Post: #1

For the last 40 years or so I have worked as a counselor for various religious nonprofits and over the years I have gained a good, solid reputation for working with medical professionals in dealing with depression and anxiety and I also work in the arenas of vocational counseling and life management.

I have always wandered toward red pill thinking and I became fascinated with studies on masculinity from a non-feminist viewpoint, devouring everything I could get my hands on. Two years ago, I read my first ROK article and I devoured the site as fast as I could. As far as red pill thinking, I still have a way to go, but as I stated in the comment section of A.V. Yader's ROK article on never dating women who take prescription drugs, I have counseled numerous women and I would like to share my observations here:

1. After 40 years of counseling, I have never seen a woman change for the better. Counseling from a female client's perspective is only for validation and venting. Any attempt to push them toward actual change is rejected, sometimes very strongly.
2. Women never take responsibility for their actions. It is always somebody else's fault. Show me a man who comes to me to deal with abuse from his childhood and if you give him the proper tools, he will take responsibility to change his self-definition and move past it. A woman uses past abuse as an excuse for her present self-defeating and self-destructive behaviors.
3. Women are oriented toward emotions. Men are oriented toward results.
4. If you are employed with a woman over you as supervisor, you are in a hell I cannot even begin to imagine. Not to say all male bosses are great to work for, but women bosses, supervisors, and CEO's across the board are going to drive the business into the ground. Remember I do vocational counseling? Guess what gender has the highest percentages of failed businesses?
5. I asked my peers in the nonprofit field what gender caused the most conflict in their industry as volunteers. Ninety percent of the conflict they reported was created by women and, even worse, women would strongly resist attempts for resolution. Any nonprofit that has a high ratio of male volunteers is more effective across the board because men are results oriented. Women are more interested in how volunteering for a nonprofit makes them feel.

I still have a long way to go toward solid red pill thinking. As a counselor, I still suffer from the faint echoes of "white knight syndrome." A good chunk of my education was blue pill and when it's that embedded in your head, it can sneak up on you. But let me sum up the conclusion that I have come to and one that if I expressed it to my peers would have me standing on a street corner with a sign saying, "Will Counsel For Food."

Men and women do best in a patriarchal, family-oriented community with a culture that adheres to a solid, external, traditional code of ethics and mores with clearly defined gender definitions, expectations, and roles coupled with a solid willingness to expel those who rebel against the community.

Thoughts, comments, criticisms, and rebuttals welcome. When you've dealt with people who have threatened to kill you and go into graphic detail what they were going to do with your body, I can put up with criticism on an Internet forum. ;-)

Post: #2

MUH TRIGGERS

Kidding. This is a very useful set of observations.

Post: #3

My only critique is that you have a biased sample. I.e. you don't see all the well adjusted women because they don't need counselling, and you don't see all the psychopathic/neurotic men because they don't need validation and men don't like asking for help.

Post: #4

(01-08-2016 11:36 PM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  I.e. you don't see all the well adjusted women

Does this exist in large quantities? I know of a handful, they are the exception. Not all women are alike but the majority are.

Your points are fair on an objective analysis level. From a completeness perspective, yes there are maybe some categories of people missing. But I bet the men that could benefit from some help are far more productive than the women.

Post: #5

This type of stuff coming from a therapist is really interesting to me, and I'd tend to agree with most of your observations and conclusions about differences in gender psychology, however...

I'd find it a lot more believable and less biased if you had thrown in some positives about the female patients or negatives about the males, even if they were only slight positives or negatives.

It's kind of like when you're reading a book review on Amazon and you come across a review that refuses to say even one single negative thing about the book being reviewed. You don't need to be a genius to see those reviews are either fake or biased - at best, they're hard to learn anything from because they're just too fanboyish. Hence why I always read the 3 star reviews if I want a balanced perspective and some info worth having.

That's the feeling I get when I read the OP - it comes across really black and white coming from what should be a neutral party. I would expect to see more balance in your observations even while recognizing these truths. Are there any admirable traits about women professionals or positives to working with them?

Are you sure your red pill readings aren't affecting the way you percieve your clients?

