Post: #51

Ali had a huge impact outside of the ring. He fought on behalf of his people.

There was an interview in Britain (forgot the show but famous episode) where in the audience there were black and white boxers from the Britain team. Someone from the team commented on how his comments maybe were divisive rather than unifiying. He shredded that guy because he was like "you say that and you get applause" but how much unifying - dating your white daughter? etc etc he really was pretty impressive for some of his thinking.

I was just jumping onto this thread to mention I heard he had played a big role planning his funeral. Must be tough/surreal to be planning your own death. But I guess when you have time for it - you can maybe wrap your head around it.

He stood up for his beliefs and paid the price (lost years during his prime) - I give him respect for being williing to pay the price for what he believed in when compared to the mouthy SJWs who never want to pay a price. But that is because their conviction and beliefs are paper thin.

Post: #52

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/17/sports...acher.html

Quote:One rainy night in 1954, Joe Elsby Martin, a Louisville, Ky., policeman who ran a local recreation center called the Columbia Gym, saw a skinny 12-year-old boy with tears in his eyes come into the gym seeking him out.

The boy was distraught because his new red Schwinn bicycle, a Christmas present from his father, had been stolen. He had been told that a policeman named Martin would fill out a police report for him.

''What's your name?'' Martin said.

''Cassius Clay,'' the boy said, adding angrily that he would whip the thief if he could find him.

Martin then asked the young Clay if he could fight, saying, ''You better learn to fight before you start fightin'.''

In this way did Martin, who died at his Louisville home on Saturday at the age of 80, launch the boxing career of Muhammad Ali, an Olympic gold medal champion, a three-time world heavyweight boxing champion and a controversial and often beloved international figure.

In his autobiography ''The Greatest: My Own Story,'' written with Richard Durham, Ali recalled his meeting with Martin and introduction to boxing.

''I ran downstairs, crying, but the sights and sounds and the smell of the boxing gym excited me so much that I almost forgot about the bike,'' Ali wrote. ''There were about 10 boxers in the gym, some hitting the speed bag, some in the ring, sparring, some jumping rope. I stood there, smelling the sweat and rubbing alcohol, and a feeling of awe came over me. One slim boy shadowboxing in the ring was throwing punches almost too fast for my eyes to follow.''

After the lad had written out the report and was about to go, Martin tapped him on the shoulder. ''By the way,'' he said, ''we got boxing every night, Monday through Friday, from 6 to 8. Here's an application in case you want to join the gym.''

The boy had never worn a pair of boxing gloves, but was excited about trying the sport.

''When I got to the gym,'' Ali wrote, ''I was so eager, I jumped into the ring with some older boxer and began throwing wild punches. In a minute my nose started bleeding. My mouth was hurt. My head was dizzy. Finally someone pulled me out of the ring.''

''Get someone to teach you,'' a slim welterweight told the young Clay.

And that someone was Martin. He had worked for years with amateurs and had been instrumental in integrating Louisville's amateur boxing, combining separate gyms for black and white fighters. While Martin was not a professional boxing trainer, he knew enough of the rudiments of the sport to get the young Clay started.

''He could show me how to place my feet and how to throw a right cross,'' the fighter later wrote. And while Clay threw wild punches, ''something'' was driving him. ''I kept coming back to the gym.''

Martin told him: ''I like what you're doing. I like the way you stick to it. I'm going to put you on television. You'll be on the next television fight.'' At that time, Louisville amateur fighters, some from Martin's gym, appeared on a weekly televised boxing card called ''Tomorrow's Champions.''

''Thrilled at the idea of being seen on TV all over Kentucky, I trained the whole week,'' Ali said. ''They matched me with a white fighter, Ronny O'Keefe, and I won my first fight by a split decision.

''All of a sudden I had a new life.''

Martin's tutoring helped the young Clay win six Kentucky Golden Gloves titles and two national Amateur Athletic Union titles leading up to the 1960 Olympics in Rome, where Martin was a coach and where the fighter won the heavyweight gold. After Ali turned professional with the backing of some businessmen, Martin continued to train amateurs and remained active with Golden Gloves, serving for a time as the Kentucky representative on the organization's national board.

