Post: #726

^^^My only real criticism of the series is that it goes a little soft on Judas, basically implying that he didn't mean to sell Jesus out.

Otherwise, nothing else comes close. If you can finish that series without being moved, then I don't know what to say.

Post: #727

Commented on this years ago.

Still do not, but I'd consider myself more of an agnostic now, and I don't hold any grudges.

Post: #728

I am extremely interested in religions and religious history, and I was raised in a very Christian family. Sunday school every week etc. However the more I educated myself the more dubious I became. Now I would say No, I do not believe in God. I am not sure what to believe in other then in myself most days.

Post: #729

As I have gotten older I also started to question God more and more. It was also easy for me to think of Christianity as being no different from other religions. Especially considering the fact that there is a great deal of mythology and cultural forces wrapped into Christianity like any other religion. I feel as if this is often the biggest problem nonbelievers have of religion in general. However, one thing I still can't reconcile is the fact that as I've exposed myself to more literature, the Christians have always come across to me as more intellectually authentic. Atheists on the other hand have always been less intellectually sound in their writing and much more frenetic in their ideas. For example, Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and G.K. Chesterton come off to me as being extremely brilliant, but Jean Paul Sartre, Nietzsche, and even modern atheists like Richard Dawkins come off to me as being almost juvenile in the way they express their ideas. Maybe I'm biased, but the difference between the first people I've mentioned and the second is light and day. Does anyone else feel the same way??

Post: #730

(02-13-2018 07:19 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-13-2018 03:30 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  Fine tuning is such a serious issue that at this point I don't know a single serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to the Multi-Verse theory... which strikes me as ridiculous bullshit.

I have always been amused by this kind of logic. If it didn't randomly turn out to be like it is, we would hardly be sitting here amazed at it would we?
It's a bit like rolling a billion sided dice, getting the number 2134242352 and saying "that must be god doing that, because the odds of rolling that can't be an accident!!"
And you just met a serious atheist that doesn't subscribe to multi-verse theory... But ANY explanation that we dressed up monkeys come up with to explain how the fuck the universe happened ALL sound like ridiculous bullshit, especially religious explanations. Better to say "we have some ideas, but really no clue what the fuck is going on, and how all this shit happened!"

I've considered this side of the argument as well. The general argument being that life on earth evolved the way it did because the physical rules in place required it to be so. Douglas Adams put forth something similar in his Puddle Theory.

Puddle Theory fails to be satisfactory because we now know that if you roll a billion sided dice, you are going to have to roll it a near infinite number of times in order to hit the combination required to create life. Not carbon based life, but life in general. If you consider the idea the the core function of life is decreasing entropy... then this should be found in more places than just earth... and it should be done by more than just carbon based organisms on earth.

This is why very smart people subscribe to multi-verse and also to Top Down Cosmology... which has it's merits.

What I have seen of the world is this. If you are like my father and you read exclusively science, then you believe exclusively in science. If you exclusively read holy texts, then you will believe exclusively in holy texts. I read both, and I believe in both, and they don't conflict. I think the world would be better if more atheists and religious people seriously studied and considered each others understanding of the world.

Post: #731

(02-14-2018 01:46 AM)Vasily Zaytsev Wrote:  As I have gotten older I also started to question God more and more. It was also easy for me to think of Christianity as being no different from other religions. Especially considering the fact that there is a great deal of mythology and cultural forces wrapped into Christianity like any other religion. I feel as if this is often the biggest problem nonbelievers have of religion in general. However, one thing I still can't reconcile is the fact that as I've exposed myself to more literature, the Christians have always come across to me as more intellectually authentic. Atheists on the other hand have always been less intellectually sound in their writing and much more frenetic in their ideas. For example, Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and G.K. Chesterton come off to me as being extremely brilliant, but Jean Paul Sartre, Nietzsche, and even modern atheists like Richard Dawkins come off to me as being almost juvenile in the way they express their ideas. Maybe I'm biased, but the difference between the first people I've mentioned and the second is light and day. Does anyone else feel the same way??