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #6

(01-09-2016 12:32 AM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(01-08-2016 11:36 PM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  I.e. you don't see all the well adjusted women

Does this exist in large quantities? I know of a handful, they are the exception. Not all women are alike but the majority are.

Your points are fair on an objective analysis level. From a completeness perspective, yes there are maybe some categories of people missing. But I bet the men that could benefit from some help are far more productive than the women.

I bet so too, and I don't disagree with the gist of what OP says.

But it's good to understand one's own cognitive biases. Awareness of what you know is mere knowledge; Awareness of what you do not know, that is wisdom.

My concern is that OP is taking his therapeutic experiences and applying it to the population at large, which may lead to incorrect conclusions. Like Beyond Borders said, the analysis is a bit too black-and-white.

Post: #7

As someone who dated a woman long involved in what I'll call "therapy culture," I'll vouch for the original poster's points.

In fact, I've mentioned this event on this forum before, but I'll repeat it here. Once when this woman came tome for the umpteenth time with a family a problem, I had a solution ready. To my surprise, this enraged her.

She accused me of being "too male" and wanting to solve problems which to her was a bad quality. What she wanted, she said, was someone to just listen, which was a female quality and apparently good.

This is a spoiled rich girl I dated both before and after my marriage and she'd been in therapy with one or more counselors since she was a teenager. This is what she learned.

In fact, every time I've ever suggested anything to her -- from investing in mutual funds I'd found to dealing with a boss to solving health issues -- it fell on deaf ears. She simply wanted to complain and needed someone to listen.

Why did I deal with all this? That's easy: A face like Reese Witherspoon, bigger, more perfect tits than Reese, and a willingness to "experiment" (heh). You don't think I'm an idiot, do you all?

Post: #8

If you've really been in the profession for 40 years you definitely need to post more of your observations. Not only are you an elder statesman, but you've got decades of invaluable experience.

Post: #9

Remember that book, Men Are From Mars Women are From Venus? The central theme of that book is that women don't want to have their problems solved. The author recommends you just listen to women complain but don't give them any advice on how to solve their problems. They just want to vent and be validated. Same as the OP observation.

Post: #10

I think it's important to make distinctions with regard to both the kind of problem that the therapy is attempting to address, and the kind of therapy that is being used.

The only therapy that has been shown in repeated studies, over some decades now, to be highly effective in addressing some rather serious and thorny problems is CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) and its relatives, such as REBT (covered by Dusty in his wonderful thread). And the types of problems that can be addressed by CBT/REBT are varieties of depression, anxiety, OCD, panic, shyness, phobias, etc.

In this context: CBT/REBT applied to reasonably well-defined psychological problems, with the goal of effecting an improvement within a finite period of time -- all evidence shows that results do not differ significantly by sex. Female patients respond just as well to CBT as do male patients (indeed, arguably better in some contexts but that is not really relevant to the discussion).

Now, when we are talking about counseling to address much more loosely defined life problems and goals, that is a different matter and it's certainly true that women, generally speaking, are not interested in receiving specific and actionable advice in the way that men are. And when it comes to other varieties of therapy (such as psychoanalysis and related approaches), then the truth is that it's usually ineffective for both men and women, and amounts to little more than useless regurgitation of the past (something that women can abide for far longer and far more readily than most men, who eventually tire of it).

However, without disputing the observations in the OP, I would not want anyone to come away with the idea that well-tested approaches like CBT are of no use to women who need to deal with a specific, well-defined psychological problem. That's simply not the case, and if you know a woman who is in need of solving such a problem, please don't let these observations deter you from recommending CBT or REBT to her. It is very likely to be useful, or at least as likely as it would be with a man.

Post: #11

(01-09-2016 12:08 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Remember that book, Men Are From Mars Women are From Venus? The central theme of that book is that women don't want to have their problems solved. The author recommends you just listen to women complain but don't give them any advice on how to solve their problems. They just want to vent and be validated. Same as the OP observation.

If a man has a problem, and he can't fix it himself, he might ask for help from others, or use them as a sounding board, but he has already decided that his problem is valid, that is assumed.