In all, he held the Kentucky Golden Gloves franchise for almost 40 years. In 1977, he was inducted into the Amateur Boxing Hall of Fame.

A police officer for 34 years, Martin did some auctioneering after retiring from the force. In 1980, Ali appeared in a sparring exhibition to raise money for Martin's campaign for Jefferson County sheriff, but Martin lost in his bid to win the Democratic nomination, the second time he was defeated for that post.

Martin is survived by his wife, Christine; a son, Joe Jr., and a granddaughter.

Post: #53

There is a blog, called heavyweightblog that states that Ali wasnt that great a boxer and if he were fighting today he would get his ass kicked.

Post: #54

I think there are serious doubts about whether Ali was the greatest heavyweight fighter of all time, though there can be no doubt that he was the greatest in the larger sense of his sporting and social impact.

Personally I think Ali makes the top ten heavyweights of all time, but would put him well behind one or two others. He did very well against black guys, because he made them so angry with all his cruel and unjustified 'Uncle Tom' taunting. This is doubly true as many of the black guys he fought had had much harder lives than he had, and had experienced much more gratuitous unpleasantness than Ali had. Since almost all of the guys I'd put at the top of the heavyweight pile are black, there's a good chance Ali would have found a way to psyche them out and beat them. That said, there's still one or two who I think would make short work of him.

There's a clip going around at the moment of Tyson saying Ali would beat him, but this is an old, mellow Tyson talking about a hero in a vacuum. There's no doubt in my mind that a prime Tyson would have destroyed Ali. Tyson aged 21-23 was the perfect distillation of athletic brilliance, raw ferocity, and peerless technical skill. I don't believe there has ever been a more formidable fighter.

Post: #55

(06-06-2016 05:22 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  I think there are serious doubts about whether Ali was the greatest heavyweight fighter of all time, though there can be no doubt that he was the greatest in the larger sense of his sporting and social impact.

Personally I think Ali makes the top ten heavyweights of all time, but would put him well behind one or two others. He did very well against black guys, because he made them so angry with all his cruel and unjustified 'Uncle Tom' taunting. This is doubly true as many of the black guys he fought had had much harder lives than he had, and had experienced much more gratuitous unpleasantness than Ali had. Since almost all of the guys I'd put at the top of the heavyweight pile are black, there's a good chance Ali would have found a way to psyche them out and beat them. That said, there's still one or two who I think would make short work of him.

There's a clip going around at the moment of Tyson saying Ali would beat him, but this is an old, mellow Tyson talking about a hero in a vacuum. There's no doubt in my mind that a prime Tyson would have destroyed Ali. Tyson aged 21-23 was the perfect distillation of athletic brilliance, raw ferocity, and peerless technical skill. I don't believe there has ever been a more formidable fighter.

Tyson fought bums in his prime. Look at the fight in Zaire between Muhammed and George. Many favoured George to win that cos George had sledgehammers for fists and a hell of a chin. Let me repeat: George Foreman was an extremely hard punching man. People who have fought both Mike Tyson and George say that George hit the hardest impact. Tyson looked good in his fights because he was fighting hasbeens. Who did Tyson fight when he was 20-21 that was a contender? Larry Holmes? Over the hill. Trevor Berbick? Finished. For the belt, Michael Spinks? Michael was finished before the fight even began. Dude was petrified.

You think those guys in the 60s didn't have the ferocity or intensity of Tyson? Look at old Joe Frazier fights. That guy was as tough as nails. I saw him get knocked down five times by George Foreman and get up with the EXACT same intensity. He didn't give a fcuk. Competition in the 60s was fierce. Mike Tyson looked good when knocking out jokers but once you gave him a good shot and put him on his ass, his self doubt poured in. Remember, for all the ass whooping Tyson gave out, inside he was a self doubting little boy. Muhammed would have exposed that, brought the little boy out and gave him the spanking that his pappy should have.