The atheist movement of the past took a very mocking sneering tone with religion, which is why Dawkins did stuff like his "Flying Spaghetti Monster" hypothesis.

This is something I have found to be true. Religious people unless they shelter themselves completely are at one point or another forced to confront atheist ideas. Most frequently this occurs during schooling. On the other hand Atheists almost never have to confront or learn Religious ideas. Most atheists don't know how to read the Bible or even bother to try.

You can't blame them either because most Christians don't know how to read the Bible either, or even bother to try.

I have 2 true pieces of hard earned wisdom I can share on this topic. The first is that any religion whose basic formula boils down to "Do X and receive Y" is bullshit. For example... "live a good life and then you earn heaven", "give money to the church and God will give you blessings". Keep this in mind always when listening to religious leaders.

The second is this... You cannot read the Bible as you would read a history text. The Bible is poetry and allusion, it was never meant to be a scientific text. For example... if you actually read the creation story you will find that it is trying to tell you the natural order of things, not the exact time space or method in which God created the universe. If you read it carefully you will actually see two creation stories side by side. Each of the stories is telling the reader something different in allegory.

Post: #732

Christopher Hitchens once said everybody is an atheist. An atheist to other peoples gods. No one believes in Zeus and Hera. Christians dont believe Allah and Muslims dont believe Christ is god.

Post: #733

(02-14-2018 04:34 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Christopher Hitchens once said everybody is an atheist.

What he did there, I see it.

But it's just more clever word play from the New Atheists. And the new atheism was nothing more than useful idiocy.

Post: #734

(02-14-2018 02:28 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  Puddle Theory fails to be satisfactory because we now know that if you roll a billion sided dice, you are going to have to roll it a near infinite number of times in order to hit the combination required to create life. Not carbon based life, but life in general. If you consider the idea the the core function of life is decreasing entropy... then this should be found in more places than just earth... and it should be done by more than just carbon based organisms on earth.

Yes but the percent chance of it happening in a place we can observe it is 100%.

If it didn't happen (ie on all those billions of planets in the universe) then there is no one there to comment on it.

The universe is a big place, I've no doubt all sorts of weird shit is going on out there, all forms of life etc. But we are separated by gulfs of time and space that are huge (because of the small chance) that we most probably will never see them.

And it stands to reason we are not the only universe in existence as well, why should we be? Anytime we humans put ourselves in a special scenario (center of the universe) science later embarrasses us when we find out there's nothing remarkable about us at all.

Post: #735

(02-14-2018 04:34 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  Christopher Hitchens once said everybody is an atheist. An atheist to other peoples gods. No one believes in Zeus and Hera. Christians dont believe Allah and Muslims dont believe Christ is god.

Correct. Atheists just go one god more than most.

Not really a stretch of your ability to disbelieve is it?

Post: #736

(02-14-2018 02:45 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  On the other hand Atheists almost never have to confront or learn Religious ideas. Most atheists don't know how to read the Bible or even bother to try.

You can't blame them either because most Christians don't know how to read the Bible either, or even bother to try.

You seem to be leaving out the thousands of other religions from this analysis.

No one has "studied" thousands of religions.

So the issue is a simple one: Are you prepared to have "faith" in the supernatural, or not? After that you can pick any religion.

No study of a religion is really needed to make the decision on whether or not you want to suspend your rational mind and go faith based.

Post: #737

(02-14-2018 08:27 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Yes but the percent chance of it happening in a place we can observe it is 100%.
If it didn't happen (ie on all those billions of planets in the universe) then there is no one there to comment on it.
The universe is a big place, I've no doubt all sorts of weird shit is going on out there, all forms of life etc. But we are separated by gulfs of time and space that are huge (because of the small chance) that we most probably will never see them.
And it stands to reason we are not the only universe in existence as well, why should we be? Anytime we humans put ourselves in a special scenario (center of the universe) science later embarrasses us when we find out there's nothing remarkable about us at all.