A woman, on the other hand, knows in many cases that her problem is either invalid because it is based on choices she has made, or the result of trying to rationalize away truths that are damaging to her ego.

She knows she is full of shit.

At the same time, she wants to believe she has every right to feel the way she does.

So standard operating procedure for women among themselves is that when one woman tells a story, all the others sympathize with her, knowing she is full of shit, all with the knowledge that if any of the listeners ever wants to tell a bogus story that makes her feel better, that the others will automatically agree with her and support her.

It is a female quid pro quo, unspoken and understood by all women everywhere. That's why they can't understand it when men take a problem solving approach. To them if feels like they are being cheated.

Post: #12

Interesting insight.

I am of the opinion that women talked about their "problems" because they want to be the center of attention (2) The process of talking about their "problems" cause their brains to think of more things about that same "problem" to talk about-- this serves the purpose of revving up their emotion in a feedback loop. (3) They strangely enjoy that heightened emotional state.

I will give you a personal case.

I had this girl at my place and she was going to work in 2 hours. She looked out of the window and her car was gone.

She went into panic mode and started crying.

I immediately went into action and quickly asked her these information: color, make and model, driving license, car insurance, registration etc. I took a pen and paper to get everything so that when i call the police/911 i will have everything ready for them.

Here is what happened next (Honest to God, i shit you not!)

She won't answer any of my questions, regardless of how many times i asked her for these information. Instead, you know what she did?

She picked up her phone and started calling her friends, crying to tell them how her car was stolen; how in the world is she going to get to work; how much the car cost; some of the things in her car; how is she going to get this back or get that back; blah blah blah. On and on and on.

After she called a friend and that friend consoled her and tell her to immediately call the police; instead of calling the police, you what she will do? SHE WILL THEN CALL YET ANOTHER FRIEND TO CRY AND COMPLAIN ABOUT HER CAR BEING STOLEN...

She was doing this over and over and over again with different friends... crying, whining, pity-party, coming up with increasingly dire scenarios about her car and belongings, with each new friend she called. Over and over and over again.

I was insanely furious. I Just stopped giving a fuck. I just stood there and watched her like a scientist curiously observing a laboratory animal.

She completely ignore the "call the police" part either from me or her friends... she just want to use the situation to (1)Be the center of attention (2) Talk and talk and cry and whine and rev up her emotions.

That situation is just an emotional fuel for her.

Later on she did call the police, but only after she had called 6 or 8 friends and the emotional heat as died off. Of course, she let social media knows her car was stolen. To her, that emotional intensity and feeling the situation generates, is far more important that ACTUALLY SOLVING THE PROBLEM. She needed to feed that emotional state first, only and only after that, can she move on.

What actually happened to her car?

For one thing, it wasn't stolen. When she finally got to calling the police and gave them her info, they told her she packed on the wrong side of the street that is why her car was towed. That she can come right away to pick up her car, that all she had to do was pay the fine.

That was it.

They gave her the address; we went there, she paid the bill and got her car.

All of this barely took us 30minutes -- we could have solved this "car problem" from the get go. But that would be standing in the way of the emotional drama that ensues... so we cannot have that!

(01-09-2016 01:24 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(01-09-2016 12:08 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Remember that book, Men Are From Mars Women are From Venus? The central theme of that book is that women don't want to have their problems solved. The author recommends you just listen to women complain but don't give them any advice on how to solve their problems. They just want to vent and be validated. Same as the OP observation.

If a man has a problem, and he can't fix it himself, he might ask for help from others, or use them as a sounding board, but he has already decided that his problem is valid, that is assumed.

A woman, on the other hand, knows in many cases that her problem is either invalid because it is based on choices she has made, or the result of trying to rationalize away truths that are damaging to her ego.

She knows she is full of shit.

At the same time, she wants to believe she has every right to feel the way she does.

So standard operating procedure for women among themselves is that when one woman tells a story, all the others sympathize with her, knowing she is full of shit, all with the knowledge that if any of the listeners ever wants to tell a bogus story that makes her feel better, that the others will automatically agree with her and support her.

It is a female quid pro quo, unspoken and understood by all women everywhere. That's why they can't understand it when men take a problem solving approach. To them if feels like they are being cheated.

Post: #13

Frankly, I hate this sense of emotional immaturity that white knighting only encourages.

I genuinely appreciate the insight.

Post: #14

Quote:3. Women are oriented toward emotions. Men are oriented toward results.

Money. This is why wiser men in times gone by never gave women any real political power. Simply put, women operate on the feelz, which is just fine for interpersonal relationships, but it is no way to manage a business or country.

Post: #15

First off, I totally agree that most women bosses are the devil. There is that 5-10% that are very legit but the vast majority are garbage. I have had dick male bosses (who hasn't) but nearly all my female supervisors were vindictive cunts. They thrive and live for drama and blow shit WAY out of proportion ALL the fucking time.

Days of Broken Arrows mentioned "therapy culture" and that got me thinking about an ex who just lived for wallowing in her problems and going to group thearpy all the time but never resolving anything. What a high-maintenance PITA that girl was. I use to be very understanding and very sympathetic to women with psychological struggles and would keep an open mind when dating these sort of therapy culture chicks. Never again. One time isolated event kind of thing (someone dying and acutely depressed)? Of course, I got their back. But if I hear about multi-year "struggles" with group therapy, psych meds, anxiety issues, or other bullshit? Fuck them. They are emotional vampires and they will suck every bit of positive energy and goodwill that exists in your body. Zero exceptions.

Furthermore, one of the greatest mistakes of my life was believing that you could solve a problem jointly with a woman and that they would contribute to solving the problem. I honestly thought they could and should be joint equal partners in most matters and as a result, I wasted so much time trying to talk things out logically with women for it all to just fall on deaf ears in the end.

It wasn't until I was older that I realized that you need to simply take command of the situation and do what needs to be done; irregardless of what the woman thinks. You can consider her input but ultimately with matters of consequence: You lead, she follows. The fuckin end. There is only ONE captain of this ship. She doesn't like it? She can get the fuck lost then.

I've ended numerous mini-relationships over the past several years because the women I was seeing were entirely incapable of following a man as a concept. This had little to do with my game but instead decades of poisonous programming that simply can't be unfucked completely with some game techniques. It's one of the first things I evaluate when getting to know a new woman and if I so much as get a whiff that a woman isn't capable of following my command, they are dead to me. I can only imagine how much harmony would exist in the western world if most women were psychologically capable of simply deferring to a man in relationships.

Post: #16

(01-10-2016 04:52 AM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

Quote:3. Women are oriented toward emotions. Men are oriented toward results.

Money. This is why wiser men in times gone by never gave women any real political power. Simply put, women operate on the feelz, which is just fine for interpersonal relationships, but it is no way to manage a business or country.

I'll play devil's advocate. This could be a tremendously positive quality, if used correctly. The vast majority of people should never even think about having political power, but when it comes down to two largely credible candidates (for instance, Churchill and Thatcher) you can easily see that their gender permits them different strengths and weaknesses. From a purely evolutionary perspective, women are indispensable to society (hence why men are the fighters, soldiers, and protectors; in other words their lives are replaceable). I certainly wouldn't not vote for a woman strictly based on their gender, given that they held traditional values. Nikki Haley, the governor of South Carolina, is an example of a female politician I highly respect.

Post: #17

(01-09-2016 01:24 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  So standard operating procedure for women among themselves is that when one woman tells a story, all the others sympathize with her, knowing she is full of shit, all with the knowledge that if any of the listeners ever wants to tell a bogus story that makes her feel better, that the others will automatically agree with her and support her.

Related to this, and the op,
I have an ex from long ago who still calls me from time to time to talk about some problem or other she is having (and no, I don't think that's beta, I find it entertaining and educational). I'm not one to beat around the bush. I always tell it as I see it even if it bruises egos and hurts feeewings. Men generally respect this, women probably think I'm a prick, I give no fucks.
Whenever she calls up and tells some sorry story, basically I process it and give my response based on taking the information I've been given and passing it through my inbuilt red pill filter.
Mostly I get hung up on. Sometimes I get called every name you can think of in a screechy voice and then hung up on. Then I have no communication with her for months until the process is repeated.

