Post: #376

Believe it or not, if you read the scholarly literature on the topic and read the responses to deniers (like Zundel, Irving, et al.), you find the deniers:

a) Don't know what the hell they're talking about, like the infamous Leuchter Report shows no signs of having any clue about the operation of a gas chamber.

b) Deliberately misrepresent known information and facts.

c) Can't produce alternative explanations, so they find ways to explain away existing evidence rather than explain existing evidence, often resorting to elaborate conspiracies and unlikely scenarios.

Lipstadt's Denying the Holocaust is the place to start, naturally. As I've said before, I really don't care if you like Jews or don't. I do care if you deny facts.

Post: #377

(((facts)))

Post: #378

(04-12-2018 07:45 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  Believe it or not, if you read the scholarly literature on the topic and read the responses to deniers (like Zundel, Irving, et al.), you find the deniers:

a) Don't know what the hell they're talking about, like the infamous Leuchter Report shows no signs of having any clue about the operation of a gas chamber.

b) Deliberately misrepresent known information and facts.

c) Can't produce alternative explanations, so they find ways to explain away existing evidence rather than explain existing evidence, often resorting to elaborate conspiracies and unlikely scenarios.

Lipstadt's Denying the Holocaust is the place to start, naturally. As I've said before, I really don't care if you like Jews or don't. I do care if you deny facts.

A) why don’t you keep your focus on the men here bringing up questions you refuse to answer

B) What information here has been deliberatly misrepresented by people questioning a narrative?

C) From what I’m reading here alternate explanations are the very reason there are questions.

D) Do you believe a Nazi doctor ripped out a man’s throbbing kidney with no anestisia?

E) How can you throw around the word “facts” so freely but do not acknowledge the inconvenient ones brought up in this thread without offering any “alternative explanations” other than “you guys are morons for questioning experts”?

F) Stop saying questioning the official story is about whether someone likes Jews or not.

G) I want to know who really killed JFK and it has nothing to do with whether I like Democrats or not.

Post: #379

(04-12-2018 10:49 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 07:45 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  Believe it or not, if you read the scholarly literature on the topic and read the responses to deniers (like Zundel, Irving, et al.), you find the deniers:

a) Don't know what the hell they're talking about, like the infamous Leuchter Report shows no signs of having any clue about the operation of a gas chamber.

b) Deliberately misrepresent known information and facts.

c) Can't produce alternative explanations, so they find ways to explain away existing evidence rather than explain existing evidence, often resorting to elaborate conspiracies and unlikely scenarios.

Lipstadt's Denying the Holocaust is the place to start, naturally. As I've said before, I really don't care if you like Jews or don't. I do care if you deny facts.

A) why don’t you keep your focus on the men here bringing up questions you refuse to answer

B) What information here has been deliberatly misrepresented by people questioning a narrative?

C) From what I’m reading here alternate explanations are the very reason there are questions.

D) Do you believe a Nazi doctor ripped out a man’s throbbing kidney with no anestisia?

E) How can you throw around the word “facts” so freely but do not acknowledge the inconvenient ones brought up in this thread without offering any alternative facts other than “you guys are morons for questioning experts”?

F) Stop saying questioning the official story is about whether someone likes Jews or not.

G) I want to know who really killed JFK and it has nothing to do with whether I like Democrats or not.

Post: #380

(04-12-2018 10:49 PM)Fisto Wrote:  A) why don’t you keep your focus on the men here bringing up questions you refuse to answer

B) What information here has been deliberatly misrepresented by people questioning a narrative?

C) From what I’m reading here alternate explanations are the very reason there are questions.

D) Do you believe a Nazi doctor ripped out a man’s throbbing kidney with no anestisia?

E) How can you throw around the word “facts” so freely but do not acknowledge the inconvenient ones brought up in this thread without offering any “alternative explanations” other than “you guys are morons for questioning experts”?

F) Stop saying questioning the official story is about whether someone likes Jews or not.

G) I want to know who really killed JFK and it has nothing to do with whether I like Democrats or not.