Post: #56

(06-06-2016 05:32 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(06-06-2016 05:22 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  I think there are serious doubts about whether Ali was the greatest heavyweight fighter of all time, though there can be no doubt that he was the greatest in the larger sense of his sporting and social impact.

Personally I think Ali makes the top ten heavyweights of all time, but would put him well behind one or two others. He did very well against black guys, because he made them so angry with all his cruel and unjustified 'Uncle Tom' taunting. This is doubly true as many of the black guys he fought had had much harder lives than he had, and had experienced much more gratuitous unpleasantness than Ali had. Since almost all of the guys I'd put at the top of the heavyweight pile are black, there's a good chance Ali would have found a way to psyche them out and beat them. That said, there's still one or two who I think would make short work of him.

There's a clip going around at the moment of Tyson saying Ali would beat him, but this is an old, mellow Tyson talking about a hero in a vacuum. There's no doubt in my mind that a prime Tyson would have destroyed Ali. Tyson aged 21-23 was the perfect distillation of athletic brilliance, raw ferocity, and peerless technical skill. I don't believe there has ever been a more formidable fighter.

Tyson fought bums in his prime. Look at the fight in Zaire between Muhammed and George. Many favoured George to win that cos George had sledgehammers for fists and a hell of a chin. Let me repeat: George Foreman was an extremely hard punching man. People who have fought both Mike Tyson and George say that George hit the hardest impact. Tyson looked good in his fights because he was fighting hasbeens. Who did Tyson fight when he was 20-21 that was a contender? Larry Holmes? Over the hill. Trevor Berbick? Finished. For the belt, Michael Spinks? Michael was finished before the fight even began. Dude was petrified.

You think those guys in the 60s didn't have the ferocity or intensity of Tyson? Look at old Joe Frazier fights. That guy was as tough as nails. I saw him get knocked down five times by George Foreman and get up with the EXACT same intensity. He didn't give a fcuk. Competition in the 60s was fierce. Mike Tyson looked good when knocking out jokers but once you gave him a good shot and put him on his ass, his self doubt poured in. Remember, for all the ass whooping Tyson gave out, inside he was a self doubting little boy. Muhammed would have exposed that, brought the little boy out and gave him the spanking that his pappy should have.

Frasier was tough as nails, no doubt, and is personally one of my favourite fighters of all time - a guy I much prefer to Tyson. However, the Tyson-Frasier comparison isn't a bad one, except Tyson was a technically more proficient and athletically more gifted fighter - plus he wasn't blind in one eye (mad props to Frasier for all he did with that handicap his whole career). Frasier was far more of a badass than Tyson, but he didn't have his prodigious physical gifts and perfect technique.

Foreman may well have hit harder (though I suspect it was probably pretty marginal as both guys had extraordinary 1 punch power). The difference for me was that Tyson could stick 4 or 5 of his on you for every one Foreman could throw.

Personally I don't think the argument about 'X fought bums' holds much water. People say the same thing about Floyd, and whilst there is arguably some truth, the fact is that guys with the kind of extraordinary gifts of a Mayweather or a Tyson can't win in the critics eyes whatever happens. Tyson had no control over the other quality of the other heavyweights in the division. And until he was (in my opinion unjustly) stuck with the rape charge, he was the most extraordinary fighting specimen I have ever seen. Ali was fortunate to have had so much opportunity to really live out his full greatness against such worthy opponents. Tyson was not so fortunate, but I don't believe that diminishes his greatness as a fighter, which to me remains unparalleled, even though his transcendence and his legend is undoubtedly diminished by the lack of world class opposition.

Post: #57

Bro, Ali was fast and had stamina, footwork AND a great chin. Tyson had never fought someone like Ali whereas Ali had fought people like Tyson before. Ali would have tied Tyson up, jabbed and talked about his mum the entire match. The X never fought in so and so era is a very valid statement. Michael Jordan would look amazing beating up on high school kids on a one on one but until he played consummate professionals, the discussion can't hold water.

Post: #58

(06-06-2016 04:09 AM)Pride male Wrote:  There is a blog, called GrandTurismo that states that the Ferrari 250GTO wasnt that great of a car and if he were racing today it would get his ass kicked.

