Post: #26

I'm really not sure what you are complaining about OP.
It can't be the scenery..because a lot of German cities weren't bombed to pieces during the war or haven't changed much over time.

A lot of them prefer their old style architecture and even rebuilt their cities.


I can tell for the fact of living there that Wernigerodes town hall area has not change and neither had the castle that is in the city.
In face there are laws against changing the architecture and the roofs have to been kept in the old style.
Here is a picture I took compared to your image



Have you even been to some of these cities?

Post: #27

^ pretty sure based on the OPs first post in the thread that he lives in Germany himself.

Post: #28

For what it's worth, this thread reminds me of an awkward conversation with some Germans years ago. We were in Galway, Ireland, during the time when many German companies were opening offices in Ireland for the tax benefits(?). I had just finished my Germany tour and I was telling them how beautiful I thought their country was.

The German woman shuffled in her seat and exclaimed "Ja, but the Americans destroyed the beauty of our cities in the war." The bar got really quiet, and all the Irish were looking pensively at us. The German husband looked really nervous at this point. One of those elephant in the room moments. I cut the tension with "Yea, war is hell..." and the pub breathed a collective sigh of relief

Reflecting back on it, the cultural value that was lost is indeed tragic. Hundreds, if not thousands of years of history and architecture wiped out on a massive scale over the span of a few years. Germany is and was one of the brightest gems of European culture, and as someone with German ancestors, it pains me to see the destruction that was wrought on architectural marvels that can't be replaced.

I wonder how the story of WW2 would have been told if history played out differently. Anyone whose read Solzhenitsyn will understand that the Soviets were at least, if not more evil than the Nazis. The body counts confirm it. The story of the holocaust of Dresden is rarely told, and I'm sure there are many atrocities that were carried out by the allies that will never see the light of day. Osaka was spared by the Allies because it was the cultural heartland of Japan, but Germany was subject to utter destruction. An entire cultural history was wiped out and many innocent parties were crushed in order to win a war. While I don't agree with it, I can at least understand the quiet resentment many Germans may have felt back then.

Not complaining, but raising my glass in remembrance of all that Germany was, and is. Prost.

Post: #29

(01-16-2016 07:23 PM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  The German woman shuffled in her seat and exclaimed "Ja, but the Americans destroyed the beauty of our cities in the war." The bar got really quiet, and all the Irish were looking pensively at us. The German husband looked really nervous at this point. One of those elephant in the room moments. I cut the tension with "Yea, war is hell..." and the pub breathed a collective sigh of relief

The truth would have really hurt her there.

"I guess someone should have told Hitler not to declare war on America."

Post: #30

(01-16-2016 07:58 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(01-16-2016 07:23 PM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  The German woman shuffled in her seat and exclaimed "Ja, but the Americans destroyed the beauty of our cities in the war." The bar got really quiet, and all the Irish were looking pensively at us. The German husband looked really nervous at this point. One of those elephant in the room moments. I cut the tension with "Yea, war is hell..." and the pub breathed a collective sigh of relief

The truth would have really hurt her there.

"I guess someone should have told Hitler not to declare war on America."

The US were involved first by supplying military equipment and supplies to Stalin. Without that, Russia would have surely fallen to Hitler.

The real crime as the US getting involved in World War 1 only because the zionists wanted Israel and made an underhand agreement with the British to get America involved in exchange for the Palestine (Balfour Declaration).

Germany was a great ally of the US before that and almost all Americans had a favorable view of Germany.

Then the zionist press began running massive attack ads on Germany:









The Hun.

Germans are Nordic, Huns were Turkic. Back then people didn't have the internet to look up facts.

The Germans in turn saw the American involvement as a great betrayal and pointed the finger decisevely in one direction:



Translation: He is to blame/responsible for wars

Post: #31

A little known fact is that Germans had the biggest impact on the development of asia. Yeah that's right..Germans not Americans.

The prussian economic system and Clausewitz era military influenced Japan a great deal. Japan's greatest economic reformations came from Prussia.

