Post: #1

For about a century or more, a systematic androgynization has been taking place in our societies. And one of the major consequences of this transformation is the emergence of friendship between men and women—something that had been quite alien throughout human history. It’s sickening to see so many men today who readily befriend females due to lack of masculine order, groveling and supplicating to feed the already bloated egos of Western women. It’s clear that many men continue to befriend females as a way of receiving whatever little validation they can as a substitute for their lack of love and sex.

If you are one of those men, here are six reasons to reconsider the friendship you have with your special gal.

1. You don’t have your motives straightened out

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Being “friends” with girls is a pathetic tactic losers use to lure a chick they have a crush on. The idea is that by being around her for a long enough time and being the “nice guy” who is there for her, she will eventually come to see what a great person he is and reward him with love. This is an extremely ineffective method of attracting a woman that almost always end up with a major heartbreak.

Speaking of which, you need to be clear about your intentions. The sad truth is that most men who befriend women are unaware of their own attraction towards their female friend, and even when they are aware of it, they mistakenly believe that their counterparts feel the same way about them (which they don’t).

So, ask yourself: are you trying to have sex with her or be her pal? The losers may believe that the first step towards forming a romantic relationship with a girl is to be friends with her, but it’s actually sex first. If your female “friend” isn’t about to have sex with you after having known you for a month or more (many men would give even less time), the chances are, she never will and she’s not interested in you.

But maybe I’m being too pessimistic. I’m sure there is still a small chance that your dream girl will eventually fall for you when she turns 34 after being penetrated with mouthful of penises, and is riddled with wrinkles and cellulite—plus sagging breasts to top it all. Maybe then she will be ready to fall in love with how good of a toady provider you are.

2. You’re practicing being friendzoned

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Even if you genuinely don’t have any romantic or sexual interest in your female friend, all you’re doing is practicing going in the friendzone for another girl you might be interested in. By being friends with multiple girls for a long enough time, the way you interact with females in general will gradually transform. You will start to act like one of the girls and become infected with supplicating and boyish behaviour that will ruin your masculine frame. It doesn’t always happen and you might be the exception, but it certainly is true for the majority of today’s hapless males who have no idea what they’re doing to themselves.

3. They’re unreliable

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Women have never failed to disappoint me with their unreliability. If you think lying, flaking, and broken promises are limited to dating, you are horribly mistaken. You have to understand that honor is a foreign concept to women (I’ve actually had two women on two different occasions express disgust when I used that word).

I can’t count how many times I’ve been lied to and stabbed in the back for placing my trust on a female who twisted her words and smiled at me to manipulate me. And like a sucker, I kept believing that not all women were like that and went on to trust the next one who would dupe me the same way. Rinse and repeat.

Simply put, women are worse than worthless as friends; they will actually harm you through their lies and betrayal.

4. You’re being a friend-slut

Would you respect a woman who spreads her legs open for any and every man she meets? No, of course not. You might take advantage of the sex she gives out, but you would never consider her a worthwhile companion for the simple fact that she is a slut. As obvious as it may seem, many female-befriending simps can’t seem to grasp the same concept when applied to themselves. If you readily befriend every women you meet and offer services to them without getting anything in return, you’re being a friend-slut.

And as it was with the example of the female slut who offers sex to everyone, women will simply take advantage of all the thankless services the loser friend-slut has to offer without giving anything in return. They might respond with their typical “Awww thanks! ” to keep you attached, but deep inside, they will have zero respect you. In fact, they’re crossing their fingers in hopes that you don’t have a crush on them.

5. You’re being used as an object

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It’s no secret that women view men as mere objects to be exploited for their own benefit. By being a friend to a woman, you’re simply making it easier for her to take advantage of you. And as a utility, you are to remain loyal and dependable to serve her fickle needs while she goes out at night to have sex with undependable and disloyal bad boys.

As a good boy, you must make sure she’s physically comfortable at all times, listen to all her petty problems by being her emotional tampon, and allow her to walk all over you like a servant would with his master. And if you fail to provide the value she seeks, she is more than willing to throw you out like a used toilet paper. Years of friendship don’t mean anything to females who simply see you as a tool.

6. You’re feminizing yourself

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Even if you manage to find a unicorn that you’re not sexually or romantically attracted to, is a reliable person, and doesn’t exploit you, why would you bother? What value can a woman possibly bring to you as a friend? Do you actually believe that friendship between men and women should be normalized?

Like a wine that gets mixed with water, the more you spend time mingling with females as their buddies, the more diluted your masculinity becomes. The feminization of men is a true phenomenon and I have no doubt in my mind that inter-sex mingling is both reinforcing and augmenting the problem. I’ve personally witnessed many pathetic men who’ve spent far too much time with girls and have adopted their feminine speech and behaviour. I probably would’ve mistaken them for homosexuals if I didn’t know them any better.

The Alternative

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Friendship with females is an aberration and must be shunned by masculine men of today who are cognizant of the realities of modern sex relationship. And as an alternative, I propose a basic system where you limit your interactions with a given woman to a single category without muddling the lines between them. The categories are:

1.Women who you are already in an intimate relationship with.