Seriously?

The man is a legend. He was the best and i'm sure the "new" boxers have all learned from Ali

Post: #59

I can't believe people are trying to put Tyson in the same category as Ali.

Post: #60

Here is the link.

http://www.heavyweightblog.com/

Quote:It would be completely and utterly clear for anybody, that Ali is merely a B level boxer, who has hardly ever beaten convincingly a top opponent and who has the greatest difficulties "against such tomato cans like Norton, Frazier or Spinks", whereas Foreman is clearly the top dog of the 1970s having beaten all bigger names.
It's only because Ali was lucky enough to be given a rematch against Frazier, Norton and Spinks to avenge his losses.

And it's only because Ali REFUSED to give Foreman a rematch so that Ali's aura of superiority could continue to shine.
Ali was simply lucky he didn't live in times of countless TV channels, governing bodies and boxing promoters like is the case nowadays.
And it's exactly the non-rematching of Wladimir Klitschko vs Ross Puritty and Wladimir Klitschko vs Corrie Sanders and of Vitali Klitschko vs Chris Byrd that feeds AliFants and Klitschko haters to this very day.
Ali's rematching is _THE_ major reason for Ali's resume being considered a top resume. Without his rematches he would have a completely different level of resume with a far worse Win-Fight-ratio and far less world titles won.

Post: #61

I thought he was the greatest of all time until I watched When We Were Kings a few months ago. I didn't know the Thrilla in Manilla, which basically decided Ali's legacy, was a fight Ali was going to lose.

I'm not a boxing aficionado, so I'm not saying Frazier was 'better' or that Rocky Marciano was worse, or Tyson was better or worse or anything like that, despite having watched a lot of youtube clips of these guys. I don't have the expertise.

But I'm glad I know the slight twists of fate that led to Ali being on the Sports Illustrated best athlete of the 20th century. Frazier was an animal.

I have a hate/respect relationship with Ali. I always knew he was a cocky bastard growing up, which I was always indifferent to. That documentary pretty much summed him up: a total asshole, a marketing genius, and an unbelievable manipulator.

And yep, I still listen to his quotes and clips for motivation.

That documentary is must watch.

Post: #62

(06-06-2016 04:09 AM)Pride male Wrote:  There is a blog, called heavyweightblog that states that Ali wasnt that great a boxer and if he were fighting today he would get his ass kicked.

(06-06-2016 05:22 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  I think there are serious doubts about whether Ali was the greatest heavyweight fighter of all time, though there can be no doubt that he was the greatest in the larger sense of his sporting and social impact.

Personally I think Ali makes the top ten heavyweights of all time, but would put him well behind one or two others. He did very well against black guys, because he made them so angry with all his cruel and unjustified 'Uncle Tom' taunting. This is doubly true as many of the black guys he fought had had much harder lives than he had, and had experienced much more gratuitous unpleasantness than Ali had. Since almost all of the guys I'd put at the top of the heavyweight pile are black, there's a good chance Ali would have found a way to psyche them out and beat them. That said, there's still one or two who I think would make short work of him.

There's a clip going around at the moment of Tyson saying Ali would beat him, but this is an old, mellow Tyson talking about a hero in a vacuum. There's no doubt in my mind that a prime Tyson would have destroyed Ali. Tyson aged 21-23 was the perfect distillation of athletic brilliance, raw ferocity, and peerless technical skill. I don't believe there has ever been a more formidable fighter.

(06-06-2016 07:37 AM)Moma Wrote:  Bro, Ali was fast and had stamina, footwork AND a great chin. Tyson had never fought someone like Ali whereas Ali had fought people like Tyson before. Ali would have tied Tyson up, jabbed and talked about his mum the entire match. The X never fought in so and so era is a very valid statement. Michael Jordan would look amazing beating up on high school kids on a one on one but until he played consummate professionals, the discussion can't hold water.

