Post: #1

We often hear about how "great" and "powerful" the American military is. But I'm just not seeing much evidence for that. We pick fights with nations that are dozens of times weaker than us. We fly over them with utter impunity and bomb when and where we feel like. Yet we still come up empty-handed. We stay there for years, if not a decade or longer, before deciding it's all futile and finally deciding to leave. Our country is morally and financially bankrupt afterwards.

Is the American military really as strong and powerful as it's depicted? Or am I missing something?

Post: #2

So you're saying a military machine handcuffed to the rule of law is testament to its power?

Dude, Genghis Khan slaughtered his way through China and half the known world with just ponies, swords and bows, the only thing holding back any army in the world from pulverising pesky terrorists and guerillas is international law.

I'm pretty certain a few laws went by the wayside when the US military went in raw on Fallujah way back during Iraq. Al'Quaeda was cutting heads off 24/7 in that shit hole and killed some people they shouldn't have through IEDs and kidnappings.

The whole place was pacified until recently when IS took over it.

The rule of law exists for very good reasons. Once total war breaks out its anyone's guess. If you want to know what a military can do, the history of Africa in the past 100 years should tell you.

Post: #3

Happy Memorial Day!

The current us military is the most powerful force in human history. You can tell me about the romans or moors or some crap. One b52 takes them all out.

Americas military problem is that too many people bitch about it, with out knowing anything at all about how it works. Maybe they don't have the balls to join, or they are gay (that's not even an excuse any more) or they just like whining. Lots are also jealous.

People make comments that should be directed at politicians at the military.

You should just enjoy your three day weekend and be happy the military is there.

Aloha!

Post: #4

Although it's true that genghis Kahn only had ponies bows and arrows keep in mind that the reason for his success was not lack of sympathy or law but unique application of a present technology (horse archers) relative to others (conventional slow heavily armored horsemen) and maybe even some new technology - can't remember if it was the Mongols that had the thumb ring or someone else.

I think what OP is getting at is where does our military really stand relative to other nations like China and Russia. For instance, is the carrier battle group truly extinct? Do China and Russia really have those bad ass hyper sonic crazy maneuverable missiles that would ice our CVBGs? Is our military really all it's cracked up to be? I think with over budget and under performing assets like the F22 and F35 this may indeed be the case which could put the US in a corner in a conventional war and increase the temptation to use nuclear weapons.

Post: #5

Yes, you're missing something.

The US military virtually never loses military engagements. We utterly dominate the battlespace, and that's while using only a small fraction of our strength. The US military has not waged total war since World War II, and with each war since we've used more restraint. Just because a handful of assholes keep fighting, doesn't mean we didn't cream the country in question. Britain failed to stamp out the IRA for decades and there were only a few hundred of them at any given time. Does that mean the IRA won?

However, when people talk about "winning" wars, they usually are talking about whether the war accomplished some specified political change. That's a very different story. First of all, the conditions for winning constantly change. And second, the general conditions for victory are usually impossible to achieve without a long term commitment, on the order of several decades of occupation and a great deal of social engineering. Since we inevitably lose interest after about a decade, as administrations change and the people get sick of the ongoing war, we go home. And then, despite winning every major military engagement and inflicting orders of magnitude more casualties on the enemy than we received, people say we lost.

Right now I'm positive the US military is a shit show. It's PC central and all the good troops are getting the fuck out. So if we had to go to war tomorrow, we would probably not do so hot. We're also running out of munitions, I believe.

But, if we did go to war (say, because someone attacked us) and took a lot of casualties, America would get fired up. People would be calling for the heads of the morons who ruined the military and things would turn around fast. 12-18 months later, the military would be back to kicking ass and taking names. I guarantee there would be crowds of veterans lining up to rejoin and go fight. We have a huge reserve of relatively young combat veterans right now who could be in kit and fighting in a matter of weeks if the nation really needed them.

The US military has only "lost" wars because the politicians in charge are gutless, visionless faggots who are unwilling to either simply smash the country and leave without trying to nation build, or smash the country and then commit to nation building properly. You can trace the politicians' wishy washiness straight back to Korea when we failed to use nukes. That failure set the tone for every war since.

Post: #6

A military is ultimately only as 'strong' as its commander-in-chief.

Post: #7

Considerng that the USA's army can fight on several fronts at once: land, air, sea and digitally, I would say pretty fucking powerful. Think about it. While our dudes close in on you, we lock down the sky an the coast and shell the shit out of anyone who tries anything. It's very hard to coordinate people in that manner, but the American army has mastered fighting on all fronts at once.

People often bring up china as though they're some great challenge, but think about this: when was the last time china was in a major conflict? The 70s?