2. Women who you want to pursue a romantic or sexual relationship with.

3. Women who you must communicate with out of necessity, whether it be co-workers or the cashier at a grocery store.

4. Optional: Dependable and trustworthy women who are able to provide equal or greater value than what you offer her, or has a special value you can’t get from anyone else. A woman of this caliber is rare, and even if you find one, you must tread carefully. I got scalped by at least two women whom I thought deserved to be in this category only to have them talk shit behind my back and throw me under the bus later on. Right now, I only have couple of foreign women in this category. And even then, they’re closer to an acquaintance than a real friend. I personally will never trust another Western woman again.

I used to feel guilty about being so calculating about my relationships and the ROI I get from women, but then I realized that women do the exact same thing with all the men they interact with.

But above all, beyond the debate of whether you should be friends with women or not, the most important thing is to develop friendship with men instead. Yes, the majority of Western men are almost or just as bad as the female counterparts in many cases, but it is your job to find the right ones. Overall, men are more supportive and forgiving, men possess honor and loyalty, and they will hold you up to a standard of masculinity that you cannot deny.

There are many decent people out there for you to be friends with. Just don’t try to make females one of them for all the wrong reasons.

Read More: 5 Reasons I’m Not “Friends” With Girls

Posted on Mon, 09 May 2016 13:00:57 +0000 at http://www.returnofkings.com/85689/6-rea...with-girls
Comments: http://www.returnofkings.com/85689/6-rea...ls#respond

Post: #2

Male friends can be held to account for their misdeeds. Good luck holding a woman responsible for anything.

Post: #3

(05-09-2016 10:38 AM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  Male friends can be held to account for their misdeeds. Good luck holding a woman responsible for anything.

Funny story about why you should play the numbers game.

Wed Afternoon Date - Had a coffee date with a "female dental school friend" I haven't fucked yet. Keep in mind she has an out of town boyfriend. She reschedules for Thursday Afternoon. I'm ok with it.

Wed Night Date - Have some girls over...escalate with my target but it doesn't work

Wed Night Club Booty Call - Girl I met via game calls me out to meet her later on..so I meet her, we bang till Thurs early morning. I think about kicking her out until...

Thurs Afternoon Date (Originally Scheduled Wed Afternoon) - "Female dental school friend" cancels coffee date again as I'm in bed with gal from last night. Her excuse was "I'm getting a tattoo scheduled during out date. Sorry" with no counter offer. Not that I perceived this chick as an actual friend..but moreso a gal I wanted to bang.

Funny thing is she asked to meet some of my older female contacts that are great professional connections...if you cancel on me because of a tattoo with no counter offer...why the fuck would I introduce you to more connections that are more important?

(Proceeds to keep banging girl from last night till lunch)

Post: #4

I've had some bad experiencies with female friends. One female friend in particular deliberately gave me terrible advices about women. She didn't want me to fuck her, or fuck any other chick. When I realized this, I cut the friendship, and it was a great decision.

Post: #5

(05-11-2016 09:34 PM)mexgorilla Wrote:  I've had some bad experiencies with female friends. One female friend in particular deliberately gave me terrible advices about women. She didn't want me to fuck her, or fuck any other chick. When I realized this, I cut the friendship, and it was a great decision.

Every time you pro-actively maintain a "friendship" with a girl who prefers "hanging with the guys" over her fellow females....

1) Her options increase
2) Your options stagnate

Simple

Post: #6

Too much speaking in absolutes for my taste.

One of my acquaintances scored his current squeeze via a female friend. Women are social linchpins more than men. You just have to understand the tactic -- and know when not to hit on her, and play it as an investment into accessing her friends instead. If you're cool and not hitting on her, she'll vouch for you to the friend, which pushes you from "some guy" to "reputable guy". That means a huge difference for some chicks.

If anything I would try to be friends with more women.

Post: #7

^ If a girl is capable of reciprocating A) good contacts, B) attractive female friends, and C) the potential to turn from friend to fuck buddy (yeah there's some out there)....then sure why not.

As certain women age & become "overwhelmed" by the world around them, they get complacent resulting in habits such as acquiring only male orbiters as friends, wearing flats more often instead of heels, and avoiding their attractive female contacts due to personal insecurity. This is the type OP referred to and ones that seem to be coming around my guy friends back at home. Avoid at all costs

Post: #8

Associating with beautiful company allows for more access to beautiful company. I will never of my own volition hang out with a girl that's "just one of the guys", but inviting that wannabe D-list instagram model whom is doing that dumb bent knees crouching pose with her hot female friends on her social media to a bender at my bro's place fuck yea.

Just don't text them to hang out with you and if they text you. There better be an ass or two to jump on your lap, and you must, without exception, be allowed to crack crude sexual jokes at their expense.

Also see signature.

Post: #9

(05-11-2016 09:34 PM)mexgorilla Wrote:  I've had some bad experiencies with female friends. One female friend in particular deliberately gave me terrible advices about women. She didn't want me to fuck her, or fuck any other chick. When I realized this, I cut the friendship, and it was a great decision.

If i was an evopsyche/ r/k phaggot I'd say it's instinctual in women who find you beta to do that because it will remove you from the gene pool. Meta cuck'd!

