Post: #1

This article, from last year, summarizes my situation well:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142405...0097660366

Men, aged 28-50ish or so, in prime working years, are having an exceedingly difficult time finding work. Recently there has been discussion on the rise in suicide/deaths of middle aged, white people in this country and I can make a pretty good argument is due to lack of economic opportunity as I have bouts of depression and loss of hope. Similar thing happened in Russia when Communism collapsed and capitalism destroyed many safe/secure jobs. Many of my friends are in or finding themselves in the exact same situation though one or two seem to be doing quite well. Most of the females in our lives (gf, wives, etc) are doing extraordinarily well! Making it that much more difficult pill to swallow when under/unemployed. I call it Financial Darwinism and we are being systematically eliminated from the game.

So without getting into the blame game - Has anyone successfully escaped from this hole? How did you do it? New skills? Hustling? Finding a back door? I'd love to discuss strategies and experiences.


Further Links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/opinio...p=cur&_r=0

Dying Russians:
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/201...-russians/

Post: #2

The alternative is to start a business and move abroad for lower cost of living.

Post: #3

(11-09-2015 02:38 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  The alternative is to start a business and move abroad for lower cost of living.

To expand a bit:

1) Starting your own biz is the ideal answer to competition for existing positions. If you can't get a seat, make your own! As an aside, I was talking to a fellow alumni from my University and we both remarked how we would have been rejected from admissions had we been applying these days given the caliber of students being accepted (we both attended 10-15 years ago). Brian Spector is the #2 Portfolio Manager at one of the best hedge funds in the world, Baupost Group, and he remarked in his retirement letter that he also would not have been able to get a job there had he applied today. Supply & demand, too many people for too few positions so competition is fierce. One of the best ways is to go around the competition.

2) Job mobility is undoubtedly related to career progression. Move to where the positions are. Unfortunately, in this age group specifically, mobility is usually limited. This is 30-55, may have young children, married, rely on family for support. I know many immigrant families took the whole family over to the US with nothing etc etc but it is a common hindrance for this cohort. If physical relocation is not an option, what are the remote work possibilities for international positions?

Post: #4

The competition in the job market is fierce. This might sound dumb but once you land a job always keep eyes open for another one. Make money at everything you do. I literally work 3 different jobs 7 days a week. One full time and two part time. Yes it sucks.

Post: #5

(11-09-2015 06:12 PM)rpg Wrote:  The competition in the job market is fierce. This might sound dumb but once you land a job always keep eyes open for another one. Make money at everything you do. I literally work 3 different jobs 7 days a week. One full time and two part time. Yes it sucks.

@RPG I assume that's because one doesn't pay all the bills? Would you prefer to have just 1 job and what do you think is holding you back from that?

Post: #6

(11-09-2015 06:20 PM)no_mas Wrote:  @RPG I assume that's because one doesn't pay all the bills? Would you prefer to have just 1 job and what do you think is holding you back from that?

Doesn't have to be the case, in todays jobmarket it's better to spread out your chances unless you happen to be in an extremely in-demand field/niche.

I work two jobs even though either one of them could cover my bills pretty easily, if you can handle it ( ie you don't dislike your job, working part time etc ) never say no to a side hustle.

Post: #7

The western world has been shifting towards what's essentially a "pretend" economy for quite some time now. Here's how it works: all productive tasks (chopping lumber, carrying the gold from the mine to the town hall, etc) are either outsourced or given to immigrants who are excited to get a handful of shiny American pennies that will allow them to buy just enough low cost calories in order to successfully breed.

What's left for the natives are basically make-work jobs. Jobs where a person's entire productive output is filling out forms just to get through bureaucratic tape to enable productive people to do their jobs. In these jobs the biggest part of the job is putting on your little suit and showing up on time and then bustling around like a busy beaver telling everyone how busy you are.

Now, since American women have the busiest beavers of all, they excel at these kinds of jobs. They love getting phony ego gratification from dressing up, "networking", and doing all sorts of things that one might see in stock photography of upper middle class white people in an office. Hence, all the paper pushing jobs in our new modern economy tend to be dominated by women, because they're perfectly fine with doing any job that is valuable in status signaling, even if there's no actual productive work being accomplished. Men get frustrated by the runaround, and eventually have to either chop their balls off and pretend they don't mind that sort of work, or start grumbling and eventually get pushed out for not being a "team player" or some bullshit HR offence.

Young men can still maintain their ego through video games or recreational activities. It's the older men who get their sense of self from their jobs that have gotten caught up in this shift and end up blowing their brains out after getting fired for being overheard at the water cooler talking about the busy beaver of the office admin.

Don't let people shit on you for not subjecting yourself to this Kafka-esque environment.

Post: #8

No Mas,
Learn a portable skill.
Move abroad.

