Post: #226

(08-26-2013 11:59 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  If you only need three minutes to rest between squat sets then you aren't lifting heavy enough. After a month or so you will definitely need those five minutes.

This makes sense. I have found it helpful to extend the resting period. I don't like to sit around though. Do you think it's OK to do some very light erg/rowing? I prefer to keep the blood flowing a bit.

Post: #227

I've now been doing SS more or less for a month now so thought I'd post about what has been my progress/experience to date:

Getting the squat form down is much harder than it looks. At least it is for me. I suppose I might be "slow" when it comes to developing muscle memory/motor-learning as it's called. It took me at least 3 weeks before I could get into position under the bar comfortably, without feeling like I was being tied up and interrogated by Al-Mukhabarat, due a to a lack of flexibility in my arms. Yesterday was actually the first time the squat overall started to "feel right" by which I mean the movement started to flow more naturally. (Motor-learning starting to kick in.) And it still needs a lot of work, I know. I just keep telling myself to push the knees out and keep my chest up, but not vertical. I might actually be going too low.

I got a little too eager to increase squat weight 10lbs each workout and ended up causing myself to suffer a lot of hip joint pain from lifting unevenly with my right and left leg. Clearly I increased the weight too fast while not strong or practiced enough for proper balanced form. (Or, not eating enough so sustain that.) This was at about 185. It got so bad that last week that I had to reduce it by 30lbs and start again. (Those "Agile 8" routines, particularly the "fire hydrants" posted earlier in the thread were very helpful in reducing that pain. Thanks very much to the poster!) Now before someone says, *cough* "You're a p*ssy!" (Which I know is coming at any moment now, wait for it, wait for it… ) Keep in mind that have to be play it a little cautious. I want to avoid injury at all cost since in my current situation I can't really afford a doctor/surgeon if something very bad happens. I'd be screwed big time. Plus, I feel more confident about increasing the weight on the bar for my next workout when I'm not walking around in miserable pain.


I'm not doing the power cleans but that other variation of SS where you do pullups/chinups instead. I don't trust myself to learn a complicated movement like the power clean without a coach present. Right now the deadlift is my favorite of the lifts, and the squat is the one I kind of dread having to do a little bit. The pull-ups I am finding boring/tedious but I know I need them.

I'm getting stronger but I think I'm also getting fatter, or at it sometimes feels like that since I started eating a lot more this past week. However, my weight is very volatile and depends on what I've eaten the day before. For instance, last Sunday, after some relatively low carb days and a bit of night drinking, I was (a probably dehydrated) 211lbs in the morning. By Friday morning the scale said 220. Today (Tuesday) 219. I'm checking my waist with a tape and it hasn't changed too much. It went down in the first weeks but now it seems to be holding steady more or less. However, right after a big meal I inflate like a balloon, and feel disgusting.

Prior to SS I ate close to 2,000 calories a day. During the first week I started up I consumed about 2,500 calories a day. I've now increased that. I'm up to 3,100 for last week's average. Coming from several years of mentally training myself to not overeat, this takes some getting used to. Sometimes I think this has to be the most convoluted path I've ever taken to (hopefully eventual) fat loss! Yet, I suppose the internal logic of the program is taking over and I'm a little more interested in getting stronger / overall fitness at the moment and just having fun with it. I feel stronger, and when I go out and do my road cycling, the hills have become easier for me, which feels great. So quality of life is up.

Sleep is important for recovery. I don't think this mixes too well with going out at night. In the first few weeks I was probably not sleeping enough, but now that the days are getting shorter it's actually helpful in that I can sleep in a little longer. Note to self: Must try to go to bed earlier and read less rooshvforum at night.

As far as appearances go I think there's little to no difference yet. Maybe just maybe I see a little something happening in the shoulder/arms, since those have less subcutaneous fat on them. They do at least feel thicker/firmer when I squeeze them. I feel something different in the legs too. I noticed it this morning lying in bed. Naturally, one would not expect to notice it visually while it's hidden under a layer of blubber.

