Post: #1

Summary

Everyone knows the middle class is getting screwed through college debt, bad work environment, marriage, feminism, etc.

But what about the daily annoyances that stack up?

In the past, when you were middle class, society as a whole supported you.

But now, you're like a bitch. Everything is set up to keep you down.

When you go to the store, you're treated like you're nothing. When you need customer service from companies, they have no problems wasting your time and energy, because in the end, they want to get rid of you. When you file your taxes, the government is against you.

So, why do people just sit there and do nothing. It's a lot easier to change the little things like telling an employee to wise up, than to change big things like marital laws. Telling a government employee you will talk to their boss and actually do it is something that must not happen often.

Post: #2

I lasted 17 seconds with that accent. He's saying companies have bad customer service?

Post: #3

Quote:When you go to the store, you're treated like you're nothing. When you need customer service from companies, they have no problems wasting your time and energy, because in the end, they want to get rid of you. When you file your taxes, the government is against you.

I don't recognize this world. Not saying it doesn't happen to people (or to OP), but what is this about? As but one example, I don't go to stores where I'm treated like shit (what kind of store is that anyway? Walmart? Dollar Store?), and for most ordinary stuff I use Amazon, which has amazing customer service.

Post: #4

(12-15-2015 12:13 PM)Menace Wrote:  I don't recognize this world. Not saying it doesn't happen to people (or to OP), but what is this about? As but one example, I don't go to stores where I'm treated like shit (what kind of store is that anyway? Walmart? Dollar Store?), and for most ordinary stuff I use Amazon, which has amazing customer service.

Customer service, it's all the little details...

- You buy something and it's broken... now you gotta drive back to the store, waste 30 min round trip, then when you get there you need to argue with them. They try to not refund you.
- When you call and wait 30 minutes, then line gets disconnected.
- When you change internet companies, they want you to mail them their modem. Come fucking pick it up.
- So many more

Government :

They just have too much power. I read an article a few years ago that was talking about a recent law that was passed in the US to help catch money launderers.

So they allowed the gov. to seize any bank account of any citizens who deposited money just under the allowed daily limit, something money launders did to avoid getting detected.

Of course, how many innocent business people do you think they wrongfully seized? So, many people were running their business, then one day their bank account was frozen which stopped them from accessing their money. They had to shut down their business and fight the government.

Even after the government acknowledged they made a mistake, they held on the money as long as possible, and in the end, they negociated with the honest citizens to give only a portion of the money back, even though they were 100% innocent.

Post: #5

It was ever thus. The middle class was always small and fleeting in most societies, and it's disappearing rapidly in ours. Some things that have changed in the last decade:

- Disappearing full time jobs: Companies are in full cost-cutting mode. They're cutting the traditional full time jobs, and either offshoring their workforce, or replacing the workforce with H1B immigrant workers for much less. This is the big push behind immigration reform.

- Desperation of salaried workers: The full time jobs that remain are often salaried positions, and workers are often expected to work long, 80+ hour workweeks. Companies know that full time jobs are rare, so they increasingly treat their employees like expendable slave labor.

- Inflation of Student Loans: The FED dropping the fed funds rate to 0% has raised asset prices across the board. The cost of education is now at all time highs. Students graduate college into one of the most brutal job markets the country has ever seen. Student loan debt isn't dischargeable in bankruptcy except for the most extreme circumstances, preventing price discovery. Student loan debt continues to climb, and college graduates are modern debt serfs.

Children of middle class families cannot, and have no hope of being able to save income for the foreseeable future. Even if they inherit their parent's estate, a big chunk will go to estate taxes, and another large chunk to the remaining student loan and credit card principal. With inflated real estate prices, what's left over may not even be enough to cover the down payment of a house in a safe neighborhood with decent schools. All of the inheritance built up over generations in many middle class families will be destroyed.

- Inflation of auto loan costs: What happened in subprime housing before 2005 is now occurring in auto loans. The bailout of the big 3 automakers allowed the government to take on their financing arms and lend to those with bad credit. The price of automobiles has been inflated, driving up the cost of ownership for everyone. Another sunken cost for college grads.

- Obamacare: Obamacare has substantially raised the cost of healthcare for most Americans. Monthly rates for many have increased by double digit %s annually for the past couple years. Higher deductibles mean the vast majority of people see no benefit for having insurance. People who choose not to buy healthcare are stolen from anyway. Businesses are also under pressure from the added costs and as a result fire or lower the hours of their employees.