Come to China. So many opportunities both biz and work related! So much work here you won't even have time to scratch your back. So many opportunities you won't know where to start!

There's plenty of info in it in here. I've written extensively on it. Do a search.

There's no easier way to escape this shity situation.

99% of the population are just too damn lazy and want everything given to them on a silver plate without lifting a finger and without leaving their comfy couch. Even if you tell them exactly what to do step by step, they still won't do it.

If there are no opportunities where you are, then go where they are bountiful. Companies and corporations have been doing it for a very very long time, so why not you? There's nothing holding you back other than your own laziness and lack of courage.

No excuses!

P.S. By YOU, I don't mean you personally OP, but it's a general you.

Post: #9

Yes.

It's a bit of an off-course option, but I went back to school at a top tier business program. I'm in the running for some extremely high paying advisory gigs right now(think finance at consulting firms) but even the fallback outcomes will be pretty cushy and likely over six figures.

Unfortunately this experience has given me a bit of a glimpse into harsh reality: it's not fair. You may be an extremely talented candidate, but in this job market most employers want the "safe" candidate. All other things being equal this means they will hire the guy with experience doing the job and/or the right certification over someone who doesn't.

If you can take the time out there's a lot of ways to do this: go back and get a master's degree(there's a lot of specialized MS programs out there), get a job certification (e.g. PMP, CFA, 6sigma), or go into an apprenticeship program(common for blue collar jobs).

Post: #10

(11-09-2015 09:00 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  Come to China.

While I don't share Vacancier Permanent's level of enthusiasm, as I know lots of Westerners here in China that are hardly managing to do much more than achieve a comfortable standard of living that would qualify as no better than lower middle class, he's right that moving to China is a smart choice.

But only if you're willing to hustle. Even in China, nothing is going to be handed to you for free.

Mix in visa issues and just general corruption and you'll suffer unexpected setbacks.

That being said, for me as a Canadian, there is potential here in China that does not exist for me back home.

I'm building a life for myself. It isn't happening overnight, but I've been making steady progress.

This progress has been made using skills that I've been able to teach myself. Yes, I have a university degree, which makes maintaining a visa much easier, but I'm building a business doing something I enjoy doing that I learned how to do on my own, which has very decent income potential ($100K USD annually).

To be honest, very few people would be willing to sacrifice what is necessary to succeed. People want to live in a comfortable city and have the job they want to.

Sometime you can't have both, at least not right away.

If you move to China, you'll have to be willing to accept a step down in terms of standard of living compared to what you are used to.

Post: #11

(11-09-2015 09:52 PM)Suits Wrote:  To be honest, very few people would be willing to sacrifice what is necessary to succeed. People want to live in a comfortable city and have the job they want to.

Sometime you can't have both, at least not right away.

If you move to China, you'll have to be willing to accept a step down in terms of standard of living compared to what you are used to.

Damn right....except I plan on keeping that standard of living.

The tradeoff is that I'm going to be working a slavedriver schedule for at least a year out of grad school. We're talking 80 hour weeks minimum, but the payoff is a bigass paycheck, getting to be in what is perhaps the last male-dominated white collar field, and a high degree of geographic and professional mobility.

Post: #12

Agreed that China is not an overnight thing. Nothing worthwhile is to be honest.

It's a 5 year game plan to really see the kind of results that we all want. 5 years in China is enough to see the kind of results that in todays' economical climate in the West, would take decades, if not more, if possible at all in the first place.

Your key comment Suits is that there's potential in China that doesn't not exist for you, me and many many other guys out there back home in Canada, US, Western Europe and rest of Anglosphere. That is right there THE real attraction of China.

I am right now not making big bucks, I am making about the same that I'd make back in Toronto while working about less hours and without the daily 2 hour commute each way. Not to mention, I am doing something I truly love as opposed to doing something I'd dread every single minute back home. To that, if you add the cost of living being a 1/3 if not a 1/4 of Toronto, I am able to not only be able to build up a decent stash but also enjoying a much more fulfilling lifestyle and quality of life that I could in Boretown.

I am building slowly but surely, a solid foundation that will yield tremendous fruits as early as next year.

So China is a mid to long term game plan. At the very least give it 5 years and put a real effort to learn the Language. Without either of those, China will not make any sense.

Post: #13

(11-09-2015 06:20 PM)no_mas Wrote:  

(11-09-2015 06:12 PM)rpg Wrote:  The competition in the job market is fierce. This might sound dumb but once you land a job always keep eyes open for another one. Make money at everything you do. I literally work 3 different jobs 7 days a week. One full time and two part time. Yes it sucks.

@RPG I assume that's because one doesn't pay all the bills? Would you prefer to have just 1 job and what do you think is holding you back from that?

