Post: #26

I'm partially in agreement with OP. 9/11 means different things to different people. For me it was a loss of innocence and an insight into the extreme tyranny that exists in this world. What started out as blindly following the narrative (middle easterners hate our freedom) morphed, over the course of years, into a more paranoid worldview of the new World Order.

Where I'm in agreement with OP is in the way my fellow citizens express their patriotism. Patriotism is pride in one's country. To denounce our political leaders as treacherous conspirators is not un-patriotic, in fact it's the opposite. It is the love of this country and its citizens that drives me to desire justice against GW, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Ashcroft, etc

9/11, never forget. Never forget what? How we allowed thousands of innocent citizens to be murdered and then engage in two financially debilitating wars, so that Larry Silverstein and Halliburton can collect a few billion dollars? Never forget that the "collapse" of WTC 1 and 2 completely defy physics? Never forget the suppression of evidence from the Pentagon attack? Never forget the 2200+ architects and engineers that think the offical 9/11 report is absolute garbage?

Well I can't speak for other people, but I sure as shit haven't forgotten.
It doesn't take much for a cynical bastard like me to keep these things in the forefront of my consciousness.

I saw a fellow forum member on here write an extremely thoughtful post on his FB that talked about the decline of American society since 9/11 and someone called him out for politicizing 9/11. Well, what the hell is this about? Do we just sit around in a moment of silence for those that lost their lives that day and in the two pointless wars after? Fuck that, that's for cancer patients. This is conspiracy, treason, and murder. Of course it's political, people want revenge!

Sorry if this is a derail, as I believe there is already a 9/11 truther thread, but it's something I feel very strongly about and I don't talk about it very often.

And one other thing, I have an honest question for you guys that accept the official account and don't believe there is any conspiracy:

How do you explain building 7?

Post: #27

Regarding 9/11, I got this explanation from a friend of mine who has a history in working operations at the TS/SCI level. To roughly quote him.

"You Americans are like fuckin' robots! What if it actually happened, but someone else was paid to make sure it happened?". He then started ranting about Mossad and clammed up immediately once we started asking questions about what he was implying.

It's one of those situations where I would have dismissed it had it been literally anyone other than the dude I was hearing it from.

Post: #28

(09-14-2015 12:02 PM)AFS Wrote:  Yes - thank you. I thought I was the only one who felt this way. For people who lost family and loved ones, I can understand why they remember. But for everybody else, exactly WHY are we remembering this event? 30,000 people die in car accidents every year. Totally preventable accidents because most people are too stupid to learn how to drive properly - where is the outrage on that?

The means of death is more important psychologically than the numbers of death. There are far more dangerous jobs than a soldier or a police officer or a fireman. Take jobs such as Iron Working, Lumber Jacking, Crop Dusting and off shore fishing. Any one of the latter jobs have more deaths per a thousand people than all the former mentioned jobs combined. The difference is one gets paid for the risk and sacrifice of an unknown people and the other risks his life to put food on the table.

Keep in mind two comparable differences. The mass starvation of the Chinese under Mao and the death of the Jews via the holocaust. More Chinese starved to death than Jews that died in the holocaust. I believe the number is 40 million versus 6 million. The two events teach different lessons. The Chinese case is the result of misallocation of resources and a lesson on the failures of centralized planning. The other case is the active destruction of human life and the lessons on how human beings can fail to uphold moral ideas and virtues.

(09-14-2015 12:02 PM)AFS Wrote:  Are we remembering the fact the terrorists attacked us? Why is this worth remembering? We were attacked by a terrorist organization we trained ourselves and because of our retarded middle east foreign policy. The CIA and the president all knew the terrorists were here and what they planned (this is not conspiracy theory shit, it was in the NYTimes and other papers), and they let it happen for political purposes.

Literally every day Bush would get a memo that a plane would fly into a building, and they ignored it. Then they obstructed the 9/11 commission until it was a total farce. If people really wanted to remember the "tragedy" of 9/11, why didn't they impeach Bush and throw him in jail? Why did they elect him a second time? Obviously, they don't give a shit about the root causes of 9/11 or whose to blame, they just want to feel good about being angry!

I am sure the President gets thousands of memos every single day. By the time you have 6 months of experience as president, Memos start to become noise. Imagine the number of threats that come in every single day of every kind of scale?


As far as impeachment, the conditions for impeach comes as follows as according to Article 2 section 4 of the united states constitution,
"The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors."

Please explain the events on which he shall be impeached?

As for why he got re-elected is pretty easy. Gore vs Bush was actually a tough election. He had to be popular to compete to get voted. Keep in mind that Bush vs Kerry was really Bush vs Anti-Bush. There are only so many people who are going to vote based on the repulsion of a candidate. You need to be the type people want to gravitate to.

Post: #29

(09-14-2015 01:18 PM)PolymathGuru Wrote:  Please explain the events on which he shall be impeached?

They allowed the attack to occur for political gain. They knew exactly what to do afterwards- Patriot Act, Iraq War, etc. They made billions on it.

Not to mention the day of there were "training exercises" that simulated exactly the same attack as 9/11, throwing US defenses into disarray because they had no idea what was a real threat or not.

Look up Operation Northwoods if you don't believe the US government is capable of letting thousands of Americans die for political gain.

Sorry, we don't have an audio recording of Cheney saying "let it happen" or "this is the opportunity we have been looking for," and we never will.

But guess what: there is no direct evidence linking Hitler to the holocaust either. But nobody thinks he isn't responsible.

The connections between what happened before, during, and after 9/11 are too clear to ignore. And that's before you get into any of the 9/11 truth stuff the media won't report on.

Clear cut case of treason for me.

Post: #30

(09-14-2015 12:20 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  9/11 should be remembered as the day that the population in general stopped trusting the government. They were either in on it, or totally incompetent. Thats what you should never forget.

You're right. I guess that's why the phrase "remember 9/11" pisses me off. When most people say it, I wonder - what exactly do they want to remember? I'm totally for introspection on this event as far as the political causes and consequences, and holding those responsible accountable. However, I think when most people remember this day, they are doing it out of completely misplaced ignorance.

For most people remember 9/11 = "remember when the terrorists attacked us and we showed them how awesome Amerka is!"

Post: #31

OP, I lost a HS friend that day (North Tower) ... and I'm tired of all the commemorating too. Have a moment of silence in the morning of that day and be done with it. Let's move on with our lives.

Post: #32

(09-14-2015 10:54 AM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  "It is the doom of men that they forget."

Ever hear an old adage about forgetting the past?

It is the doom of men for their works to crumble. There is frost in spring or blight in summer and men fail in their purpose. . . but not in their seed, which can spring up again in places unlooked for.

Post: #33

It wasn't just a terrorist attack which killed thousands and still affects many more to this day, but was more of a watershed moment for the US and Western nations.

You have to look at what was then and what the world is now and you could stem it from that one day which stirred a giant into action. The US wanted someone to kill and whoever laughed and cheered to feel true fear.

Remember those B52s carpet bombing those mountain ranges in Afghanistan? The thousands of special forces, rangers and marines flooding the area looking for Bin Laden? There was enough momentum from this one event to go into two countries and meet its enemy head on in the form of Al'Quaeda. They even created one of the most powerful Acts outside of a full-on war with the Patriot Act

People forget 9/11 started with enormous momentum and only now has started to run on fumes. People are bored with having to deal with persistent, over-zealous anti-terror tactics and doctrine. You cannot even take fluids onto flights anymore. It won't be long before trains suffer the same fate if those lone wolfs have their way.

Being sick of people banging on about 9/11 for the sake of social media attention isn't a valid reason to not remember it or the people lost. I wouldn't call it cold hearted but more along the lines of ignorance.

Post: #34

I can agree with most of what you say, and my questions about why the attack happened haven't been satisfied with answers, but why do you think it was impossible for mid-level structural damage to collapse two of the tallest buildings at the time? The only buildings taller existed in Indonesia, Taiwan, UAE, China and Saudi Arabia.

I saw the destruction sight in person before any reconstruction had started. There were buildings that looked to be impossibly distant to have taken damage from falling debris, but blocks away I saw large piece of buildings gone like Godzilla had came there. It is believable to me that 'building 7' was destroyed, so were two other buildings in the vicinity that were trade center buildings, according to the visitor placards. I understand skepticism and I think it's allowed people to not be led by malevolent 9/11 propaganda when a few make duty of debunking war rhetoric and such. I just come to a loss when people suggest that in such proportions, the steel couldn't be jerked down. I'm not shutting the idea down, but I remain unconvinced by others only voicing, "it can't!".

Some forum members were discussing information acceleration in either the other 9/11 thread or the Europe one. Looking at all this together, I don't think our brains are desperately trying to keep up with information flow, but that the US populous is accustomed to a crushing mass information to action timeline.

When large scale events take place, the experts give the public a general reaction of, "this is what we know, this is what we are going to do, if you aren't in-the-know catch up". This is a major force behind bad, free-wheeling policy like the patriot act, the Iraq invasion and snuffing out 'rogue' nations. I see that as a cause for the public information malaise and sense of participation effectiveness.

(09-14-2015 01:07 PM)Veloce Wrote:  I'm partially in agreement with OP. 9/11 means different things to different people. For me it was a loss of innocence and an insight into the extreme tyranny that exists in this world. What started out as blindly following the narrative (middle easterners hate our freedom) morphed, over the course of years, into a more paranoid worldview of the new World Order.

Where I'm in agreement with OP is in the way my fellow citizens express their patriotism. Patriotism is pride in one's country. To denounce our political leaders as treacherous conspirators is not un-patriotic, in fact it's the opposite. It is the love of this country and its citizens that drives me to desire justice against GW, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Ashcroft, etc

9/11, never forget. Never forget what? How we allowed thousands of innocent citizens to be murdered and then engage in two financially debilitating wars, so that Larry Silverstein and Halliburton can collect a few billion dollars? Never forget that the "collapse" of WTC 1 and 2 completely defy physics? Never forget the suppression of evidence from the Pentagon attack? Never forget the 2200+ architects and engineers that think the offical 9/11 report is absolute garbage?

Well I can't speak for other people, but I sure as shit haven't forgotten.
It doesn't take much for a cynical bastard like me to keep these things in the forefront of my consciousness.

I saw a fellow forum member on here write an extremely thoughtful post on his FB that talked about the decline of American society since 9/11 and someone called him out for politicizing 9/11. Well, what the hell is this about? Do we just sit around in a moment of silence for those that lost their lives that day and in the two pointless wars after? Fuck that, that's for cancer patients. This is conspiracy, treason, and murder. Of course it's political, people want revenge!

Sorry if this is a derail, as I believe there is already a 9/11 truther thread, but it's something I feel very strongly about and I don't talk about it very often.

And one other thing, I have an honest question for you guys that accept the official account and don't believe there is any conspiracy:

How do you explain building 7?

Post: #35

----------------------------------------

Post: #36

(09-14-2015 11:56 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  Remember this:

1840s: Remember the Alamo!

1890s: Remember the Maine! [Ship that was blown up in Cuba]

1917: Remember the Lusitania!

1942: Remember Peal Harbor!

2001--now: Remember 9/11!

All of those just reeks too much of military glory hunting. Glory hunters.

I'd be like:
Glory hunters are like:

Post: #37

Your're tired of it? Well, college students have sure forgotten it already, to got by this brief interview query:





(Of course, I'm supposing that they learned something about the 9/11 attacks, in the first place.)

Post: #38

(09-14-2015 03:59 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  Remember those B52s carpet bombing those mountain ranges in Afghanistan? The thousands of special forces, rangers and marines flooding the area looking for Bin Laden? There was enough momentum from this one event to go into two countries and meet its enemy head on in the form of Al'Quaeda. They even created one of the most powerful Acts outside of a full-on war with the Patriot Act

People forget 9/11 started with enormous momentum and only now has started to run on fumes. People are bored with having to deal with persistent, over-zealous anti-terror tactics and doctrine. You cannot even take fluids onto flights anymore. It won't be long before trains suffer the same fate if those lone wolfs have their way.

Going into Afghanistan was the right move but done all wrong. The shock and awe you refer to was awesome, and sent the right message. The US should have gone in for 2 weeks, destroyed the Taliban, left a note saying "don't make us come back here" and pulled out without leaving a crumb behind, none of this 'nation building' bs.

I read recently that within the first 48hrs of going into Afghanistan, there was a Predator drone circling over top of Mullah Omar, but the unit that found him couldn't find someone high-ranking enough to give the kill order, so he got away - some bureaucrat in a uniform didn't want to make the decision.

I remember 9/11 and it was like a kick in the gut, but within a very short period of time it became yet another loathesome celebration of victimhood; all the things that could have been done to make sure "never again" are taboo to even mention. So yes, I can certainly sympathize with the idea that some people are sick of it all.

Post: #39

(09-14-2015 06:43 PM)Tim in real life Wrote:  All of those just reeks too much of military glory hunting. Glory hunters.

I'd be like:
Glory hunters are like:

Well said.

Just make sure you avoid the Glory Hole Hunters.

There's a difference.

Post: #40

(09-14-2015 02:43 PM)AFS Wrote:  

(09-14-2015 01:18 PM)PolymathGuru Wrote:  Please explain the events on which he shall be impeached?

They allowed the attack to occur for political gain. They knew exactly what to do afterwards- Patriot Act, Iraq War, etc. They made billions on it.

Not to mention the day of there were "training exercises" that simulated exactly the same attack as 9/11, throwing US defenses into disarray because they had no idea what was a real threat or not.

Look up Operation Northwoods if you don't believe the US government is capable of letting thousands of Americans die for political gain.

Sorry, we don't have an audio recording of Cheney saying "let it happen" or "this is the opportunity we have been looking for," and we never will.

But guess what: there is no direct evidence linking Hitler to the holocaust either. But nobody thinks he isn't responsible.

The connections between what happened before, during, and after 9/11 are too clear to ignore. And that's before you get into any of the 9/11 truth stuff the media won't report on.

Clear cut case of treason for me.