Post: #10

A story:

I tried to be friends with a girl, within the past four years, only because I had had a sentimental memory of her as a part of a larger group of friends that I had once had in one of the better times of my life.

It went as predicted.

I had before kicked most vestiges of bad game, but I hadn't before thought of de-emphasizing the sentimental. It was a blind spot for me.

We initially got in touch under this premise of rekindling something that existed by close association, but never to any meaningful degree. She really was just a memory marker for me; a connection to a more innocent time.

We reminisced and I was myself; using game type conversation that I use with all women reflexively - with one fatal flaw: I wasn't really trying to fuck her. I was actually trying to be friends, working under the illusion of the value of this shared sentimentalism. I also wasn't attracted to her physically (nor in any other way really), though she wasn't repulsive. Thus, my verbal game was mostly cleansed of any sexual innuendo and conversation.

The thing about women is that everything, when socializing with men, is sexual at its core. They only move to meet with you because you are being considered for sex; mostly similar to the way men consider socializing with women. Would you meet up with that fugly girl to be "friends"? Nope (unless you hit a streak of sentimentalism like me; though she wasn't fugly). And neither will women socialize with you unless you are a sexual prospect OR a potential ego prop (usually men who provide some social value but aren't sexual threats). When you fail to deliver the psychological goods first, or otherwise become too good of a "friend", dysfunctional relationships occur.

So, the first night that we met up my incidental game was good enough to eventually get me invited, tired, drunk and far from home at 5 a.m., into her bed. Whereas without the "friendship" premise and thoughts of preserving the sentimental I would have gone full bore or went home, I instead felt a mixture of confusion and apathy (I'm also largely non-functional sexually after 3 a.m.).

Even after a another off-hand invitation for sex that went over my head due to my aforementioned state, I failed to act strong enough in bed and fell asleep. The mistake was entering the bedroom in the first place.

That was it. If a man gets invited into bed, and doesn't make significant progress on that night, the relationship will from then on out be skewed and thus you may as well go cold on her in an attempt to revive it at a later date.

At the time, I thought nothing of it until one day later when I realized what I did. I knew I'd have to fuck her to save the "friendship". See the position that a friendship agenda puts men in?

So I tried to save it to no avail. I was repeatedly invited into her bed and rejected (I later uncovered a pattern that she would often invite male friends into her bed to sleep, and she also had other interaction patterns that told me that she relies on a lot of men giving her the opportunity to reject them in leading situations to prop up her ego).

The more that I tried to fuck her after, the more the relationship deteriorated. I agreed to go to bed to try and fuck (as I kept getting invited to bed), and each time it led to a worse position.

I at first, in my sentimental naivete, thought she was being hard to get. When I eventually figured out what was going on I put an immediate stop to crawling into be with her. I told her that, as an adult, I didn't share a bed with women who I don't fuck. The last night I saw her we underestimated the alcohol content of the beer and both got wasted. In her drunken haze, she told me "I control this relationship". Yup, that sounds about right in terms of the impression that I unwittingly gave her. She didn't actually control it beyond access to her pussy, but my moves had given her that impression.

I had no core desire to be with her, and never did. It was all to gain back that even ground between a man and a woman, in a naive attempt to preserve a legitimate friendship, after I lackadaisically and naively put myself in a beta position; because I ignored the sexual nature of the relationship.

Also, in reality, I mostly enjoyed hanging out with the boyfriend of one of her friends, who I would drink whiskey with, which is why I found myself over there on some weekend nights and hanging out with her.

After that last night, I never contacted nor saw her again. Telling me that you "control the relationship" is a great way to end a relationship with me. But she was only speaking the truth about the impression that I gave her; and she was never aware of the meta-game. If I were to speak to her now, I'd matter-of-factly, and without any emotion, tell her that she'd need to blow me if she wanted to be "friends" in order to have an even keeled relationship. Otherwise, no thanks.

This experience of attempting a friendship with a woman was like traveling backward in time 20 years, game-wise, and being an old version of myself again. It was surreal.

The best favor that you can do for your so-called female friendships is to treat them like women that you are considering for sex, and flirt with them accordingly, but who you nevertheless keep in a friend zone (without inviting them to bed or other silly directly sexual things). It keeps them happy and normal acting. It keeps your power with you and allows you to dictate the relationship. You are essentially distorting the unavoidably sexual into a balance and illusion of friendship; but your mastery of male / female dynamics will be what controls the balance and makes the improbable seem to happen. None of this will be possible within any normative definition of and approach to friendship.

Post: #11

^







Couldn't have put that end bit better myself. The only way to even maintain "female friends" of convenience is to flirt non-stop. It's been great for my sense of wit, but that's all it is. More of a headache otherwise.

Post: #12

(05-13-2016 11:32 AM)hydrogonian Wrote:  The best favor that you can do for your so-called female friendships is to treat them like women that you are considering for sex, and flirt with them accordingly, but who you nevertheless keep in a friend zone (without inviting them to bed or other silly directly sexual things). It keeps them happy and normal acting. It keeps your power with you and allows you to dictate the relationship. You are essentially distorting the unavoidably sexual into a balance and illusion of friendship; but your mastery of male / female dynamics will be what controls the balance and makes the improbable seem to happen. None of this will be possible within any normative definition of and approach to friendship.

