Post: #26

youre a pimp. just do it

Post: #27

Wow, I got to say that I think this is the best thread I've seen on this forum in a while, lot's of truth being spit, esp. Athlone, URM, and Jersey. I think pretty much anyone that lurks/posts on these forums, who's in the beginner to intermediate stages should read this.

My take away points are, stop putting the pussy on the pedestal, we give way to much power to women, by worshiping them for their looks and sex, all the while inflating their egos and perceived worth, at the same time making us more nervous, awkward, and intimidated by them. Also, we are tying up too much of our own self worth, confidence, and self-esteem in obtaining them, (if we fail, don't get laid, get rejected, dumped, etc.) we feel like absolute shit. I know I am guilty of all these things.

I like how Athlone proposes that we focus on ourselves and our inner strength. Focus on bettering yourself is paramount, after a truly devestating relationship, where I have never felt so wronged, lied to, deceived, screwed over, (basically having my heart ripped out), I am now realizing that I need to work on myself to get to the level of inner strength, where something like that will never happen again.

I think URM, made some other valid points, about the type of women we involve ourselves with. This is important, because we have to know what we want out of a women, and have realistic expectations. If the girl is extremely wild sexually, and is a nymphomaniac, who likes to party and get wasted 4 nights a week, is she really LTR material, and someone you should trust, even if she tells you how much she loves you, never would do anything to hurt you, etc. I am struggling with the dilema of wanting to recreate those wild sexual experiences where anything goes and you have the most mind blowing orgasms (with a girl in most likelyhood 95% of the time is a ho, undercover or not) vs. wanting to meet a real down to earth, honest, trustworthy woman who has good values and morals and involve myself in a meaningful relationship. It's a hard balance to find in women, and based on my limited experience, I'm not entirely sure if you can have the best of both worlds.

Finally, as I believe Jersey and the G man are saying, you must put in work to improve and experience results. You may fail and fail miserably, hundreds of times, but if you do not try then you will never succeed. Sure all of us, even the less attractive ones, eventually have the stars align and have a girl were feeling make herself available to us and her interest obvious, but for most of us we have to do the work 90% of the time to get the girl we want. Therefore, we have to try, there is no way around it. Failure is inevitable. The point, is how you grow and learn from that failure. If you learn to not let it faze you and to ultimately not give a fuck, and let it roll straight off your shoulders like nothing, that's where you achieve a zen like state. This is much easier said than done, because a lot of us, have had a life full of stinging rejections, and have for too long placed too much value on women and our success with them. Like G says, you got to reach that state where you realize that it's not a big deal, because you are a valuable person, and ultimately it's there loss. I'm not trying to keyboard jockey here, but it's like I have a great understanding of these things, but unfortunately I have a hard time internalizing it and making it my reality. Maybe within due time.

Final thought, since hitting some really hard times, and low points in my life, I am realizing that I need to fill my head with more knowledge. I have just ordered 9 books on amazon, with plans for more, one that I read 8 years ago that I plan on re-reading as soon as I get it, is "The 4 Agreements", it's really short and to the point, but offers great advice and wisdom, I recommend it to everyone to read.

Post: #28

(07-01-2011 06:26 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  What I don't see is any justification for men to a) try to change the core of their very being and shift who they are or b) put themselves through an emotional grinder for the sake of one piece of ass (read: "approach 900 random women, get 5 lays!").

They are not worth the effort that the vast majority of men in the US (and especially in many a PUA community) seem willing to put in for them.

Interesting that you wrote that as I think the same way too. Think of it: every time an average chick is going out she is being approached in a bar by five different dudes just because they feel the need to "practice" an approach. Of course she doesn't know she is just a practice target, so she assumes all those dudes are hitting on her because she is "hawt". As a result, her ego goes through the roof. Then the same dudes complain about ugly average chick having attitude and thinking too high of themselves.

This is one of the reasons why I find the "not approaching" strategy working much better. It generally comes from the European background - approaches are much rarer in Europe, and therefore more valuable. And it may be preferable for someone for whom the pussy is a low priority, something fun pursuing but definitely not something their life spins around. It works better because you waste less time on useless tasks.