I plan to keep plugging away at it as I'm enjoying it overall. I'm a bit concerned about the fat issue, but I will just keep an eye on it for now. If I do get really fat I will only be good for "fat dude on a Harley" game…

Post: #228

It boggles my mind why this program is so popular. Ok, if you want to eventually be a power lifter or strong man then by all means...but if you want to just look good its a terrible program. The upper body work is way to low for maximal hypertrophy and whether people want to admit it or not, upper body is what makes or break the male physique. GOMAD is fucking retarded. There is no reason to consume such a vast amount of calories. You can only gain muscle so fast and force feeding just turns you into a fat guy with big traps. No doubt, I am going to get flamed for saying this but I challenge anyone to post pictures demonstrating significant improvement after doing Starting Strength. Most that I have seen look worse.

Post: #229

Is Wendler 531 better than SS?

Post: #230

In my opinion SS is better if you're starting from a blank slate and need to get used to lifting heavy and building base strength rapidly.

5/3/1 probably suits intermediate trainees best but can also be used by beginners.

They are based around the big lifts - i.e. bench, squat, military press and deadlift. The programs are simple, no-nonsense.

Both are excellent training programs designed by guys who know their shit - Mark Rippletoe and Jim Wendler. Don't get caught up in overanalysing and deciding which one is best for you. Pick one, follow it and you will be rewarded.

Post: #231

(08-27-2013 01:44 PM)RussianSoul Wrote:  It boggles my mind why this program is so popular. Ok, if you want to eventually be a power lifter or strong man then by all means...but if you want to just look good its a terrible program. The upper body work is way to low for maximal hypertrophy and whether people want to admit it or not, upper body is what makes or break the male physique. GOMAD is fucking retarded. There is no reason to consume such a vast amount of calories. You can only gain muscle so fast and force feeding just turns you into a fat guy with big traps. No doubt, I am going to get flamed for saying this but I challenge anyone to post pictures demonstrating significant improvement after doing Starting Strength. Most that I have seen look worse.

Sadly, this.

I did SS for about 1.5 years, back when I started college.

I went from 6'3" 155 lbs to about 185 lbs.

For strength purposes, this program was amazing. I had become very powerful, out strengthening many football players on my old HS team. I took my bench from a 105 lb max to about 235 lbs. Squatted 3 plates, and deadlift about 350 at my peak

However, look wise? This program is terrible. You will build virtually no mass on your arms, though your chest and ass will BLOW UP.

I would recomend a beginner utilize this program for no more than 6 months. After that, start a more hypertrophy based upper/lower split.

Post: #232

This thread makes my head want to explode.

Of course Jamie from Chaos and Pain lost strength when he did a 5x5 similar to SS, he is a world record holder in powerlifting, why would he jump backwards to a program best suited for a beginner to gain mass and strength? Also, doesn't, or hasn't, he recommended Reg Parks 5x5 to beginners in the past? Very similar to SS.

5/3/1 isn't better or worse, it is for an intermediate or more advanced lifter. SS is great for a beginner to gain a lot of strength as well as size quickly, and also get a solid foundation of form on your basic lifts. It is NOT a bodybuilding program. However, it is great to start on something like SS or SL to get a base level of strength, so if you decide to move onto a bodybuilding program you can actaully lift some respectable numbers. If you are only squatting 200lbs, good luck building much muscle on any type of program. It makes much more sense to get your squat up to 300lbs, maybe even 400lbs, and THEN jump onto a body building program where you will gain much more muscle by being able to lift some legitimate weights.

It is my understanding that Jamie Lewis and Rip actaully get a long, and that Jamie dislikes the cult like mentality that many SS people have about overtraining and not adding anything to SS.

I agree that SS isn't the best program for size, though it is very good for most beginners. It is a strength program to increase strength/size/performance in a new liter, not a bodybuilding program. So no, it isn't optimal for size, but it does a damn fine job of increasing strength very quickly.

The past 6 months I've been lifting consistantley after many spurts of 3 months on, 1-2 years off. I did SS for 3 months, and about to finish 3 months of Madcow. In 2 weeks, when I finish 3 months of Madcow, I am scheduled for a 365x5 squat and 230x5 bench. That should put me at about a 405x1 max squat, over 2x my bodyweight. Raw, no belt, no wraps, below parallel, no fucking smith machine. Not super impressive, but a respectable number. If I paid any attention to hitting enough protein each day, I'd imagine I'd be even stronger, bigger and leaner. Lazy fuck that I am.