Quote:At the time, I thought nothing of it until one day later when I realized what I did. I knew I'd have to fuck her to save the "friendship". See the position that a friendship agenda puts men in?

This isn't a personal attack, Hydro. I just need to be blunt here. Two things:

1) Always be very clear in your sexual intentions towards a woman
2) Do not let your dick do your thinking for you

For the first point, whilst women will always be wondering about my romantic intentions towards them - game 101 stuff - they will never, ever be unclear about my sexual intentions towards them.

Whilst flirting is a big part of charming women on a day to day basis, when it comes to serious 1 on 1 interaction, if you don't want to get into trouble, never flirt with what you don't intend to fuck.

Realistically, everyone knows within a few seconds of seeing someone if they'd fuck them or not. Watch how girls size you up on the street, and how quickly you cease to exist in a matter of milliseconds if you're not their type. I size women up just as quickly, and it's only post-wall that women start recognising the blank look in men's eyes when they look their way for what is is - sexual irrelevance. Sexual attraction is not about 'who they are inside', and 'if they're a good person' or not. Girls will decide if they'd potentially fuck you or not that quickly, and that's the brutal reality.

Betas and Male Feminists never understand this basic fact. It's too harsh a reality for them to accept. So they'll creep along, using a cover of friendship to attempt to girlfriend a woman up when she realises what a 'great guy' we he is.

Don't be that guy.

Quote:We initially got in touch under this premise of rekindling something that existed by close association, but never to any meaningful degree. She really was just a memory marker for me; a connection to a more innocent time.

Now here's the danger zone. You knew you weren't interested in her sexually, so in the initial catch up, you needed to clearly-sell your intentions towards her. Women are all conceited enough to think that every man they meet would readily fuck them if she offered - even obese ones suffer this delusion. Friendzone fast, friendzone hard. You don't have to be cruel: "You always felt like a kid sister to me," is a gentle statement of what you see as the boundaries of the relationship. (If friendship is looking likely with a girl, I often use "You're so much like my sister. I'll have to introduce you two sometime." Most women know exactly where that places them).

Otherwise, if they want to fuck you, they're going to keep testing the limits, which is what you saw happen.

Quote:So, the first night that we met up my incidental game was good enough to eventually get me invited, tired, drunk and far from home at 5 a.m., into her bed. Whereas without the "friendship" premise and thoughts of preserving the sentimental I would have gone full bore or went home, I instead felt a mixture of confusion and apathy (I'm also largely non-functional sexually after 3 a.m.).

Never share a bed with any girl you wouldn't be horrified to wake up and discover sucking your dick at 3 a.m. I learnt that lesson in my teenage years.

Also, see my second point. What this sounds to me is ego-flattering post-experience rationalisation. Basically, that your dick was interested, but your mind wasn't, and you're trying to rationalise away that your dick has lower standards than your mind.

The greatest power a man can have over women is to have firm control over his libido. Once you're able to refuse sex and walk away from it rather than compromise your principles, women lose the greatest weapon they have against you.

Be warned: this always unleashes narcissistic viciousness, but hold fast. "When you accept I'm right, then maybe we'll fuck."

If more younger men could do this, Fourth Wave Feminism would be dead in a year.

Quote:At the time, I thought nothing of it until one day later when I realized what I did. I knew I'd have to fuck her to save the "friendship". See the position that a friendship agenda puts men in?

No.
No.
No.

This is male hamstering. Be aware of this kind of thinking. You're a man. If you have a choice of free action, you don't have to do anything don't want to do.

To some unconscious degree, you wanted to bang this chick you were neither fully hot or cold on, and your rationalising it heroically as 'saving the friendship'.

This kind of 'denial of sexual desire' is why women have so much trouble navigating the sexual marketplace. Particularly if the experience is less than they desired, they'll start reaching for reasons why they didn't really want to do it rather than simply making a poor choice and owning the responsibility for it.

This is why we're in such a rape culture climate: women are that narcissistic about protecting their fragile, feminine egos that they'd rather reframe a sexual experience they entered into as one that was against their will, rather than admit they chose the dud sexual partner their lower SMV would offer up.

"I wasn't that into her, but I was horny, and she was there," might be an uncomfortable truth about yourself to accept - and you might have moved past that kind of thing as your confidence and skill has increased anyway - but it's better to not kid yourself because then it shows you ways to improve and more forward. Most women are cursed with an inability for honest self-reflection, which is why their mental age stagnates, rather than advances, unless they get slapped down by a harsh reality in life.

Remember, you always have the power to say no. Quintus Curtius has a podcast saying, if you don't want people using you, cease to hang out a sign of invitation.

So, if they try and put you in an emotional tampon position, as Quintus said don't hang out a welcome sign.

A while back, a new friend rang me in hysterical tears. Her cat, Pussgo, had been run over.

Look, I like animals, and I'm not a Bastard. If she was my girlfriend, I'd wrap her in my arms and let her sob her heart out, letting her feel safe and protected from the big bad world until she felt a bit better. But this woman isn't my girlfriend, and I'm not here to regularly-entertain the emotional fragilities of a middle-aged woman. That's what her female friends are for.

"Huh." I grunted. "Pussgo splat."

"Oh my god, I can't believe you said that." She hung up and didn't talk to me for a few weeks. She got over it. Why? I was being a traditional stoic man, unconcerned with female hysteria.

Realistically, this is nothing Feminists aren't currently-advocating for about being expected to do unwanted emotional labour.

Another girl was testing the boundaries a while ago, suddenly bringing up a guy who apparently interested in her, but being unsure about going on the date with him etc. This is how they try to measure our interest in them: are we showing any signs of jealousy or concern if she tries to spin an emotional story?

Did I entertain this crap? No. Our friendship won't function if i'm expected to provide trivial emotional support. I'm happy to physically support her in traditional masculine ways: say she needs a new washer on her tap, or some tree branches run out to the tip. Cool, I'd do that for a male friend. But neurosis and emotional whining? No.

So I said, non-sarcastically, "You'll be fine. You're a great girl. If you just be yourself, I'm sure he'll really like you."

This is Speaking Girl. She knew exactly what that meant. She dropped the subject and hasn't tested the boundaries again. Talking about emotions are what she can do with her female friends. She sees me as masculine, and, well, not really skilled in that area.

Female friendships really aren't that hard to navigate, and have enjoyable benefits within the realistic limitations - because I don't expect them to have the depth and loyalty of male friendships, I'm not disappointed when they don't. As mentioned earlier in the thread by others, what's a greater sign of masculine power than having other women working on my behalf to get me laid? "Oh... i know this amazing guy."

Post: #13

^Gonna have to give a Post of the Year for that one. A great breakdown, criticism, and addition to another great post.

Post: #14

A huge problem with getting women in check as AB alludes to is the observation I have made even among non-white knights.

That is when around male friends especially ones in relationships where their sex life isn't great and they are out they will egg you to hit on girls under any circumstance. No matter if they are cunts, or obnoxious, or disrespectful. They simply don't want to hear that you would pass on a girl out of a personal principle. Or even something as blatant as a girl just has a terrible energy and you don't want to deal with that or break that horse.

This is a subtle white knighting that says girls can act however they want when you go after the pussy and you need to do it at all costs. Shameful and is why they are in their low quality long term sexual relationships to begin with. Horrifying they can't put it all together and these are educated intelligent men.

In was in the LES in NYC recently. My good friend I hadn't seen in awhile and I were out hitting on girls. He had even lived in Brazil for sometime and experienced the women there. This is now weeks later and he is still texting on how he could improved on what he said when we were talking to these two upper class obnoxious cunts at one bar. I could wing for about 5 minutes before I had to leave the set I just couldn't stand the women. He was drinking enough and desperate enough he stayed in for an hour. Of course they promptly left near close without even a hug good bye to him as their evening entertainment.

I just wanted to text back: "they were obnoxious cunts! get it in your head!". He had number closed a very cute French girl early that day on the subway.

If guys would just act colder to girls that act cold towards them all this madness would end immediately.

Post: #15

(05-16-2016 06:00 PM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  [quote='hydrogonian' pid='1300672' dateline='1463157133']
The best favor that you can do for your so-called female friendships is to treat them like women that you are considering for sex, and flirt with them accordingly, but who you nevertheless keep in a friend zone (without inviting them to bed or other silly directly sexual things). It keeps them happy and normal acting. It keeps your power with you and allows you to dictate the relationship. You are essentially distorting the unavoidably sexual into a balance and illusion of friendship; but your mastery of male / female dynamics will be what controls the balance and makes the improbable seem to happen. None of this will be possible within any normative definition of and approach to friendship.

Quote:At the time, I thought nothing of it until one day later when I realized what I did. I knew I'd have to fuck her to save the "friendship". See the position that a friendship agenda puts men in?

Quote:This isn't a personal attack, Hydro. I just need to be blunt here. Two things:

1) Always be very clear in your sexual intentions towards a woman

If you ever read my other game posts, you will read this as the centerpiece to my game. I also frequently pm men, who ask, with recommendations toward developing this mindset as their core game. I'm not only familiar with your sentiment, but I've been integrating it for about a decade now.

I was direct with her when I realized that we had to get sexual, when the given the opportunity. Read my story again. When I was trying to fuck, she knew that is what I wanted.

What she did not know is that I was trying to fuck to get the friendship back on keel. I should have probably told her that, but that would have been new territory and I'm not sure it would have gone over. Being direct works on the premise of tapping into a woman's sexual desire of an alpha man who isn't hiding behind lies and manipulation. It taps into instinct. Being direct about sex for a reason of logical social dynamics is not sexual. It's not emotional. Ironically, it wreaks of calculation that most women, although they live by what it addresses, don't and won't get nor want to talk about. They don't want to talk directly about power dynamics in relationships, and if they do they will be defensive. They just want the power dynamics to turn them on. By the end, I was ready to do that but the situation was too far gone.

