Post: #76

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of digestive problems do you have?

You could give the targeted keto diet a try, slam shots of olive oil, take psyllium husk and eat fatty meats.

Then when you have to lift you drink some gatorade.

My girlfriend had 5 feet of intestine removed and she has digestive problems aside from that, one of the things she does to maintain any kind of weight at all is to not shy away from fats. I would almost say her diet is Zone-like (33/33/33 split). Helps out her micronutrient profile too.

Honestly, I would say you're not a bad candidate for a program like Power to the People where you just get as strong as you possibly can at a certain size and you don't lift to failure.

There was a guy who did that (CriticalMAS) and he put on twenty pounds of muscle over three years without once breaking a sweat. Self proclaimed ectomorph, "nothing ever worked for him" stickboy kind of guy.

You could do that for two or three days a week, spend 20 minutes at the gym each time and watch your strength slowly climb up without beating yourself to death or gorging.

That's a far cry from putting in too much effort for too little payoff and it would not detract much from any kind of schedule.

Post: #77

Dunno man, went to a bunch of different doctors asking for a detailed diagnosis, and the turds (GPs) just look at you with the "just hurry up and get out my office so I can collect my cheque" face, and mutter some vague stuff in a begrudging tone. Might just have been because they're Australians though.

Would be nice if one had said "ok take an MRI scan, ok see this here -- this is why you have the appetite and digestive throughput of a gnat". But that would require them giving a shit about anything and doing some work. I reckon society would be massively improved if you just annihilated the prescription system and cast 80% of those deadweights loose.

Post: #78

(08-29-2016 12:07 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  To follow your other analogy, if he did those 2 things hardcore for 5 months, and everyone else was promoted except him; or all his non-gaming friends got laid except him, yes I would say give up. I wouldn't say give up on everything, I'd say "try something else".

Everything has a cost. You wouldn't get a microwave if it cost 50% of your income every month. To condense my point: some men, albeit very few, should not weight lift as part of their self-improvement, but should do something else.

And to address the edits:
You are simply not listening to what I'm saying. You're trying to narrow this debate to "anyone can change their body". I am not debating that fact, I am debating that it is always worth it; return on investment etc.

On the "proper attempt" I assume you mean sustained at the same previous level over 2 years: simply can't be done because I need that mass of time and energy for other important projects I'm working on. I would be in a massively worse position in 2 years if made that decision.

I really don't think anyone should be giving up on a career, or women, or weightlifting after 5 months. If you think thats long enough to have put a decent effort into something that probably doesn't speak much to your work ethic. After 5 months of a job, or being single, or weightlifting, almost nobody is good at them. It takes hard work and practice to improve.

I think thats where our lines are crossed, so. Primarily, I don't understand how 3-4 hours a week of anything could be a "mass of time and energy" so desperately needed for other projects. Weightlifting just doesn't have to take up that much of your time - and the time it does take up provides a nice distraction from more intellectually draining pursuits. Thats why I think any man can benefit from it, not many things in life give such a big return on time invested, especially without being mentally taxing (and as such a distraction from their career).

To sum up, you:

- Initially claimed you'd made "a serious, sustained and honest crack at gaining weight" - only to be corrected by many in the thread that 5 months wasn't near long enough for this
- Then said weightlifting was pointless because you "only" gained 3KG of weight in 5 months - again only to be corrected by many in the thread that this is actually quite good going
- Blamed the fact you are too small to begin with/live in Australia so physical competition is too high for you to even bother trying - which Lechon's height analogy counter-explained well.
- Next, blamed the fact it took up too much time - comparing it to your microwave costing 50% of income analogy, your basketball playing 8 hours a day analogy - again only to be told it needn't be more than 3 hours a week
- Finally, blamed the fact that eating was too hard. Despite the fact this is the easiest thing to overcome.

It does just look like you're desperately looking for excuses not to weightlift. Which is fine, if you're set in your (incorrect) view, it will only negatively impact your life. But you really shouldn't advise others not to weightlift when they stand to benefit from it, its quite negative life advice.

Post: #79

^ Nah, you're just being smug and dismissive, feel free to continue enjoying that. There isn't a single thing I or anyone else could possible say, even "I don't have a stomach" or "I have muscular dystrophy", that would get you off your "just try harder" moral high horse. Saying eating is the easiest thing to overcome, after going over in detail why everthing has been tried including using the stuff hospitals use. No doubt being arrogant on the Internet makes you feel more confident in yourself, and that's fine, we all have our crutches. Don't let the facts or anything the other person says get in the way of that. After all, the most important thing isn't being reasonable but sounding more righteous that the other guy.