Once I finish this out, I will probably jump onto a program like Lyle McDonalds or Layne Nortons bulking programs, which have a bigger emphasis on bodybuilding. That's a lie actaully, I need to cut some of this damn fat first so Fisto stops calling me fat. I can imagine that having a 405x1 squat will allow me to build much more muscle than if I only had a 175x1 squat, which most people would have after 6 months of not doing a legitimate strength program like SS/Sl/Madcow/WS4B/20 rep squats, a million other variations of heavy barbell training, etc and doing a split with legs once per week.

I also agree that SS gives you huge fucking legs, a good sized chest, but leaves the arms lacking a bit, from an aesthetic standpoint. After a couple of months on SS, if you can handle the recovery, do 3x8 weighted dips alternated with 3x8 weighted chinups. Then, if you still feel you can add more, throw 3x8-12 curls and skullcrushers at the end of your workout on Friday, and if you want more, try putting them at the end of Monday as well. I don't see how a program like that, intended for a beginner, could draw much hate.

GOMAD I think is only recommended for very skinny people and teenagers. I don't know how well it works. I know as a 28 year old male I wouldn't do GOMAD, I'd get fat as fuck. However, if I were a 16 year old kid, it may work great.




Bottom line, most people who hate on SS hate on it based on something it was never intended to be, a bodybuilding program. Is it perfect? No. But what routine is? Rip followers say SS is the best. Jamie Lewis say his advice is the best. SL has his cult of followers. Etc. None of them are perfect, and each have strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the day, for a beginner, heavy barbell training with a solid routine is going to give them very good gains.

Personally, I'd go for something like SS to build up my strength level, throw some accessory work like I mentioned above into it to help those arms grow, and then jump onto Madcow or The Texas Method to continue those strength gains. After you can lift some respectable weights I.E. squat/DL over 350lbs, bench over 225lbs, jump onto a program closer to whatever your specific goals are. Bodybuilding, powerlifting, crossfit, whatever.

But what the fuck do I know? I'm not too much more ahead of most beginners at this shit, ~1,000lb total. Take my advice for what it is.

Post: #233

I do SS 3 times a week, but the other 3 or 4 days I do biceps curls and upright rows at home (bought a set of dumbbells, great investment so far). I can't complain about looks. I get compliments lately.

Post: #234

So I'm wondering - lifting on SS rest days doesn't mess with your recovery?

Post: #235

Not really. But the at-home thing mostly trains upper body / arms, while SS hits the rest..

Post: #236

I am contemplating eating less...what happens if you just do more reps (i.e. 3x10 instead of 3x5) and/or do smaller/slower bar weight increases each workout? I would think you'll get stronger but it will take you more time to do it. Is that really so bad if you stay leaner? It's not like I'm in a hurry to make the HS football team tryouts next month.

Post: #237

(08-28-2013 01:22 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  I am contemplating eating less...what happens if you just do more reps (i.e. 3x10 instead of 3x5) and/or do smaller/slower bar weight increases each workout? I would think you'll get stronger but it will take you more time to do it. Is that really so bad if you stay leaner? It's not like I'm in a hurry to make the HS football team tryouts next month.

Lift in the 3x5 range still, but eat less. You dont have to decrease the weights. Lifting heavy wont make you gain fat, only your diet will. You may start to stall quicker, but just follow the program for what to do when you stall and continue.

Post: #238

(08-28-2013 01:22 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  I am contemplating eating less...what happens if you just do more reps (i.e. 3x10 instead of 3x5) and/or do smaller/slower bar weight increases each workout? I would think you'll get stronger but it will take you more time to do it. Is that really so bad if you stay leaner? It's not like I'm in a hurry to make the HS football team tryouts next month.

Mix it up. Switch to 3x10, or for that matter 3x15 to 20.

One of the biggest obstacles in any training program is boredom.

Switching from high weight low reps to lower weight high reps is one way of combating boredom.

It also has the virtue of keeping your muscles guessing.

Unless you're extremely cut and have low BMI, try increasing your reps and lowering the weight slightly.