The KMT was also heavily influenced by the German military up until the axis/allies battle lines were cemented. Chiang Kai Shek's adopted son (Chiang Wei Kuo) actually trained with the elite Wehrmacht mountain troop and did the whole edelweiss thing.

The golden age of German military and culture was probably prior to WW1 when it was still Prussia.

Post: #32

Quote:The US were involved first by supplying military equipment and supplies to Stalin. Without that, Russia would have surely fallen to Hitler.

The real crime as the US getting involved in World War 1 only because the zionists wanted Israel and made an underhand agreement with the British to get America involved in exchange for the Palestine (Balfour Declaration).

Germany was a great ally of the US before that and almost all Americans had a favorable view of Germany.

You should look deeper into this story. The truth is far more complex than this and rests with Germany's secretary of state named Zimmerman, the guy who wrote the Zimmerman telegram. Turns out Germany had a traitor deep within it's ranks back then. The Jews didn't trick America, they already had agents deep within Germany and Britain to make it look like Germany had secret plans to get Mexico to invade the USA.

Zimmerman wrote the telegram against explicit orders of his superiors, then publically admitted he wrote it after the telegram was discovered. Republicans first stated that the telegram was bullshit, as most Americans were isolationist, but then Zimmerman publicly declared he wrote it and it was authentic. I mean who the hell does that other than to fuck over his own country? Afterwards Americans became extremely fearful and declared war on Germany in response.

Read these it will blow your mind at how such a wretched man could have existed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Zimmermann

He fucked over his country permanently. He also was instrumental in supporting the Communists to the east. He was Secretary of State for just one year, and managed to put the Communists in power and get America involved in WW1. Of course Zimmerman immediately resigned and lived a disgraced life afterwards, but he must have been handsomely recompensated by Jewry to have done this. Or maybe he wasn't. Make a deal with devils and get burned.

Quote:In March 1917, with the imminent collapse of the Russian front, Zimmermann took steps to promote Peace in the East with the Russians, a proposal that was of immense importance to Germany at the time. The foreign secretary set forth the following: regulations for frontline contacts with the opposite side; reciprocal withdrawal of the occupied areas; an amicable agreement about Poland, Lithuania, and Kurland; and a promise to aid Russia in its reconstruction and rehabilitation. Last not least, Lenin and the émigré revolutionaries would be allowed to pass through Germany to Russia by train. These proposals once carried out, would free Germany's armies in the east and allow them to be concentrated in the west, a master-stroke that would reinforce the German western front vastly. Zimmermann thus contributed to the outcome of the October Revolution.

Lenin and his emigre revolutionaries: 80% Jews. And no one cared to notice because they were so happy with the war ending on the Eastern Front. Meanwhile, with his newly gained trust of the German government and German people, Zimmerman got orders to send a telegram to Mexico asking them to invade the USA. He was then instructed to send it through specific channels to the German embassy in America, which was then intercepted by British spies who were awaiting the telegram. This was then reported to the parts of the American media that were Jewish owned.

The Jews had tremendous influence of WW1 almost the entire time. They had infiltrated top levels with their own members or agents working for them. It's pretty amazing yet disturbing. The Balfour declaration was signed because the Jews knew they could deliver their end of the bargain to the Brits.

Post: #33

(01-16-2016 07:58 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(01-16-2016 07:23 PM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  The German woman shuffled in her seat and exclaimed "Ja, but the Americans destroyed the beauty of our cities in the war." The bar got really quiet, and all the Irish were looking pensively at us. The German husband looked really nervous at this point. One of those elephant in the room moments. I cut the tension with "Yea, war is hell..." and the pub breathed a collective sigh of relief

The truth would have really hurt her there.

"I guess someone should have told Hitler not to declare war on America."

What a lot of people forget, France and the UK declared war on Germany. And non of them declared war on the Soviet Union after they took their part of Poland.
Anyway the declaration of war against the USA was a mistake like Hitler did many.
For example if it wasn't for Mussolini Germans would have moore troops to invade Russia.

