Post: #1

Before 1970, the US Census Bureau classified Mexican, Cuban and Puerto Rican immigrants as whites. Each community of Latin American origin would go by their nationality and by the region where they lived in the United States. But all that changed in the seventies, as activists began lobbying the US Census Bureau to create a broad, national category that included all these communities. The result was the creation of the term “Hispanic”, first introduced in the US Census in 1970.

The story of hispanics:

What were "hispanics" considered before the Civil Rigthts movement?

- Nobody before the 1970's was ever "Hispanic" or "Latino". No one was ever called "hispanic" and no one ever identified as "hispanic". The concept that all spanish-speaking or spanish-surnamed people constitute an ethnic group did not exist.

- Mexicans, Puerto-Ricans, and Cubans were unrelated immigrant groups who did not identify with each other and were never statistically grouped. Nearly all (90%) were considered racially white, with the exception being those that were obviously of african ancestry and were considered black. No one was "latino/hispanic".

How did they identify?

- They identified as white. In the context of the segregated South, Mexicans and Cubans in particular always insisted that they were white. They also did not identify with each other at all; a Mexican had nothing to do with a Cuban.

Did Hispanics experience discrimination?

- There were never any laws, ever in U.S History, in any state, that discriminated against or excluded Mexican Americans, and much less "Spanish" people or Spanish-surnamed people. Stories of legal segregation/exclusion are almost completely invented. No, the people we call "hispanic" today were never subject to Jim Crow or any other discriminatory race laws from the past. They were always permitted to go to white-only segregated schools, they could vote, hold public office, fought in white units of the army, could marry other whites, and they were not on the back of any buses.

- The discrimination that they did experience was defacto (not legally institutionalized). Legally, they had all of the rights of other white people, but socially they were considered "other" white people for being culturally different.

Examples of "other" white groups:
The Irish
Jews
Italians
Polish people
Mexicans
Cubans
Puerto Ricans.

- like the Irish and like Jews, Mexicans faced a fair amount of day-to-day discrimination and in certain social contexts some people did not consider them white. However, this discrimination was random and not consistent; officially they were always considered white and not distinguished from "Anglos" or other European nationalities.

- Cubans, Puerto Ricans and other unrelated Spanish speaking groups faced little discrimination. There are very few anecdotes. Cubans were unquestionably white, and Puerto Ricans didn't live anywhere that was legally segregated.

Did Hispanics play a role in the civil rights movement?

- No.

- Mexican organizations always distanced themselves from the black civil rights movement because they did not want to conflate themselves with minority groups. They fought their own battles, and their argument was always that they were white. In every court case that involves Mexican Americans, the argument was that discrimination against Mexicans was wrong and unlawful because they were of the white race. That isn't a civil rights argument.

How and why did they become minorities?

- After the civil rights movement, after all the legal battles had been won, things changed dramatically. Suddenly, being white wasn't a privilege anymore. What's more, the government was giving out money to "discriminated minority" groups (blacks). This is when Mexicans started saying that they were not white.

- Their argument was that even though they were always officially white, and even though they had always identified as white, they weren't treated the same as other whites and therefore were deserving of these new benefits.

- The first non-white identity Mexicans created was "Chicano", an identity that emphasized their indigenous ancestry. Before the civil rights movement they insisted that they were Spanish, to affirm their whiteness. "Chicano" activism began in the late sixties, emulating the black civil rights movement.

- They lobbied local goverments to get Mexicans classified as non-white, and became minorities overnight. Many people in the South West were confused when this happened.

Then what?

- They wanted federal minorities benefits. But when they went to Washington to demand this, they were told no for two reasons:

1) They were white.

The federal government still classified them as whites, and told them that the new programs were not intended for white people.

- First they lobbied the Feds to create a new non-white "mexican" category for them (ironic since 20 years earlier there was an attempt to make a mexican category that they protested), but the feds refused.

2) They were a regional group.

They were told that since Mexicans were concentrated in the South West, they were a regional issue and should take up their problems with local governments.

The Solution (the origin of "hispanic"):

- A group of people sat down and brainstormed, and came up with a solution. They decided to project themselves as a national group by claiming that all spanish-speaking people were really one ethnic group. Some woman, Grace Flores Hughes, coined the term "hispanic".