Wait... you can believe in space aliens, but not God? You realize they are essentially the same thing right?

God is in essence some kind of sentient being (alien) that can manipulation dimensions that we can perceive but not touch (example - time)

Humans are a part of nature, and as such it's true that we are not extremely special. However, it should be noted that we have certain capabilities that set us above all other known life forms... so it's a weird thing of being both special and not special at the same time.

(02-14-2018 08:32 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 02:45 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  On the other hand Atheists almost never have to confront or learn Religious ideas. Most atheists don't know how to read the Bible or even bother to try.
You can't blame them either because most Christians don't know how to read the Bible either, or even bother to try.

You seem to be leaving out the thousands of other religions from this analysis.
No one has "studied" thousands of religions.
So the issue is a simple one: Are you prepared to have "faith" in the supernatural, or not? After that you can pick any religion.
No study of a religion is really needed to make the decision on whether or not you want to suspend your rational mind and go faith based.

A person doesn't just decide to have faith in God. You either feel the existence of God or you do not. If you cannot feel it, then you cannot understand.

Atheists simply have a different kind of faith... faith that there is nothing.

I want to say that you have generally interesting and good points. Nothing I have not heard before, but still you have this well thought out compared to most. You would be shocked at the number of people who really can't discuss this in depth at all.

Post: #738

(02-15-2018 03:05 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  God is in essence some kind of sentient being (alien) that can manipulation dimensions that we can perceive but not touch (example - time)

I was thinking there are probably a lot more mundane aliens. Creatures with lots of legs and things we can't even imagine. Most likely most of them don't develop intelligence like we have - more likely things they need to survive in whatever environment they have (like the alien equivalent of a long neck, breathing under hydrogen or being able to eat silicon..)

If any are intelligent, I wonder if their imagination conjured up strange, fantastic gods for them to worship? I read a lovecraft story of this alien being praying at an altar to a many-legged and mouthed horror god.

(02-15-2018 03:05 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  Humans are a part of nature, and as such it's true that we are not extremely special. However, it should be noted that we have certain capabilities that set us above all other known life forms... so it's a weird thing of being both special and not special at the same time.

Giraffes and cheeters think they have evolved survival mechanisms that no other creature has, and therefore the universe was created for them exclusively based on that evidence. :-)

(02-14-2018 02:45 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  A person doesn't just decide to have faith in God. You either feel the existence of God or you do not. If you cannot feel it, then you cannot understand.

Atheists simply have a different kind of faith... faith that there is nothing.

If you can read back along this monstrous thread, you can see my argument against that position laid on in detail.

Basically "feeling the existence" = faith. Not feeling it and being an atheists is the absence of "faith". Atheists do not have faith. They have no faith. You can't have "faith" in a lack of faith lol.

(02-14-2018 02:45 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  I want to say that you have generally interesting and good points. Nothing I have not heard before, but still you have this well thought out compared to most. You would be shocked at the number of people who really can't discuss this in depth at all.

Thank you. I miss Laska, but we hammered out both positions pretty thoroughly in this thread. Not much more to add... Either you have faith, or you don't - no amount of polite (or not so polite) rational discussion is going to change that!

Post: #739

(02-14-2018 02:45 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  On the other hand Atheists almost never have to confront or learn Religious ideas. Most atheists don't know how to read the Bible or even bother to try.

You can't blame them either because most Christians don't know how to read the Bible either, or even bother to try.

A question for you:

How can you criticize an atheist for dismissing a religion, when you yourself have done the same to thousands of them?

And it's kind of worse than that, because you have "faith" in you to believe a religion, whereas the atheists are mostly dismissing religion based on an inability to have faith, whereas you are dismissing it on a lack of knowledge of that specific religion,. yet have the potential faith to adopt a religion? If that makes sense...

Post: #740

(02-16-2018 02:28 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  A question for you:
How can you criticize an atheist for dismissing a religion, when you yourself have done the same to thousands of them?
And it's kind of worse than that, because you have "faith" in you to believe a religion, whereas the atheists are mostly dismissing religion based on an inability to have faith, whereas you are dismissing it on a lack of knowledge of that specific religion,. yet have the potential faith to adopt a religion? If that makes sense...