Quote:When speaking of American women, the fact of the matter is that they provide a very poor Return on Investment. Nitpicking the facts and trying to separate them into a million little groups will not change that.

In Russia/EE most chicks are good-looking, and some have good relationship value. America was the first country I've been to when the majority of the chicks both look average or below average AND have zero relationship value. At the same time they make good single-use sex toys, much better in terms of effort spent comparing to Russian/EE chick.

Quote:You enjoy finding your needle in a haystack.

Indeed.
Different cultures have different prevalent qualities among the population.
It is possible to find the cute chicks which are open to same night lays in Romania. They do exist, but there are very few them, and generally going to Romania for that would not be time well spent.
Same way it is possible to find the chicks in the USA which are relationship quality and at the same time not ugly as hell. They do exist, but there are very few them, and that would not be time well spent. I don't know a single guy who traveled to the USA with intent to find a local girl here and get married to her, and EE is full of such cases.

Post: #29

This thread is too good, I know there are no stickies in the forum but I feel like there should be an exception for this at least for a while.

Post: #30

It's hard man. I start feeling like shit when I get rejected over and over. Just take a deep breath and remember its only pussy. You have to get it in your head its their loss if they don't want you.

Post: #31

(07-01-2011 05:07 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(07-01-2011 04:42 AM)pitt Wrote:  I am sorry but dont listen to Athlone if you are looking to sleep around a lot. You really have to approach a lot and fail miserably in order to have success in the future. Athlone perspective is more if you are looking to settle down with someone you "love", if you are looking to be a player, thats not the way to go, players are very outgoing people.

This is why you will always have problems-outcome dependence. You tie everything down as a strategy to get women.

What I said has nothing to do with "looking to settle down with someone you "love"". If you'd bothered to read the damn forum for more than a minute, you'd know I wholeheartedly recommend against that for any American man.

My strategy is designed for the self. Not for society, not for your parents, and ESPECIALLY not for girls, but for you. I thought I'd made that clear, but you found a way to interpret it as something else anyhow.
Until you can divorce your sense of direction and self worth from your unending, desperate pursuit of tits and ass, then you'll have issues.

(07-01-2011 11:21 AM)Selva Wrote:  The only thing I would add to this is get yourself a fuckbuddy or girlfriend and leverage her into other girls. Simply knowing that regardless of the outcome of any approach you are going to get laid takes away a lot of pressure you might put on yourself and lets you be comfortable in your interactions. A woman knows when a guy has options and she will make it so that she is one of the options.

Don't waste your time-just go and get an escort.

Same effect, less effort.

(07-01-2011 12:30 PM)Jersey Wrote:  The problem is that for most people starting out, it's really hard to find the value in themselves because they haven't seen it yet. The fastest way to see your own value is to start approaching. Because what will happen is that you will start running into girls who see your value and it will be reflective in their behavior.

Once again-women will never build you up. Only you can do that.

If you can't find some basic respect and value for yourself, don't expect women to do it for you. They cannot be relied upon because they do not care, and they never will.
Tying your self worth to their perceptions of you (this is exactly what you are suggesting) is not a winning strategy.

(07-01-2011 03:45 PM)Urban Renaissance Man Wrote:  Very good points and very true, but I feel it's a combination of the two. Working on and loving yourself, as well as putting yourself in situations where you can practice approach, lose the irrational fear of the opposite sex and desensitize yourself to rejection.

I ran game for a while as a freshman, and I've gotten used to rejection as a result. This is on top of the many, many others I experienced as a kid.

I didn't need to learn a bunch of routines and approach 100 random women on a street in a set period of time to learn about rejection.

Quote:While we shouldn't put women on pedestals, we can't totally rule out their importance. I pretty much attribute every school shooting and most male suicides to a boy/man who either couldn't get laid, couldn't get a girlfriend, couldn't get over his ex, couldn't find a female to replace his ex. Those are the extreme cases. We don't even need to mention the lonely nights, depression, time off work, etc. that millions of guys all over the world go thru when they're having girl troubles!

None of this has anything to do with the intrinsic worth/value of women. It has everything to do with male perception of their value, which is inflated.

Quote:Normal, straight men must have female companionship at least from time to time. The more skills a man can develope to make attracting women easier, the better his overall lives will be.