One good job with pension and health ins. the other two for more cash money, and contacts in the community. It is easier to land a job with pension and health than make enough cash money to pay for it all yourself. One has to find the right kind of job to pull it off.

Post: #14

(11-09-2015 10:15 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  It's a 5 year game plan to really see the kind of results that we all want. 5 years in China is enough to see the kind of results that in todays' economical climate in the West, would take decades, if not more, if possible at all in the first place.

Yes, China is definitely a five year game.

One year learning Chinese, either initially at the beginning or spread out of over several years, but at a minimum, if you're going to be able to speak enough to function at a level that takes most of the frustration out of daily life in China, you're talking a year's worth of time investment that you could have been doing something else, like banging bitches or becoming a world class chef.

Two years of acclimatization. This can overlap with "learning Chinese." It's going to take some time to identify which opportunities fit your skills.

Then two more years of building the skills necessary to be successful and ultimately developing and putting into action a successful business model.

That's roughly the path I've followed and I'm very much on the edge of success, but I'm also at the five year mark.

In theory, I could have achieved things quicker, but when you are entering uncharted territory, it takes time to get the lay of the land and develop a plan.

If you came off the boat with a realistic and attainable plan that you were fully committed to, you could be embracing success in three years time.

If your idea of success is a million dollars, then count on investing a lot more time and getting taken to the cleaners a few times along the way before you really strike it rich. Enjoy spending those months eating the cheapest food you can find because you're completely broke and will be for the rest of the winter. I know I have.


But seriously, if you're sitting somewhere in the Western world and you have a good mind and lots of ideas then consider China. PM me.

However, if you're just a complainer back home, that's what you are going to be when you move to China. Because there sure are plenty of things to complain about here too.

Post: #15

@no_mas. I feel your pain. My career and employment has been all over the map for the past 6 years, and a child and resultant child support has me stuck stateside in Ohio. M-fer. Whose working here in droves? Minorities, women, and some men. You're either in or you're out, if it's in the traditional male sphere of employment. There's little in between.

I'm currently focused on both starting a business repping for a manufacturer, as well as - fingers crossed - landing a normal daytime gig which will provide me with the 401k and medical insurance my previous job did from a few years back.

What's changed the most in the job market from my experience, is 10-20 years ago, you could basically bust your ass and get some level of recognition from superiors, and slowly, maybe, move up the chain if you weathered bubble economics and financial fall outs. I literally lost my last job entirely due to political reasons, namely the VP I reported to, I made look bad just by working hard. I was landing biddable opportunities that put me in internal contact with HIS bosses, and he didn't like that. So he fired my like the beta-in-alpha's clothing he really was.

Avoid large soul-sucking businesses where cliquey alliances of beta-fucktards form to bring down anyone better than they are. Oh, and don't get a bitch pregnant. the end.

Post: #16

I'm afraid that careers and game have followed the same path.

We live in a winner takes all society now.

You have to adapt or die. It is that simple.

Post: #17

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Post: #18

(11-10-2015 01:49 AM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  China is probably not a place for me. My only skills and interests are in the creative field. Otherwise I'd probably take the next plane.

Don't sell yourself short. There's opportunities to start creative type businesses here that are already terribly overplayed in more civilized parts of the world.

For example, there is a big demand for foreigners who can teach art classes at cafes on the weekend.

The real challenge (for anything in China) is not a question of demand, but rather creating a workable schedule that creates a living wage.

Of course, there are plenty of reasons to stay far, far away from China, but interest in "creative" jobs is not one of them.

Post: #19

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Post: #20

(11-10-2015 04:58 AM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 02:20 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(11-10-2015 01:49 AM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  China is probably not a place for me. My only skills and interests are in the creative field. Otherwise I'd probably take the next plane.

Don't sell yourself short. There's opportunities to start creative type businesses here that are already terribly overplayed in more civilized parts of the world.

For example, there is a big demand for foreigners who can teach art classes at cafes on the weekend.

The real challenge (for anything in China) is not a question of demand, but rather creating a workable schedule that creates a living wage.

Of course, there are plenty of reasons to stay far, far away from China, but interest in "creative" jobs is not one of them.

Thanks! I'll need to read some older threads about China, and see if there's anything for me there. I write/direct/edit/shoot films, TV, comedy, and so on.

If you have a legit and realistic plan in place, there is no reason to move to China.

China for the guys who would have trouble getting started back home and want somewhere where opportunities will come faster.

Post: #21

I am definitely not an expert as I have not been looking for a job in at least 10 years but I think part of the perceived market place issues are related to the internet. Back when I was looking for employment there were only two possible places to go and look for job postings in my field. They were all there. Competition was still difficult but finding the jobs was easy.

Now...holy shit, its like a maze of trying to find where job listings are, if they are scams, if they are legit. On top of that...fucking HR...they make you re-type everything into form fields and then run keyword filters on it as a first pass screen.