Also, keep in mind the article and the point of the story. There were never any sexual end-intentions, except as a method to another goal and later on after she misread my apathy for sexual incompetence. There were only friendship intentions that, again, are the point of the story in terms of how they distort the relationship and force you into a now-hobbled sexual game anyway.

I should also note that we never, ever had any alone time except for the first night when we met at a bar and when we fell into bed each night thereafter; usually between 4-5 a.m. every night. It was always me, her, her best-friend and her friend's boyfriend as she was renting a room from the latter two and they were cool people. I was never trying to date her and so I wasn't going to ask her out on such. It was group conversation and then to bed. My direct game skills, that usually take conversations sexual, would have been socially out of place in the common environment that we found ourselves in. If we had gotten alone, I would have directly gamed her into her panties. I never had the chance. Though, my other game (social competency) was still there in general. Hence why I kept getting invited to bed but had a hard road once there. Also, I admit to hanging onto the sentiment/friendship vision for too long. I could have done better damage control if I had seen the relationship clearer, earlier. But that clarity is the entire point and lesson of the story.

I wasn't trying to fuck her on the first night, nor did I have any sexual intentions due to the ill-conceived "friendship" dynamic that is the point of the article.

Keep in mind that my story isn't about "game" nor fucking the girl as an end goal in itself.

It's about having to apply game principles in a natural dynamic that I distorted (for "friendship") in order to have an even keeled friendship with a woman, making the concept ridiculous and even destructive to the man-woman platonic relationship. That's the point of the post.

It's about me putting myself in a bad position, and trying to crawl out, because of friendship delusions. A position that I rarely-to-never find myself in otherwise.

As I stated, attempting to be "friends" felt like it set my game back 20 years. Which is the point of me writing the story out. It isn't me asking "what went wrong, guys?" I wrote the story to tell what went wrong, and to warn against it. That I didn't launch into a direct game clinic is because of the unique nuance of the situation, given my mistake, which is a lesson enough in itself. Ie: don't make my mistake in miscalculating the nature of your relationship with all women.

The story was meant to be an instructive lesson for guys who attempt friendship with females, using the time that I was hobbled by sentiment and my learning process from it. It isn't meant to be a story about how to game women successfully. It's meant to warn guys off of having any delusion about the nature of the man-woman relationship in an attempt to be friends.

Quote:For the first point, whilst women will always be wondering about my romantic intentions towards them - game 101 stuff - they will never, ever be unclear about my sexual intentions towards them.

See above. This is the root of my game.

Quote:Whilst flirting is a big part of charming women on a day to day basis, when it comes to serious 1 on 1 interaction, if you don't want to get into trouble, never flirt with what you don't intend to fuck.

Here's what I know from working with all women in an environment that requires non-sexual relationships with them: never flirting makes you creepy, unsocial, and resented because most women are insecure and are horridly instinctual socially.

Flirting too much is risky for other reasons.

Being competently social is enough for most but there are always a few who will resent you for not giving them more attention or from getting too much attention from other women.

In a non-sexual relationship with women, there is always a balance. That's also a primary lesson of my story.

I disagree with not flirting as a way to approach life. Flirting competently, and regularly with most women, will give you a wide social circle and make you well loved. My grandfather, who just died at 94 years old, was the most competent flirter that I've ever met. No one here would best him even in his old age.

In his last weeks, he had the nurses doing dances as they came in the room and then he would hilariously neg them on it. Women loved him to death, and his wife loved him for it, and we was never unfaithful (you never know except for my judge of his innocent and god-fearing character - which tells me that he was faithful) in seventy years of marriage. The only thing the last nurse, a young and pretty 9, that I thanked said to me was "He was the man".

Quote:Realistically, everyone knows within a few seconds of seeing someone if they'd fuck them or not. Watch how girls size you up on the street, and how quickly you cease to exist in a matter of milliseconds if you're not their type.

Right, but this story wasn't about that. It was about what comes after that. My misjudgement was, in essence, over why she would meet with me for drinks in the first place. Women know that the relationship is sexual. I disregarded that for sentiment. That's the moral of the story.

Quote:Betas and Male Feminists never understand this basic fact. It's too harsh a reality for them to accept. So they'll creep along, using a cover of friendship to attempt to girlfriend a woman up when she realises what a 'great guy' we he is.

Don't be that guy.

Really?

Read my story again. Don't read what you want into it. Read what it says. Are you insinuating that I was hoping that she would realize what a "great guy" I was? Where in my story did I give that impression? Where did I give the impression that I was using friendship to get sexual?

I'm actually pretty much giving a version of facts that inverts that dynamic: after denying the sexual, I was reluctantly forced to use it to attempt to have a normal friendship. She wasn't interpreting it that way, though. She was interpreting it as you see it. However, my story is more nuanced then that and I think that is abundantly clear.

My story isn't about the perils of being indirect. My story is about the perils of assuming that a man's legitimate and fruitful social relationship with women peers can be functionally asexual. Thus, my story is congruent with the ROK article.

Quote:We initially got in touch under this premise of rekindling something that existed by close association, but never to any meaningful degree. She really was just a memory marker for me; a connection to a more innocent time.

