Post: #1

RESIDENTIAL GUN SAFE DATASHEET

One of the ways to increase your security against burglary and thieves in general is to harden the target. The #1, hands down method of entry by burglars is by kicking in a rear or side door.

You can mitigate this with:

- Steel entry doors rather than wood.
- ANSI Grade 1 deadbolts, rather than the crappy Kwikset locks at your local home center.
- Heavy, 4 screw strike plates AND hinges attached with screws that go all the way into the frame rather than ¾ inch screws that just go into the trim boards.

And one last thing :

- Invest in a good quality safe.

Few things would be more discouraging to a thief than if they manage to get past my door security, trip my alarm, and then run for the master bedroom only to see about 2000 lbs of steel standing between them and my goodies. Maybe he’ll get one of my TVs off the wall before the cops get there. But he will not get my gold, guns, expensive electronics, watches. emergency cash, etc.

Had my choice in safes been more motivated by saving money rather than security, the story might be a bit different. Walk into any Walmart, Target, Sam’s Club, etc, and you’ll find “safes” for sale. Brand names like Sentry, First Alert, Stalwart, to name a few. You may open one of them and think that it looks pretty secure. The door my look really thick, and the bolts may look impressive.

I have had the opportunity over the years to break in to many of these safes. None – repeat – none of them stayed shut longer than 2-3 minutes. Mind you, I know what I’m doing, but all I had was a pry bar, a heavy screw driver, a hammer, and a large magnet. No, I cannot open them by manipulation. That is a very special skill. (Google - Jeff Sitar)

Less than three minutes and your shit is gone. Unless you buy a good safe, and properly install it.

What makes a “good safe” for your home?

1. Solid Construction

If the words “Made in China” appear any where on a safe you’re considering, the chances are very good that you are buying a marginal quality safe. It’s more than likely you are actually buying a “Fire rated” safe, rather than a “Burglary Rated” safe.

Unless the safe you are looking at carries an Underwriters Laboratory burglary rating of RSC (Residential Security Container), you are probably buying a fire safe. To carry a U.L. RSC rating, a safe must resist concentrated prying, punching, drilling, and tampering efforts – by people who know how to get into safes by those methods – for five minutes. There are numerous higher ratings for safes TL-15, TL-30, etc, but most of those safes are in the classification of “jewelry safes” and are generally not used in homes.

When it comes to features, look for at least 10 gauge steel. (8 or less would be better) Unibody construction. Deep hot welds rather than common “skip welds”.

About 11 gauge steel – A lot of safes use 11 gauge steel. Having one of these safes is far better than not having one at all. However, understand that a fire axe, or a simple grinder with a cutoff wheel, will be able to cut open the sides pretty quickly. You will want to place such a safe in an area that makes it difficult to get at the sides. See Proper Installation below.

2. Pry Resistance

Unless the burglar is of a particular breed, they will not be showing up at your house with acetylene torches, or magic x-ray devices to see the lock internals. They might be showing up with crowbars. Or they may appropriate yours from your garage. (I keep my crow bars IN my safe for ..) Whatever the case, prying is the #1 method common burglars use to get into safes. That’s why the U.L. rating above is so important.

To be pry resistant, a safe must:

- Have a door rigid enough not to flex.
- Bolts that extend well behind the door frame .
- A door frame that has reinforced steel that prevents flexing.
- Have a tight fit between the door and the door frame.

When prying a safe, the object is to force the door to flex enough so that the bolts slip past the frame. You can have 2” thick Mithril bolts, but if they only extend ¼” past a flimsy frame, that safe is going to be a breeze to open.

Look for a safe with multiple locking bolts on all sides of the door, with at least 1 full inch of throw PAST the frame. The bolts should be greater than 1 inch in diameter. And while you’re looking at the frame, be certain that it is not just a thin single ply piece of metal. Ideally the inside lip should form a “U” shape so that the bolts rest on the side of the steel, rather than on its edge


3. Drill Resistance

While drilling safes is the most common physical attack used by criminal safecrackers (and locksmiths) , it is less used by the average burglar. Successful drilling to access the internal components requires skill and a solid knowledge of the safe’s locking mechanism.

Still numerous counter drilling additions will be found on quality safes. Among those are:

- Hard Plates

Hard plates are an additional layer of specially treated steel that is much harder than the steel that forms the safe body.

- Ball Bearing Plates

These are hardened plates that are comprised of row after row of ball bearings that are encased in the plate so that they are free to spin. When a drill hits a ball bearing, it merely spins the bearing rather than continuing to remove material.

