Post: #1

Ryan McMaken claims that if Sweden and Germany became US states, they would be among the most poorest states.

"Since Sweden is held up as a sort of promised land by American socialists, let's compare it first. We find that, if it were to join the US as a state, Sweden would be poorer than all but 12 states, with a median income of $27,167.

Median residents in states like Colorado ($35,830), Massachusetts ($37,626), Virginia ($39,291), Washington ($36,343), and Utah ($36,036) have considerably higher incomes than Sweden.

With the exception of Luxembourg ($38,502), Norway ($35,528), and Switzerland ($35,083), all countries shown would fail to rank as high-income states were they to become part of the United States. In fact, most would fare worse than Mississippi, the poorest state.

For example, Mississippi has a higher median income ($23,017) than 18 countries measured here. The Czech Republic, Estonia, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, Poland, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, and the United Kingdom all have median income levels below $23,000 and are thus below every single US state. Not surprisingly, the poorest OECD members (Chile, Mexico, and Turkey) have median incomes far below Mississippi." (source)

The red line is the US median. To the right are the 50 US states. To the left are the OCED countries.



And here it they are adjusted for purchasing power.

Post: #2

Median -_-

Is there a comparison where the top outliers are snipped then the mean of the remainder is calculated?

Post: #3

Ahh, the pointless comparison of currency when only one country is the reserve currency.

Eisenhower's America had Keynesian policies and top marginal tax rate of what, 85%?

America, and the west, has gutted its middle class because if one thing.

Workers lost bargaining power with the 1%.

From a dialectic approach, ask "if from the 1960's onwards, the 1% got more power, what would happen?".

America in 2015 is what would happen. Today has happened according to plan.

The loss of bargaining power ceded to the 1%, it may be feminism, it may be immigration, it may be many things, but it ain't the tax rate that people on $100k plus are paying, it ain't collective medicine.

Post: #4

Why is New Hampshire so high?

Post: #5

Those higher incomes don't account for the amount Americans have to spend on healthcare and education debts etc covered by the government in Germany and Sweden. Though the way both countries are going due to spiraling welfare costs and heavily ageing populations in the productive sectors of society it is likely they will increasingly rely on private provision as the British more and more are doing, particularly the younger generations. Boomers and pensioners will still get their entitlements, and vote to ensure this will continue.

Post: #6

(10-27-2015 08:13 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  Why is New Hampshire so high?

Good question. It has New Jersey, Connecticut, and Maryland all beat. I've never heard that before.

Post: #7

Is receiving health care through an employer counted as income? Most working americans still receive health care that way.

Other then Switzerland, these are special cases. Norway is flooded with oil money and Luxembourg is a tax haven.

200 years ago, someone would have invaded and conquered Norway for their oil.

Post: #8

Have you been to Europe? The infrastructure in many cities over there make America look like a 3rd world country.

Post: #9

(10-27-2015 08:33 PM)uptownguy Wrote:  Have you been to Europe? The infrastructure in many cities over there make America look like a 3rd world country.

We ve spread out our population too much and spend way more on roads. The rich still live in cities in Europe and dont use the car to go everywhere. Its complicated comparision.

Post: #10

(10-27-2015 08:33 PM)uptownguy Wrote:  Have you been to Europe? The infrastructure in many cities over there make America look like a 3rd world country.

The sheer land mass might have something to do with it.

Post: #11

This isn't true. 100 years ago and onwards for a long stretch America was building the best roads and bridges on earth. The Euros have a greater rationale for building infrastructure but they just simply see value in putting forth the best technology you can as it is cheaper in the long run. Stuff like the Holland Tunnel when it was built a fuking 100 gears ago, nothing on earth was like it. The Boston T subway still functions off being 100+ years old, when it was built it was much better then the dank, deep, and dirty, dungeon tunnels London was building.

America only stopped this trend when it started going broke in 70s. Europe today mostly contracts the projects to Hong Kong/Asian firms and source Euro parts from firms like Seimens to make train lines and whatever else.

Post: #12

(10-27-2015 08:13 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  Why is New Hampshire so high?

I'd guess because it's a small state, with a lot of business owners. i.e.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%26S_Wholesale_Grocers

Post: #13

The US gets a lot of help being the reserve currency. I fear the relative benefits of being in the States once reserve status is lost will make many goods significantly more expensive.

However, I can say after living in the UK for a month I am very much aware of many negative things working against the local englishmen.

You get very little value for your money here. Food, especially protein is absolutely expensive and the sizes of said protein incredibly small. I could give 2 shits if it's organic and given a deep tissue massage each month. Groceries are such a scam here.

Property is way too expensive thanks to the buy to let craze. The whole system is designed to prevent people from having large families and maintaining the status quo.
England doesn't have a space problem but a regulation problem. There's plenty of space but a lot of stubborn and idiotic pensioners who want their towns and villages to look like 1935 refuse to build up and out. The elderly are clearly to blame for Englands current housing problems.

Mobile phone service Is abysmal here. For the first time ever I miss Verizon and ATT. EE is passable, but egad I never get a decent signal when I need it most.

Partaking in illegal things, i've been ripped off twice by Arabs when trying to buy certain green things. I've met some of the most sketchy ass black dudes in the roughest parts of town in America so many times and never been ripped off. Not only were those dudes cool they hooked it up. Never trust an Arab. And wtf is up with all of these kebab joints? Thank goodness for the good Indian food.