To answer your questions:

a) I've pointed out where they've been mistaken in multiple areas.

b) The technical aspects of gas chambers, the nature of eyewitness testimony, the evidence in general, the idea that anti-denial laws stifle debate in countries without them, the operation of Treblinka's gas chambers, the availability of scholarly literature on the Holocaust, etc. Parading Raul Hilberg around with a remark "there's no written order on the Holocaust" is dishonest at best. He was a functionalist, which means he rejected the type of "top-down" intentionalist straw man that many here assume.

c) Not among anyone with relevant qualifications. All the denialist arguments fail miserably when you get people with the ability to take chemical samples/evaluate historical sources/etc.

d) I have no idea. Mengele did a number of rather perverse things, plus there are other cases of surgery performed without any type of anesthesia. It would be in keeping with what we know about Nazi medical experimentation, certainly.

e) None of the alternative explanations demonstrate any knowledge of the operation of concentration camps, gas chambers, Einsatzgruppen, and a number of other factors. You have to provide a plausible alternative explanation, rather than just wave away evidence (e.g. the gas chambers couldn't have killed anyone).

f) Yes, it does. It's not a coincidence that denialism tends to be strongly correlated to anti-Semitism, both right and left. Many of the major deniers (Zundel, Irving, of an earlier generation, Barnes) tend to construct elaborate conspiracies involving some type of Allied genocide of Germany, often with a Jewish conspiracy involved as well.

Post: #381

(04-12-2018 09:15 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  (((facts)))

If facts are a Zionist plot, I suppose the idea there are only two genders is also one. What about the sphericity of the Earth?

Post: #382

(04-12-2018 11:41 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 10:49 PM)Fisto Wrote:  A) why don’t you keep your focus on the men here bringing up questions you refuse to answer

B) What information here has been deliberatly misrepresented by people questioning a narrative?

C) From what I’m reading here alternate explanations are the very reason there are questions.

D) Do you believe a Nazi doctor ripped out a man’s throbbing kidney with no anestisia?

E) How can you throw around the word “facts” so freely but do not acknowledge the inconvenient ones brought up in this thread without offering any “alternative explanations” other than “you guys are morons for questioning experts”?

F) Stop saying questioning the official story is about whether someone likes Jews or not.

G) I want to know who really killed JFK and it has nothing to do with whether I like Democrats or not.

To answer your questions:

a) I've pointed out where they've been mistaken in multiple areas.

b) The technical aspects of gas chambers, the nature of eyewitness testimony, the evidence in general, the idea that anti-denial laws stifle debate in countries without them, the operation of Treblinka's gas chambers, the availability of scholarly literature on the Holocaust, etc. Parading Raul Hilberg around with a remark "there's no written order on the Holocaust" is dishonest at best. He was a functionalist, which means he rejected the type of "top-down" intentionalist straw man that many here assume.

c) Not among anyone with relevant qualifications. All the denialist arguments fail miserably when you get people with the ability to take chemical samples/evaluate historical sources/etc.

d) I have no idea. Mengele did a number of rather perverse things, plus there are other cases of surgery performed without any type of anesthesia. It would be in keeping with what we know about Nazi medical experimentation, certainly.

e) None of the alternative explanations demonstrate any knowledge of the operation of concentration camps, gas chambers, Einsatzgruppen, and a number of other factors. You have to provide a plausible alternative explanation, rather than just wave away evidence (e.g. the gas chambers couldn't have killed anyone).

f) Yes, it does. It's not a coincidence that denialism tends to be strongly correlated to anti-Semitism, both right and left. Many of the major deniers (Zundel, Irving, of an earlier generation, Barnes) tend to construct elaborate conspiracies involving some type of Allied genocide of Germany, often with a Jewish conspiracy involved as well.

Truth Teller - this is just more of the same stuff, you claiming everyone is an idiot or a liar or a hateful antisemite.

We are talking on this thread amongst ourselves and you continue to call everyone antisemites.

Question: do you believe people should be prosecuted for denying the Holocaust narrative?

Post: #383

73 years have now passed since the end of world war 2.
Thats almost 3 generations.

By this time, and with the modern technology available, it should be possible to give a name and some personal details (date of birth, last place of residence before disappearance or arrest) to every single one of 6 million who died or vanished using both local archive records of lists of residents across europe, and testimonies of leftover family & relatives.