- Rise in cost of rent: Government interference in the financial markets (TARP, central bank MBS buying programs) has prevented price discovery in the housing market. Financial giants have been prevented from taking big losses on their mortgage properties. Artificially low interest rates have inflated the asset values, reducing the benefit of down payments and interest tax write offs.

Instead of housing prices returning to a price where most people can afford them, mortgage companies have taken properties off the market, into a shadow inventory that artificially lowers the housing supply. As they can't afford inflated housing prices, more people are forced to rent, and real estate companies have been buying up large rental inventory in order to help drive prices upward.

- Rise in cost of commodities: Low interest rates have caused financial giants to speculate in commodities, driving up inflation in the necessities of life. Food prices, particularly in meat have gone up substantially since the last recession.

- Destruction of wealth: The risk-free savings rate has cratered, destroying the ability of the majority of the population to save and grow wealth in savings or certificate of deposit accounts.

Near Horizon
- TPP: Will increase offshoring and cause the destruction of more full-time jobs.

- Fracking crash: Highly leveraged oil fracking sector will face a wave of defaults and restructurings. Well paying oil jobs will be cut to save cost. Thousands of skilled full time jobs will be lost. Service and real estate sectors in these areas will also be majorly hit.

- Continued destruction of wealth: The $trillions added to the money supply by the fed may cause inflation to jump up in some sectors, further destroying the purchasing power and decades of hard earned savings for millions of Americans.

Post: #6

Excellent points everyone.

Another thing to consider is the Chinese currency peg impoverishes Chinese workers by drastically decreasing their buying power on the world market. We can buy more of their goods, but our manufacturing is not competitive with the low wages due to the peg. This peg was modified in 2005, but the RMB is still undervalued.

Article on unfunded liabilities. If government accounting practices were exercised in the private sectors, lots of people would go to jail:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/201...-trillion/

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

According to that the monetary base is up 572% since the year 2000. Inflation is inflation no matter if you are adding more lead to the gold bullion pot(Romans) or launching Bernanke style helicopter drops(present day).

I would really encourage everyone to take a look at the debt clock website and look at each individual number. The whole thing will undoubtedly collapse within our live times, probably in the next 15 years. You simply cannot have so many people sucking up SS, Medicare, pensions, food stamps, et al like they are doing now. Somebody has to actually produce wealth. You cannot have bailouts of failed companies(Fannie mae, freddie mac, GM, Goldman Sachs, etc etc). These governmental policies are sacrificing our future to give out handouts today!

Post: #7

I'm not going to disagree and say that everything is on the up and up, but I don't see holding these views as productive.

Here at RVF we preach constant self improvement, avoiding debt, saving $$$, and to avoid marrying crazy women who will take our assets. If you build employable skills and work hard I really think the majority of us will be fine.

Am I just lucky? I doubt it. I experienced many setbacks before landing my current gig which pays pretty well and I enjoy. In the meantime thanks to this forum and having a solid work ethic:

1) My health is excellent with all blood markers in optimal range. Some joint injuries from combat sports, but that comes with the territory.
2) Zero debt, solid job, enough savings where I don't care about getting laid off or fired.
3) Learned copywriting, python, and other hustles to make money on the side.
4) Get enough ass to keep me sane.

And I grew up poor as shit in a rough neighborhood. Not trying to brag at all. It could come crashing down tomorrow and I bet there's a lot of guys on here crushing it 10x as much, I'm just pointing out that you can either.

A. Read and write about 'the decline.'
B. Ignore all that shit, channel your energy and push towards your goals.

I also think the guy needs a stronger mindset.

'Middle class is treated like nothing.' None of us are entitled to anything in this world. If I'm treated poorly by some random person for whatever reason it doesn't bother me at all. For others it ruins their day. The difference? I realize I have power over my mind and the other guy doesn't.

Post: #8

(12-15-2015 12:08 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  I lasted 17 seconds with that accent. He's saying companies have bad customer service?

Should have kept watching! He said, "Companies, if I move, you find me. Bitch." The way he said it was hilarious!

Post: #9

Well, someone has to pay the salaries of the politicians, and their lackeys and it aint going to be the rich and poor.

Post: #10

(12-15-2015 06:03 PM)Neo Wrote:  I'm not going to disagree and say that everything is on the up and up, but I don't see holding these views as productive.

Here at RVF we preach constant self improvement, avoiding debt, saving $$$, and to avoid marrying crazy women who will take our assets. If you build employable skills and work hard I really think the majority of us will be fine.

Am I just lucky? I doubt it. I experienced many setbacks before landing my current gig which pays pretty well and I enjoy. In the meantime thanks to this forum and having a solid work ethic:

1) My health is excellent with all blood markers in optimal range. Some joint injuries from combat sports, but that comes with the territory.
2) Zero debt, solid job, enough savings where I don't care about getting laid off or fired.
3) Learned copywriting, python, and other hustles to make money on the side.
4) Get enough ass to keep me sane.