The army has been in constant battle for 200 years. Our men are battle tested, not just a bunch of farm boys with red hats and uniforms. Our army is also an actual professional standing army.

If our army was allowed to do what it should ISIS would be flash fried in their caves.

Post: #8

delete

Post: #9

I agree that our military is very, very good at defeating an enemy in a conventional style war. But no one today is going to be stupid and/or suicidal enough to fight one of those against America.

It is not good at all when it comes to occupying territory, putting down insurgencies, and reshaping a society in an image more acceptable to us. And nearly every conflict we've entered since World War 2 has been more the latter than the former.

When it comes to unleashing brute destructive force, America has no equal. When it comes to actually accomplishing its political objectives, it's been an utter disgrace.

Post: #10

(05-27-2016 08:55 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Doesn't really matter how powerful it is. All this "greatest country in the world" talk is just insecurity, and Americans are some of the most insecure pussies in the world. It's like that guy who won't shut up about his dick size, you wanna be around that kind of person? Then people wonder why the rest of the world considers the US and Israel two biggest threats to world peace....

Tell us how you really feel.

Post: #11

(05-27-2016 08:56 PM)Chaos Preacher Wrote:  I agree that our military is very, very good at defeating an enemy in a conventional style war. But no one today is going to be stupid and/or suicidal enough to fight one of those against America.

It is not good at all when it comes to occupying territory, putting down insurgencies, and reshaping a society in an image more acceptable to us. And nearly every conflict we've entered since World War 2 has been more the latter than the former.

When it comes to unleashing brute destructive force, America has no equal. When it comes to actually accomplishing its political objectives, it's been an utter disgrace.

What do you think our military is for, exactly? It's not the fault of the military if politicians try to make it into a combination police force and social reengineering machine. That's like trying to tow a 20,000# trailer with a Corvette, it's a stupid misuse of resources.

As an example, I was an infantryman. My job description was: "Locate, close with, and destroy the enemy." That's what I was trained to do. What in that suggests I would make a good cop, or be well suited to win the hearts and minds of the locals? That's what MPs and Civil Affairs people are for, but there were a lot more combat troops playing at those jobs than people who were actually trained for them.

However, you're wrong about how good the military is at putting down insurgencies and occupying territory. The US military is great at it, when it is allowed to do the job. But when the politicians saddle the military with absurd rules of engagement and escalation of force procedures that make it impossible for the soldiers to legally suppress the enemy, how is that the military's fault?

As I already said, the political goals are impossible without decades of effort. You know what it would take to stabilize the middle east? Occupation for at least 30 years and a concentrated effort to change the culture. That means putting Americans in charge and indoctrinating a whole generation of kids in our way of life. Outlawing the things that would let their parents pass on their culture: for example, make speaking the local language illegal. English only, and no Islamic culture at all allowed. If we won't do that, nothing will change. And of course, we never will.

Also, things are not as bad as you paint them. Oh, the latest middle east adventure was pretty lame, which is pretty much entirely because Obama is a gigantic sopping pussy who threw away everything we accomplished through 2008. But what else have we actually lost? Korea was in many ways a success, as was Vietnam. Just because liberal historians claim the wars were ineffectual doesn't mean they actually were.

Post: #12

(05-27-2016 08:55 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Doesn't really matter how powerful it is. All this "greatest country in the world" talk is just insecurity, and Americans are some of the most insecure pussies in the world. It's like that guy who won't shut up about his dick size, you wanna be around that kind of person? Then people wonder why the rest of the world considers the US and Israel two biggest threats to world peace....

I find your post very distasteful. Especially since this thread was started in order to bitch about the US Military not to brag about it.

Post: #13

(05-27-2016 09:06 PM)Patriarch Wrote:  

(05-27-2016 08:55 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Doesn't really matter how powerful it is. All this "greatest country in the world" talk is just insecurity, and Americans are some of the most insecure pussies in the world. It's like that guy who won't shut up about his dick size, you wanna be around that kind of person? Then people wonder why the rest of the world considers the US and Israel two biggest threats to world peace....

Tell us how you really feel.

Strong enough to delete that bollocks after posting it.

Post: #14

I always find it funny how other countries care so much about us and get so angry over our attitude, and we don't give a shit about them while they go and use all our inventions, watch our movies, and listen to our music.

Post: #15

(05-27-2016 09:26 PM)weambulance Wrote:  However, you're wrong about how good the military is at putting down insurgencies and occupying territory. The US military is great at it, when it is allowed to do the job. But when the politicians saddle the military with absurd rules of engagement and escalation of force procedures that make it impossible for the soldiers to legally suppress the enemy, how is that the military's fault?