Despite this, the official holocaust name databases that exist only reach 4 and half million names at most. Among those 4 and half million, many of those listed are duplicates of the same exact people due to spelling variations cause of transliteration variances from the cyrillic script and from other eastern european languages. A small portion may also be duplicated cause some people used different names (fake identities) in wartime in order to evade being arrested, deported and/or killed, but were caught anyway.

Added to that many listed in the database may not have not have been killed in camps, but died due to wartime consequences such as:

-starvation in cities & towns due lack of food,
-disease in cities & towns due to poor sanitation cause of wartime fighting,
-German or american air force bombings,
-Russians/Soviets military action (either through the red army attacking/invading cities, or by deportation to gulags in siberia) when they invaded eastern europe.
(The number of jews that died in russian soviet gulags 1939 to 1953 during Stalin's time has never been really clarified. There is no names database for this. Many "nazi victims" may have actually disappeared/died in Russia.)



The numbers claimed just don't add up.


Of course, a lower number killed doesn't disprove the holocaust, but when you are caught misleading people about important historical details like numbers of those killed (& how and where they they died) more than once, then people will naturally start questioning everything else you tell them.

Post: #384

Ten US newspaper editions printed between 1915 and 1938 citing the figure of six million Jews . It sure is a special number to be repeated so often before WW2 even started.



Bitchute backup in case shoahed.



I don't know if there is much truth to the hypothesis below but perhaps someone here does?

Post: #385

(04-13-2018 11:00 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  the official holocaust name databases that exist only reach 4 and half million names at most.

I'm on all you guys side. I say fuck (((them))).

None the less, if the vast left-wing conspiracy's major argument is a numbers thing, between 4.5 and 6 million, thats a little much. Just let them have their 6 if that's the case. Tie goes to the runner.

Common sense tells me that something ain't right. Too many other lies.

Plus, you got six million or four million fucker's locked up. With axes and shovels and rocks and shit. 200k of you get together, and storm the fucking tower with those things I just mentioned. They can't shoot you all.

Just common sense.

Aloha!

Post: #386

(04-13-2018 10:31 AM)Fisto Wrote:  Truth Teller - this is just more of the same stuff, you claiming everyone is an idiot or a liar or a hateful antisemite.

We are talking on this thread amongst ourselves and you continue to call everyone antisemites.

Question: do you believe people should be prosecuted for denying the Holocaust narrative?

When you deliberately misrepresent things, you're a liar. If you're misrepresenting them because you're uninformed, that's a different story.

It is indisputable that many denialists are motivated by anti-Semitism.

No, I don't think people should be prosecuted. You don't see a swell of academic deniers in countries where it's legal to deny the Holocaust, though.

Post: #387

Even if the Holocaust happened what makes it more tragic than the innumerable genocides that have occured throughout history?

Post: #388

(04-13-2018 11:00 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  73 years have now passed since the end of world war 2.
Thats almost 3 generations.

By this time, and with the modern technology available, it should be possible to give a name and some personal details (date of birth, last place of residence before disappearance or arrest) to every single one of 6 million who died or vanished using both local archive records of lists of residents across europe, and testimonies of leftover family & relatives.

Despite this, the official holocaust name databases that exist only reach 4 and half million names at most. Among those 4 and half million, many of those listed are duplicates of the same exact people due to spelling variations cause of transliteration variances from the cyrillic script and from other eastern european languages. A small portion may also be duplicated cause some people used different names (fake identities) in wartime in order to evade being arrested, deported and/or killed, but were caught anyway.

Added to that many listed in the database may not have not have been killed in camps, but died due to wartime consequences such as:

-starvation in cities & towns due lack of food,
-disease in cities & towns due to poor sanitation cause of wartime fighting,
-German or american air force bombings,
-Russians/Soviets military action (either through the red army attacking/invading cities, or by deportation to gulags in siberia) when they invaded eastern europe.
(The number of jews that died in russian soviet gulags 1939 to 1953 during Stalin's time has never been really clarified. There is no names database for this. Many "nazi victims" may have actually disappeared/died in Russia.)



The numbers claimed just don't add up.