- They started to communicate with Cubans in Florida and Puerto Ricans in New York about creating this new National Hispanic group, but early attempts were not successful. Prs and Cubans both stated that the groups didn't have anything in common. Puerto Rican activists were focused on the independence movement, and Cubans were focused on foreign policy with the Castro Regime. Neither groups cared much about immigration or the plight of Mexican migrant workers.

- Despite early failures at unifying the disparate immigrant groups, they were persistent. They started to collaborate with local media ("Univision"), to spread the word about "hispanics". Univision was once strictly a Mexican television station, but then changed into a "hispanic" station so they could attract more viewers nationwide and get more advertising dollars. Local organizations also changed their name from Mexican to "hispanic".

- The activists groups started lobbying the federal government to create a new "hispanic" category, claiming that they were being underrepresented and were deserving of federal benefits.

But what is a hispanic?

- The architects of "hispanic" identity created a deliberately ambiguous definition of hispanic, one that minimized their differences, so that they could contrive the largest possible numbers and demand the most money.

- To legitimize this new idea, dishonest "hispanic" historians started to write a revisionist "hispanic" history, by going back in time and labeling anybody they wanted "hispanic" (anybody with a spanish name) even though that is not what they were considered before then. They contrived the narrative of "hispanics" as a downtrodden minority group with 400 years of history in the U.S. This is the history that we hear today.

- Univision helped to promote the concept of hispanic identity through its programming.

The Government conceded.

- After years of lobbying on the behalf of "hispanics", president Nixon gave in to activists groups and officially signed an order creating the category. In exchange, the "hispanics" promised that they would be a huge demographic voting block that would support him politically.

- The census bureau created the category that was to begin in 1980.

- Millions of people, who had previously only identified with their nationality (and racially as white), suddenly became "hispanic" over night, still not understanding the term. Cubans were still saying things like "What is a hispanic? What do we have to do with Mexicans?!"

- Through the media, they continued to promote the concept and convinced people to identify as "hispanic" in advertisement and telethons.

1980 was the year people officially became "hispanic".

- This is when Americans first started hearing the term, and it did not become commonly known until the late 80's


It's like "Hispanics" always existed

Post: #2

(10-26-2015 09:25 AM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

Before 1970, the US Census Bureau classified Mexican, Cuban and Puerto Rican immigrants as whites. Each community of Latin American origin would go by their nationality and by the region where they lived in the United States. But all that changed in the seventies, as activists began lobbying the US Census Bureau to create a broad, national category that included all these communities. The result was the creation of the term “Hispanic”, first introduced in the US Census in 1970.

The story of hispanics:

What were "hispanics" considered before the Civil Rigthts movement?

- Nobody before the 1970's was ever "Hispanic" or "Latino". No one was ever called "hispanic" and no one ever identified as "hispanic". The concept that all spanish-speaking or spanish-surnamed people constitute an ethnic group did not exist.

- Mexicans, Puerto-Ricans, and Cubans were unrelated immigrant groups who did not identify with each other and were never statistically grouped. Nearly all (90%) were considered racially white, with the exception being those that were obviously of african ancestry and were considered black. No one was "latino/hispanic".

How did they identify?

- They identified as white. In the context of the segregated South, Mexicans and Cubans in particular always insisted that they were white. They also did not identify with each other at all; a Mexican had nothing to do with a Cuban.

Did Hispanics experience discrimination?

- There were never any laws, ever in U.S History, in any state, that discriminated against or excluded Mexican Americans, and much less "Spanish" people or Spanish-surnamed people. Stories of legal segregation/exclusion are almost completely invented. No, the people we call "hispanic" today were never subject to Jim Crow or any other discriminatory race laws from the past. They were always permitted to go to white-only segregated schools, they could vote, hold public office, fought in white units of the army, could marry other whites, and they were not on the back of any buses.

- The discrimination that they did experience was defacto (not legally institutionalized). Legally, they had all of the rights of other white people, but socially they were considered "other" white people for being culturally different.

Examples of "other" white groups:
The Irish
Jews
Italians
Polish people
Mexicans
Cubans
Puerto Ricans.