The more you can learn to live without them, the better off you will be.

Athlone lets have a healthy discussion, no need to throw indirect shots

Anyway, i probably agree with few things that you said but in my humble opinion you found a way to protect yourself for failing at gaming and i guess it worked for you but it is not the best option.

Anybody that truly sleeps around with a high number of women will tell you that their lives became better, no wonder why many of us on here enjoy travelling and just sleep around with a high number of women.

Guys with comments such as "if she doesnt want to fuck me its her loss, its only pussy, who cares" and adopting other ways to ignore pussy, are finding other sources that will substitute their lack of game. It is like wanting to become rich and finding out difficult to do so and you decide to choose to live a normal life and you put in your mind that what matters is having enough money to pay the bills. Don't get me wrong, i dont think everybody should try to get rich or whatever, but if you have a goal and then change afterwards and you decide to live an average life when you could do much better, you are a sucker in my opinion.

The secret is to be persistent .If you ever had a fitness personal trainer, you would understand how they hate people that give up and they know that your improvement becomes slower when you give up work outs or you start finding excuses for your lack of effectiveness, such as "i will do this tomorrow" or "i dont really need to do 100 press ups in order to gain strength, i can just do 20", LAME EXCUSES.

I advise people that are not doing that great with women to change their strategy or approach, no doubt that athlone is right by saying to work on your inner game and expose value, but this game requires lots of applying and testing, and you cant do that by just looking good or having a great personality, you have to approach and approach like crazy in order to truly succeed.

Post: #32

(07-01-2011 07:52 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(07-01-2011 07:04 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Do you know why they call it the "game"?

Because it's exactly like a game. And if you want to be good at a game, you have to practice it. The more you play, the better a player you become.

You've not proven that the game is worth playing, and thus you've done nothing to actually challenge my argument.

You're insisting that the investment be made, but you've not shown that the returns will justify it. Can you do that?

I don't have to prove to you anything. If you want to be a celibate monk, be my guest. If you want to be hooker connoisseur, knock yourself out. Every man needs to decide these things for himself.

But this forum is about getting laid with civilian girls, something most guys want. People who come here have the assumption that having girls like you enough to fuck you is an unconditional good in itself, hence the title of the girls forum, "Anything related to getting girls in the sack. Complements my blog and my pick-up guide Bang." If you want the pussy, learn the game.

And if you don't enjoy the game, maybe you shouldn't do it. I personally love it.

Otherwise, the onus is on you to prove to guys here that if they want more pussy they should do something else besides approach women, when in fact all the top players here are very good at approaching. The advice "keep approaching" doesn't come from nowhere.

Quote:So start doing those approaches, son.

No thanks.
[/quote]

enjoy your masturbation and hookers.


You also make a false dichotomy,

"Either you improve yourself"

OR

"Improve your game"


When in fact it's very easy to do both. So start doing those approaches, son.

Post: #33

(07-02-2011 09:40 AM)Samseau Wrote:  "Either you improve yourself"

OR

"Improve your game"

When in fact it's very easy to do both.

I say this all the time, but life isn't a zero-sum game. It isn't "either/or", it's "and."

Post: #34

I joined the military at 18. Before I was introverted, shy, and didn't have much in the way of friends. The Corps boosted my confidence exponentially, put some muscle on my skinny ass, and allowed me to see the world. Now I'm extroverted, and will approach ANYONE for a conversation.

Basically it was a choice. Either be "that guy" that sits at the end of the airport bar and doesn't speak to anyone, or "the guy" that walks in with swag, goes into a comic rant to the barkeep, and has people sitting down next to him to be part of the "clique".


Don't worry about "game". Work on yourself and girls will approach you.

Post: #35

(07-01-2011 10:24 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  Interesting that you wrote that as I think the same way too. Think of it: every time an average chick is going out she is being approached in a bar by five different dudes just because they feel the need to "practice" an approach. Of course she doesn't know she is just a practice target, so she assumes all those dudes are hitting on her because she is "hawt". As a result, her ego goes through the roof. Then the same dudes complain about ugly average chick having attitude and thinking too high of themselves.

This is one of the reasons why I find the "not approaching" strategy working much better. It generally comes from the European background - approaches are much rarer in Europe, and therefore more valuable. And it may be preferable for someone for whom the pussy is a low priority, something fun pursuing but definitely not something their life spins around. It works better because you waste less time on useless tasks.

Come on really? A handful of people aren't going to change the way the women of the world think by approaching less. This may work in areas where this is already true, but changing your strategy in a place like the US seems a bit pointless to me.

Game is still a numbers game no matter how you look at it, approaching is necessary. That's not to say everyone should go out there and wildly cold approach every woman they can see, but hopefully you get my point.

Quote:"Either you improve yourself"

OR

"Improve your game"

What most people are missing is these two are one and the same.

Post: #36

I don't put women on a pedestal, but my solution to that wasn't to go the absolute reverse and downplay their importance in my life.

I love women and the way dominating them, pleasing them and being loved and pleased by them makes me feel. There's no denying that, it is a big part of what makes my life worth living and if I am honest, the ultimate driving force behind a lot of what I do.

But that doesn't mean I put individual women on a pedestal. Not all women are good in bed, even if they are attractive, and not all women who are good in bed are interesting or affectionate enough to be worth your time. Few women appreciate men the way we appreciate women and I don't believe there can be real chemistry without both being present in any kind of relationship.

I am not after a quick fuck but the entire experience of a female and everything it brings, but realistically few women can deliver that. I don't just want her to desire me sexually, but to admire me, respect me, be besotted by me, taken by me, submit to me, worship me, be fascinated by me. It takes a strong, intelligent and thoughtful woman to be able to do all those things, not just any old club rat.

Most women, like men, are dull monotonous drones with little interest outside of drinking and dancing and 75% of their lives are spent working some dead end job they hate.

Some women have the potential to deliver the experience you want only with your help unlocking it. An even smaller minority will seek you out and give it to you. Either way, if you're the right kind of guy and she's the right kind of girl then you're both going to have a lot of all kinds of fun.

So yeah I agree not to put women on a pedestal, but be honest to yourself about your needs and desires, they are as intrinsic to being a man as it gets and if we refuse to acknowledge that then we tend to resort to bitterness, objectification and misogyny.

Post: #37

You guys are acting like game and self-improvement are mutually exclusive -- news flash, they aren't. They are one and the same.

(07-01-2011 04:27 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  True confidence will never derive simply from a man's attempts to interact with women, nevermind their consistent rejections of him. Women will never build you up-only you can do that.

Agreed. I understand the point you're coming from Athlone (I assume you've seen the Blueprint) and I agree, but you seem to be putting your argument on it's on pedestal.

I see two ways to achieve success with women:

1) Approach a lot of women. Realize you are confident.

2) Realize you are confident. Then approach a lot of women.

Approaching women is an undeniable catalyst to self-improvement. Men inherently put weight onto their success with women as a determinant of their self-worth. This is why the advice to "go and approach 1000 women" is so popular. It forces you to realize that you are confident, as well as improving social skills and situational-confidence when dealing with women.

This is something you can get past, a spiritual realization if you will, but it is something that most men do not achieve (or even want to, in fact).

---

Athlone, you must realize that sometimes women are the area where men want to improve themselves not just to get laid. Just like you may want to become a better guitarist or a person of better character, you may also want to just become better with women. I see no harm in this.

The harm comes from drawing confidence externally (something you must be aware of). Deriving your sense of worth based on your success/failures with women is insanity. You wouldn't judge your sense of self based on how well you could shred on a guitar would you?

No, you need to realize you are a person of value. Every person has value whether or not they realize it. That is the gift of life. You don't need to "DHV" or have money or be some fuckin celebrity to have value. If you can make a girl smile you brought value into this world -- even if she rejects you. Smile back and move on.

---

On another note, I would like to reiterate what some people have said. Social skills are just that -- skills. You're not born a concert-level pianist. Mozart began playing piano when he was 4 years old and his father was an important violinist in that time. Over time, Mozarts skills on piano became amazing. I would be hesitant to call him a prodigy. He is a product of hard work.

Same thing with social skills. If you want to sharpen your skills then you have to approach, talk to people, and be sociable aka practice it.

But, just like learning guitar, your sense of self should be disconnected from the outcomes here.

I doubt professional jugglers beat themselves up over a dropped ball.

Post: #38

On the issue of building social skills and being personable, not all "personable personas" are equal - some are the goofy guy you can rely on for a laugh, others are the hyper party guy that can pull girls but don't display any depth or machismo, others are the smouldering charismatic types that are easy to talk to but command respect.

I don't know about you guys but I am working on the latter, and I imagine it is harder than simply being the affable stooge, and even the hyper party guy.

Post: #39

[quote='Urban Renaissance Man: Still, I can't blame all women for that. My choice in women plays some part. I could've gone for the nice church girl. Instead, I liked the cute bi girl, who's a lot of fun and good in bed. Not saying you've necessarily done this, but a lot of us guys get into relationships with women WE KNOW we have no business with, (Because they're cute, naughty, available, the only girl around who likes us, etc.) and then we blame all of womankind when this obvious undercover slut (sometimes not so undercover) cheats on us or breaks our heart in some other way! [/quote]

What does this have to do with anything?

[/quote

What it has to do with it is that some of the problems I and undoubtably others on this board have had with women is a product partly of our own design. I'm well aware of the problems with american women. The thug love/bad boy fetish crap by itself is enough to make me want to go look elsewhere. The fact that many american women nowadays can cheat on their husbands and not even there mother will condemn them is another issue that makes me want to save up to travel! At the same time, I'm not going to pretend that my poor choices didn't have something to do with The drama I've experienced in my life, and you shouldn't either. If we don't change certain decision making processes, many of our same issues will follow us overseas!

clearly, you are an intelligent young man. However, some things can only be fully realized through wisdom and experience, both of which a 20 year old can only have in limited supply. This is by no means a slam to you, this is a fact.

Post: #40

I am not American but British, and I am 23, but I appreciate I have a lot less experience with women than most of you guys.

That said in my experience so far I can tell you that Britain is much the same as the US, cheating is absolutely rife and there is little to no sense of guilt amongst most girls (probably guys too) that do it, they just tell themselves "oh well I was too young to commit anyway" and instantly absolve themselves of guilt. It's pretty bad, even though there are lots of exceptions.

This shouldn't shake anyone's confidence when it comes to ONS and FWB though right? But it is always a concern these days when it comes to a LTR with someone under the age of about... 30 lmao.

Post: #41

(07-02-2011 10:16 AM)Gmac Wrote:  Come on really? A handful of people aren't going to change the way the women of the world think by approaching less. This may work in areas where this is already true, but changing your strategy in a place like the US seems a bit pointless to me.

You missed the point. It is not about them. It is about me. Approach is something I put effort in, and vast majority of the girls here in US are simply not worth this kind of effort.

The nearest analogy would be an attractive 45yo MILF. If she approaches me, I'd fuck her. But at the same time I'm not going to approach her, and I'm not going to game her. I have higher value than her, it is her job to approach and game me. If she doesn't, I won't give a fuck. This is how I feel - and behave - toward the vast majority of American chicks.

Of course it also helps that I am married to a beautiful wife, so I'm not sex-hungry and the pussy per se has a much lower value to me than to a lot of people around. And of course I try different tactics, but so far this one provided better results while matching my personality and the environment here in US. Probably this is not the best one, and I'll change to something else in a year or two, but so far I don't see any reasons to evolve.

Quote:Game is still a numbers game no matter how you look at it, approaching is necessary. That's not to say everyone should go out there and wildly cold approach every woman they can see, but hopefully you get my point.

It depends on your goals. If you want to get better at approaches, then it is necessary. If you are a very social dude and enjoy small conversations with strangers, then doing many approaches would be comfortable for you while increasing your chance to get laid. However it is definitely not one-size-fits-all.

Quote:"Either you improve yourself"
OR
"Improve your game"

What most people are missing is these two are one and the same.
[/quote]

What most people are missing is that they think there is only one game. It is not. For example, Mystery Method (described by Savoy in "Magic Bullets"; "bang" is close to it) is very different from BadBoy's Lifestyle. The second one feels completely natural to me, while the first one feels very unnatural and more like performance. And I'd guess it would be the opposite for those who grew up in US.

Post: #42

(07-02-2011 09:49 AM)Selva Wrote:  I say this all the time, but life isn't a zero-sum game. It isn't "either/or", it's "and."

I just read the comments on Roosh's post about the myth of naturals and I saw that Speakeasy made almost the exact same comment. I guess great minds think alike

Post: #43

(07-02-2011 10:41 AM)Anonybrit Wrote:  I don't put women on a pedestal, but my solution to that wasn't to go the absolute reverse and downplay their importance in my life.

I love women and the way dominating them, pleasing them and being loved and pleased by them makes me feel. There's no denying that, it is a big part of what makes my life worth living and if I am honest, the ultimate driving force behind a lot of what I do.

But that doesn't mean I put individual women on a pedestal. Not all women are good in bed, even if they are attractive, and not all women who are good in bed are interesting or affectionate enough to be worth your time. Few women appreciate men the way we appreciate women and I don't believe there can be real chemistry without both being present in any kind of relationship.

I am not after a quick fuck but the entire experience of a female and everything it brings, but realistically few women can deliver that. I don't just want her to desire me sexually, but to admire me, respect me, be besotted by me, taken by me, submit to me, worship me, be fascinated by me. It takes a strong, intelligent and thoughtful woman to be able to do all those things, not just any old club rat.

Most women, like men, are dull monotonous drones with little interest outside of drinking and dancing and 75% of their lives are spent working some dead end job they hate.

Some women have the potential to deliver the experience you want only with your help unlocking it. An even smaller minority will seek you out and give it to you. Either way, if you're the right kind of guy and she's the right kind of girl then you're both going to have a lot of all kinds of fun.

So yeah I agree not to put women on a pedestal, but be honest to yourself about your needs and desires, they are as intrinsic to being a man as it gets and if we refuse to acknowledge that then we tend to resort to bitterness, objectification and misogyny.

Beautifully put, Anonybrit. I agree 100% with everything you said.

Post: #44

(07-02-2011 05:27 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(07-02-2011 10:16 AM)Gmac Wrote:  Game is still a numbers game no matter how you look at it, approaching is necessary. That's not to say everyone should go out there and wildly cold approach every woman they can see, but hopefully you get my point.

It depends on your goals. If you want to get better at approaches, then it is necessary. If you are a very social dude and enjoy small conversations with strangers, then doing many approaches would be comfortable for you while increasing your chance to get laid. However it is definitely not one-size-fits-all.

The point of game is to get better with women in order to sleep with them, not to hold their hand or have comfortable conversations with them. It could be with one, it could be with a million, but it's still completely goal independent. No one is trying to just get better at approaches, so let's not beat around the bush as to why we are all here. Sure, you can apply the concepts of game to different aspects of your life... but then you aren't talking about just game anymore. I'll concede to a point... as all definitions of game relate to developing the ability and mindset to become good with the opposite sex.

Quote:

Quote:"Either you improve yourself"
OR
"Improve your game"

What most people are missing is these two are one and the same.

Quote:What most people are missing is that they think there is only one game. It is not. For example, Mystery Method (described by Savoy in "Magic Bullets"; "bang" is close to it) is very different from BadBoy's Lifestyle. The second one feels completely natural to me, while the first one feels very unnatural and more like performance. And I'd guess it would be the opposite for those who grew up in US.

We're not talking apples and oranges. I don't understand why you are making this so complicated when it's very clear. Game is still game.

Post: #45

(07-02-2011 07:31 AM)pitt Wrote:  Anyway, i probably agree with few things that you said but in my humble opinion you found a way to protect yourself for failing at gaming and i guess it worked for you but it is not the best option.

This is typical shaming language, but I will respond in any case.

I did "fail at gaming"(at least, gaming as specifically defined by yourself). Do you know why?

Here are the lessons I learned that have led me to my current conclusions:

1. Pedestalization. I assumed(like you do) that the women I was trying to get were inherently worth the inordinate amount of effort I was willing to invest (approaching/getting shot down a lot, running/learning new routines, finding alcohol/weed, getting wasted for liquid courage, shifting personality to be more outgoing, dozens of hours on weekends in frats, etc), when in actuality there was no evidence to justify any of that. With such a mentality comes a tinge of neediness easily sensed by women, usually leading to general failure. I was putting an exorbitant price on the pussy and overestimating its actual value to me.

I was willing to sacrifice my grades, my health, and my own personal integrity for the sake of approaching women and running game-in other words, I cared too much. Women are very good at sensing men who don't understand this, which is why any man trying to run the "Approach 900 women and learn the hard way!" strategy will have a success rate very close to zero.

American women respond best to the men who invest the least. They respond best to men who could give a damn. Men who tie too much of their own self worth into their approaches/relations with women generally don't do very well for this reason.

I don't make anywhere near the investment I once did in time and effort, and I care far less about the outcome now. I am also much better off.

2. Authenticity. Instead of investing in myself, I tried to be someone else, the type of person who would be comfortable approaching [insert large number here] random women daily. I'm not a social retard, but I am an introvert-that isn't me.

When I quit doing these two things and began taking the advice I offer here(invest in yourself, stop overvaluing women), I was a) much happier and b) far more successful with women. My Return on Investment is much, MUCH greater than it was before. Now, instead of pouring much of my heart and soul into women and gaming the way I once did, I simply go and do things that I actually enjoy without giving much thought to how it relates to women. As a result, I am more content and, ironically, quite a bit more attractive than I was before.

You could argue that, because I did have to run game, approach, and get shot down a lot in order to learn these two hard lessons, that I am proving your point("you've still gotta get out there on the front lines to improve!"), and maybe you'd be right.

I am simply speaking as someone who has already figured it out.

Quote:Guys with comments such as "if she doesnt want to fuck me its her loss, its only pussy, who cares" and adopting other ways to ignore pussy, are finding other sources that will substitute their lack of game.

Or maybe they've actually figured out that these women really aren't worth the inordinate effort being put in by so many men, and that there are other more worthwhile things that can be pursued? Are they wrong about that?

Your entire argument is based on the presumption that these women are inherently worthwhile (which is why you go on to compare learning game to moneymaking and fitness). You've not yet shown that "the goal" is actually worth it, and if you actually want to have a legitimate argument you'll need to do that.

Like I already said to Samseau: You're insisting that the investment be made, but you've not shown that the returns will justify it. Can you do that?

Quote: but if you have a goal and then change afterwards and you decide to live an average life when you could do much better, you are a sucker in my opinion.

Another presumption (with a healthy does of shaming thrown in): who says that agreeing not to invest a lot of effort into women who haven't shown they are worth it dooms you to an average life? Where is the evidence that making that investment makes you "much better"?

Post: #46

(07-02-2011 09:40 AM)Samseau Wrote:  I don't have to prove to you anything. If you want to be a celibate monk, be my guest. If you want to be hooker connoisseur, knock yourself out. Every man needs to decide these things for himself.

Translation: I am unable to respond to your request and logically justify my own position, so I will resort to shaming language instead.

Fair enough. No need to keep talking, then.

Post: #47

Not trying to pick a fight with you or anything by the way, OldNemesis.

Post: #48

(07-02-2011 08:35 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(07-02-2011 09:40 AM)Samseau Wrote:  I don't have to prove to you anything. If you want to be a celibate monk, be my guest. If you want to be hooker connoisseur, knock yourself out. Every man needs to decide these things for himself.

Translation: I am unable to respond to your request and logically justify my own position, so I will resort to shaming language instead.

Fair enough. No need to keep talking, then.

You did not quote any shaming tactics. I was directly responding to your claim that I needed to "prove" to you why you should approach girls, when in fact I don't need to prove shit.

But your attempt to call me a shamer is itself a form of shaming; a "holier-than-thou" attitude.


by the way, there were at least three other people who quoted my post of "shaming" tactics so obviously it wasn't completely devoid of logic

Post: #49

Lots of great advice already but what works for me is simply to not give a fuck and keep myself entertained. Priority #1 when I go out is to have fun and I act like girls are silly little creatures put here for my amusement. A lot of the approaches I do are because I'm bored and want to have some fun. If you're having a good time instead of being invested in the outcome of your approaches, then you'll project an air of indifference and people will want to share in your positive vibe.

Post: #50

approaches...and learning to deal with rejection. once this is done its easier to not give a fuck