Post: #51

^^^ I agree. The current mainstream system of family formation only works for those in the upper middle class and above.

Post: #52

I guess I'm getting caught up on definitions. Does MGTOW mean you don't date or have sex with women?

Post: #53

(10-09-2016 11:34 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  ^^^ I agree. The current mainstream system of family formation only works for those in the upper middle class and above.

And, ironically, these couples have 1-2 children, while the rest of the country is populated by single moms with 3-4 kids collecting child support from multiple fathers.

Post: #54

(10-09-2016 11:35 AM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  I guess I'm getting caught up on definitions. Does MGTOW mean you don't date or have sex with women?

No. Marriage and shacking up with women is where the present risk lies.

Post: #55

(10-09-2016 10:11 AM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(10-09-2016 09:19 AM)Vaun Wrote:  

(10-09-2016 06:04 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(10-08-2016 09:47 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  I'm not part of the [MGTOW] movement and have no idea to what degree it's occupied by resentful basement dwellers or cultural counter-revolutionaries.

It's populated by resentful basement dwellers who think that they are cultural counter-revolutionaries.

I don't blame these young men. In fact I feel sorry for them. They are largely being influenced by the propaganda of older men. Older men who were divorce raped, divorced multiple times and extremely bitter towards women in general. Men deciding to make their lives in areas and countries, whose lives are ruined after a common occurrence like divorce(Canada, US, UK, AU). Men who are ruined financially and out of shape. Men who dont turn the mirror around on themselves and ask what they could have done differently, and still just blame. Its a victim mindset. Men who never moved on from their divorces, discovered game, were impotent when defending their rights as fathers, did not challenge egregious alimony judgements, did not work hard for a reasonable divorce settlement.

Thats where I see this ideology originating from. And these kids are picking it up, when challenges with girls are at their peak. When I was their age I admired rock stars, authors and entrepreneurs, not divorce raped men. These kids need game. Just dont get married, get someone pregnant, get arrested or get a loan. Its that easy. Its healthy for them to work and build something, but jesus, go get a little pussy too.

Also add to that.

Don't stick your dick in crazy. And no, because you think this one chick is really awesome or "she's trying to change" doesn't make her not crazy.

I will give a pass to a few of those, as long as you wrap it up, and shes buying you lunches, dinners, beer and sneakers. Just like we did in high school

Post: #56

"Also add to that.
Don't stick your dick in crazy. And no, because you think this one chick is really awesome or "she's trying to change" doesn't make her not crazy."


So here's a fun question. 1/4th of the American female population is on anti-depressants. If you support this rule, do you support 25% of the male population of the United States going MGTOW?

Post: #57

(10-09-2016 11:23 AM)Enoch Wrote:  Frankly some of the guys on this forum don't understand how hard is it economically for the average blue collar man and how that negatively impacts his romantic life. If you lose your job, your wife might just leave you and take your kids. You cant' control whether or not you lose your job. MGTOW is an understandable reaction to an economy that doesn't value blue collar labor anymore and attention whoring women reinforced by no-fault divorce and child support. For many men, dropping out completely of the carnal market is the optimal solution in terms of long term economic welfare.

This is that sort of MGTOW thinking, which implies that the man basically has no control over a relationship or any interaction with women. That you can basically just show up, and a woman is happily supposed to suck your dick for 50 years. Funny how there is never any mention on what the men brought to the table. This is the antithesis of leadership.

I can see this negatively impacting any sort of relationship you would have with a woman.

Suits, agree 100%. These forums and this talk would be better suited focusing on goals and accomplishments. Unfortunately for a lot of young and old men, it just equates to seductive click bait and YouTube "talks".

Post: #58

Hell I know plenty of men who have gone though periods of unemployment while their women supported them, while I've also known plenty who have been divorced despite always holding a job. Guess which group had game?

Game is what keeps relationships strong, not making your woman financially dependent on you. Thats why game is now more important then ever, since more and more women are supporting themselves (with government assistance more often than not, I concede).

Post: #59

Sometimes I wonder if people on this forum are a bit too harsh. As mentioned by an earlier poster, a lot of men have blue collar jobs and it's not that easy to completely turn your life around and become succesful.

All the great examples we know, from Roosh to Cernovich, they all have had an undergrad degree and a white collar job at some point. Not only that, they're extremely intelligent people (I don't want to get into a debate of IQ, but for argument's sake I think it's safe to assume they both have IQs above 130).

On this forum we forget that the average man has an IQ of a 100. We forget that a certain level of intelligence is indeed required to understand TRP and game. We forget you need a certain level of attentiveness and conscientiousness to actually read a book (reading books comes naturally to me, but for many it is an absolute struggle). We forget you also need a certain level of support to change your life around. We forget how fucking hard it really is to change your life around. Is ambition something you can learn or an inherent trait? I don't know the answer, I've always been ambitious. Not everyone I know was. And some people never will be. All they want is a good-looking job, a supporting wife and a kid or two. And that is OK. It is OK to want a simple life. One of the most valuable things I learned was that a healthy society is built for the average person, not the highly intelligent and ambitious kind.

That is why I support MGTOW in theory. The average man is supremely fucked in modern society. All this stuff about learning game is excruciatingly hard if you're not naturally inclined towards the dark triad. I'm finally getting to a point where I'm doing OK game-wise and it took me several years to get my shit together. In many ways I'm lucky that I am intelligent and ambitious. Because God knows if I was around the 100 IQ mark and not so ambitious, I'd be screwed.

I look at my dad, who didn't even finish high school and can barely speak English. Yeah he's intelligent and ambitious. But he's never read books in his life. He doesn't read forums. If he had to learn game, he'd be fucked. That's why I say I support MGTOW as a philosophy. For many men, learning game isn't feasible. For the same reason, I have little respect for many self-help books and biographies - you really do need certain attributes to make those things happen. And the one problem I genuinely have with self-help books is that they argue ANYONE can be successful in life as long as they follow the advice. No they can't.

That said, I hold no opinion on actual MGTOW. If they really are mostly young smart guys who are basement dwellers and have the opportunity/energy/intelligence/perseverance to learn game - then yeah, they need to get off their asses. But the average blue collar guy - good lord, guys, have a bit of pity.

Post: #60

I'm a level 4 in the west when I come back to work. I'm only here to work, can't be fucked hanging with degenerates

Post: #61

^So blue collar guys can't be successful?

Post: #62

No, of course blue collar guys can be succesful. Many are exceptionally smart. But I believe there's a LOT of guys out there who simply don't have the traits to learn game and be successful. And I'm sure this applies to a section of white collar guys as well. Though my guess is that on average, white collar guys read more, have more access to mentors and ambitious/smart people and have a larger safety net/cushion.

Post: #63

(10-09-2016 05:41 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  No, of course blue collar guys can be succesful. Many are exceptionally smart. But I believe there's a LOT of guys out there who simply don't have the traits to learn game and be successful. And I'm sure this applies to a section of white collar guys as well. Though my guess is that on average, white collar guys read more, have more access to mentors and ambitious/smart people and have a larger safety net/cushion.

before I was 25, when I was an uneducated, house painting/roofing, drop out guy, driving a beat up Ranger/Nissan/Toyota pick up, I had an older professional/educated girlfriend for several years who basically did everything for me, including buying me things, paying my rent, feeding me, drove her nice brand new jeep, traveled together, etc. She wanted babies and marriage and I bailed. She changed my life. Before that, was the daughter of a successful doctor who was the dirtiest little gf a guy could ask for, and would walk on glass for me. Great gf, for several years. After that I married one that made these two look like chump change.

I dont buy this "whoa is me I'm blue collar" talk for a second. Some of the happiest guys I know are blue collar guys, with educated working wives. More mgtow victim man talk.

Post: #64

How many years ago was that, if you don't mind me asking?

Post: #65

Haven't these guys heard of Charisma Man?



Those guys must have read this thread and decided to stay home.

Post: #66

What I don't get is most can see how silly MGTOW(the group and some of the silly ideas they have) it's the men's form of feminism, basically quitting on some level if I had to summarize both movements and yet feminism managed to succeed to unimaginable levels somehow, permeating nearly every piece of culture in the western world despite all odds. I don't get it.

Post: #67

(10-09-2016 07:17 PM)Jackreacher Wrote:  What I don't get is most can see how silly MGTOW(the group and some of the silly ideas they have) it's the men's form of feminism, basically quitting on some level if I had to summarize both movements and yet feminism managed to succeed to unimaginable levels somehow, permeating nearly every piece of culture in the western world despite all odds. I don't get it.

I'd say it's because people are naturally drawn to women's weakness. It's OK to be weak as a woman and society will sympathize with them. For men, on the other hand, weakness is seen as repulsive (especially by women and therefore society, perhaps not other men).

Think about how BPDs pull guys in - there's always a certain amount of weakness that they display, it tugs at men's desire to be the knight in shining armor, save the woman and win her eternal love. Feminism thrives because it runs on that instinct of men to save women. On the other hand, no woman finds a weak man attractive. Another reason why feminism works is because of intragender dynamics, women will console other women in times of need. They naturally form communities of support. Men on the other hand - we tend to be pretty hard on each other. Of course, when it comes down to it, it's men who have to deal with the harsh reality of the world. That's why we bust each others' balls and we've evolved to be far more logical, even if it means we lost a few friends.