Feel free to continue indulging in your smug dad trolling, your ignorance of all my "opportunity cost" arguments so you can continue your smug berating "desperately looking for excuses" lines. I hope you enjoy sitting on that little high horse of yours, but since your feed of text is worthless and self-serving, it's now blocked.

Post: #80

To anybody else (people capable of debating reasonably and in good faith, and are capable of more than drone-like virtue signaling, and who don't ignore presented information that gets in the way of their desire to virtue signal, i.e. almost all of the rest of the membership):

Should a man's investment into body building be unlimited and without regard to the payoff and opportunity costs?

That is, if the cost is genuinely high (e.g. 3-4 hours unpleasant force feeding per day), and the possible payoff is nil (because every other man will be more muscular anyway), should it be done anyway?

Or more simply: do you believe the relative value of muscular gains is infinite?

Post: #81

You're again making an unrealistic straw-man excuse there, though. Nobody needs to spend "3-4 hours force feeding per day". It can be unpleasant forcing yourself to eat more, absolutely. But it just doesn't require anywhere near that. A normal diet with 2-3 easily made high cal shakes gets anyone up to that, which is at the very most 30 minutes a day of effort.

If you had provided a legit biological reason for not being able to put on muscle (ie an actual medically diagnosed condition) I wouldn't doubt you at all. It's just that you've jumped from excuse to excuse as the thread has evolved, each of which has been more flimsy than the last. And the overriding theme has been "I tried my hardest! There is no possible way I could have tried harder! There is no way I'll EVER put on muscle!". You haven't been willing to accept at all that you didn't give weightlifting a good enough effort to accurately evaluate it. Or willing to accept responsibility that the fault may lay with you, in any way.

I don't think providing responses to each of your excuses in turn is being "smug" and "on a high horse" and all that. If anything its providing solutions to problems you had working out. But you clearly don't want to hear them, because they disagree with your world view. Its an awful shame, because from the sounds of things as a severely underweight guy weightlifting is exactly what you need.

I wasn't trying to put you down in this thread, for whats it worth. My two main thoughts were A) you, personally, should give weightlifting another try, where you give it a proper effort. It could have a massively positive influence on your life - which would be a great outcome for the thread. Or B) if you were set in your ways personally, then at least you could be convinced not to drag anyone else reading the thread down to the same "giving up" mental level at least. Its just not good life advice to be giving to people on the forum to never try hard at anything that requires more than 5 months effort.

But, if you've gone ahead and blocked me because you don't like your worldview being questioned in a fairly polite manner that says it all I guess.

Post: #82

(08-30-2016 10:02 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  To anybody else (people capable of debating reasonably and in good faith, and are capable of more than drone-like virtue signaling, and who don't ignore presented information that gets in the way of their desire to virtue signal, i.e. almost all of the rest of the membership):

Should a man's investment into body building be unlimited and without regard to the payoff and opportunity costs?

That is, if the cost is genuinely high (e.g. 3-4 hours unpleasant force feeding per day), and the possible payoff is nil (because every other man will be more muscular anyway), should it be done anyway?

Or more simply: do you believe the relative value of muscular gains is infinite?

Well it's all relative. You can either be the best version of yourself that you possibly can by lifting hard and eating right, or you can be skinny/fat/skinnyfat/whatever. Comparing yourself to others is a useless game. I'll probably never look like Arnold in his hey but I know damn well that I look a hell of a lot better now than I would have if I had stayed not lifting and slamming pizza and candy into my face, real talk.

Post: #83

If despite the fact that no matter how much you improve your game, some guys will have better game, is it worth improving your game at all?

I don't know what this force feeding is. Say you need to increase you calories by 50%, and you typically spend an hour a day total eating. So you just cook larger portions and at most your spending an hour and a half a day eating. I would say unless if you are preparing for a competition, splitting your meals up to 6-7 meals a day is unnecessary and the gains will be marginal at best. But even then the food prepartion time is the same, assuming you are cooking once and reheating the food in the microwave or something.

Post: #84

1000 calories is like two bowls of ice cream. I find it hard to believe that's difficult to add to a diet.

6-7 meals is a waste- one should wait 3 to 3.5 hours between meals.

Post: #85

Looks like Phoenix didn't like the responses he received here so moved his rather angry excuse-hamster'ing to a different thread:

/thread-5522-...pid1384029

Quote:"Deliberately ignore repeated statements of facts so you can stay on your high-horse" troll.