The Roe and escalation of force procedures are there for a reason though. Modern wars are fought on many fronts, the PR front being one of the more important. Especially with a nation like the U.S., who desperately wants to be viewed as the heroic, benevolent "good guy" of the world.

(05-27-2016 09:26 PM)weambulance Wrote:  As I already said, the political goals are impossible without decades of effort. You know what it would take to stabilize the middle east? Occupation for at least 30 years and a concentrated effort to change the culture. That means putting Americans in charge and indoctrinating a whole generation of kids in our way of life. Outlawing the things that would let their parents pass on their culture: for example, make speaking the local language illegal. English only, and no Islamic culture at all allowed. If we won't do that, nothing will change. And of course, we never will.

Yes, I agree with this. But no one actually wants to stay in those places in overwhelming force for generation after generation.

(05-27-2016 09:26 PM)weambulance Wrote:  Also, things are not as bad as you paint them. Oh, the latest middle east adventure was pretty lame, which is pretty much entirely because Obama is a gigantic sopping pussy who threw away everything we accomplished through 2008. But what else have we actually lost? Korea was in many ways a success, as was Vietnam. Just because liberal historians claim the wars were ineffectual doesn't mean they actually were.

From what I can see, nothing of lasting value has or will ever be accomplished in either Iraq or Afghanistan.
And in what ways was Vietnam a 'success?'

Post: #16

Chaos Preacher you obviously never had to deal with the ROE in CENTCOM.

Please, every non-military professional in this thread, keep sharing what you think you know about the subject. This stuff is almost as good as listening to fake veterans tell war stories in real life.

US military is the most capable in the world. Politics often inhibit its effectiveness.

Post: #17

(05-27-2016 08:30 PM)Fortis Wrote:  Considerng that the USA's army can fight on several fronts at once: land, air, sea and digitally, I would say pretty fucking powerful. Think about it. While our dudes close in on you, we lock down the sky an the coast and shell the shit out of anyone who tries anything. It's very hard to coordinate people in that manner, but the American army has mastered fighting on all fronts at once.

snip

Completely agree and of course you mean all the armed forces not just army.

Don't forget about the true high ground - space. We have amazing capability there as well, mostly in communications and surveillance, enabling the combined operations Fortis describes. Remember the space shuttle? The reason it had large wings was 1500 mile cross range on landing. A launch pad was constructed but never used at Vandenberg to launch it in a polar orbit, overfly the USSR, conduct a mission during that overflight, and land back at VAFB, despite the earth's rotation moving it 1500 miles eastward in the meantime. That's what our capability was almost 40 years ago and the Air Force has been building on that since (e.g. X-37B)

We have more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world combined times almost three in terms of displacement:
USA = 1,360,000 metric tons displacement total of state-of-the-art weaponry
rest of world = 505,000 metric tons displacement total including antique designs just barely afloat

Excellent point by kamoz on the Chinese anti-carrier missile - in short, there's a long way from designing a weapon to testing it and calling it operationally effective. I think the carrier battle group still has many years of usefulness and certainly the new Ford class will counter the threat. The DF-21 needs targeting info and without that it's worthless. It's a big ocean.

OP's question is about political result not military power, as weambulance stated.

Military conventional capability is not even close, US >> anyone and everyone else combined.

Post: #18

The US has the most proficient and technically capable military in human history. But like an all star team with a shitty coach/owner, you are only as strong as your weakest link. Let us discuss a few areas in no certain order of precedence.

Combined arms - This refers to a method of dominating the battle space by bringing to bear several different kinds of arms at once such as infantry, armor, cyber/EW, and air assets. Very few modern militaries have as much experience in this arena as we do.

Force projection - Simply put, the ability to put a can of whoop ass anywhere we need it within XX hours. This is what sets us apart from most other nations. We can send any number of self sufficient combat formations across the globe on short notice. Units such as: Brigade Combat Team, Marine Expeditionary Unit, Carrier Battle Group, etc. can deploy and use the combined arms above to dominate the battlefield both in real terms and virtual (cyber/EW).

Unconventional Warfare - While we drew on many other countries' experiences to reach the current make up of SOCOM (notably the western European countries SAS, GIGN, GSG9, etc.) our resources and sheer depth of field has put us on the top of the heap.

Logistics and maintenance - Another area which we excel, and an area that quite sets us apart from other large countries. We have the capacity, industry, and engineering to bring a ship into a shipyard and get her out again. See Russian shipyards lately? The British and French are no slouches in this area to be fair but they do not have the amount of capacity we do. The Chinese are closing in but do not have the institutional expertise to do it in wartime IMO. We can put a CVNBG anywhere in the world and re-supply it every 3-5 days so it can keep killing/destroying shit until we say not to.