Post: #34

What OP is referring to is very real. Frankfurt was 90% flattened, Cologne similar. Berlin about 50%. Of course you will find examples of old architecture in smaller cities. But the proper regal stuff, like Vienna or Paris, does not exist in Germany anymore. Rebuilding is not the same.

In addition, many liberal Germans disagree with rebuilding classical architecture because of the perceived imperialist connotations, which is a great shame.

Somebody posted modern pictures of that same building above. Don't the cars really ruin the effect? Nowadays, most cathedrals are isolated by disgusting motorways. Hardly its intended effect.

Post: #35

(01-17-2016 04:03 AM)churros Wrote:  In addition, many liberal Germans disagree with rebuilding classical architecture because of the perceived imperialist connotations, which is a great shame.

Now here's the core of the issue, as far as I'm concerned.

Basically Europeans aren't allowed to shine any more because it embarrasses the rest of the world.

Post: #36

(01-17-2016 04:03 AM)churros Wrote:  What OP is referring to is very real. Frankfurt was 90% flattened, Cologne similar. Berlin about 50%. Of course you will find examples of old architecture in smaller cities. But the proper regal stuff, like Vienna or Paris, does not exist in Germany anymore. Rebuilding is not the same.

In addition, many liberal Germans disagree with rebuilding classical architecture because of the perceived imperialist connotations, which is a great shame.

Somebody posted modern pictures of that same building above. Don't the cars really ruin the effect? Nowadays, most cathedrals are isolated by disgusting motorways. Hardly its intended effect.

You're new, but I'm curious where you get the idea that Germans don't want to rebuild their old buildings.
I have never came across a German with the attitude. They may detest the ideas of the past, but they value the architecture. No one frequents a churches and old buildings as they use to, but there doesn't seem to be much intent to knock them down.
On average.. they just knock off the Nazi symbols from buildings.
A lot of building around German military areas have obvious spots where they chiseled off Nazi war eagles, but kept the entire buildings.

The picture I posted... The cars do not ruin anything. That area is not a motorway. That was during an event.
The area continues to be pedestrian.

If it wasn't a car.. it would be a carriage. Unless you are saying that Europeans should also move solely by carriage, I don't see why an occasional car makes a difference.




As for proper regal? What exactly do you mean?
German has is own recreation of the palace park of Versailles.
Its called Sanssouci, and Germany actively preserves and reconstructs it



Along with Dresden which was also bombed to dust.


I took all these pictures in recent years...My only gripe is the claims of old buildings.
I find it funny when some Europeans make claims that American buildings are so new.
When.. A lot of the "old" buildings there are recreations post war.

Post: #37

Hey guys - I'm the OP. To answer some of the questions that came up:

1) No, I don't live in Germany but I spent over a decade there. I do speak fluent German including several regional dialects.
2) Some of you opined that I was complaining and that wasn't really the intent of this thread. I just wanted to depict some of the cultural heritage that the Germans lost in the process of two consecutive world wars, the second being the more destructive to its civil populations and cities.
3) Yes, of course some of the buildings featured still exist but I think we can agree that the majority of the original cities were destroyed in WW2. So while some remnants have survived I encourage you to travel outside the city centers and tourist spots and see for yourselves. Most of what you will find today are functional and clean cities but they are not known to be very beautiful. As a matter of fact if you would say to a French person how beautiful German cities are he/she would most likely laugh in your face (and rightly so). Paris for instance would not be known as the 'city of love' and the #1 most desired tourist destination had it suffered a similar fate as for instance Dresden or Frankfurt.
4) Clearly some of the more remote or strategically unimportant places in the country have survived and fortunately so. The one exception being Munich perhaps which was damaged but much of its beauty has been conserved to this day. But I was specifically referring to cities - perhaps I should have posted more pictures of only Berlin

This was Frankfurt am Main in 1900:



Believe me if I tell you that Frankfurt is NOT known to be a beautiful city today ;-)

I hope that answers some of what has been brought up.