- like the Irish and like Jews, Mexicans faced a fair amount of day-to-day discrimination and in certain social contexts some people did not consider them white. However, this discrimination was random and not consistent; officially they were always considered white and not distinguished from "Anglos" or other European nationalities.

- Cubans, Puerto Ricans and other unrelated Spanish speaking groups faced little discrimination. There are very few anecdotes. Cubans were unquestionably white, and Puerto Ricans didn't live anywhere that was legally segregated.

Did Hispanics play a role in the civil rights movement?

- No.

- Mexican organizations always distanced themselves from the black civil rights movement because they did not want to conflate themselves with minority groups. They fought their own battles, and their argument was always that they were white. In every court case that involves Mexican Americans, the argument was that discrimination against Mexicans was wrong and unlawful because they were of the white race. That isn't a civil rights argument.

How and why did they become minorities?

- After the civil rights movement, after all the legal battles had been won, things changed dramatically. Suddenly, being white wasn't a privilege anymore. What's more, the government was giving out money to "discriminated minority" groups (blacks). This is when Mexicans started saying that they were not white.

- Their argument was that even though they were always officially white, and even though they had always identified as white, they weren't treated the same as other whites and therefore were deserving of these new benefits.

- The first non-white identity Mexicans created was "Chicano", an identity that emphasized their indigenous ancestry. Before the civil rights movement they insisted that they were Spanish, to affirm their whiteness. "Chicano" activism began in the late sixties, emulating the black civil rights movement.

- They lobbied local goverments to get Mexicans classified as non-white, and became minorities overnight. Many people in the South West were confused when this happened.

Then what?

- They wanted federal minorities benefits. But when they went to Washington to demand this, they were told no for two reasons:

1) They were white.

The federal government still classified them as whites, and told them that the new programs were not intended for white people.

- First they lobbied the Feds to create a new non-white "mexican" category for them (ironic since 20 years earlier there was an attempt to make a mexican category that they protested), but the feds refused.

2) They were a regional group.

They were told that since Mexicans were concentrated in the South West, they were a regional issue and should take up their problems with local governments.

The Solution (the origin of "hispanic"):

- A group of people sat down and brainstormed, and came up with a solution. They decided to project themselves as a national group by claiming that all spanish-speaking people were really one ethnic group. Some woman, Grace Flores Hughes, coined the term "hispanic".

- They started to communicate with Cubans in Florida and Puerto Ricans in New York about creating this new National Hispanic group, but early attempts were not successful. Prs and Cubans both stated that the groups didn't have anything in common. Puerto Rican activists were focused on the independence movement, and Cubans were focused on foreign policy with the Castro Regime. Neither groups cared much about immigration or the plight of Mexican migrant workers.

- Despite early failures at unifying the disparate immigrant groups, they were persistent. They started to collaborate with local media ("Univision"), to spread the word about "hispanics". Univision was once strictly a Mexican television station, but then changed into a "hispanic" station so they could attract more viewers nationwide and get more advertising dollars. Local organizations also changed their name from Mexican to "hispanic".

- The activists groups started lobbying the federal government to create a new "hispanic" category, claiming that they were being underrepresented and were deserving of federal benefits.

But what is a hispanic?

- The architects of "hispanic" identity created a deliberately ambiguous definition of hispanic, one that minimized their differences, so that they could contrive the largest possible numbers and demand the most money.

- To legitimize this new idea, dishonest "hispanic" historians started to write a revisionist "hispanic" history, by going back in time and labeling anybody they wanted "hispanic" (anybody with a spanish name) even though that is not what they were considered before then. They contrived the narrative of "hispanics" as a downtrodden minority group with 400 years of history in the U.S. This is the history that we hear today.

- Univision helped to promote the concept of hispanic identity through its programming.

The Government conceded.

- After years of lobbying on the behalf of "hispanics", president Nixon gave in to activists groups and officially signed an order creating the category. In exchange, the "hispanics" promised that they would be a huge demographic voting block that would support him politically.

- The census bureau created the category that was to begin in 1980.

- Millions of people, who had previously only identified with their nationality (and racially as white), suddenly became "hispanic" over night, still not understanding the term. Cubans were still saying things like "What is a hispanic? What do we have to do with Mexicans?!"