- Relockers

Relockers do not stop drilling. Rather, they are more like booby traps within the safe door and locking mechanism. Hammering, drilling, and prying can activate these devices. They are most often spring loaded pins that engage the lock mechanism once tripped, and prevent the safe from being opened normally. Others will effectively pin the bolt retracting arms in place permanently locking the door.

Very few cheap safes have these.

Other Considerations

- Proper Installation.

The number one thing that can be done to prevent a safe from being compromised in a burglary is oddly, left out by most safe owners. They come home, and find that they have been burglarized, and the main thing missing is their SAFE. Your safe may weigh 500 lbs, if it’s not properly screwed to the floor, it is just a heavy suitcase with all your valuables in it.

Safes should be located in areas that make working around it difficult. Many people place them in the corner of a room angled so that the back is touching the corner’s adjacent walls. This makes working on the sides of the safe difficult for any would-be thief.

Your safe MUST be attached to the floor. There’s no getting around that. This may mean extra work locating it so that sufficiently long lag bolts (4, no less) can be sunk into the joists. If you merely screw the safe down and only go into the subfloor, the safe is NOT secure. The lag screws must be in the floor joists. An even better mounting would be on a solid concrete floor and use concrete anchors.

- Dial or Digital lock.


This really boils down to personal preference. As long as the mechanical lock is rated U.L. Group 2 or better, or the electronic lock is rated Type 1, it’s fine. I happen to like the quick access that an electronic lock offers. But my safe happens to have both.

- Size

Boyle’s law teaches us, among other things, that a gas expands to fill its container. The number of items that you will want to put in your safe will also expand well beyond what you may think while you’re shopping for your new safe.

Trust me on this – buy a size bigger than you think you need. Safe manufactures may do a good job constructing their products, but they absolutely suck at estimating the number of guns that will ACTUALLY fit in them. Once you start adding family albums, electronics, ammo, and tons of other items that you want to protect, room runs out quick. You will thank me within a year if you buy the one size up, or curse yourself for not.


I hope someone finds this helpful.

Post: #2

I have 2 guns safes. Both have dial locks. I'm not a fan of digital locks.

Post: #3

Are there any specific models you'd recommend?

Post: #4

Interesting data sheet topic. I assume that given your line of work, you won't attending any meet-ups...

Do you have any specific recommendations for home safes from Amazon, Wal-Mart, or the such? Say, 5-10 rifle or ~6 cu. feet...short of the "National Guard armory" size. Something for the average home owner.

Outdoor security cameras - deterrent value?
Sliding glass doors - other than "ye olde dowel in the track" method, what else can you do to make them safe?
Is it possible to secure in place a fire box without drill holes?

Post: #5

(12-14-2016 06:28 PM)Alpharius Wrote:  Are there any specific models you'd recommend?

I have financial interest in some of the companies. That is why I left brand names out of the datasheet.

Good safes are expensive. The peace of mind that a good safe brings, however, really off-sets that cost.

I have a client who routinely keeps extremely valuable items in his safe. The safe he has was around $9K and would be exceptionally challenging to get in to.

For the vast majority of common burglars, a mid-level Liberty safe (Franklin series or above - PROPERLY INSTALLED) would guard your stuff pretty well. These are a minimum bet at all but the highest end models.

Fort Knox safes (Defender and above) can be customized with 10 gauge or better steel.

Sturdy Safes also make very tough safes. They mock 11 gauge steel safes and have a video on youtube showing how their safes compare to others against a fire axe attack. But while their safe did better, you still could not get anything OUT of the 11 gauge safe in the video. Still, these guys build a depressingly solid safe.

None of these, by the way, are cheap, but they will keep your stuff very safe.

Post: #6

(12-14-2016 06:45 PM)polar Wrote:  Interesting data sheet topic. I assume that given your line of work, you won't attending any meet-ups...

Do you have any specific recommendations for home safes from Amazon, Wal-Mart, or the such? Say, 5-10 rifle or ~6 cu. feet...short of the "National Guard armory" size. Something for the average home owner.

Outdoor security cameras - deterrent value?
Sliding glass doors - other than "ye olde dowel in the track" method, what else can you do to make them safe?
Is it possible to secure in place a fire box without drill holes?

Just to be clear, my "line of work" in this matter is legit. I have never used my super powers for evil.

There is not a safe at Wal-Mart (at least, any that I have been to) than I cannot open within a few minutes. NONE of them carry an RSC rating. Instead, they are mostly designed to partially protect the contents from FIRE not BURGLARY. You can buy large metal "Gun cabinets", that are 1/2 the price of cheap "gun safes", that will protect your guns just as well as crappy Wal-Mart safes.