I think this confusing maze, combined with job applicants that are spammers has actually scared away small and medium businesses from posting ads and they've gone back to referral/word of mouth.

In short, the job market has become like the online dating market. Attractive jobs ads get spammed with a trillion messages from a trillion losers. You need to find a way to work around that...for example, I hired a guy once that sent a 'cold call' type email to my sales inbox. It was really good and an unusual approach. He said he got 4 job offers in a week on it...and he had just graduated college, with zero practical experience vs. people that had been in the game a long time.

Post: #22

I wouldn't exactly call it an easy solution since a STEM degree is difficult to get, but if you have academic aspirations and can hack the math, what you can do is to go into a field with basically zero percent unemployment, so even the lower 30 percentile degree holders get like three job offers before graduating.

Actuaries, specialized physics degree holders (geophysics, astrophysics, etc), most engineers, a lot of STEM, in the last twenty years or so a lot of growth has been going on in these fields. Captain Capitalism pretty strongly recommends this approach in "Worthless".

A lot of these fields pay pretty well but generally you want to be more specialized rather than less specialized (pure math is cool and all but application is critical), and some foreign companies seem to have a fetish for hiring only masters degrees and above. You also want to keep your ear to the grapevine and stay informed by going to job fairs and figuring out what skills they are looking for. I haven't bothered joining organizations or anything but according to most of the engineering alumni, joining the society of X engineers is like adding .333 to your GPA.

Most of the actual people working in these fields have pretty bad social skills so if you're an average engineer and consciously work on skills like pay negotiation, public speaking, managing people, and interviewing then upward mobility is generally guaranteed. The best engineers usually like what they do and don't move up the food chain.

Post: #23

I don't agree with the bolded part. It's more a matter of the ROI not being worth the effort and time investment required to reap the results. Add to that the fact that the investment of both time and resources required to get anything off the ground is way steeper in a mature market like NA than in a booming one like China, Asia or most of the developing world.

There's plenty of opportunities here for creative minds. The Chinese are not blessed with creativity so westerners with good ideas and creative minds can and will blossom here way more and way faster than in their respective lands.

(11-10-2015 05:01 AM)Suits Wrote:  If you have a legit and realistic plan in place, there is no reason to move to China.

China for the guys who would have trouble getting started back home and want somewhere where opportunities will come faster.

Post: #24

OP, you may find this fascinating. I'm mostly in agreement:





From that Paul Krugman NYT article:

Quote: Some people who feel left behind by the American story turn self-destructive; others turn on the elites they feel have betrayed them.

Thing is, black America has experienced this for well, centuries now. And I think the despair fueled by hopelessness and an economic marginalization is at least in part responsible for the violence and self-destructiveness we see in inner cities. Our society has dealt with the problem using a contain and ignore strategy aided by the prison system. Now the problem is starting to manifest itself in white America. Perhaps these trends of mass shootings stem from the same cause. Alienated, disaffected men that feel society has given up on them and have lost all hope of viable and meaningful existence.

(11-10-2015 08:34 AM)Hades Wrote:  I wouldn't exactly call it an easy solution since a STEM degree is difficult to get, but if you have academic aspirations and can hack the math, what you can do is to go into a field with basically zero percent unemployment, so even the lower 30 percentile degree holders get like three job offers before graduating.

Yeah, STEM is a guarantee for stable employment. Problem is the bell curve. If you don't have an IQ of at least 120 you probably aren't going to cut it in STEM. And since the vast majority of the population is well under that in intelligence this just isn't a solution for the majority of people, sadly.

Post: #25

(11-10-2015 12:11 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  I'm afraid that careers and game have followed the same path.

We live in a winner takes all society now.

You have to adapt or die. It is that simple.

I love this analogy, it applies in all aspects of life.

It is pretty obvious that companies are streamlining their workforce. Being a bit older than most on here, I remember back in college I did data - entry jobs which were easy and paid well considering. These jobs do not exist any more.

Then call centre jobs were the thing, I leveraged one of those gigs to get into a multi-national company. These jobs do not exist any more, well not in my area. They have been out-sourced to overseas countries like India, Philippines etc.

People use to complain about getting a crummy gold watch when they retired, now you are lucky if you can get a decent paying full time gig.

Getting old is not easy, but I would hate to be a youngster leaving school these days. You are pretty much forced to leave your home and go far away. I salute you guys who have the stones to go to China.

In these tough times, the bar has been raised. I was speaking to a young smart kid in the coffee shop the other day, he is studying for his CFA. We talked about MBA programs, he actually thought even those were a waste of time.

I love this forum, simply because of the out the box thinkers we have on here.

I myself am working on a online business, I am grateful for even having that option.