Quote:Now here's the danger zone. You knew you weren't interested in her sexually, so in the initial catch up, you needed to clearly-sell your intentions towards her.

Well, probably agreed. But I generally only work that way toward the sexual. I don't, in general, feel that I need to establish boundaries with friends. However, you might have a point though I would hold it to be a non-intuitive one.

I'm not even sure that doing that would work to eliminate the sexual dynamic. If what I state is true, then the dynamic is fundamental and cannot be changed. Thus, telling her that you just want to be friends would either likely cause her to not meet with you (because no sex) or to become more sexually interested in you. The latter situation would have you balancing the dynamic constantly anyway, and thus in the same behavioral position on the "friendship".

Quote:Women are all conceited enough to think that every man they meet would readily fuck them if she offered - even obese ones suffer this delusion. Friendzone fast, friendzone hard. You don't have to be cruel: "You always felt like a kid sister to me," is a gentle statement of what you see as the boundaries of the relationship. (If friendship is looking likely with a girl, I often use "You're so much like my sister. I'll have to introduce you two sometime." Most women know exactly where that places them).

Yeah, but notice that this is also a common game tactic. I'm not so sure that this does anything but ramp up the sexual dynamic, though it would better keep you in charge.

But keep in mind that we fell into bed together on the first night. My game wasn't in question. I didn't have a problem with the dynamic until after she offered me sex and I failed to act.

Quote:So, the first night that we met up my incidental game was good enough to eventually get me invited, tired, drunk and far from home at 5 a.m., into her bed. Whereas without the "friendship" premise and thoughts of preserving the sentimental I would have gone full bore or went home, I instead felt a mixture of confusion and apathy (I'm also largely non-functional sexually after 3 a.m.).

Quote:Never share a bed with any girl you wouldn't be horrified to wake up and discover sucking your dick at 3 a.m. I learnt that lesson in my teenage years.

Agreed. But, respectfully, you telling me what never to do in this circumstance is a little off-putting after I admitted the mistake directly after I wrote that part of the story. I know it was not a good move. I stated that.

I'm not really interested in a game breakdown or game help here. I gave a full narrative from start to finish to illustrate a mistake in perception as a lesson. I'm aware of my mistakes, and we could probably continue to dissect the situation ad infinitum for further game mistakes. But that isn't why I wrote the story. I'm good on the game theory, and this experience worked to eliminate a blind spot for me. I write the story to illustrate that blind spot and to warn guys to avoid it. If you disagree with my core thesis, then let's talk about it. But please don't mistake my generous candor, given to help, as a plea for a game breakdown when small game mistakes weren't the point of my post. Even still, I already addressed this one.

Quote:Also, see my second point. What this sounds to me is ego-flattering post-experience rationalisation. Basically, that your dick was interested, but your mind wasn't, and you're trying to rationalise away that your dick has lower standards than your mind.

Respectfully, I don't know what that means.

Note that my story is abundantly revealing in an attempt to add value through radical honesty on this forum. I don't need to make myself this vulnerable. I do it so that other guys can learn.

In that spirit, what I state is exactly true as I perceived it in the moment. I wouldn't go to all of this trouble in being honest only to insert ego preserving rationalizations. There is no post-situation editing of my feelings or intentions as I acted on them. Though, I'm also not stating that my feelings were unmuddied. They were muddied in no small part due to alcohol, but still strongly in favor of a platonic relationship. If anyone states that they have monk like control over the sexual feelings while in-bed with a warm female at 5 a.m. and drunk then I call b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t. The takeaway, though, is that I did not act on any sexual stirrings. Which is ironically what caused issues down the road. I could have fucked her that night and then stopped fucking her (theoretically) and had a better relationship then after doing what I did.

Quote:The greatest power a man can have over women is to have firm control over his libido. Once you're able to refuse sex and walk away from it rather than compromise your principles, women lose the greatest weapon they have against you.

Again, the monk thing. Feelings are rarely that on and off, there or not there. If they were, I wouldn't have met with her. The point of the story, about the relationship always being sexual, works in the direction of the man too if often less so. But it is still there. I did not see her as asexual. Not being an animal, I made a logical decision to treat her as a friend in spite of human feeling that were not completely black and white (but also not compelling at first for anything but friendship). Refusing sex in spite of having testosterone is control of the libido.

I did refuse sex, but the situation is more nuanced then that. The story is not about me losing power to a sexual conquest. The story is about friendship being distorted and subject to sexual dynamics. Hence why it was posted under this ROK article.

Quote:Be warned: this always unleashes narcissistic viciousness, but hold fast. "When you accept I'm right, then maybe we'll fuck."

If more younger men could do this, Fourth Wave Feminism would be dead in a year.

I'm unsure of your broader conversational context for this line.

Quote:[quote]At the time, I thought nothing of it until one day later when I realized what I did. I knew I'd have to fuck her to save the "friendship". See the position that a friendship agenda puts men in?

Quote:No.
No.
No.

This is male hamstering. Be aware of this kind of thinking. You're a man. If you have a choice of free action, you don't have to do anything don't want to do.

To some unconscious degree, you wanted to bang this chick you were neither fully hot or cold on, and your rationalising it heroically as 'saving the friendship'.