Post: #38

Sourcecode:

Yeah of course certain things weren't destroyed, like Sansouci. But that's way outside Berlin. When I say regal, I mean cities centres with Roman pillars and arches. Nothing in Germany is on the scale of Vienna or Paris in that regard. Maybe Munich or Hamburg come closer. Dresden is supposed to be beautiful, true, but it's much smaller and the other half of the city was flattened.

About the liberal Germans: that was something I was told while living in Frankfurt. I was lamenting the destruction of old buildings, and my host at the time told me some stories. I'm very confident that a substantial amount of the German left hold this view. You'd need to look more closely at the politics of post-war rebuilding for further confirmation of that.

The car thing is a pet peeve. I think they should be banned from city centres, but that's another issue.

Post: #39

Redpillage, the picture in your post is ridiculously large and makes reading your post a task. Next time you want to post an image that's larger than the screen, please include in the tag img=800x600]URL[/img] or similar.

Post: #40

(01-17-2016 10:23 AM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  Redpillage, the picture in your post is ridiculously large and makes reading your post a task. Next time you want to post an image that's larger than the screen, please include in the tag img=800x600]URL[/img] or similar.

TOTALLY AGREE!! I actually tried to upload a smaller version I had created in Photoshop but the damn thing didn't upload and after five attempts I finally gave up. I didn't know the image tag here permitted sizing. I would do it now but it's past the 60-minute timeout. Apologies - perhaps one of the admins here could take care of it?

Post: #41

(01-16-2016 05:45 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

(01-16-2016 10:23 AM)aSimpNamedBrokeback Wrote:  If you were transported back to those times you would be struck by the smell of burning coal and soot everywhere, as well as the raw sewage in the rivers, and mud everywhere after it rained.

and horse shit. I remember reading some history archives about madison wi pre automobile and there being these summer shit epedemics that would stink up the entire downtown and people would get ill en masse.

Hell, you could smell NYC from miles away because of all the horse shit circa 1900.

Post: #42

I was in frankfurt two or three years ago and I thought it was beautiful. The main square honestly looked just like your picture. Here is a modern photo from the wikipedia page.



My understanding is that there were detailed architectural records from which the germans carefully reconstructed the old architecture. I was sure it was the vast majority, and am confident that if we do a google search we can actually get a number for how much was preserved.

A respect for antiquity is all well and good but as far as I've seen all of these building are still there. There are other building which are more modern... one can argue that the architecture allowed for by modern styles is ugly and uninspiring but that is not what people are saying in this thread.

Post: #43

Delete

Post: #44

(01-16-2016 12:36 PM)captndonk Wrote:  

(01-16-2016 12:20 PM)Laurifer Wrote:  A good portion of southern Germany escaped allied bombing, so Stuttgart and Munich are supposed to be well preserved.

No not at all. Stuttgart was attacked 53 times, 39125 buildings were destroyed or damaged. The overall destruction downtown was 68%

This is not a natural mountain, it is build of the debris of the City.
Only some churches and castles were rebuild. (more or less)

When I was a child I once found a picture book of Stuttgart at home. I was shocked.

Oh, this is what I was told by an Indian hotel owner in a Turkish neighborhood in Frankfurt

Post: #45

Like others have pointed out, it's easy to get nostalgic about the past, but remember the modern conveniences that we take for granted were only a pipe dream back then, and day-to-day life was a lot of work just to stay afloat, never mind trying to get ahead. Think about it, where did garbage go? There weren't trucks driving around to pick it up. Toilet paper and hygiene products? Nah. Imagine the scent that would hit your nose the first time you took a girl's pants off back then. It'd be like raw meat that got left in the unplugged refrigerator at a sewage plant the day after Burrito night.