And I grew up poor as shit in a rough neighborhood. Not trying to brag at all. It could come crashing down tomorrow and I bet there's a lot of guys on here crushing it 10x as much, I'm just pointing out that you can either.

A. Read and write about 'the decline.'
B. Ignore all that shit, channel your energy and push towards your goals.

I also think the guy needs a stronger mindset.

'Middle class is treated like nothing.' None of us are entitled to anything in this world. If I'm treated poorly by some random person for whatever reason it doesn't bother me at all. For others it ruins their day. The difference? I realize I have power over my mind and the other guy doesn't.

That's a nice view, but you didn't take it to the next conclusion;

If the world owes us nothing, why does the middle class deserved to be increasingly stripped of it's wealth and power while the VERY BOTTOM of society(who is aimless and content at scraping by or causing strife) gets a "raise" every year?

Post: #11

(12-15-2015 07:17 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 06:03 PM)Neo Wrote:  I'm not going to disagree and say that everything is on the up and up, but I don't see holding these views as productive.

Here at RVF we preach constant self improvement, avoiding debt, saving $$$, and to avoid marrying crazy women who will take our assets. If you build employable skills and work hard I really think the majority of us will be fine.

Am I just lucky? I doubt it. I experienced many setbacks before landing my current gig which pays pretty well and I enjoy. In the meantime thanks to this forum and having a solid work ethic:

1) My health is excellent with all blood markers in optimal range. Some joint injuries from combat sports, but that comes with the territory.
2) Zero debt, solid job, enough savings where I don't care about getting laid off or fired.
3) Learned copywriting, python, and other hustles to make money on the side.
4) Get enough ass to keep me sane.

And I grew up poor as shit in a rough neighborhood. Not trying to brag at all. It could come crashing down tomorrow and I bet there's a lot of guys on here crushing it 10x as much, I'm just pointing out that you can either.

A. Read and write about 'the decline.'
B. Ignore all that shit, channel your energy and push towards your goals.

I also think the guy needs a stronger mindset.

'Middle class is treated like nothing.' None of us are entitled to anything in this world. If I'm treated poorly by some random person for whatever reason it doesn't bother me at all. For others it ruins their day. The difference? I realize I have power over my mind and the other guy doesn't.

That's a nice view, but you didn't take it to the next conclusion;

If the world owes us nothing, why does the middle class deserved to be increasingly stripped of it's wealth and power while the VERY BOTTOM of society(who is aimless and content at scraping by or causing strife) gets a "raise" every year?

Just to follow-up with you in regard to your point -- how does the bottom get a raise each year? Our government school systems are getting worse and worse each year, with class sizes getting larger, and quality of teachers degrading; general public welfare system offers virtually no safety net and discourages child rearing; -- virtually all of the institutions meant to serve the lower-class are in horrible shape. The one argument that could be made is that our healthcare system just started offering healthcare to all (although its development and efficiency are still in early infancy due to the political opposition).

Post: #12

(12-15-2015 07:56 PM)se7en Wrote:  Just to follow-up with you in regard to your point -- how does the bottom get a raise each year? Our government school systems are getting worse and worse each year, with class sizes getting larger, and quality of teachers degrading; general public welfare system offers virtually no safety net and discourages child rearing; -- virtually all of the institutions meant to serve the lower-class are in horrible shape. The one argument that could be made is that our healthcare system just started offering healthcare to all (although its development and efficiency are still in early infancy due to the political opposition).

I take it you aren't from an area that leads to familiarity with welfare dependents.

To make a concise point as possible, welfare directly encourages out of wedlock children in ever increasing numbers and a permanent livelihood in sacrifice of work. The quality of schooling is directly correlated with poor attitude toward education by the minority groups "served" under welfare and housing benefits. Education doesn't serve them with bigger welfare checks or insta-richness jobs, so they don't care. You have an underclass that has no concern of climbing out of being... the underclass. Wasting away in ignorance and parasitism is incentivized by the Govt. Welfare is a tool of mercy that I don't think should be erased, but it should be reformed undoubtedly. There are massive amounts of people on it who don't care for its intended purpose and use it to fuel criminal careers while using welfare as the safety net. It's really hard to get kicked off welfare and some are one it for ungodly amounts of time. I have been among the hood for extended periods of time, so please understand that I'm far more familiar with the 'front lines' of this issue than most people who dare to comment.