- Through the media, they continued to promote the concept and convinced people to identify as "hispanic" in advertisement and telethons.

1980 was the year people officially became "hispanic".

- This is when Americans first started hearing the term, and it did not become commonly known until the late 80's


It's like "Hispanics" always existed

As always ..."follow the money"

Very informative post. It's interesting how society in general makes no disctinction between "race" and "ethnicity" as if they are the same

Post: #3

What a load of crap.

White refers to the phenotype coming from Europe, and originally the Caucasus. It doesn't refer to hybrid phenotypes thereof with Amerindian mongoloids (originally from Siberia). Sure, 'hispanic' may not be the best term ('latino' is probably a bit better), but technically neither is 'Asian' (Saudis, Iranians, Indians and Chinese are all 'Asian').

You can't just self-identify as a member of a group. The group must agree. And for the same reason the Bruce Jenner is permanently and irrevocably a male, a hispanic/latino/Amerindian-white mestizo can only call himself 'white' if you can't pick him out of a crowd of other 'whites'.

Post: #4

Well technically they are white, because Hispanics are half Spanish. They have white blood in them.

But we're talking about America here, where the one drop rule prevails. The one drop rule states that any person with 1 Black ancestor regardless of how many white family members the person has is still Black. Same is applied today to the Hispanics.

Take Obama for example. He has a white mother. He's half white, yet socially he's not looked at that way, but just a Black man. Till this day, according to 23andme, African Americans actually have 10 to 20% European blood in them because slave masters would routinely sleep with their slaves.

Its all about maintaining power and control. Like PapayaTapper said, follow the money. Its a privilege being white in America, and not everybody can be white. I know the phrase "white privilege" is not popular around here, but in this case, its absolutely true. Irish, Italians and Germans were never considered white when they first came and faced extreme discrimination similar to the Hispanics now.

Americans have a different concept of what white is than the rest of the world. In many places in Europe, Asia and Africa, Mexicans will be considered white by many.

Interesting interview with Louis CK who is a White Mexican, talks about the issue of white Mexicans.

Post: #5

What’s considered “white” in the US has changed over the years. Originally it was WASPs (British, Dutch, Germans), then other races who were considered outsiders were assimilated into “white”, such as Italians, Greeks and other Southern Europeans. As recently as the 1950s Jews were considered “other” in the US, now they are white.

In the UK WASPs are considered “white”, whereas other Europeans were considered foreigners. In the 1960s there was a lot of anti Irish discrimination.

“Asian-American” is also a bullshit identity- it puts South Asians together with East Asians. What the fuck does an Indian have in common with a Korean?

Quote:the U.S. Census definition and the Asian American Studies departments of many universities consider those of East, South or Southeast Asian descent with or without epicanthic eyefolds to be "Asian".In the US Census, people who originate from the indigenous peoples of the Far East, Indian subcontinent, and Southeast Asia are classified as part of the Asian race; while those who originate from the indigenous peoples of North Asia (Russians, Siberians), Central Asia (Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmens etc.), the Middle East (diaspora Jews, Turks, Persians, West Asian Arabs etc.), and the Caucasus (Georgians, Armenians, Azeris) are classified as "White".

Speaking as a person from UK, I find it hilarious that people from the middle east are considered “white” in the US. However, there’s plenty of self-hating middle easterners in the US who are willing to go along with it.

Post: #6

(10-26-2015 01:07 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  What a load of crap.

White refers to the phenotype coming from Europe, and originally the Caucasus. It doesn't refer to hybrid phenotypes thereof with Amerindian mongoloids (originally from Siberia). Sure, 'hispanic' may not be the best term ('latino' is probably a bit better), but technically neither is 'Asian' (Saudis, Iranians, Indians and Chinese are all 'Asian').

You can't just self-identify as a member of a group. The group must agree. And for the same reason the Bruce Jenner is permanently and irrevocably a male, a hispanic/latino/Amerindian-white mestizo can only call himself 'white' if you can't pick him out of a crowd of other 'whites'.

But Hispanics aren't "hybrids".

Would you agree that Spanish or people from Spain are European?

If so, then all Latinos are European because they have Southern European blood in them.