9 times out of 10 though, she ends up doing what I suggested or repeating what I told her in her own words, as her opinion.

I reckon there's this little voice there, constantly nagging in the back of their minds. It could be Common Sense, or Logic, or Guilt. I think most women are pretty good at ignoring it, but it's there, and some girls just want someone to confirm or deny this strange conflicting idea because they don't understand it. Probably it is also to help feed that "peak emotional state" that Dr Kahn described.
Anyway, one day fairly recently she calls me up, tells me about some bullshit I can't remember, and I responded (calmly)"Yeah ok, but you're not going to like what I have to say"
She replied (not calmly) "I know, that's why I called YOU!....It's no good talking to my sister or my friends, they'll all just agree with me. I don't want fucking sympathy, I want to know how to FIX it!"

Post: #18

(01-08-2016 11:36 PM)Thomas the Rhymer Wrote:  My only critique is that you have a biased sample.

Agreed, and I see my error in my post.

My post was a response to a ROK post about mentally ill women and I should have changed the word, "women" to "female counselees."

Bottom line: Once broken, the vast majority remain broken.

Post: #19

(01-09-2016 03:26 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  I'd find it a lot more believable and less biased if you had thrown in some positives about the female patients or negatives about the males, even if they were only slight positives or negatives.

I thought about your question for two days and mentally reviewed my experiences.

I did discover that women are more likely to keep their appointments while men can easily turn into no-shows.

Women spill their guts completely practically in the first session while it may take a number of sessions for men to tell me that one piece of information that is the breakthrough. Two examples: 1) One man waited until the tenth session about his marital problems until he finally told me his wife was pathologically obsessed with guilt over her abortion. 2) Another came to see me off and on for two years about his struggles when he finally told me he had been a crack user all that time. Since I don't do addiction counseling, I referred him.

Women give feedback immediately. It's not that men are reluctant to do so, it's just that they don't think it important.

Because men are more results oriented, my time with them is far more effective. They take what they learn and apply it almost immediately.

Post: #20

(01-09-2016 01:24 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(01-09-2016 12:08 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Remember that book, Men Are From Mars Women are From Venus? The central theme of that book is that women don't want to have their problems solved. The author recommends you just listen to women complain but don't give them any advice on how to solve their problems. They just want to vent and be validated. Same as the OP observation.

So standard operating procedure for women among themselves is that when one woman tells a story, all the others sympathize with her, knowing she is full of shit, all with the knowledge that if any of the listeners ever wants to tell a bogus story that makes her feel better, that the others will automatically agree with her and support her.

It is a female quid pro quo, unspoken and understood by all women everywhere. That's why they can't understand it when men take a problem solving approach. To them if feels like they are being cheated.

Women want a hug box in response to what ever problem or issue they are having at the moment. Whenever I see a woman bringing up feeling bad about something in her life, whether it be to a real life friend or as a dramatic social media posting I noticed that any girls that response to the plea for help (really a plea for attention) will 95% of the time say stuff along the lines "You're perfectly fine girl!", "You just do you", "Feel better, you're so awesome that guy was just being an asshole" etc. The common themes I see are:

- It's never the girl's fault. It's always some external force whether it be a specific person or an organization or society at large.

- Things will always work out in the end. God/karma/the universe will always provide even without you lifting a finger.

- The girl is awesome/beautiful/sexy/strong/brave/intelligent and no one can tell her otherwise. She has all these traits without actually having to do anything to prove she possesses them.

- No actual advice about how to fix her current problem. On the occasion some advice is being given it has to be heavily sugar coated with the three points I described above. "Oh you're so smart and gorgeous hun. The universe will give you what you want no matter what that asshole guy said to you BUT hey did you think about try doing this instead..."