Security cameras that are connected to off site storage, via cellular links, are excellent at collecting information that may help identify a burglar. That said, cameras are only a moderate deterrent to criminals. Every convenience mart on the planet has cameras, but they still get robbed every day.

"Ye old dowel in the track" is actually pretty effective, especially if the fit is snug. The other thing you can do in the vein is to drill a hole through the frame and pin the doors together with a nail.

But the next level here is to use a 3M S140 film on the glass itself. It makes the glass very tough to shatter. Again, it's expensive, but will very significantly "harden the target" of your home.

Post: #7

If you want a quality safe the best bet moneywise is to keep an eye on Craigslist. I have an old school Mosler TL20 I can fit my collapsible stock M14 into which I bought for $250. Weighs close to a thousand pounds, and would be much more than that in dollars bought new. Forget what the fire rating is on it but also very good. Most new safes use drywall/sheetrock (gypsum) as the fire lining, which turns to dust in short order when exposed to fire, good fire safes use concrete. Suspect the odds are that a safe is going to be tested more by fire than by thieves but don't know data one way or the other. As with most things, they don't make 'em like they used to.

I travel frequently so have a motion detector set up right in front of the safe (Sensaphone web600) set up to email and text me as soon as it goes off. I have a camera pointed at it as well so if I get an alarm I load up the camera app. If someone's in there I can call the cops. Or if I'm in the neighborhood, grab the Kahr...

Security film seems like it would offer minimal return in a residential setting as the sashes aren't meant to support it and break easily, as well as the glass behind the sash, which does the work, being "unlaminated" with an aftermarket application. Good to have options though.

Post: #8

Here's my residential gun safe:



Here's the key:

Post: #9

^^^ You live in a car?

Aloha!

Post: #10

I'd recommend a 10 gun safe for a starter, it's big enough to store several rifles/handguns/mags/ammo or anything else. They don't take up too much space, maybe 2 and a half or 3 feet in a corner. You can get a good one for around $400 or less on sale, I got a Field & Stream that seems pretty solid for like $350 or so from Dick's.

Post: #11

(12-14-2016 11:01 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  If you want a quality safe the best bet moneywise is to keep an eye on Craigslist.

There's a guy with a safe store in Honolulu that always ads on Craigslist. I got 2 18 gun size safes in my garage and a real fancy one in my bedroom closet (vhs tapes of me having sex) for real important stuff.

I wanted another one with a cash drop slot for my work people, so I went to that guys place. He was really fishy. They insisted on coming out and installing it.

If you buy a safe off of craigslist , do not tell the people you are buying it from where you live. You might be setting yourself up.

Aloha!

Post: #12

found this safe at Costco online for 599 delivered. 30 minute fire rating, weighs 500lbs.

what do you experts think? strikes me as a good value and that one would have to pay exponentially more for better quality.

http://www.costco.com/Sports-Afield-SA59...26657.html

Post: #13

Be very wary of safes with digital locks. A lot of them are extremely easy to pry off and operate manually.

Another thing. While a safe being pry-proof is good, the next best thing if you can't afford a great gun-safe is to get a cheaper one and mount it flat on the floor, preferably in a very tight fitting space with a concrete floor like a lot of laundries have (moisture absorbers are a must in that case).

The key is to position the safe so that when you open the door it swings away from the wall rather than towards it. This gives an extremely limited space to jam a prybar in and lever it around. It makes it a pain in the ass to retrieve guns from but it's worth it IMO if you can't afford a really good safe.

Make sure when you dynabolt the safe in that you use thick, oversized washers to prevent the bolts being pulled through the holes if the thieves try to lever the safe off of the ground.

Also, the benefit of mounting the safe flat on the floor is gravity tends to turn a five gun safe into a ten gun safe.

Then? Hide it under some fake furniture, buy another shitty safe, bolt it to a crappy wall and put some small guage pipes in it (wrap the bottom half of the pipes with cloth tape if you want to recreate the feel of a nice, wooden stocked rifle bouncing around in there). With any luck the thieves will go straight for the dummy safe and opt to rip it out completely, carting it off and prying it open in safety elsewhere. The clanking inside as they move it will make them think they're on the right track.

Those cheap safes cost less than 180 delivered now, at least in Australia, so for less than 400 bucks you can have a pretty tricky setup that gives you a lot of bang for your security buck.

Post: #14

(12-15-2016 06:48 AM)Hypno Wrote:  found this safe at Costco online for 599 delivered. 30 minute fire rating, weighs 500lbs.

what do you experts think? strikes me as a good value and that one would have to pay exponentially more for better quality.

http://www.costco.com/Sports-Afield-SA59...26657.html

It will keep children away from your guns or other things, but with 14 gauge steel, it will offer very little pry resistance, and a decent hand axe will open those sides easily. 14 gauge isn't even as thick as a U.S. nickle.