[rant on] While we may be #1, there is rot within. The amount of SJWism in our military has been rising at an alarming rate. The fact that there is a large body of (mostly) conservative men who are armed and trained well with over 15 years of war is not lost on those who wish to subvert this countries' greatness. It has become a petrie dish of sorts for the latest cause du jour such as but not limited to: women in combat, uniform changes, various forms of "privilege", etc. The establishment is trying to dilute the idealogical pillars of our military and especially our officer corps. [rant off\]

Ive got 16 years active duty in case anybody cares to know my bona fides.

Post: #19

I'd like to ask what the American military has actually accomplished in the past few decades? Despite having far and away the most lavishly funded military in the world, it doesn't seem to actually accomplish anything besides bullying the crap out of small, much weaker nations and evaporating lots of money in huge explosions.

Post: #20

(05-28-2016 12:30 AM)Chaos Preacher Wrote:  I'd like to ask what the American military has actually accomplished in the past few decades? Despite having far and away the most lavishly funded military in the world, it doesn't seem to actually accomplish anything besides bullying the crap out of small, much weaker nations and evaporating lots of money in huge explosions.

It's a paradox. Having overwhelming capability means not having to use it since none are foolish enough to challenge directly. The accomplishment and goal is prevention of larger war. Also more tactical things like securing our national interests in the oil states.

Are you upset about some country in particular being bullied recently? Are you a citizen concerned about the high taxes you pay? What's the real beef here?

"Morally and financially bankrupt", I don't agree at all. What evidence supports this? The opinion of weak and ineffective bystanders? Look at the top world news items at BBC right now: Trump rally protests and ex-Argentine junta leader jailed in connection with Operation Condor. Who is more morally bankrupt here, our candidate and citizens' passionate display of first amendment free speech rights and the disruption thereof or a cabal of South American dictators?

Post: #21

None of your arguments so far have anything to do with what the title implies, asking if the military itself is great- Your arguments are about the merits and effectiveness of trying to occupy countries for the long term or trying to change ideology. Those are policy choices, not about military capability.

Of course we can't "win" in the middle east for example- we are fighting a people that have been attacking Americans since before we were a country, who are following commands from a man in the sky. The U.S. Navy was created primarily as a response to having our men enslaved and killed by muslims (the Barbary States) in the late 1700s. There will not be an end to fighting these people, because they will not stop as long as we exist. We can only hope to contain and minimize the threat. And our military is the best there ever has been in the history of the world at doing this.

"Nothing to show for it" is a specious argument- The fact that our streets are not running with blood despite this raging, never ending war of civilizations seems to me to be something. Of course, few care about or can see what has been prevented, but that is the most valuable return on effort an investment we can ask for. The reason you can sleep at night without worry is because the 82nd Airborne is making sure of it. I will relay your appreciation on your behalf.

Of course the policies and philosophies of how we go about using our excellent military should be examined, improved and changed. Financially things are a mess. But the mis-steps in policy and leadership have no relation the capabilities and undeniable greatness of the military itself.

Post: #22

Even with the fast-spreading rot and corruption within it, the US military is still the most incredible fighting force on this planet. There is no adversary that it couldn't overcome.

However, the US military doesn't actually serve the US - instead it serves only a small group of globalist overlords. That is why we see it used in a way that appears to be a spectacular failure. However, it's not a failure. It's a success, just the one that helps someone else other than USA as a nation.

Conclusion: US military is actually very good at what it does; the problem is that what it does is not what you think.

Post: #23

Rather than asking how "powerful" the military is, I should have instead worded my initial post differently. There's no question about America's military might and power. Perhaps a more appropriately worded OP would have been "Just how useful is the U.S. military?"

Post: #24

(05-28-2016 04:02 AM)Chaos Preacher Wrote:  Perhaps a more appropriately worded OP would have been "Just how useful is the U.S. military?"

Only as useful as the Commander in Chief in charge of it.

The men doing the actual work in the dirt can accomplish nearly any military feat, but if they are not sent on well planned missions with meaningful and useful objectives then it doesn't matter.

An excellent and capable tool used poorly by a fool is not a reflection on the usefulness of the tool.

Post: #25

(05-27-2016 09:06 PM)Patriarch Wrote:  

(05-27-2016 08:55 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Doesn't really matter how powerful it is. All this "greatest country in the world" talk is just insecurity, and Americans are some of the most insecure pussies in the world. It's like that guy who won't shut up about his dick size, you wanna be around that kind of person? Then people wonder why the rest of the world considers the US and Israel two biggest threats to world peace....

Tell us how you really feel.

Talks a big talk on the internet but I would love to see him step inside our beautiful country and say those words. Then we will find out who the pussy is.