Post: #239

(08-28-2013 06:10 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  Of course Jamie from Chaos and Pain lost strength when he did a 5x5 similar to SS, he is a world record holder in powerlifting, why would he jump backwards to a program best suited for a beginner to gain mass and strength? Also, doesn't, or hasn't, he recommended Reg Parks 5x5 to beginners in the past? Very similar to SS.

Yeah, the Jamie Lewis reference was a little too trollish to throw in there. He trains with almost nothing but heavy singles, doubles, and triples now.

Part of the reason why I'm not happy with SS is that Rippetoe had Bill Starr as his mentor (who did a bodyweight + 75# press, which was 'average' in his days of oly lifting) and yet neglects the press (once every other workout, three times in two weeks tops?!) and ignores the dip in his newbie program. A good modification of the SS workout would have the athlete pressing two or three days per week with the dip (or even the bench dip) as an accessory.
There are guys on the Gymnastic Bodies forum who have been busting ass for almost two years and still haven't gotten to the headstand pushup. Bill Star said it took him three years of dedicated pressing to put his bodyweight overhead, and another year to break 200 pounds. Here's the article, it's an excellent read for anybody interested in the press --

http://startingstrength.com/articles/str..._starr.pdf


SS is a great program to put on mass, for sure, but it also proves that developing a respectable squat can be done pretty quickly. Why not also make it a habit and get serious with the press from the get-go?

Post: #240

(08-29-2013 12:52 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  

(08-28-2013 01:22 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  I am contemplating eating less...what happens if you just do more reps (i.e. 3x10 instead of 3x5) and/or do smaller/slower bar weight increases each workout? I would think you'll get stronger but it will take you more time to do it. Is that really so bad if you stay leaner? It's not like I'm in a hurry to make the HS football team tryouts next month.

Mix it up. Switch to 3x10, or for that matter 3x15 to 20.

One of the biggest obstacles in any training program is boredom.

Switching from high weight low reps to lower weight high reps is one way of combating boredom.

It also has the virtue of keeping your muscles guessing.

Unless you're extremely cut and have low BMI, try increasing your reps and lowering the weight slightly.

Don't do this. Stick to a program for at least three months. If you jump around you won't see the progress you should. Seeing the weight increase on your squats and presses should be more than enough to keep you from getting bored. And doing 3x15-20 is not optimal for size or for strength, so I don't see the point in it unless you need to work your muscular endurance for some reason.

Better yet, go to a real lifting forum for your advice. Want to travel the world and fuck girls? Come here. Want to learn something about lifting? Go to BB forums, t nation, wannabebig, crossfit forum, whatever. But go somewhere that deals with your goals specifically. Would you go to a weightlifting forum and ask for game advice? Go to the source.

Post: #241

Ironically, those forums are probably the worst place for advice. Aside from the obnoxious personalities, most of those guys are 24/7 gym rats. They don't travel travel and chase women till 4AM 3 nights a week. If you're doing that, that you need to get advice from people who live the same lifestyle while staying fit. As for rep ranges, I am going to have to disagree. 5 reps is certainly not optimal for size. I was doing weighted chins in the 5-6 rep range for a long time. When I took the weights off and and did chins in 15 rep range,my back took off. Some people respond better to higher volume.

Post: #242

(08-29-2013 04:07 AM)RussianSoul Wrote:  Ironically, those forums are probably the worst place for advice. Aside from the obnoxious personalities, most of those guys are 24/7 gym rats. They don't travel travel and chase women till 4AM 3 nights a week. If you're doing that, that you need to get advice from people who live the same lifestyle while staying fit. As for rep ranges, I am going to have to disagree. 5 reps is certainly not optimal for size. I was doing weighted chins in the 5-6 rep range for a long time. When I took the weights off and and did chins in 15 rep range,my back took off. Some people respond better to higher volume.

Quote where I said it was. It is certainly better for size and strength then doing just bodyweight though. 5x5 is an old school bodybuilding routine. People like Reg Park popularized it. I doubt you will find many big and strong guys who focus on 15-20 rep sets for their lifts. Many things have their place, but I don't think anyone would argue that 15-20 reps is what you should be doing for size, or for strength. At least not as your main lifts.

You are 6 foot 2 and 165lbs, I don't think size is exactly your area of expertise. You've got some good results with your training and you're very lean, but you are not big at all.