I would like to invite you guys to watch a few videos on professional level boxing film study, before cementing your views on Tyson or Ali. I myself never ever gave a Tyson vs Ali debate any real thought in the past, but I can see why guys might try to debate that. My first impressions is that Tyson was a genius level counter puncher and like the film study guy explains, very few people credit him for his defense capabilities. Ali was extremely well rounded as a fighter, aside from his speed, and had few weaknesses from a technical standpoint. In both their primes I am referring to. Both were counter punchers stylistically as well.

Anyway enjoy these film study videos on Tyson and Ali, they are really, really good.

Tyson




Ali








Once my post my upcoming martial arts datasheet (other RVF guys are reviewing it right now), maybe we can do some RVF film study in there or maybe we should start doing film study discussion in the main boxing thread. If we can find enough martial arts/boxing nerds, we could have a good time chopping up the mechanics. It's tough to find fellow film nerds. I spent years studying film for MMA. Like they say in the NFL, the Eye in the Sky doesn't lie....

EDIT: Also, probably not a good habit to call any of the opponents things like bums. Anyone that has ever trained boxing or similar can tell you just how hard it is. At the pro level, you either have it in you or you do not. Many men you will never beat but that doesn't mean you suck, it's just there are other pros better than you are. Many NFL players that suck are still world class athletes. Let's just keep these things in perspective.

Post: #63

Kai, we are getting caught up on words if one is getting touchy about the use of the word 'bums'. That means you can't call anyone a bum in anything that you cannot beat them on. The point is, Tyson didn't have the same level of competition as Ali. He fought no one even close yet people are saying he would knock him out based on nostalgia. I loved the way Tyson terrorised his opponents but he happened to come to fruition in an era where the competition had waned considerably. That is a fact.

In the 60s, there was persecution in the black community with civil rights coming to a peak and a lot of guys had a lot of anger and that was the only venue they could actually whup some ass without being hosed down and tossed in the clanger for umpteen years.

80s was the crack era and served to neutralise many brooding upsets in the underclass. This took a big slice out of the competition that Tyson had to face.

Post: #64

I think Tyson would annihilate Ali.

This video does a good job of explaining it with clips of both fighters

Post: #65

I am a bigger Tyson fan, but I think Ali is awesome. He was the master of the pre-fight mind game. That is a big part of fighting. Conor McGregor is good, but he needs years of practice before he can be like Ali at trash talking.

Also, Ali fought Foreman and, If I recall correctly, Foreman was trained by a stable of champions. hard to say Ali wasn't good since he beat a champion's champion.

Either way, I wish we could clone Ali and Tyson and let them fight. That would be sick.

Post: #66

(06-06-2016 07:33 PM)Moma Wrote:  Kai, we are getting caught up on words if one is getting touchy about the use of the word 'bums'. That means you can't call anyone a bum in anything that you cannot beat them on. The point is, Tyson didn't have the same level of competition as Ali. He fought no one even close yet people are saying he would knock him out based on nostalgia. I loved the way Tyson terrorised his opponents but he happened to come to fruition in an era where the competition had waned considerably. That is a fact.

In the 60s, there was persecution in the black community with civil rights coming to a peak and a lot of guys had a lot of anger and that was the only venue they could actually whup some ass without being hosed down and tossed in the clanger for umpteen years.

80s was the crack era and served to neutralise many brooding upsets in the underclass. This took a big slice out of the competition that Tyson had to face.

One of the major problems with trying to compare past generations of fighters to others is that nutrition, training methods, techniques, etc. may not have been present in older generation. Just look at Tyson's body for instance. Look at his legs and thighs more specifically. That is where he got all that insane power from. Who trained like that back in the 60's? No one. Where did Tyson get all his head level changing techniques from? Ali and maybe a couple others. Tyson himself said he learned alot from Ali's fights. Everyone has including Floyd, although he probably won't admit it. He was not the first person to innovate those parries and level changes. He did not innovate that Philly Shell either. Perfect it? Probably. This is why Wilt Chamberlain vs Michael Jordan conversations make little to no sense at all.

