Post: #1

I'm surprised this isn't getting more coverage and that I just read about this now -

Effective 12.4.2015, the IRS was given power to ask that the US State Department deny, limit, or revoke passports of citizens owing over $50,000 in tax (this amount includes interest and penalties). According to the Senate Joint Committee on Taxation, the provision is expected to raise $395 million over ten years.

Of course, few citizens (and probably few congressman) had a chance to learn more about the provision prior to its taking effect, granted that it was part of a massive infrastructure spending bill (wtf?), and slipped through the cracks as a section of "H.R. 22 – Fixing America’s Surface Transportation Act, the “FAST Act.” The section itself is titled "Revocation or Denial of Passport in Case of Certain Tax Delinquencies."

This has some serious implications:

1. Although 50k worth of taxes owed seems quite large, it is actually imaginable for a specific group of citizens - those with bank accounts abroad. IRS's FATCA requires citizens with over $50,000 in controlled accounts (even if indirectly so) abroad to report these assets to the IRS. Failure to do so could result in a penalty of $10,000, and a further penalty of up to $50,000 for failure to disclose. The issue is what happens to those citizens who are negligently failing to disclose because, living abroad, they were simply unaware of the FATCA requirement? The IRS is aware of this problem, so they have developed a program which allows expats to return to the US and file back-taxes and penalties without facing criminal prosecution. Thinking about it a bit, though, this is still fairly ridiculous - why are you forced to pay penalties for failing to meet an abstract filing requirement of which you had no notice of in the first place? For how many citizens do these penalties add up to the $50k threshold in fees? Will any of these expats ever return home to find out that their passports have been revoked while they were abroad?

2. We have all read quite a bit about US grads with high debts leaving the US to avoid repaying their high-interest student loans. Although the IRS and the department of education are two fairly separate entities, the fact of the matter is that the US Gov is starving for money to deal with its massive spending deficit and perpetuate its welfare state. Unlike, negligent failures to pay taxes, failure to pay student loans is almost always willful. This leads me to think that it may be possible that, in about 10 years (when the US could potentially be in a horrible financial position), the gov could draft a law allowing the department of state to revoke passports from student debtors.

Some numbers to consider:

There are about 7 million student debtors in default (source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/about-7-mill...1440175645)

Average student debt is $20,000. (For the sake of my argument, lets reduce that to $5,000, even though debt balance of defaulters is likely significantly much higher, since that is a-priori the reason that they refuse to make payments).

If you have 7,000,000 in default, even if they only owe an average of $5,000, that is still $35,000,000,000 owed to the US gov! (interest is growing too!) Compare this to the statement of the Senate's Joint Committee on taxation, which says that its new provision will help them save a measely $395 million over ten years.


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Some general background reading about the law here:
https://www.rt.com/usa/326816-passport-r...irs-taxes/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2...41865d19d9
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2...454b6308a0
http://www.paulhastings.com/publications...00004cbded

Post: #2

How is this going to help the government exactly? Many people leave USA to find work so we can afford to live above poverty. If they start revoking the passports of those types of people they're exiling them to the same shitty economy that they left and aren't gaining anything. A guy who is forced to work at starbucks and has to choose between rent and loans is gonna just defer his loans and keep paying rent.

Post: #3

Dupe, but posted much better than I did it before. Its an important topic. Also parallel is that passports can already be seized for those owing child support debts.

Post: #4

A milder form of debtor's prison. Removing a citizen's freedom of movement because they owe the government.

You used to need a court order to prevent flight risks, but they've just given the IRS a rubber stamp to presume everyone that owes them 50k will skip out on them.

Post: #5

Also keep in mind that there's no due process. You don't have to actually owe that much. All it takes is some bureaucrat in a cubicle to say you do and your passport gets revoked with no review. There's an enormous potential for abuse.....and don't doubt for a moment they won't use it.

It's only a matter of time until they declare that Roosh may owe that much on unreported ebook sales and shut him down.

Post: #6

Its still important to note that the IRS must go through a bit of formalities before asking the state dept to seize the passport:

- a notice of federal tax lien has been filed against the individual and all administrative rights have been exhausted; or

- a levy must has been issued against the individual’s assets.

Post: #7

Relevant, and prophetic given he wrote the actual article 4 years ago: http://johntreed.myshopify.com/blogs/joh...side-of-it

In summary: this measure is one of the bricks in the financial Berlin Wall that is going up all around the United States. If Trump becomes President don't necessarily count on that wall being dismantled or construction even being ceased. In particular as inflation rises I would bet you that $50,000 in debts will not be indexed via COLA, i.e. it'll catch more and more people in a physical Berlin Wall to keep the wage slaves from making a break for the exits.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #8

It seems very difficult to escape from paying taxes in the US.

You need to pay if you earn money internationally that isn't taxed elsewhere.

Now you can have your passport revoked not for commiting a crime, but for owing someone money.

To top it all off, they've put up all these expensive hurdles to discard your US citizenship.

They really don't seem to want the workers to leave the plantation.

Post: #9

Get a second passport.

It won't solve the problem, but will give you more options.

Post: #10

Pay your debts (also don't take out 6 figure loans for a humanities degree at a tier 3 school), don't cheat on your taxes (there is a big difference between legal reduction of your tax burden and evasion), and this won't be an issue.

At the end of the day, US citizenship and a US passport is still worth a whole hell of a lot more than 50K.

Think about that when you are hanging out in Thailand or Colombia.

Imagine if you were auctioning off US citizenship and passport, how much people would pay.

Post: #11

What if you get a second passport, say Canada? What happens if you try and enter the USA with it and you've already had your US passport revoked because of student loans? Would they try to 'null' your Canadian one at all border check-ins? Flag you as some conservative red-piller deadbeat who should not be allowed entry?

For that matter, do US border officials even know who is a dual citizen and who isn't? I think I read somewhere that a Canadian passport has your city of birth on it. If so, quite the hypocrisy on Canada's part since their own Charter specifically states no Canadian citizen may be discriminated against because of nationality.

But we've already seen Canada's parliament stab every dual citizen in the back with FATCA anyway so maybe it won't matter in the least. I wouldn't count on the weenie Trudeau suddenly growing a spine, either.

Post: #12

You forgot "don't speak out".

Given that the IRS has a history of attacking right wingers I think it will take a bit more than "don't cheat on your taxes"

Post: #13

It is a Notice of Lien, not an actual lien (which needs to be signed by a judge). Look at section (a) of the Notice of Lien. You will note that it is only applicable to Federal employees (that is why they can Legally hand them out), but that does not mean they will not assign one to you and other entities (to include banks) will take actions as if it were signed by a judge.

This is a type of capital control. If you have larger financial wealth and you owe a relatively small amount (50k) in relation to your actual financial wealth, your movements will be restricted so that moving your capital will be more difficult as the world financial and monetary system disintegrates and transforms.

Post: #14

(02-27-2016 04:55 AM)VolandoVengoVolandoVoy Wrote:  Pay your debts (also don't take out 6 figure loans for a humanities degree at a tier 3 school), don't cheat on your taxes (there is a big difference between legal reduction of your tax burden and evasion), and this won't be an issue.

At the end of the day, US citizenship and a US passport is still worth a whole hell of a lot more than 50K.

Think about that when you are hanging out in Thailand or Colombia.

Imagine if you were auctioning off US citizenship and passport, how much people would pay.

Out of curiosity, why do you think so? Would the same hold true, in your opinion, for EU passports?

Post: #15

^^^

I think because the US and EU are places with high qualities of life compared to many places. Political systems are stable, the water is safe to drink, air is clean, economies are diverse and offer opportunity for those with hustle, legal systems are functional, and the police are there to help you instead of beat the shit out of you and extort your money.

Post: #16

I agree with most of those points.

Coincidentally, last night I was talking to somebody about opportunities abroad. It seems that nowadays business in the west is on lock down, which makes it harder to maintain one's own company. Corporations have less foothold in country's like India, for example. So now they seem to offer greater possibility.

Makes you think: why did people originally call America the "land of the free"? You could start your own business from scratch and get set up. That's not true anymore. Nowadays, every independent business is crushed before being born.

Or am I wrong about this?

Post: #17

This is part of the reason why I left the States for good and hesitate to come back even to visit. I have an EU passport and treasure it, even though my adopted country has plenty of problems, too.