Of course, a lower number killed doesn't disprove the holocaust, but when you are caught misleading people about important historical details like numbers of those killed (& how and where they they died) more than once, then people will naturally start questioning everything else you tell them.

You're making assumptions that can't be supported by the extant historical evidence. The war happened to destroy public records, both deliberately and not so deliberately (e.g. when the Wehrmacht archive was bombed during the bombing of Berlin). Many E. European cities, particularly in Poland but also in the Baltic states, were significantly damaged by the war. 85% of Warsaw was destroyed.

Not everyone who was murdered was killed in a camp. Prior to 1942, the Nazis would often round up Jews, march them into the forest, force them to dig a trench, then machine gun them. They were not keeping records of who they rounded up and shot. Again, Christopher Browning's Police Battalion 101 is a classic study of this issue.

The ghetto system notoriously bred disease and hunger, with rations being far from sufficient. These are the results of deliberate Nazi action, as the Nazis knew what concentrating populations in small spaces would do.

This is how the process worked during Barbarossa:

1. The German army captures a city, through whatever means.

2. The regular army moves out

3. The Einsatzgruppen show up, with the ostensible goal of "identifying security risks."

4. Jews are ordered to report to a central location, often a civic building or a major landmark.

5. The Einsatzgruppen take the Jews out of the city to a convenient, secluded place, then execute them. Step 5 repeats until all the Jews are dead.

By the time the Red Army counter-offensives began, especially in Poland and W. Russia, most of the Jews were either dead or in camps. Virtually all of the ghettoes were "liquidated" by late 1943/early 1944.

Post: #389

(04-13-2018 07:44 PM)Kona Wrote:  Plus, you got six million or four million fucker's locked up. With axes and shovels and rocks and shit. 200k of you get together, and storm the fucking tower with those things I just mentioned. They can't shoot you all.

Not all Jews were put into camps in the first place (about 1.5 million were executed via shootings in 1941/1942), plus there were never millions in one camp at a time.

There were a number of camp uprisings, most of which were almost spectacularly unsuccessful.

Post: #390

I have relatives that died, my grandfather's brothers, sisters, and cousins. They were poor. They were real people who died in the holocaust. I've listened to first hand accounts from elders in the family who did survive. I don't think they were lying.

I'm reasonably certain my family didn't construct, nor were they privy to any fabricated conspiracy theory around why these people were taken from their homes and put in camps where they were eventually shot or gassed to death.

Post: #391

(04-12-2018 06:53 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  For the umpteenth time, I challenge anyone here to find a living PhD historian who supports any of the "revisionist" (i.e. denialist) accounts.

There are zero.

You mean those historians who claimed that the death tolls were "unquestionable" and shouldn't in fact be questioned before the numbers were dropped several times including a 3 million drop at just one camp?

Were all those 3 million now, did they ever even exist as walking breathing individuals?

The same historians who claimed that the human soap, human skin lampshades and pillows filled with human hair were all unquestionably true for decades which turned out not to be the case at all?

The same historians who claimed the number of death camps and gas chambers was accurate, until other people proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that they weren't and caused them to have to reduce the number of alleged gas chambers and death camps, at one camp going from 6 to 1 gas chamber and by smaller amounts elsewhere (but didn't downgrade the death tolls accordingly)

Or perhaps you mean the historians that didnt question claims that 4 people at a time were completely cremated to dust in ovens every 15 minutes 24/7 despite just one body taking over 2 hours to cremate fully, and additional bodies in the same oven would increment it by that amount PER body

Or maybe its the ones that claimed for decades that without any doubt at all the gas chambers were in use almost around the clock, until independant research showed a lack of Zyclon B residue which then caused them to downgrade it from 24/7 to as little a 30 minutes a day in some camps and an hour a day in other camps (also without downgrading the death tolls as many of the camps)

Those historians you mean?

They dont really seem to have a very good track record for finding "truth" until other people confront them with evidence that disproves what they were claiming was wholly accurate and beyond question.

But the pattern does seem to show exactly WHY they don't want people to question their claims, because invariably when people do they're disproven and those ever so accurate factual historians (jewish ones by any chance?) end up having to correct their claims.