Post: #7

^ 'Hispanics' generally are hybrids. When people think of a hispanic they think of a latin american mestizo, not a blonde spaniard. Like my 'Asian' example, english ascribes inaccurate meanings to words all the time, doesn't mean that meaning doesn't come from somewhere. In this case, racial distinctiveness.

And no, the one drop rule is bullshit and doesn't make sense because you have to arbitrarily ascribe superpower to one drop over the other.

Post: #8

(10-26-2015 08:23 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  And no, the one drop rule is bullshit and doesn't make sense because you have to arbitrarily ascribe superpower to one drop over the other.

And that's exactly why it exists.

I dunno if I want to wade into the rest of this debate, but "creating" people out of thin air is a political scientists/historian/politician stock and trade.

Serious students of this game should read Imagined Communities by Benedict Anderson.

WIA

Post: #9

(10-26-2015 08:23 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  ^ 'Hispanics' generally are hybrids. When people think of a hispanic they think of a latin american mestizo, not a blonde spaniard. Like my 'Asian' example, english ascribes inaccurate meanings to words all the time, doesn't mean that meaning doesn't come from somewhere. In this case, racial distinctiveness.

That's a big chunk of Steve Sailer's output over the past years - pointing out that the hugely successful people, who get all the benefits from being a minority, often don't have a drop of 'native' blood in them.

Carlos Slim, Mexican, "richest man in the world", media baron and largest shareholder in the NYT etc. He's a celebrated 'Hispanic' success story. Both his parents are Lebanese immigrants, he wouldn't look out of place if he was dropped into a Spanish village.

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold

Post: #10

Plenty of Hispanics look white but white in America refers to having an English, easy to pronounce last name and European only ancestry. Strange indeed. Only in America and I guess Australia Phoenix.

Post: #11

The only correct definition of Hispanic is from the island of Hispanola meaning Dominicans and Hatians. I laugh every time people use it as a race because it is not a race. Its an island with multiple races.

Mexicans and Puerto Ricans etc are not Hispanic.

Post: #12

(10-27-2015 12:13 PM)offthereservation Wrote:  The only correct definition of Hispanic is from the island of Hispanola meaning Dominicans and Hatians. I laugh every time people use it as a race because it is not a race. Its an island with multiple races.

Mexicans and Puerto Ricans etc are not Hispanic.

Haha, Americans are the ones who invented the term. You should ask them.


America always seems to want to do things differently than the rest of the world. The metric system, the calendar, the temperature, race, etc...

Post: #13

This thread looks like it will be interesting.
Especially considering the election year, immigration problems.

Both Blacks and Hispanics are minorities...But now there are areas of the U.S.where Hispanics are pushing blacks out of the neighborhood.

I love me some cholas though.

Post: #14

(10-27-2015 12:13 PM)offthereservation Wrote:  The only correct definition of Hispanic is from the island of Hispanola meaning Dominicans and Hatians. I laugh every time people use it as a race because it is not a race. Its an island with multiple races.

Mexicans and Puerto Ricans etc are not Hispanic.

That's absurd, and you are the only person I've ever heard make this claim.

Hispanic is the anglicized form of the Latin Hispania, which means "Spain". The term Hispanic refers to anything Spanish, or a Latin American country/person that speaks Spanish.

Mexicans and Puerto Ricans are Hispanic and Latino.

Post: #15

(10-27-2015 01:25 PM)EL CHAPO Wrote:  America always seems to want to do things differently than the rest of the world. The metric system, the calendar, the temperature, race, etc...

I just wanted to add also the drinking age, "football" being played with helmets and pads, and no official language.

Post: #16

Post: #17

Post: #18

(10-28-2015 09:15 AM)offthereservation Wrote:  

Very true. Most Cubans self identify as white

Post: #19

A lot of “Cultural” stuff in the US is just an excuse for the corporations to make money. I had a Mexican (from Mexico) ex boss and he told me that in Mexico, apart from the region in which it happened, nobody gives a fuck about Cinco de Mayo:

Quote:The holiday crossed over from California into the rest of the United States in the 1950s and 1960s but did not gain popularity until the 1980s when marketers, especially beer companies, capitalized on the celebratory nature of the day and began to promote it. It grew in popularity and evolved into a celebration of Mexican culture and heritage, first in areas with large Mexican-American populations, like Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and San Jose.