The simple fact that we have factions, MRA, MGTOW, neomasculinity, etc shows this. Look at feminism on the other hand: you want to slut it up, you go girl, you're a feminist. You hate men and want to be a cat lady, you go girl, you're a feminist. As a woman you can take any position and other women will support you. As men, there's always going to be a fraction that criticizes you no matter.

Post: #68

(10-09-2016 01:17 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  "Also add to that.
Don't stick your dick in crazy. And no, because you think this one chick is really awesome or "she's trying to change" doesn't make her not crazy."


So here's a fun question. 1/4th of the American female population is on anti-depressants. If you support this rule, do you support 25% of the male population of the United States going MGTOW?

Trick question, that's not a binary double bind. I advocate that 25% of the female population becoming incel.

Post: #69

(10-09-2016 07:17 PM)Jackreacher Wrote:  What I don't get is most can see how silly MGTOW(the group and some of the silly ideas they have) it's the men's form of feminism, basically quitting on some level if I had to summarize both movements and yet feminism managed to succeed to unimaginable levels somehow, permeating nearly every piece of culture in the western world despite all odds. I don't get it.

I respectfully disagree with your comparison as to the similarity of feminism and MGTOW.

In my view, feminists are one of many groups whose members share the same traits: envy, anger, avarice, gluttony, sloth, lust, pride.

Members of groups such as these paint themselves as victims for the express purpose of obtaining entitlement. Their sole means of achieving entitlement is through acting out, en masse, which has proven to be an effective strategy in modern non-judgemental liberal Christian western society.

I just don't see the same as being true for MGTOW. Although many/most may feel themselves to be victims with many having feelings of anger, their purpose has nothing to do with entitlement. To the contrary, their path leads toward self reliance, in whatever form it may manifest.

I'm not an apologist, just stating the case as I see it.

________________________________________________________________________________​_______

"Our greatest happiness does not depend on the condition of life in which chance has placed us, but is always the result of a good conscience, good health, occupation, and freedom in all just pursuits."

Thomas Jefferson

Post: #70

I thought MGTOW was one socially disengaging from marriage in the West, which leads to these benefits:

1. You can't be a slave to a woman if you ain't married.
2. No risk of deprivation of liberties due to child support payments, alimony
3. Saving more money because no wife, kids & excess mortgage payments.
4. No money to pay for 50,000$ wedding & honeymoon.
5. No Divorce Court rape which seizes 50%+ of your assets.
6. If excess cash is saved from avoiding the downfalls of marrying, one can save as early as mid 30s- early 40s for retirements in Poosy Paradises such as Philippines, Viet Nam and "Communist" China (who imprison feminists for defying "The Party").

The MGTOW I am thinking was about "Economic MGTOW". One can disengage from the mainstream Western society, & still save money to get laid in South-East Asia every six months because the $$$ is saved up as compared to becoming a marriage servant who is one key away to entering prison for missing a child support payment for a kid that isn't even his own.

Post: #71

(10-09-2016 10:02 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Suits has delivered a harsh but fair judgement (on more than one occasion now)

An MGTOW movement that was like this forum absent the game-specific content would be respectable. Everyone dropping the bar to half and inch and then patting each other on the back for jumping it is kind of sad.

If every MGTOW could point to just a single reasonable aspect of their lives that was in any way admirable then I'm sure we'd all applaud. We'd applaud the guy making huge $tacks. We'd applaud the guy who was 6 feet tall and 240 pounds of fatless muscle. We'd applaud the guy building custom motorcycles, winning the regional 3 gun competition or taking a trophy buck every season. In other words, bringing honour to their movement and in doing so winning over converts.

I'm not knee deep in MGTOW culture, but I'm guessing such accomplishments are few and far between.

Case in point a man who calls himself Trevor Freeman:

Post: #72

Can I clarify about Economic MGTOW rather than the stereotyped "Incel" MGTOW?

Case A: A man starts to work as a Doctor in Canada at 25 in year 2010. His starting earnings for a doctor is about 200,000$ a year.

He marries a cupcake at age 27 in 2012, & he saved at least 100,000$ from working those two years. His marriage ceremony & party costs him 50,000$ at least. He saves on average 50,000$ a year after living expenses and medical practice expense. Let's estimate that his salary increases by 10,000$ a year every year which goes straight into his savings.

In 2013, He is "forced" to take on a huge mortgage for a house which cupcake wants, situated near a school zone, or gentrified area like Leslieville, Greenwood, Leaside area of Toronto. He surrenders his remaining 120,000$ in savings, plus his other savings, while cupcake offers little or nothing for the mortgage downpayment. The Doctor is on the hook for an additional 850,000+ plus mortgage. His mortgage payments are about 25,000$ a year, assuming that interest rates remain on his mortgage the same for 10 years, in which he will pay about 2,000$ a month.