As far as Obama care goes, it's not even close to serving the majority with full coverage or even improving the insurance field. In fact, there's a plethora of literature by field experts that say Obamacare made the health insurance monopolies even worse. I'm lucky to have veteran healthcare. I may be realistically uninsured and have to pay 50% of any bill I incur, but I haven't met anyone who went through Obamacare finding a plan that they could afford that would fully cover them. A lot of people I asked said they pay more for less. Hopefully this isn't true in the wider nation, but I have seen that sentiment passed around often.

Post: #13

(12-15-2015 06:03 PM)Neo Wrote:  A. Read and write about 'the decline.'
B. Ignore all that shit, channel your energy and push towards your goals.

Well that only works until the society you live in gets so bad to a point where everything around you sucks and everything falls apart. That's when you start to talk and care about the decline, just like Trump did.

Post: #14

(12-15-2015 08:43 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

(12-15-2015 07:56 PM)se7en Wrote:  Just to follow-up with you in regard to your point -- how does the bottom get a raise each year? Our government school systems are getting worse and worse each year, with class sizes getting larger, and quality of teachers degrading; general public welfare system offers virtually no safety net and discourages child rearing; -- virtually all of the institutions meant to serve the lower-class are in horrible shape. The one argument that could be made is that our healthcare system just started offering healthcare to all (although its development and efficiency are still in early infancy due to the political opposition).

I take it you aren't from an area that leads to familiarity with welfare dependents.

To make a concise point as possible, welfare directly encourages out of wedlock children in ever increasing numbers and a permanent livelihood in sacrifice of work. The quality of schooling is directly correlated with poor attitude toward education by the minority groups "served" under welfare and housing benefits. Education doesn't serve them with bigger welfare checks or insta-richness jobs, so they don't care. You have an underclass that has no concern of climbing out of being... the underclass. Wasting away in ignorance and parasitism is incentivized by the Govt. Welfare is a tool of mercy that I don't think should be erased, but it should be reformed undoubtedly. There are massive amounts of people on it who don't care for its intended purpose and use it to fuel criminal careers while using welfare as the safety net. It's really hard to get kicked off welfare and some are one it for ungodly amounts of time. I have been among the hood for extended periods of time, so please understand that I'm far more familiar with the 'front lines' of this issue than most people who dare to comment.

As far as Obama care goes, it's not even close to serving the majority with full coverage or even improving the insurance field. In fact, there's a plethora of literature by field experts that say Obamacare made the health insurance monopolies even worse. I'm lucky to have veteran healthcare. I may be realistically uninsured and have to pay 50% of any bill I incur, but I haven't met anyone who went through Obamacare finding a plan that they could afford that would fully cover them. A lot of people I asked said they pay more for less. Hopefully this isn't true in the wider nation, but I have seen that sentiment passed around often.

This! (what I underlined)

Welfare in the US pretty much only works at all if you have kids; the more the kids the better.

If you are a single person with no children and hit a rough patch, about every social service office will tell you to fuck off. You might get food stamps.

Until Obamacare, poor people without kids were absolutely screwed on access to medicaid. Now, poor single people can at least get medicaid in certain states.

How about tax credits for kids? From the IRS:

The maximum amount of credit for Tax Year 2016 is [if you are below a certain income]:

$6,269 with three or more qualifying children
$5,572 with two qualifying children
$3,373 with one qualifying child
$506 with no qualifying children

Source: https://www.irs.gov/Credits-&-Deductions...-Next-Year)

So some chick can do the following with two kids:

1. Claim child support
2. Get food stamps
3. Get priority access to reduce/subsidized housing
4. Get Medicaid for herself and her kids
5. And get additional $5550 from the govt a year (or about $458/month)
6. Numerous other mini-benefits (reduced cost on electric, internet, phone, etc).
7. Claim disability and then its a wrap.

There are multi-generation families that are experts at skimming the system and milking it for every cent its worth. Personally, I think if a woman is receiving welfare, she should be forbidden in having children. Daughters of lifetime welfare recipients should have to get a mandatory birth control implant of some variety and/or mandatory abortion if knocked up. I know this sounds very extreme but its the only real way to stop the breeding of the next generation of deadbeats.

What are the alternatives?

If you cut them off, they will revolt and end up in jail. Costing money that way.

Cutting off children is not ethical in my opinion. Mom might be a cunt but its not the kids fault.

In the end though, none of this will matter. As jobs disappear, the west will probably have a minimum income for all in the next 50 years; effectively putting everyone on welfare. That or the west is going to have a very 1st/3rd world thing going on like Brazil. Hard to say now where it will all end up.