As a whole my living experience here in the UK I can wholeheartedly say is over rated. Americans have a weird love affair with all things Europe and especially European socialism. Some things are admittedly better and less complicated however the value is way less. I don't have the heart to tell Americans how good they have it.

Living in England has made me more racist and xenophobic. F*ck muslims, middle easterners, and spaniards. You come to a country you learn its f*cking language or at least make an effort too.

The only redeeming quality i've seen is the hospitality of native Englanders who i fear are quickly becoming a minority in their own country. I'd be significantly more bitter and mean if it wasn't for some of the cool English gents i've met. Seriously, i'd join the army to have the honor of fighting alongside some of you guys.

Can't say the same for most of the women, but that's a different post for a different day.

This isn't the same England I remember 10 years ago and it saddens me greatly.

Frankly, I see myself staying here if only to help and find a way to bring about change for the people who welcomed me here. As much as I love America I don't see myself achieving great things there.

I was a royalist before I even realized it. God save the Queen!

Post: #14

(10-27-2015 09:54 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 08:33 PM)uptownguy Wrote:  Have you been to Europe? The infrastructure in many cities over there make America look like a 3rd world country.

The sheer land mass might have something to do with it.

Put that northern tip of Texas in England and you maybe have 200 mil in Europe vs 30 mil in Texas

Post: #15

Isn't America broke?

The national debt is in the trillions.

Post: #16

So Texas could take all the refugees alone?

Post: #17

We have enough illegal immigrants cultural enrichment.

Post: #18

(10-28-2015 09:09 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Partaking in illegal things, i've been ripped off twice by Arabs when trying to buy certain green things. I've met some of the most sketchy ass black dudes in the roughest parts of town in America so many times and never been ripped off. Not only were those dudes cool they hooked it up. Never trust an Arab.

I had no problems with this is Brighton. In fact, I think I got a pretty good deal :-)

Post: #19

The thread title and introductory sentence are at best misleading. Germany has over a three trillion dollar economy and is consistently listed as the fourth largest GDP in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co..._(nominal)

http://databank.worldbank.org/data/download/GDP.pdf

http://statisticstimes.com/economy/proje...anking.php

GDP is probably the main indicator of how "rich" or "poor" a country is.

Germany is not a "poor" country.

But perhaps you mean that by measuring "median income" Germany is poor because the average Hans has less income than the average Joe in Alabama. (Your chart has Germany listed as having a lesser median income than Alabama)

The author of the article you site attempts to forestall the obvious counter arguments (1) the measure of GDP and (2) accounting for the benefits given to the average German.

On No. 1, yes GDP can be skewed by a big distribution gap between the rich and the poor.

You know whose at the top of the list though?

1 United States
2 China
3 Japan
4 Germany
5 United Kingdom

somewhere near the bottom are:

125 Zimbabwe
126 Namibia
127 Albania
128 South Sudan
129 West Bank and Gaza

http://databank.worldbank.org/data/download/GDP.pdf

That comparison speaks for itself.

The second point is that the author says his chart takes into account things like welfare and subsidized healthcare. The author provides a link as to how that measurement is made and it is based on measurements that don't properly take into account the value of nationalized healthcare. (http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/IDD-ToR.pdf)

You can't just take into account a dollar value of what a person pays into a healthcare system (whether nationalized or private insurance) and end there. The question is what value does the person get when they need that insurance payout.

Having dealt with insurance companies I can tell you that insurance is worthless until, and if, you get your payout when you need it.

The whole social system/health insurance thing is a big debate all on its own and there are legitimate questions as to whether many European states take too much tax or have bloated social systems, but those questions would need their own thread.

Conclusion: Saying that Germany is poorer than Alabama is ridiculous.

Post: #20

(10-27-2015 11:03 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

(10-27-2015 08:13 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  Why is New Hampshire so high?

I'd guess because it's a small state, with a lot of business owners. i.e.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%26S_Wholesale_Grocers

Because NH has very low poverty. States that have the highest income outliers like CT, NY, CA, etc. also have some very impoverished and low-income communities as well which affects the metric greatly.

Post: #21

A lot of the issue in comparing raw US$ converted figures is the fact that the Euro has declined considerably in the last couple of years. That same chart in 2011 when the Euro was considerably higher would have looked totally different, currency fluctuations account for a delta of 30-40%.

Traditionally though the bottom half to three quarters have had it better in Europe, due to things like better/subsidized social services including healthcare and education. Even at the top income brackets, other benefits like reduced work hours and extended vacations, maternity leave, etc add up. Business/capital owners in the US have it better than in Europe, that could be the only category that is clearly better off.

Post: #22

Stunted socialist economies.

The US will regress to European levels in a couple of decades at the rate we're going.

Post: #23

Having just gotten back from Sweden and Oslo. Trust me, aint nothing poor about it. They just do a better job hiding the $$$$

Post: #24

(10-29-2015 03:04 PM)chyamor Wrote:  Having just gotten back from Sweden and Oslo. Trust me, aint nothing poor about it. They just do a better job hiding the $$$$

By doing what exactly?

Post: #25

I'm surprised at how low Japan is, passed by Korea. Maybe it's a matter of having a low percentage of active population, but it is important to note that Japan is the industrialized nation with the most restrictive immigration policies, just saying...