Yes, This is a very good question that every single person who has ANY kind of faith should be asking themselves.

I could go on at length about how I arrived at this conclusion, but I don't think it's necessary since I think you will quickly see the truth of it.

I believe that any religion whose primary purpose is to control the behavior of people by offering some kind of reward is obviously bullshit. Once you apply this particular filter... virtually all religions fall away.

Post: #741

(02-16-2018 02:21 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  I was thinking there are probably a lot more mundane aliens. Creatures with lots of legs and things we can't even imagine. Most likely most of them don't develop intelligence like we have - more likely things they need to survive in whatever environment they have (like the alien equivalent of a long neck, breathing under hydrogen or being able to eat silicon..)
If any are intelligent, I wonder if their imagination conjured up strange, fantastic gods for them to worship? I read a lovecraft story of this alien being praying at an altar to a many-legged and mouthed horror god.

When I was a small kid I played this game called Star Control 2. To this day it is still one of the best games ever made. The aliens in that game are very imaginative... I remember one in particular that lived in a gas giant... they were like sentient clouds of gas. If you like Abandonware games from the 1990's you could probably run it on DosBox for free. It combines action, comedy, exploration, and some RPG elements.

Anyway.... I'm just pointing out something that few people realize. God is a space alien. If you can believe one is possible than you can believe the other is possible... which moves you from atheist to agnostic.

We can mathematically prove 11 different dimensions. Imagine the first dimension as a dot, the second dimension as a sheet of paper, the third dimension as a cube and the fourth dimension as a cube moving inside of a cube. Apologies if you already know this. We can touch and manipulate 3 dimensions, and we can perceive the 4th (time), but we can't touch it.

Now imagine you are a creature that can only perceive 2 dimensions... you are a sheet of paper. If you looked at a 3 dimensional creature all you would see is a slice of it that exists at that time on your 2 dimensional plane. You can hold up a sheet of paper and stick a pencil through it to better visualize.

It's a complicated thought experiment, but that's generally my impression on the possibility of God. If we can pick up and manipulate 3 dimensional objects, it is possible for a being to evolve or come about which can touch and manipulate dimensions we can't even describe yet. In fact parts of our physical bodies may manifest in these dimensions that we can't perceive. If God can pick up time and throw it like a rock, or mold it like clay... the possibilities are interesting to say the least.

(02-16-2018 02:21 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Giraffes and cheeters think they have evolved survival mechanisms that no other creature has, and therefore the universe was created for them exclusively based on that evidence. :-)

Haha... your are right. We should however take a moment to worship at the altar of intelligence. Giraffes will never have the possibility of colonizing the stars, we can do it. Our ability to adapt the environment around us to suit our needs is really unparalleled on earth.

(02-16-2018 02:21 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  If you can read back along this monstrous thread, you can see my argument against that position laid on in detail.
Basically "feeling the existence" = faith. Not feeling it and being an atheists is the absence of "faith". Atheists do not have faith. They have no faith. You can't have "faith" in a lack of faith lol.

I've never looked at it that way. I will go back and look that argument up.

(02-16-2018 02:21 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Thank you. I miss Laska, but we hammered out both positions pretty thoroughly in this thread. Not much more to add... Either you have faith, or you don't - no amount of polite (or not so polite) rational discussion is going to change that!

I've seen people convert back and forth over time, although it is rare. I believe a huge chunk of the religious people on the planet are actually atheists. They just follow religion for benefits, or to fit in. I would guess that the truly religious people represent 10-30% of the population in any given place.

I tried really hard to be an atheist at one point, because I wanted to fit in. It just always felt wrong. My current opinion is that people can't control their faith. It likely comes from God.

Post: #742

Although I've always went to a Catholic school, I've been an atheist most my life. I've become more open to religion and the idea of God(In certain forms) after years of discussing spirituality with friends but especially since I've started listening to Jordan Peterson's podcast.