To make it fair you would have to drop Tyson in the 40's without all his higher tech training and technique acquisition for the fight to be fair and have them meet in the 60s. This is why so many guys think an 85-88 Mike Tyson would probably destroy him. Tyson's biggest enemy was his own self and thus his gift was short lived. We just cannot have everything in life. 80's Tyson was a monster freak of nature, more so than Ali was.

No normal man can have that much muscle tone and that much cardio to box with. Canelo, Floyd, Klitschko, nor GGG are anywhere near that freakish. We may never see a man like that again, especially since the NFL soaks up all future heavyweight boxing talents. Can you imagine if Terrell Owens was a boxer or most All Team Offensive Linemen? What about JJ Watt? That's why I said what I said about mugs. Some men are just so talented physically, you cannot do anything with them at all, no matter how long you train. You got Golden Gloves dudes and dudes that box for the Olympic team that cannot hang with today's top pro boxers. These people are still world class athletes, yet they suck or are mugs? The shocking way he won fights has to be a strong consideration. He went through even mid-level fighters as if they were mere children. After prison with different trainers, etc. he just wasn't the same guy. Same thing more or less happened with Ali actually.

Post: #67

(06-07-2016 02:46 AM)Fortis Wrote:  I am a bigger Tyson fan, but I think Ali is awesome. He was the master of the pre-fight mind game. That is a big part of fighting. Conor McGregor is good, but he needs years of practice before he can be like Ali at trash talking.

Also, Ali fought Foreman and, If I recall correctly, Foreman was trained by a stable of champions. hard to say Ali wasn't good since he beat a champion's champion.

Either way, I wish we could clone Ali and Tyson and let them fight. That would be sick.

Nah, will never happen. Ali was about as naturally funny as Kevin Hart is. Connor is about as funny as Sarah Silverman. You are either funny or you are not. Connor could read every Tuthmosis, Parlay44, Rocha, Dusty, or Porcheguy post in July and he wouldn't be any funnier in August.

While not the same sport, Dwayne Johnson (The Rock) might have been the funniest public trash talker in his prime, but we cannot know 100% because writers are involved in that field. We really don't know how much of that he came up with himself. He has been less funny after his WWF/WWE career and he seems to mostly do serious movies and shows.

Some guys that were funny trash talkers according to the few anecdotes fellow players tell after retirement, are not well known because they could not get into a camera and say anything they wanted to like Ali could (for obvious reasons). Kevin Garnett, Maurice Jones Drew, Steve Smith Sr., Michael Jordan, Lawrence Taylor, and especially the legendary Deacon Jones to list a few. All of these guys were supposedly good at talking so much trash they could anger their opponents.

Post: #68

A perfect movie clip for "Clay": https://youtu.be/Il9jJObx7FE

Post: #69

I love Ali and he will always be a hero of mine since my childhood, but this woman's truth is too powerful to ignore...





http://www.infowars.com/muhammad-ali-con...-africans/

Post: #70

Do we really need some Somali immigrant woman who wasn't even born when Ali was kicking ass to tell us what we should think about him?

Post: #71

Short interview with Jesse Ventura about Muhammad Ali:

Post: #72

(06-06-2016 08:54 PM)Atheistani Wrote:  I think Tyson would annihilate Ali.

This video does a good job of explaining it with clips of both fighters

Ridiculous video. Chuck Wepner?? Ali was near the end of his career at that point. He began his career in 1960 -- he fought Wepner in 1975! It would be like saying Chris Arreola could beat Tyson because Tyson was stopped by Danny Williams and Kevin McBride in his last two fights, while conveniently leaving out that Tyson was 107 years old at that point :/

The comment that " you could catch Ali with a left hook in your sleep" isn't even worth rebutting. Frazier knocked him down, once, in 42 rounds, with a left hook. And Joe Bugner caught him once when he was very young. That's it. His whole career. Sonny Liston, who had a cannon for a left, couldn't touch Ali with it. I guess he wasn't in his sleep.

I don't know who would have won between a prime Tyson and prime Ali - both were magnificent. But I do know this video is not very good.

Post: #73

Let's not forget some of his commercials: