-second.

DONALD J TRUMP


https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-...age-month/

Post: #425

Trump declares May Jewish history month.



White House Logo
SHARE
PROCLAMATIONS

President Donald J. Trump Proclaims May 2018 as Jewish American Heritage Month
Issued on: April 30, 2018
menuALL NEWS
During Jewish American Heritage Month, we celebrate the profound contributions that the Jewish faith and its traditions have had on our Nation. Two hundred years ago, in April 1818, Mordecai Noah delivered his famous discourse before the members of America’s first synagogue, Congregation Shearith Israel, upon the consecration of their new house of worship. Reflecting on Jewish history as well as on the unique rights and privileges afforded to American Jews, Noah proclaimed that, “for the first time in eighteen centuries, it may be said that the Jew feels he was born equal, and is entitled to equal protection; he can now breathe freely.”

Jewish Americans have helped guide the moral character of our Nation. They have maintained a strong commitment to engage deeply in American society while also preserving their historic values and traditions. Their passion for social justice and showing kindness to strangers is rooted in the beliefs that God created all people in his image and that we all deserve dignity and peace. These beliefs have inspired Jewish Americans to build mutual-support societies, hospitals, and educational institutions that have enabled them and their fellow Americans to advance American society. Jewish Americans marched for civil rights in Selma and fought for the freedom of their brethren behind the Iron Curtain. Through their actions, they have made the world a better place.

The contributions of the Jewish people to American society are innumerable, strengthening our Nation and making it more prosperous. American Jews have proudly served our country in all branches of government, from local to Federal, and they have defended our freedom while serving in the United States Armed Forces. The indelible marks that American Jews have left on literature, music, cinema, and the arts have enriched the American soul. In their enduring tradition of generosity, Jewish Americans have established some of the largest philanthropic and volunteer networks in the Nation, providing humanitarian aid and social services to those in need at home and abroad, acting as a “light unto the nations.” Universities and other institutions around the country proudly display Nobel prizes won by Jewish Americans in the fields of medicine, chemistry, physics, and economics.

In reaction to Mordecai Noah’s 1818 discourse, Thomas Jefferson wrote that American laws protect “our religious as they do our civil rights by putting all on an equal footing.” The American Jewish community is a shining example of how enshrining freedom of religion and protecting the rights of minorities can strengthen a nation. Through their rich culture and heritage, the Jewish people have triumphed over adversity and enhanced our country. For this and many other reasons, the American Jewish community is deserving of our respect, recognition, and gratitude.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim May 2018 as Jewish American Heritage Month. I call upon all Americans to celebrate the heritage and contributions of American Jews and to observe this month with appropriate programs, activities, and ceremonies.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this thirtieth day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand eighteen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and forty-second.

DONALD J TRUMP


https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-...age-month/