Jordan combines religion, science, history and psychology in a way that makes a lot of sense to me. Although I'm still struggling to comprehend everything he talks about, his ideas of religion being a representation of our own human nature and the myths and stories being the only tools or ancestors had to explain what they consciously or subconsciously knew to be true. I also like his thoughts on heaven and hell. He thinks thinks these are places you that exist here on earth, not in the after life, and that you can see people in hell if you look for them.

I'm still not familiar with these ideas but they really are pulling me away from my materialistic/atheist mentality. Peterson shows me that God is not a conscious being in the sky, but something within us.

I'd encourage anyone interested in these things to listen to his podcast. His perspective has been challenging me to look at life in a different way, and it's quite refreshing.

Post: #743

I would like to refer to Christopher Hitchens. Even if gods exist, how do you know what they want you to eat, wear or have sex with? Who can claim to know the thoughts of god?

Post: #744

Piankhi as a Christian I believe the Bible is the word of God and God does provide guidance when I pray and sometimes there's a coincidence or something and I know He is telling me something.

Christopher Hitchens is an atheist priest, his followers treat atheism as a religion. I doubt in all his cynicism and sarcasm he has brought value to any of his followers lives.

Post: #745

(03-07-2018 10:46 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  Christopher Hitchens is an atheist priest, his followers treat atheism as a religion.

"while I am now one of the public voices of atheism, I never thought of myself as an atheist before being inducted to speak as one [...] I think that 'atheist' is a term that we do not need, in the same way that we don't need a word for someone who rejects astrology.

- Sam Harris

Post: #746

@EndsExpect.

Aliens are not necessarily sentient creatures. Aliens are lifeforms that exist outside of earth. It could be bacteria or an amino acid.

Hollywood has brainwashed many to believe aliens are more advanced than humans but that is horribly wrong.

Post: #747

Without God I would have no chance at all.

I wrote a long post about being a drug addict criminal degenerate but changed it into how my faith allowed me to leave the lifestyle (making it actually a valuable post) I am finalizing.

Post: #748

CS Lewis writes in Mere Christianity that (biblical) Pride is the greatest sin in the eyes of God. Why?

Because it blinds us. We elevate ourselves, our mind, our ego to the place of God.

It's shortsightedness too. It's easy to be an atheist in this soft modern world. I wonder how many will cry out for aid when faced with catastrophe, war, or serious illness.

I can't help but be repulsed by the arrogance of atheists. Without intending to offend anyone here, I see atheists as the "clever sillies." There's got to be something psychologically broken in someone to want to proclaim that over 2,000 years of human experience is somehow reducible to the ridiculous "spaghetti monster" trope.

And just look at the typical atheist. Is this a man you would follow into battle?

Of late I've watched many, many hours of debates with the preeminent atheists and theists. The common thread is the sophistry of the atheists. They never address the subject logically, or at least dialectically, like their opponents. I've come to see that it's because they can't.

I see the appeal of the atheists to young minds. It frees them from ideals of responsibility and serving God by serving others. For me, it's no surprise that atheism finds the same refuge in the mind of a communist/socialist/facist. It's like a rejection of reality, of beauty, of things wholesome.

And yet I partly empathise with many atheists. I too am nauseous at the sight and sound of the "churchian" or cuck-christians. These losers have made an ideology out of being a weak man. These blundering blustering faggots seem to be what most atheists equate belief in God to.

What I'd say to an atheist is to allow yourself time to grow out of this mindset. Don't forge an identity out of being an atheist. Keep probing and exploring this area of thought and experience. Try to remember that you don't know what you don't know.

Post: #749

I'm at the point where I can believe in the concept of God and moral judgment, but at the same time I strongly don't believe that we re-incarnate in some other realm after death. The eternal life part seems like wishful thinking. Furthermore, Christianity demands we give thanks for eternal life even though most people deep down probably don't think that's plausible anyways.

Post: #750

we are all mini-gods. that’s my belief.