So try to devalue objectivity all you want with meaningless slurs like anti semite and nazi but the FACTS speak for themselves, that had people not questioned the claims of these "historians" you expect us to rely on countless barefaced lies and exaggerations would still be being claimed to be facts (which they aren't)


Going off that level of accuracy and success Stephen King and Arthur C Clarke could all be called "historians" as they write fiction too.

What manner of working gas chamber camp would let the Red Cross in? These accursed ones did.

More than Eisenhower's death camps in Germany after the war.

Post: #392

(04-14-2018 02:12 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  You're making assumptions that can't be supported by the extant historical evidence. The war happened to destroy public records, both deliberately and not so deliberately (e.g. when the Wehrmacht archive was bombed during the bombing of Berlin). Many E. European cities, particularly in Poland but also in the Baltic states, were significantly damaged by the war. 85% of Warsaw was destroyed.

No.
This is total bullshit.
You are now the one making assumptions.

I have personally been in the archives in various towns in Poland, in Russia, and in the baltics, and a few other eastern european countries to do my own (NON-holocaust related) research many different times for many years in the past.

The records of residents living in small villages, mid to large towns, and big cities from the 19th century all the way up to 1930s are all available in one form or another. There may be small gaps here and there...but you can easily track down any person who was alive in the 1930s in europe through a list of secondary records such as old residents books, telephone books, tax records, etc, etc.

If a jewish person was living anywhere in europe legally in the 1930s, he was registered somewhere and those records still exist in one form or another today. There is no location in europe that has huge gaps in records of residents in the 1930s that would account for thousands, let alone millions of missing dead (disappeared) people.


The fact that nazis hated jews in no secret...they said it openly millions of times.
The holocaust happened.
As it stands today, the high numbers claimed to have been killed by the holocaust aren't suppported by archival records of real people alive in the 1930s.

Post: #393

(04-14-2018 03:15 PM)Syberpunk Wrote:  Or maybe its the ones that claimed for decades that without any doubt at all the gas chambers were in use almost around the clock, until independant research showed a lack of Zyclon B residue which then caused them to downgrade it from 24/7 to as little a 30 minutes a day in some camps and an hour a day in other camps (also without downgrading the death tolls as many of the camps)

Leuchter's shitty "independent" report showed nothing more than he hadn't the slightest idea of how a gas chamber operated, nor how the residues would've been left.

(04-14-2018 03:15 PM)Syberpunk Wrote:  The same historians who claimed that the human soap, human skin lampshades and pillows filled with human hair were all unquestionably true for decades which turned out not to be the case at all?

Citation of an actual historian needed. This was a rumor that made it to popular culture.

(04-14-2018 03:15 PM)Syberpunk Wrote:  You mean those historians who claimed that the death tolls were "unquestionable" and shouldn't in fact be questioned before the numbers were dropped several times including a 3 million drop at just one camp?

If you're talking about Auschwitz, the higher figure was known to be Soviet propaganda from the 1950s onward. Using that as an example is dishonest.

(04-14-2018 03:15 PM)Syberpunk Wrote:  More than Eisenhower's death camps in Germany after the war.

More pseudohistory bullshit. How fun.

(04-14-2018 03:15 PM)Syberpunk Wrote:  What manner of working gas chamber camp would let the Red Cross in? These accursed ones did.

Citation desperately needed again. The Red Cross saw the demonstration camp at Thresienstadt, which was a Potemkin village. The oft-cited "Red Cross inspected shower facilities" stems from a report on an Egyptian resettlement camp.

Post: #394

^You don't think there's some possibility that those records were lost or intentionally destroyed when those towns became occupied by Nazis, or perhaps after people were forcibly taken from their homes?

Post: #395

(04-14-2018 03:23 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  If a jewish person was living anywhere in europe legally in the 1930s, he was registered somewhere and those records still exist in one form or another today. There is no location in europe that has huge gaps in records of residents in the 1930s that would account for thousands, let alone millions of missing dead (disappeared) people.

Think about this carefully. The Nazis were known to destroy records. It is well-known that the Nazis burned villages in Belorussia, Poland, and the Baltic states. I think 600 were destroyed in Belorussia alone. You're committing a survivorship fallacy, just because certain records survived doesn't mean they all survived.