E.g.
A: I can't go jogging because I'm blind.
B: You need to stop making excuses for your lazyness.
A: I didn't say I'm lazy, I do other exercise, I said I can't run fast because I'm blind.
B: You're just making excuses for you lazy behaviour. You've got no good reason not to be exercising.
A: I've said repeatedly that I'm blind, and I've told you I do other excercise. Are you fucking retarded?
B: See you're just blaming other people for your decision not to excercise. You could walk outside right now and jog around your local block, but you're making a conscious decision not to.
A: Fuck off troll piece of shit.

He's now comparing the advice everyone is giving him in this thread to a blind man being told to go for a jog... I don't think he's ever going to agree with the forum consensus on this unfortunately, he's clearly got some deep-seated issues relating to his body image.

Post: #86

eatthis, comparing yourself to others is not pointless, it's very important. Fight the battles you can win.

Repo you don't know what the force feeding is because like others in this thread, you have no interest in reading what I actually wrote, just in responding. Same goes for Rex about the icecream. I've repeatedly explained and replied about the force feeding. "Just eat more" is easy to say until you've occupied my body. I can imagine the look if bewilderment on your face when you tried doing what you think is so easy and say "wait, I'm full already? wait, it's 5 hours later why do I feel sick when I try eating more? why does exercise make me less hungry instead of more like everyone else?".

Talk and using the word "just" doesn't override reality.

Post: #87

Your stomach adapts like any other part of your body. If you eat more than you are accustomed to, then sure at first it will feel like force feeding. But this will stretch your stomach out over a week or two, as it will adjust to this new appetite. Likewise, when you cut the first few days are the hardest because your stomach has not yet adjusted.

The easiest way to add more calories would be to eat what you normally eat, but pick a time and make a high calorie smoothie. Throw oatmeal, greek yogurt, protient mix, fruits, vegetebles. . .whatever as long as they are quality ingredients and high calorie. Making it will take 10 minutes tops. Sip on it throught the rest of your day. Again, yes the first few times it may feel like force feeding, but unless if you have a medical condition your body will adapt and even start to crave the extra calories.

Post: #88

Are you just trolling me? Like that zatara guy was? Restrain your urge to spew your opinion into the internet and READ what I've ALREADY posted.

Post: #89

Fair enough, but the returns on comparing yourself to others diminish very quickly, especially when you're saying things to yourself like "oh, I'll never look like Arnold/Chris Jones/[insert whoever you want to look like here] so what's the point of even trying". That's the point I'm trying to make.

Post: #90

Post: #91

The first post.actually convinced me never to do this "4 hour body" thing... in my entire life... ever.

Post: #92

Phoenix - We exchanged PM before, I think this is sort of a manifestation of what we talked about in PM. Trust me, I know how you feel but you're letting your feeling of inadequacy affecting your view here. It isn't as hard as you make it out to be and the benefit isn't as small as you think.

If anyone met me knows that my body composition is not far from the dude in the picture. I'm a true hard-gainer, my bones are as thin as girls bones. If there's a person authoritative to speak when it comes to how hard it is to gain muscle or how futile it can be to train if you're still gonna be smaller than the average guy anyway-it would be me.

My best year game wise was when I was around 135 lbs and 8% bf. I've had girls came up to me and rub my chest and calling her friends over to feel it. My confidence sky rocketed. Sure I was still smaller than most other guys and I won't be pulling girls 5'7 and above in height but the girls I can get became stupid easy and the girls I can sometimes get became easier.

How long do you think it took me to achieved this? 3-4 month. I lost about 15 lbs fat and gain about 10 lbs muscle. 10 lbs muscle is nothing in the bodybuilding world but it already made a huge difference for me, can you imagine if I gained 25 lbs of muscle. I would've gotten there within a year if I didn't get injured and lost all my gains. Is it hard? maybe but not to the extreme you're describing. You only need to workout 40 minutes a day. How about "force feeding" no you don't need to force feed unless you want to get fat. I eat about 3 high protein normal meals a day and have 2 shakes. It only took me 5 minute to prepare the shakes and the food is what I'm already eating anyway, I just eat more of it and I don't count calorie or eat every 3 hours, I just eat whenever I feel like. I just estimate things roughly.

You cannot compare yourself to other guys when it comes to bodybuilding unless you compete, but none of us here are competing. You can only aspire to be the best version of yourself. The effort vs the reward is astronomical but only if you don't compare to other people. There's always someone bigger and stronger than you.

Post: #93

The way I see it:

3kg of muscles in 5 months

means, if one is consistent enough:

15kg of muscles in 2 years.

Go to the butcher's and take a look at 15kg of meat. That's a HUGE amount. It will completely transform your life.

If you think that's not incredible progress, look into steroids.