Hannukah has also been changed for Jewish kids in the US to get gifts at Xmas.

Quote:In North America especially, Hanukkah gained increased importance with many Jewish families in the latter part of the 20th century, including among large numbers of secular Jews, who wanted a Jewish alternative to the Christmas celebrations that often overlap with Hanukkah. Though it was traditional among Ashkenazi Jews to give "gelt" or money to children during Hanukkah, in many families this has been supplemented with other gifts, so that Jewish children can enjoy gifts just as their Christmas-celebrating peers do.

While Hanukkah is a relatively minor Jewish holiday, as indicated by the lack of religious restrictions on work other than a few minutes after lighting the candles, in North America, Hanukkah in the 21st century has taken a place equal to Passover as a symbol of Jewish identity. Both the Israeli and North American versions of Hanukkah emphasize resistance, focusing on some combination of national liberation and religious freedom as the defining meaning of the holiday.

Why do you think the corporations are so pro gay nowadays? It’s not that they’ve suddenly grown a conscience, they just see dollar bills. Gays tend to have a high disposable income.

There's a lot of media targeting toward Latinos/Hispanics nowadays because they're a growing population.

Growing up in the UK, we never grouped all the Hispanics under the same group. Since soccer is big, the average British person at least knows the names of many South and Central American countries, so people from that part of the world tend to be more identified by their actual country.

Post: #20

It is common knowledge that Cinco De Mayo is an American thing.

Post: #21

(10-28-2015 01:22 PM)Brian Shima Wrote:  It is common knowledge that Cinco De Mayo is an American thing.

It's Mexican as well, but Diez y Seis Septiembe (Sept 16) is way more important and celebrated.

WIA

Post: #22

(10-28-2015 01:48 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(10-28-2015 01:22 PM)Brian Shima Wrote:  It is common knowledge that Cinco De Mayo is an American thing.

It's Mexican as well, but Diez y Seis Septiembe (Sept 16) is way more important and celebrated.

WIA

Its not widely known in Mexico though (cinco de mayo).

Americans celebrating cinco de mayo, would be the equivalent of Mexico celebrating the Battle of Yorktown and eating hotdogs, and cheeseburgers. Totally odd and weird.

Mexicans still find it odd that Americans celebrate cinco de mayo. The only Mexicans who would know or celebrate this holiday would be Mexican-Americans or Mexicans who have been in the U.S. for a while.

Post: #23

I'm Hispanic. Genetically I'm about half-white. My parents are from different countries in Latin America and I don't identify strongly with either of them though I know Latin culture quite well and understand all the little implicit things that most people miss out if they're not from a culture. I don't consider myself white but I don't consider myself non-white either. My wife is white and my daughter passes as white.

I absolutely hate when I get targeted by ads just because I'm Hispanic.

Post: #24

I can see why people decided to group Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans and Cubans as the same group or 'race' called hispanic. Even though I can also see how these people have a lot of racial differences.

However I cannot see how brown skinned, black haired Mexicans were ever considered 'white' by anyone. Apart from the minority of white Mexicans obviously, I don't believe that, they consider themselves their own race.

Post: #25

(10-26-2015 01:07 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  What a load of crap.

White refers to the phenotype coming from Europe, and originally the Caucasus. It doesn't refer to hybrid phenotypes thereof with Amerindian mongoloids (originally from Siberia). Sure, 'hispanic' may not be the best term ('latino' is probably a bit better), but technically neither is 'Asian' (Saudis, Iranians, Indians and Chinese are all 'Asian').

You can't just self-identify as a member of a group. The group must agree. And for the same reason the Bruce Jenner is permanently and irrevocably a male, a hispanic/latino/Amerindian-white mestizo can only call himself 'white' if you can't pick him out of a crowd of other 'whites'.

You're making the erroneous assertion that "hispanic" is a synonym for mestizo, it isn't. It's a catch all term that groups all spanish speaking populations from mexican mestizos, white cubans, black colombians and japanese-peruvians(among others) as "hispanic".

It's akin to fabricating a "germanic" ethno grouping where american/canadian whites,blacks and (east) asians are grouped together on the count of being native english speakers from an anglophone country.