Those forums definitely are not the worst places for advice. You really think this forum has more knowledgeable posters about fitness, strength training, nutrition or bodybuilding than those forums? I think you grossly exaggerate the amount of time those guys spend in the gym, or how little people on here can spend in the gym. A lot of us travel and go out, but still spend 3-6 hours in the gym per week. That's more than enough time to pack on muscle and strength.

Post: #243

(08-29-2013 05:17 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(08-29-2013 04:07 AM)RussianSoul Wrote:  Ironically, those forums are probably the worst place for advice. Aside from the obnoxious personalities, most of those guys are 24/7 gym rats. They don't travel travel and chase women till 4AM 3 nights a week. If you're doing that, that you need to get advice from people who live the same lifestyle while staying fit. As for rep ranges, I am going to have to disagree. 5 reps is certainly not optimal for size. I was doing weighted chins in the 5-6 rep range for a long time. When I took the weights off and and did chins in 15 rep range,my back took off. Some people respond better to higher volume.

Quote where I said it was. It is certainly better for size and strength then doing just bodyweight though. 5x5 is an old school bodybuilding routine. People like Reg Park popularized it. I doubt you will find many big and strong guys who focus on 15-20 rep sets for their lifts. Many things have their place, but I don't think anyone would argue that 15-20 reps is what you should be doing for size, or for strength. At least not as your main lifts.

You are 6 foot 2 and 165lbs, I don't think size is exactly your area of expertise. You've got some good results with your training and you're very lean, but you are not big at all.

Those forums definitely are not the worst places for advice. You really think this forum has more knowledgeable posters about fitness, strength training, nutrition or bodybuilding than those forums? I think you grossly exaggerate the amount of time those guys spend in the gym, or how little people on here can spend in the gym. A lot of us travel and go out, but still spend 3-6 hours in the gym per week. That's more than enough time to pack on muscle and strength.

Like I said, I have been over 30 pounds heavier at times. I choose to be lighter. Starting Strength isnt 5x5. I did Reg Parks routine a while back when I was hovering around 190. Its very high volume in the advanced stages, a lot of assistance lifts and is very different from SS. If Starting Strength is so effective for lean mass, where are the pics? Rio?The ones I have seen the guy just become fatter. Prove me wrong...

There is solid advice to be found on those forums but you are nuts if you think guys will reach their optimal physique with just 3-6 hours a week in the gym. Hell, the serious guys are spending 6 hours a week just preparing their meals. Its a full-time job.

Post: #244

(08-29-2013 06:16 AM)RussianSoul Wrote:  Like I said, I have been over 30 pounds heavier at times. I choose to be lighter. Starting Strength isnt 5x5. I did Reg Parks routine a while back when I was hovering around 190. Its very high volume in the advanced stages, a lot of assistance lifts and is very different from SS. If Starting Strength is so effective for lean mass, where are the pics? Rio?The ones I have seen the guy just become fatter. Prove me wrong...

There is solid advice to be found on those forums but you are nuts if you think guys will reach their optimal physique with just 3-6 hours a week in the gym. Hell, the serious guys are spending 6 hours a week just preparing their meals. Its a full-time job.

SS is a beginner routine, so you won't find a bunch of giant and lean guys from that program. Do you really think you can't put on muscle by doing heavy bench, press, squats and deadlifts?

Lean mass is all about diet, so I see you emphasis lean, but you should know that is based on diet. Squat, deadlift, bench, press, and row heavy and have your diet in order and of course you can put on lean mass. Do you really think that you can't?

Another reason you won't find many guys on SS who are big and cut up, aside from it being a beginners program, is because packing on lean mass is hugely dependent on your diet. Most guys doing SS are brand new to lifting, so don't know shit about diet.

You mentioned Martin from lean gains being one of the few big guys who are also ripped that you know of. Well, he has mentioned numerous times that he spends 45 minutes in the gym 3x per week. Doesn't that go against your whole argument?

And again, I never said you will reach your optimal physique in 3-6 hours in the gym per week. Where did I write that? Stop putting words in my mouth to try to make your argument more convincing.

I'm not talking about professional bodybuilders here. You keep going to extremes, in this thread and the other, with your Ronnie Coleman and silverback gorilla talk. You realize that not everyone who wants to be big and strong wants to be a professional bodybuilder, right?