Plus, the doctor is forced to pay additional property tax rates about 5,000$-10,000$ a year because his home is near a school zone so that his taxes pay for his future kid's teacher to teach his kid how his father is a monster, while the teacher, most likely a woman, is in a "relationship" with the school bully who bullies his future kid.

Because the Doctor took on a mortgage and marriage, his additional expenses increase by 25,000$ per year. The Doctor is now saving about 30,000$ every year.

In 2015, the wife is pregnant. In 2016, the wife delivers a female womb turd. The doctor now has to work harder to pay for his kid's need. His medical office hours increase. He works ten hour shifts a day to bill more patients in order to upkeep the lifestyle that his wife wanted. The more he works in his office, the more overhead he incurs which eat up his profit.

In 2021, the child turns age 5, and wifey wants to send her to private school and luxury summer camps in order to Keep up with the Jones-es in Leaside who were "foreign investors" working in oil smuggling and sex trade trafficking in I$I$-occupied Middle East.

In 2031, the child turns 15 & during a private discussion with a female school worker who would usually have sex with the boys who attend her after-school detention, the Doctor is whisked away from his medical office and jailed for Satanic Illuminati childsexabuse which occurred on the Planet Pluto.

The wife believes the female teacher who just swallowed some of her students' cum accusing her doctor husband as the one molesting his daughter in a far away planet. The wife files for divorce. The doctor's Assets, life savings and Leaside house is seized despite that he hired one of the best (lawyers) in the world to defend his case.

The doctor is jailed a mandatory minimum sentence of twenty years on no evidence. His medical license is revoked, and he cannot work in Medicine anywhere. He cannot even look at a 17-year-old "child" on the street because he will be whisked away to see a female Psychiatrist who will castrate him with drugs.

He is 46 years old, broke & in jail until he is 66. He cannot travel abroad because of pro-feminist laws which stigmatize any man accused of any offense made against a female, even verbal "harassment".

.....

Case B: Man, same age 25, in 2010, works 30,000$ a year in which he saves at least 5,000$ a year. He doesn't marry, and only games once every three weeks. He saves at least 50,000$ in the next ten years, 2020. He invested some of his savings in investments which give a return on his value, giving him some passive income he can live off in the countryside.

He finally sets up an online business & travels to "retire" in the Philippines on his 50,000$+ plus savings & passive income from his investments and online business.

There is no wife to respond to in Divorce Court.

There is no kid listening to a teacher who fucks the school bully to invent false memories to accuse you of a Satanic ritual abuse.

...I thought Case B was MGTOW.

Plus, I didn't realize that living middle-upper class in expensive when creating a family in the Western countries! An extra 500 American dollars a month can give me more freedom in South East Asia, but 500 like nothing in major Western cities for sure, especially when it comes to marriage.

Post: #73

As a happily married man who's carefully chosen wife has stuck with him through thick and thin, I find it hard to understand this "reverse lottery" mindset so many MGTOW and RVFers have about marriage.

There seems to be some bizarre assumption that marriage involves tossing a rock in busy shopping centre and getting hitched to the first woman it bounces off of, thereafter being a slave to the results of sheer happenstance.

I hear you thinking, "but Lenny, don't you know that forfty percent of all marriages fail in the first five seconds and 142 percent of divorced men end up selling their ass on the street for crack."

Surely RVFers should be aware that guys with game are a serious minority in this world today, and that they will obviously fare better in marriage just as they do in banging and indeed in life in general. The anti-marriage brigade seems to consist of two groups, and I'm going to offend people here:

a) Guys who don't want to get married anyway, so seriously, why the fuck do you even care.
b) Guys who want to get married but just don't have the game to make it work in this day and age (MGTOW central).

But, whatever. Let's not let the hundreds of thousands of savvy men married to supportive, loyal women undermine what's become the latest incarnation of the he-man wuman haters club.

Post: #74

(10-10-2016 01:58 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  b) Guys who want to get married but just don't have the game to make it work in this day and age (MGTOW central).

I guess I don't see the advantage to me in that situation. If you have to constantly game your wife, what's the point of marriage? You could apply the same gamesmanship to getting a variety of women without the chance that they'll divorce you if you slip up and forget to game them.

The advantage of a wife should be loyalty rooted in vows, not constant game. Otherwise, she's just hanging out on your branch until something better comes along...and there's always a better offer eventually no matter how great we think we are.

Post: #75

(10-10-2016 01:00 AM)RBerkley Wrote:  Horror story

If a feminist wrote on Jezebel that WGTOW was a valid movement because if you get married your husband will enslave you, rape you, become a brute, force you to cook and clean for him, stop you from working, force you to have babies until your womb implodes and then cheat on you with his secretary before leaving you as a broken husk, we'd all be laughing at it as too far out.

Also: "Womb turds"? Really?

If it's a monetary argument, hell, don't even bother having friends 'cos you might have to buy them a round. Friends add value to your life, so does family.