Well, you say that and I will half agree.

The part that disagrees: What you "want" (what you imagine) has nothing to do with the reality of a relationship that another person is a part of. You have to behave in a manner that forms the relationship to how you want it. The mistake of the first night made the relationship one way. I was trying to amend it.

The part that agrees: After I resolved to having to get a BJ, have sex, whatever, I can't deny looking forward to it. After all, I'm a man and not a robot. I wouldn't fuck at all if I didn't like fucking. Your models are a little too model like and not really representative of how men and women feel in the real world. Though, I appreciate your overall game philosophy.

Quote:This kind of 'denial of sexual desire' is why women have so much trouble navigating the sexual marketplace. Particularly if the experience is less than they desired, they'll start reaching for reasons why they didn't really want to do it rather than simply making a poor choice and owning the responsibility for it.

Unless you are wholly interpreting my trying-to-be-helpful parable in a completely different manner in the way in which it was stated and intended, I don't know how this applies to me. Though, I'm having trouble interpreting it at all.

Quote:"I wasn't that into her, but I was horny, and she was there," might be an uncomfortable truth about yourself to accept -

The opposite of what occurred on the first night.

Quote:and you might have moved past that kind of thing as your confidence and skill has increased anyway - but it's better to not kid yourself because then it shows you ways to improve and more forward

I'm unsure as to your point on this. Again, it seems like you are using a model that holds sexual feelings to either be present or not. In the end, it isn't your "horniness" but the decision that you make in regard to it. Though, again, I'm unsure as to how this applies to my story.

Quote:Remember, you always have the power to say no. Quintus Curtius has a podcast saying, if you don't want people using you, cease to hang out a sign of invitation.

How does this apply to my story and more importantly my point in telling it?

Quote:So, if they try and put you in an emotional tampon position, as Quintus said don't hang out a welcome sign.

Okay, but the point was about the danger of sentiment in a male-female "friendship". My core thesis seems like it may have addressed your warning, insofar as I am interpreting you correctly.

Quote:Female friendships really aren't that hard to navigate, and have enjoyable benefits within the realistic limitations - because I don't expect them to have the depth and loyalty of male friendships, I'm not disappointed when they don't. As mentioned earlier in the thread by others, what's a greater sign of masculine power than having other women working on my behalf to get me laid? "Oh... i know this amazing guy."

All female-male friendships have an underlying sexual dynamic OR they see you as asexual omega furniture. If they see you as this, all women will likely see you as this. Being attractive is not something that you can turn on and off if it is a core part of who you are. This is my experience. That doesn't mean that men don't have female "friendships" that happen to be subject to the right tension to maintain the relationship. It just means that the dynamic is easy to disturb if you start playing a game other than the true one being played.

Post: #16

Hydro, I don't have time to Fisk your response back. You're confusing what I'm saying that specifically that relates to your situation, to the broader generalisations about the male - female friendship dynamic that I'm building upon those to illustrate the dangers of certain behaviours for the audience of other guys reading, some of whom might be younger and more inexperienced, because I did very much disagree with both this ROK article, and the your original conclusion of your post, and still do. There's a danger here, (and in another recent thread on the site), of men restricting every interaction with women to only those that provides sexual transactional value, and I think that's a toxic idea that will both isolate a man and increase his social-awkwardness around women when he does interact with them.

I thought it was self-evident, but if you can't see the constant switch from narrow to the broader, then it's down to my unclear writing style, and there's not much I can do about that. I have a habit of using 'you' as meaning 'the generic everyman reader', so where I might say "You should share a bed with anyone you don't intend to fuck..." I mean "Everyone (including me) should never share a bed with anyone they don't intend to fuck." This is probably a bad habit picked up from my universalist lyric-writing style. I'll take this as a learning experience to be much, much clearer in my writing in the future if carelessness or vagueness risks wounding anyone's ego.

Back to that original conclusion: I'll flirt with random women here and there to keep my skills up, but flirting with female friends (and coworkers) you don't intend to bang creates more problems than it's worth. What you should use on those women instead isn't Flirtation, but Charm. Charm is being fun and playful without the sexual overtones. It's what gets women trying to introduce other women to you because they clearly know there's no sexual heat between you that they can capitalise upon. The exception is, I'll playfully-flirt with much older women, because whilst we both realistically know nothing is going to happen, it reminds them of their youthful femininity and they generally adore you for it.

See? I transitioned from the personal to the broader again.

Once again, I apologise if you took my post as a personal attack. Your description of her, and your motivations just struck me as vague and couched in a lot of what I'd consider emotional qualifiers, such as nostalgia and longing, that tend to get mixed up with romantic and sexual situations, so maybe I'm simply reading far more psychological denial and evasion into the situation because of it, particularly as people aren't always the best judges of their behavioural choices if they don't have a logical, emotionally-distanced position from it, which is something I'm that I'm able to do because I'm able to simultaneously-exist within an experience whilst also observing it from the outside as a detached viewer, if that makes sense.

Either way, you've clearly stated you've processed the experience and come to a conclusion that works for you, and that's all one can hope for, really.