Here is Reg Parks beginner 5x5, which is very similar to SS. The first two sets are warmup sets, so it's the same 3x5 work set as SS. He has more steps to the program after you advance, but this is his beginner routine. Very similar to SS. http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_arti...x5_program

Quote:Reg Park's Three Phase 5x5 Program

Phase One

45-degree back extension 3x10
Back squat 5x5
Bench press 5x5
Deadlift 5x5

Rest 3-5 minutes between the last 3 sets of each exercise.

Train three days per week for three months.

Post: #245

A couple other guys who have physiques like I am talking about, I.E. not Ronnie Coleman or anything close to that, is the Hodge Twins. Yeah, I know they give bro science advice and what ever else you want to say about them to discredit my argument, but they have good physiques with a lot of muscle.

They have said they go to the gym 6 days per week, for about 45 minutes per workout. That's less than 6 hours. They look pretty good if you ask me.

Post: #246

re: reps

its pretty widely accepted that there is a spectrum between low reps and high reps that is basically this:


1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10+
low reps------->high reps
strength------->mass

Ripp uses 5 reps because he thinks it is in the zone that can get you the best balance of strength and mass.

20 rep schemes will definitely build mass, but they wont build top level strength
same with doing heavy singles only, you can get super strong that way but you wont build swole up muscles. but then again, its all about diet when it comes to gaining mass. no rep scheme in the world will help if you aren't eating right.

----------


SS is only a beginner routine in the sense that it expects linear progress. once linear progress has been exhausted, your are no longer considered a beginner. its not because of the lifts.

some people can get beginner linear gains for a long time.

i'm still getting linear gains on my OHP (1RM = 200 lbs) but my deadlift requires periodization and varying levels of output (1RM = 505 lbs)

Post: #247

(08-29-2013 08:03 AM)reaper23 Wrote:  re: reps

its pretty widely accepted that there is a spectrum between low reps and high reps that is basically this:


1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10+
low reps------->high reps
strength------->mass

Ripp uses 5 reps because he thinks it is in the zone that can get you the best balance of strength and mass.

20 rep schemes will definitely build mass, but they wont build top level strength
same with doing heavy singles only, you can get super strong that way but you wont build swole up muscles. but then again, its all about diet when it comes to gaining mass. no rep scheme in the world will help if you aren't eating right.

----------


SS is only a beginner routine in the sense that it expects linear progress. once linear progress has been exhausted, your are no longer considered a beginner. its not because of the lifts.

some people can get beginner linear gains for a long time.

i'm still getting linear gains on my OHP (1RM = 200 lbs) but my deadlift requires periodization and varying levels of output (1RM = 505 lbs)

Here is generally the chart I follow:

1-5 strength, 6-12 hypertrophy, 13+ endurance.

Crazy you can still get gains on your OHP via linear progression. How much weight do you add per week to it? I did 130x5 yesterday at 185lbs and I am struggling to add 5lbs per week on Madcow. Puts me at like 140-145ish for a 1RM. I can imagine it will take me quite a while to hit 1rm bodyweight, especially since I plan to cut soon.

Post: #248

yeah that was the chart i was basically trying to recreate (poorly) in my message

ive gotten down to adding as little as 1.25 lbs

of course when I say linear progression, its in the same mindset as SS, where if you stall, deload a little bit and start over. it hasn't been a straight march up the hill with no set backs. not at all.

and i've shifted rep schemes down to triples also.


my deadlift just wont work like that these days. using Coan Phillipi right now to go from 505 to 525. I'm in week 6 of ten now.

Post: #249

My deadlift is for shit. I dropped the weight down to 335x5 yesterday because I'm having form issues. My back is rounding. I'm not sure what the deal is, but it's fucking up my whole program lol. At the end of this Madcow in a couple of weeks I should be pulling 385x5. I'm going to fall well short of that though. I think I *could* hit that weight at the end of the program, but I really need to get my form in order.

Squats are shooting up like crazy though.

Post: #250

this is my deadlift workout for tomorrow:

Week 6
Deadlift (85%): 1x2 @ 445 lbs
Speed deadlift (70%): 3x3 @ 370 lbs (120 sec rest b/w sets)
Power shrugs (65% of current): 3x5 @ 330 lbs