Post: #15

(12-14-2016 09:54 PM)Baphomet Wrote:  Good safes are expensive. The peace of mind that a good safe brings, however, really off-sets that cost.

Thats the damn truth. In a day and age where a handgun is $500 and a rifle is $1000, the value of ones firearms collection can add up quickly and Ive never quite understood the logic of spending as little as possible on what is your last line of defense. I see many people with small collections worth $5,000-10,000 in a $699 Field and Stream special from Home Depot. Rather you should spend as much money as you can but more importantly get the heaviest/thickest safe/RSC your foundation can support and as Leonard states bolt that sucker down in a corner somewhere.

I wonder how many of us travel in the same circles online, there is a huge thread on a gun board by the lead design engineer for AMSEC safes that has a wealth of fascinating info about design and testing of "gun safes" and RSC's. Ive always been a manual lock guy but some of the new electronic locks have failure rates that put even the manual S&G 6630 to shame. Another thing to add is that a safe really is a last line of defense and something to merely buy you time as OP stated. After they break past your locks and upgraded doors, after they set off the alarm, after they get caught on camera, then they have to get in the safe. The UL standard for an RSC is 5 min with basic hand tools. Finally you can add a rider to your homeowners insurance specifically covering firearms for practically peanuts (+$5/mo).

Plate steel door: good
External hinges: good
Poured fire liner: good

Pro-tip: Lock your tools up too! Its bad juju to have a nice safe while leaving that set of Norseman cobalt drill bits out so the thief can use them.

Post: #16

Most of the safes you guys are discussing can be zipped open in less than a minute with a metal cutting circular saw. I would't bother with anything less than a TL-15 or TL-30 as a serious safe unless your goal is just to have a fire resistant box or thwart a smash and grab burglary.

Post: #17

I am guilty of not having a gun safe. Even though I have a several guns, I will admit that some are laying around like I live in a trap house. Hell, now that I think about it, there are at least 2 or 3 that I would have to make an effort to look for. I THINK they are buried under some clothes on a table in the attic, but I am not 100% sure. I once was doing some house cleaning and found an unopened box of 100 shotgun shells and 150 rounds of 22lr under a couch in my basement.

Post: #18

(12-14-2016 06:28 PM)Alpharius Wrote:  Are there any specific models you'd recommend?

I have one that's the Cabela's brand and another that's Winchester. They are most likely made by someone else. I would say avoid Stack-On and Sentry. They sell a lot of gun cabinets that can be defeated with a pry bar.

Both of mine are similar to this. The silver round parts in the door are the bars that secure it. It really hard to pry or peel these.

   

Post: #19

This is the video typically touted when explaining how easy it is to get into a cheap gunsafe.





Take note of how hard that would be to accomplish if the side they were working was hard up against a wall.

That said, I'm not a fan of putting all of your eggs in one basket. It's not permitted here, but if I had my choice I would vastly prefer to stash some of my guns rather than put them in a safe. Particularly the handguns which can be hidden extremely well if you use your imagination.

Post: #20

Good datasheet so far.

Let me add a few bits:

1. Get a proper dehumidifier. I use the Goldenrod that is plugged into a built-in outlet in my safe. Always on, always keeping my guns dry and safe from rust.

Amazon sells different sizes of them here. Buy the one that fits the interior width of your safe, and place it just inside the door at the bottom. Also doesn't hurt to keep a battery operated humidity sensor in your safe, just to make sure things are dry.

2. Make sure you actually know how to quickly operate your safe! Play with the models in the store before you actually buy one. If you need to access a gun in an emergency, you don't want to be fumbling. Also, make sure to keep at least one gun loaded and ready to go in case of someone breaking in.

3. Last but not least, go and out an practice. Know how to shot from a variety of positions. In a real-life home invasion, things aren't as tidy as they are on a range. Try running for a bit to get your pulse up, then shoot straight. Much harder than you think! Practice and training with the help of a professional always helps.

Post: #21

(12-15-2016 12:11 PM)billbudsocket Wrote:  Most of the safes you guys are discussing can be zipped open in less than a minute with a metal cutting circular saw. I would't bother with anything less than a TL-15 or TL-30 as a serious safe unless your goal is just to have a fire resistant box or thwart a smash and grab burglary.