Post: #396

(04-14-2018 03:33 PM)Chetthebaker Wrote:  ^You don't think there's some possibility that those records were lost or intentionally destroyed when those towns became occupied by Nazis, or perhaps after people were forcibly taken from their homes?

There wasn't a single, NOT ONE report or photograph of a pinkish red body despite the millions that were supposedly gassed, but that doesn't matter, apparently the always meticulous Germans were so anal about details and records they wrote reports for the lols only to destroy every one of them also for the lols even though they supposedly hated the Jewish people and it was no big secret, but they couldn't let anyone know.......what they already know...or something.

I thought they were proud of what they were doing!

Post: #397

(04-14-2018 03:34 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  Think about this carefully. The Nazis were known to destroy records. It is well-known that the Nazis burned villages in Belorussia, Poland, and the Baltic states. I think 600 were destroyed in Belorussia alone. You're committing a survivorship fallacy, just because certain records survived doesn't mean they all survived.

You are the one who needs to think more carefully.

People weren't just registered locally, but also nationally in state capitals. So the same person appeared in numerous records in many different places throughout the course of many years. So if you can't find them in record x, you will still find them in record y, or record z.

Lists of towns and cities with names and addresses of all residents were even published as books in 1920s and 1930s with print runs in the thousands that you can still get at the libraries and online today.

Yes, nazis burned villages and bombed cities, but they weren't dumb enough to burn archive and records offices. They needed those records. How do you think they figured out how many jews lived in a certain place and where to find them when they arrested them en masse ? You think they went knocking door to door asking kindly who liked kosher food ? No...when they arrived somewhere to carry out arrests and/or killings they had detailed name and address lists ready. (Just like the russian soviets) Lists they made from local records.

Have you visited & researched in the archives in eastern europe?
I have.

Tell me the EXACT locations in europe you think there's records/archive gap in the 1930s that would justify thousands or millions of missing people with no paper trace and I'll look into it.

I'm not disputing the veracity of the holocaust...just the numbers claimed.

Post: #398

(04-14-2018 04:03 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  People weren't just registered locally, but also nationally in state capitals. So the same person appeared in numerous records in many different places throughout the course of many years. So if you can't find them in record x, you will still find them in record y, or record z.

Most E. European Jews weren't.

https://www.yadvashem.org/archive/hall-o...e/faq.html

Post: #399

(04-14-2018 05:22 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(04-14-2018 04:03 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  People weren't just registered locally, but also nationally in state capitals. So the same person appeared in numerous records in many different places throughout the course of many years. So if you can't find them in record x, you will still find them in record y, or record z.

Most E. European Jews weren't.

https://www.yadvashem.org/archive/hall-o...e/faq.html

That FAQ does not back up what you are claiming, not does it disprove what I'm saying.


It is common that you will not find any evidence that someone was killed from 1933 to 1945 in europe. (Or later if they were killed in russian soviet gulags)

However, you will always find some evidence that a real physical person existed in a certain place in europe sometime between the mid to late 1930s in archives/books/records/paper trails before WW2 started.

The idea that there is ZERO trace of a person (over age 6) who lived somewhere legally in 1930s europe is ludicrous.
There is always some sort of evidence to be found for the existence of a person from that time.

Post: #400

(04-13-2018 07:44 PM)Kona Wrote:  

(04-13-2018 11:00 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  the official holocaust name databases that exist only reach 4 and half million names at most.

None the less, if the vast left-wing conspiracy's major argument is a numbers thing, between 4.5 and 6 million, thats a little much. Just let them have their 6 if that's the case. Tie goes to the runner.

I'll engage in some angels dancing on the head of a pin, Aquinas style.

Point: As if 4 vs 6 million makes a difference, either way it is sick butchery and must never be allowed to happen again!

Counterpoint: If it WAS 4, and yet you continue to say 6 million instead, and constantly browbeat and shut-down those who want clarification... why is that? Obviously 4 million people killed systematically is a horrible thing. What is the purpose of jigging up the number even higher (and then brooking no discussion)?