Post: #21

I agree, you can't take a group of "problem children"
and apply them to the whole class. In this case, women
who have decided to seek counseling for issues they are unable
to deal with emotionally.

I think you can listen without becoming an emotional pillow...that's the trap
you can fall into if you don't set ground rules...i.e never allow yourself to become
someone's girlfriend...her "bestie"...of bff...and then hope that she magically sees you as the stallion
she wants to sleep with...

I think that's also why women are drawn to men of action...I think the implied
task is when she gets emotional to listen and let her deal with it. Obvious exceptions
include times like grief, loss etc

If it's a "real" problem that requires you to take action she'll let you know...lol like a thousand times...

"Honey did you fix the sink?"
"Did you schedule the appointment"
"Remember that we need to be there by 11am"
"Did you pick up the tickets?"
etc etc...

Post: #22

(01-11-2016 09:05 AM)Heinrich von Geobbels Wrote:  

(01-09-2016 03:26 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  I'd find it a lot more believable and less biased if you had thrown in some positives about the female patients or negatives about the males, even if they were only slight positives or negatives.

I thought about your question for two days and mentally reviewed my experiences.

It takes a truly grounded and humble man to do that, especially when the criticism comes from someone like myself, a younger guy with zero experience in your field.

Much respect.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #23

(01-09-2016 12:08 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Remember that book, Men Are From Mars Women are From Venus? The central theme of that book is that women don't want to have their problems solved. The author recommends you just listen to women complain but don't give them any advice on how to solve their problems. They just want to vent and be validated. Same as the OP observation.

This is the male equivalent of "sit back and enjoy it".
It's quite

Lemme throw this out. Men neglect their emotional happiness. Men don't even understand the concept.

But having to listen to a broad go on and on and do nothing is more than just boredom. If being honest with her and communicating what you think and how you feel is basically going to get you into relationship hot water, so you stifle what is inside of you, that's emotional abuse.

It's just like the chick that's afraid to tell her abusive boyfriend that she accidentally dvr'd over his never watched MMA fights. She knows he's going to explode over some bullshit.

Lot of players don't realize the subtleties of manipulation, so regular guys are hopeless.

WIA

Post: #24

Meant to say, "It's quite self serving"

I often wonder if this is some grand cabal, or is the female gender always inching forward, little by little. Nudges here and there to make us do things.

WIA

(01-14-2016 09:59 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(01-09-2016 12:08 PM)Dusty Wrote:  Remember that book, Men Are From Mars Women are From Venus? The central theme of that book is that women don't want to have their problems solved. The author recommends you just listen to women complain but don't give them any advice on how to solve their problems. They just want to vent and be validated. Same as the OP observation.

This is the male equivalent of "sit back and enjoy it".
It's quite

Lemme throw this out. Men neglect their emotional happiness. Men don't even understand the concept.

But having to listen to a broad go on and on and do nothing is more than just boredom. If being honest with her and communicating what you think and how you feel is basically going to get you into relationship hot water, so you stifle what is inside of you, that's emotional abuse.

It's just like the chick that's afraid to tell her abusive boyfriend that she accidentally dvr'd over his never watched Firefly episodes. She knows he's going to explode over some bullshit.

Lot of players don't realize the subtleties of manipulation, so regular guys are hopeless.

WIA

Post: #25

One of the things i enjoy doing is frustrating women's machinations for emotional drama. Once i sniffed the actual intended purpose of a woman's actions using my infallible gut-check, i will immediately take actions to frustrate the hell of out it. I say *infallible* because when it comes to women, my gut-check is NEVER WRONG. Even when it is wrong it is still right.

I remember one time this female friend-of-a-friend tried to start a case of "let him and you fight over me" on social media between her ex-boyfriend and me. I instantly neutralized it by (1) befriending the guy and having interesting discussions with him, and (2) taking the extra-step of deleting the girl from my friend's list and completely blocking her from my social media.

The next time i saw her was at a friend's party. How did she react at the party?

As soon as she walked into the party she made a beeline for me and gave me a long, tight hug; and all night long through the party, she started acting as if she is soooo happy to see me.

I won't play your game, bitches.