I don't disagree with your first point, as nearly all residential gun "safes" are merely Residential Security Containers (RSC) as listed by UL to withstand a basic attack (hammer & screwdriver aka smash and grab) for 5 min. Your second point falls a little flat since this is a game forum and not a machine gun or Rolex forum. A TL-15 or TL-30 in a size that can hold long guns fully assembled is not something you can go down to the big box store and move with a couple friends and an appliance dolly. They are so heavy that you can only put them on concrete floors of certain thickness. These safes start at a couple thousand pounds and go up from there. Most people are going to, out of sheer necessity, turn to a pro that is licensed and bonded to handle safes and vaults. Also a TL-30 is only rated TL-30 on the door, a TL-30x6 is rated on all sides and weighs almost 10,000 lbs.

If you already know about TL/TR ratings, I don't think the OP had you in mind when he made this thread. Likewise if you have something that would require that level of protection you would most likely not be reading this thread for advice either. Most people in the gun community want protection from their kids getting into them, average burglaries and maybe some fire protection to keep things from melting until the FD shows up. If being hit by a crew that brings metal saws is within the realm of likely occurrences then you have either fucked up with numerous PERSEC violations or have much bigger problems to worry about, like being taken hostage and forced at gunpoint to open your TL-30 safe.

Post: #22

(12-15-2016 06:50 PM)Adonis Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 12:11 PM)billbudsocket Wrote:  Most of the safes you guys are discussing can be zipped open in less than a minute with a metal cutting circular saw. I would't bother with anything less than a TL-15 or TL-30 as a serious safe unless your goal is just to have a fire resistant box or thwart a smash and grab burglary.

I don't disagree with your first point, as nearly all residential gun "safes" are merely Residential Security Containers (RSC) as listed by UL to withstand a basic attack (hammer & screwdriver aka smash and grab) for 5 min. Your second point falls a little flat since this is a game forum and not a machine gun or Rolex forum. A TL-15 or TL-30 in a size that can hold long guns fully assembled is not something you can go down to the big box store and move with a couple friends and an appliance dolly. ...

Just to clear up a point or two. The RSC rating specifies "vigorous" attempts at entry, including prying, drilling, punching and tampering. And that is done by guys who know how to get into safes. It is not done by average Joes with a hammer.

Leonard D Neubache posted a video of some guys prying open a safe. THE #1 thing to notice here is that the safe is on its back. In this position the prying force is GREATLY multiplied.

As Leonard (and I) mentioned you can increase the security of even a modest safe, through PROPER installation. Making sure that your safe cannot be moved it a giant step in the right direction.

Side note - One client suggested placing his safe on some super armored "lazy susan" mount to make pretty much any attempt at forcing/cutting very difficult. Interesting concept, but the implementation would be pretty challenging. I've filed it under TO DO.

billbudsocket mentions (as did I) that many safes can be opened with a grinder/saw and the appropriate wheel/blade. The fact is that 99% of burglars will not have such tools with them. They will have common handtools (if that), and any tools that they can utilize from your garage. My large pry bars and like tools are kept in my safe. (REALLY - Get the largest safe you can. Trust me on this one point.)

Post: #23

Oh. Also.



This runs outside the realm of the thread in specific terms, but I still maintain it to be relevant.

Post: #24

On that fire:theft risk - this site makes the case that theft is a bigger risk by raw numbers. But same site, different article - http://gunsafereviewsguy.com/articles/my...tection/4/ says that guns are stolen in 1 in 25 burglaries which puts the incidents of gun theft around 136k anually. 380k house fires annually, half the US owns a gun, no data on how many fires affect guns, but odds seem significant between the flames and the fire hose. So theft is probably more likely to affect guns than fire, but fire is still significant. Avoid the gypsum safes if you can afford to or find a deal.

(12-15-2016 12:12 AM)Kona Wrote:  

(12-14-2016 11:01 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  If you want a quality safe the best bet moneywise is to keep an eye on Craigslist.

There's a guy with a safe store in Honolulu that always ads on Craigslist. I got 2 18 gun size safes in my garage and a real fancy one in my bedroom closet (vhs tapes of me having sex) for real important stuff.

I wanted another one with a cash drop slot for my work people, so I went to that guys place. He was really fishy. They insisted on coming out and installing it.

If you buy a safe off of craigslist , do not tell the people you are buying it from where you live. You might be setting yourself up.

Aloha!

Good point. I got mine from a sketchy bunch as well. Lady selling it was in a run down house and had her son and several hooligan friends hanging out there. It had been in their family for a while and she was saying he wanted it but "couldn't come up with the money!". I was thinking, "Damn lady, you're going to pawn off an heirloom and make your kid keep his smack in the medicine cabinet over $250?". Didn't even tell them what town I lived in and still considered getting the combination changed.

Post: #25

I just can't imagine any professional criminal breaking into my house