Post: #46

(01-17-2016 03:26 PM)nek Wrote:  Like others have pointed out, it's easy to get nostalgic about the past, but remember the modern conveniences that we take for granted were only a pipe dream back then, and day-to-day life was a lot of work just to stay afloat, never mind trying to get ahead. Think about it, where did garbage go? There weren't trucks driving around to pick it up. Toilet paper and hygiene products? Nah. Imagine the scent that would hit your nose the first time you took a girl's pants off back then. It'd be like raw meat that got left in the unplugged refrigerator at a sewage plant the day after Burrito night.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. But one does not exclude the other, right? The inhabitants of Paris and Madrid get to enjoy both - original architecture as well as modern conveniences.

BTW, the bigger question to be addressed is why the bloody hell we don't build like this anymore. The answer is that we don't care much for posterity anymore - our civilization has slowly shifted from social/cultural/intellectual pursuits to mostly economic/industrial ones. That IMO is tragic and it is one of the main reasons why our cities are a) ugly and b) dehumanizing. There are many lessons to be learned from antique architecture, quite a bit of it may be inefficient and too embellished but it does nurture the soul, doesn't it?

Over a thousand years later we reconnected with the past during the Gothic and Renaissance period, reconstructing many architectural traditions first spearheaded by the Romans a millennium earlier. There is no reason we can't once again find inspiration in the way cities/towns used to be function. Right now we are building cities around cars and transportation hubs - it is clear to me that those types of malcreations produce human beings who on average lack a connection with their cultural past. Having spent much time in the United States and then having left for Europe I can tell you first hand that the emotional impact of spending extensive amount of times surrounded by restored antique buildings does change you little. Human beings naturally flock to those areas and social bonds/activities flow easily. Children play in the streets, people are singing and whistling, they feel safe and at peace.

But not once have I seen this topic addressed in the media. Most of us have been condemned to spend our lifetime in dehumanizing artificial sterile surroundings. There is very little that touches the soul and the end result is the yo-lo me-first culture that you see all around you. Many of the issues we are debating here are cultural - and aren't our cities the main representation of our culture? More so than a painting or a sculpture?

Post: #47

An even more recent picture of Wernigerode.
The snow really ruins the picture, doesn't it?

Post: #48

(01-16-2016 07:23 PM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  The German woman shuffled in her seat and exclaimed "Ja, but the Americans destroyed the beauty of our cities in the war." The bar got really quiet, and all the Irish were looking pensively at us. The German husband looked really nervous at this point. One of those elephant in the room moments.

Bitches always be trying to stir shit up...

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #49

Two key forces led to the destruction of most German cities:

1. Allied bombing campaigns (led by Sir Arthur Harris of the Royal Air Forces)

2. The Soviet Invasion on the Eastern Front

No one seems to be mentioning this second factor in this thread. Hitler had a policy called "festung" which meant that he wanted the retreating German forces to hold the cities like fortresses. The Soviets would then attack and the entire city would be destroyed. This happened to many beautiful cities (many of them in Slavic countries):

Konigsberg (now in Kaliningrad Oblast) which was the main city of the Prussian exclave, totally wiped off the map and replaced with hideous architecture.

Breslau (now Wroclaw Poland)

Poznan (which was always a Polish city)

Kiev

And of course others.

The Germans destroyed countless cultural artefacts and cities in their eastern campaign. They literally wanted to wipe "non Aryan" elements of Poland away. For some reason, Hitler believed Krakow was "Aryan" so it was not impacted that heavily.

The real unnecessary tragedy, as the OP mentions, is the Allied use of "area bombing" that was justified because it would "crush the morale" of the Germans. The bombing of Dresden always gets pointed out, but in the last year of the war, this was beyond ridiculous and a huge violation of not just human rights, but human culture as well.

"lets bomb museums, cathedrals, theatres and libraries!! Democracy baby!"

If you walk around Hamburg, for instance, you'll see it's mostly modern architecture. If you love modern architecture, the city is quite amazing, though I generally prefer the older styles. They have even left the cathedral as it was, as a sort of symbol.

Post: #50

2012 a single bomb couldn't be defused. Therefore the Kampfmittelräumdienst had to blow it up. See the video: