Post: #1

Following on the heels of The Male Brain's thread about Three kinds of stupidity, here :

/thread-52492...pid1177363

I'm posting Will Durant's list of the Greatest Thinkers of All Time.

Durant is one of the premier historians and writers of the 20th century and has many books ranging from history to philosophy.

I had a long road trip this holiday and listened to part of the audio book. Some historical greats that many people would think would be on the list, such as Socrates, Da Vinci, Caesar or Nietzsche for example, are not.

Durant's explanations of why he includes who he does and why he excludes others, are very sound and make sense.

He excludes artists, inventors and military geniuses and instead focuses on philosophers and thinkers whose ideas changed the way their contemporaries and subsequent generations looked at the world. In addition, his greatest thinkers made substantial, often revolutionary contributions to civilization and our understanding of human nature, logic, science and reality in general.

Durant's 10 Greatest Thinkers:

1. Confucius

2. Plato

3. Aristotle

4. St. Thomas Aquinas

5. Copernicus

6. Sir Francis Bacon

7. Sir Isaac Newton

8. Voltaire

9. Immanuel Kant

10. Charles Darwin


A link with more detailed explanations:

https://theumiverse.wordpress.com/2015/0...ll-durant/

Post: #2

Mystery should be in the top 50 at least. Personally for me Darwin should be number 1.

Post: #3

(12-24-2015 10:36 PM)Pride male Wrote:  Mystery should be in the top 50 at least. Personally for me Darwin should be number 1.

lol at mystery. FYI he didn't invent sex. People were getting laid before him.

Post: #4

The Mystery Method saved my life.

Post: #5

(12-24-2015 10:36 PM)Pride male Wrote:  Mystery should be in the top 50 at least. Personally for me Darwin should be number 1.

It seems the list is in chronological order from the earliest born.

I thought Einstein should be on it.

Post: #6

A few notes:

1. As is almost always the case with this type of list, 'ancient' thinkers are way overrated. Plato's influence might be great but, IMO, his 'greatness' is compromised by the fact that his metaphysical theory is obviously wrong.

2. The rationale for putting Confucius at #1 is weird. The fact that a lot of people live by his teachings? If that's all it takes to be a 'great thinker,' you might as well put Jesus or Mohammed on the list. Again, his standard here obviously isn't the quality of the thinker's thought but some vague notion of 'influence.'

3. The top 10 is conspicuously missing a lot of names that should be there: Einstein, Nietzsche, Freud, etc.

4. This is a very 'Anglo' list. Among the non-Greek thinkers in the top 10, brits are hugely overrepresented (1 each for France, Germany and China, 3 for Britain). This is not an accident. If you know anything about English-speaking intellectuals they're obsessed with promoting their 'great thinkers,' and ranking them as the best. There are some clear symptoms of this phenomenon on Durant's list: Newton above Einstein, Bacon in the top 10 (he's massively overrated), etc.

Post: #7

(12-24-2015 06:23 PM)robreke Wrote:  He excludes artists, inventors and military geniuses and instead focuses on philosophers and thinkers whose ideas changed the way their contemporaries and subsequent generations looked at the world.

I've been listening to the audiobook on YouTube, and I like how he goes into naming the 10 greatest poets anyways after his 10 greatest thinkers list. Had something to get off your chest there huh

In seriousness, I was holding my breath for Karl Marx to appear, what with his influence on the weak overcoming the strong and social justice today (as I understand). He didn't.

Additionally, Confucius and Plato were pretty much contemporary, and while both had similar dreams of an ideal government, in that light, one of the two seems redundant, perhaps Confucius. Especially when much of this world was built by Western civilization.

Post: #8

(12-27-2015 06:33 PM)The Man w/ the Golden Gun Wrote:  

(12-24-2015 06:23 PM)robreke Wrote:  He excludes artists, inventors and military geniuses and instead focuses on philosophers and thinkers whose ideas changed the way their contemporaries and subsequent generations looked at the world.

I've been listening to the audiobook on YouTube, and I like how he goes into naming the 10 greatest poets anyways after his 10 greatest thinkers list. Had something to get off your chest there huh

In seriousness, I was holding my breath for Karl Marx to appear, what with his influence on the weak overcoming the strong and social justice today (as I understand). He didn't.

Additionally, Confucius and Plato were pretty much contemporary, and while both had similar dreams of an ideal government, in that light, one of the two seems redundant, perhaps Confucius. Especially when much of this world was built by Western civilization.

According to Durant, Confucius was the first , or at least the first well known, philosopher/ thinker to espouse morality and leadership and the good of the society in a hierarchical and structured way. He espoused making sure that the individual and his soul and mind were in order first, then the order of his family and household, then the order of his own affairs. Only if these things were taken care of first in this order, according to Confucius, could the leader or king be prepared to lead effectively and ensure that the society and government he looked over would be in good and right order. For this main reason, Durant lists him as a great thinker.

As for Marx, I agree that his ideas have shaped much of society and history. Marx was a fan of Darwin and wrote that Darwin's writings seemed to support his own ideas of class struggle. Darwin is on the list.

Marx strikes me as an intelligent academic wrapped up so much in his ideas and theory that he neglects, or never really knew, true human nature and what motivates people and how people in society and groups behave. He's like a present-day think tank pointy headed professor up in some ivory tower thinking that his theories and the papers that he writes should be the way the world works. The Communist Manifesto is almost laughably naive.

Post: #9

Davinci
Plato
Newton
Confucius
Einstein
Darwin
Bacon

The rest

Post: #10

Plato was a very prominent philosopher and nobody can argue that, but he was mostly Socrates disciple (which in my opinion should be on top of the list)

Post: #11

We know of Socrates mostly through Plato and his interpretations of the teachings. List seems pretty heavy on philosophy and light on "harder" sciences. To paraphrase a judge for a "greatest inventions" list I once read, "I could do without the Platonic dialogues, but I'd really miss that anesthesia when they cut into my leg if somebody hadn't decided to play around with the ether once upon a time".

History has certainly not been kind to Plato's hypothesis of virtue being its own reward, but it's hard to argue with the theory of relativity or the double helix.

Post: #12

Not that I'm a fan, yet I'm a touch surprised Nietzsche isn't listed.
If nothing else, he did have a different perspective.

Post: #13

The Buddha, Karl Marx

Post: #14

I submit my own name for consideration. In all humility, of course.

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Rudyard Kipling

Post: #15

I'll say uncle Roosh.

Post: #16

(01-03-2016 09:49 PM)mauro000 Wrote:  Plato was a very prominent philosopher and nobody can argue that, but he was mostly Socrates disciple (which in my opinion should be on top of the list)

Durant addresses this in his book. He writes that while Socrates was surely very wise, many of the quotes attributed to Socrates come from him being a "character" in Plato's books.

In his "The Republic" and other books, Plato uses Socrates as the protagonist making arguments. These works of Plato are one of the reasons Socrates has become such pillar in philosophy.

So, we know for sure these works are Plato's as he wrote them. We're not sure Socrates said all these things but are only saying them through Plato's writings. Hence, Plato is a greater thinker.

I recommend listening to the audio book on youtube.

Post: #17

(01-04-2016 11:28 AM)Traktor Wrote:  The Buddha, Karl Marx

Buddha maybe.

I don't see it with Marx. Regarding the Communist manifesto, while I follow his line of reasoning, that book is highly naive to anyone who has a good understanding of human nature.

Reading the CM is like reading the work of someone who was in insolation with a bunch of academic egg heads most of his life and never spent much time around normal people in society nor having an understanding of what motivates business, growth or even people in general. One listen to it and I understood why communism / socialism never worked anywhere it's been tried.

Another reason Marx shouldn't be a great: (bears repeating) His invention : Communism/ socialism never has worked anywhere it's been tried. It doesn't square with the reality of human nature.

The writings and thoughts of Durant's "Greatest Minds" have the ring of truth to them. There is true wisdom in them and they square with how reality actually is.

He does acknowledge many others too that he seems pained to have left off the list.

Here's the audio book:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU8M128s4vU

Post: #18

Schopenhauer?

Post: #19

Machiavelli? Petrarch? Fitzgerald? Reagan? Hobbes? Luther?