I looked at the wiki page for Operation Northwoods and it is pretty mind blowing. I look at something like that in various ways. Perhaps communism was so destructive and so overwhelming that they were running out of ideas and had to come up with any idea how to stop it. When it comes to extremely top secret issues and an esoteric knowledge of how the world really operates outside the "matrix" maybe they thought that ultimately this would result in many more lives being saved by halting the advance of communism.

When I lived in Chile, there were people that had an obvious, and not entirely unjustifiable, grudge against Americans for the overthrow of their democratically elected leader and then implanting a friendly dictator who killed thousands. However, many Chileans were absolutely grateful for Pinochet and said the country would have gone to hell without him and praise the U.S. for helping to get him into power. I'm not a fan of interfering in the affairs of other nations at all but I know that my view of the world is limited, however educated and well travelled I may be. Maybe Kissinger saw the big, long-term picture and did what needed to be done.

Post: #41

Man, the worst thing to come out of 9/11 is the annoying Truth movement.

Chomsky shuts down one of these clowns (starts at about 0:52):





"people spend an hour on the internet and think they understand physics. That's not how it works"

Post: #42

Call me an asshole, but at this point I just mock 9/11. Almost 3,000 people died over 14 years ago. I'm sure the U.S murders way more civilians every month in the Middle East. What makes an American civilian life more valuable than someone who happened to be born in the Middle East?




I texted my girlfriend "happy holidays" last Friday based on that scene. She got the joke immediately.

Knock knock.
Who's there?
9/11.
9/11 who?
You said you'd never forget!

And so on...

Post: #43

I can't stand "see something say something" it's way overused.

Post: #44

So, let me get this straight: it's bad to mourn over something that happened a little more than 10 years ago? I understand that this a "controversial" website but that isn't an excuse to be a prick. People died. It was fucking awful. Let's not dwell on it, but I think a bit of grief once in a while is healthy. We aren't soulless automatons who spend 100% of our time fucking bitches, making money and plotting our "escape" from the matrix. Give me a fucking break.

Post: #45

(09-14-2015 11:11 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Remember right after it happened how patriotic everyone was? I could've sworn I saw "God Bless the USA" on every fast food, gas station, bill board, whatever for a solid 2 years.

In similar fashion, Fox Sports baseball broadcasts replaced "Take Me Out To the Ballgame" with "God Bless America", a change that continues to this day.

Post: #46

Ya know, when I see something that bothers me or I don't like I push the hide button or just ignore it. The last thing I would do is draw more attention to it.

Which leads a guy to believe you simply want attention and to find others to bitch about this with.

I was in middle school during this. I saw the second plane hit the tower. Even then i had a sinkng feeling from seeing my teachers reaction and knowing shit was real. The idea of an attack from across the world was unfathomable at that time.

Post: #47

(09-14-2015 08:57 PM)Fortis Wrote:  So, let me get this straight: it's bad to mourn over something that happened a little more than 10 years ago? I understand that this a "controversial" website but that isn't an excuse to be a prick. People died. It was fucking awful. Let's not dwell on it, but I think a bit of grief once in a while is healthy. We aren't soulless automatons who spend 100% of our time fucking bitches, making money and plotting our "escape" from the matrix. Give me a fucking break.

No one is saying that. It's obviously awful when innocent people die. But put it in perspective. Every year over a quarter million kids die innocently in car crashes (source:www.npr.org). The U.S government has bombed hundreds of thousands of civilians since 9/11. People still act like 9/11 was the worst thing to happen to our generation.

Nothing against the victims of 9/11 but most victims only get a cross on the side of the road if they're lucky.


Edit: This post ironically went through at 9:11 pm.

Post: #48

Maybe it's because I was asleep when it actually happened, but I've never given a lot of thought to those that died. I woke around 10 or 10:30 because I only had one early afternoon class that day. Like always I got up, showered, dressed, etc, without turning on the television. My girlfriend was still asleep. I got in the car and I noticed none of the radio stations were playing music, there was a lot of talking, but not much that you could make sense of. As I started to put pieces together, I called my girlfriend and told her to see WTF was going on. She was telling about the shit she was seeing, like people jumping out of windows and whatnot. By that time however, they were just replays. I got to school and most classes had been cancelled. Of course the one class I was in had not been cancelled. The professor was trying to assure us that being in class was more important than an event that would forever change the world. As one would expect, being in class was definitely a mailed in performance. When I got home and finally had access to a television I saw for myself. I was overwhelmed with feelings of sadness at that point, but not for the people who died that day. I didn't know any of them. I thought it was terrible they died, but I'm simply not one to cry over a stranger. My sadness stemmed from the fact that I had witnessed something that would change the world. And it was not changed for the better. Everything I had ever known, as I had known it, was somehow sealed off and frozen in time. Everything from that day forward would be impacted in some way by the events of 9/11 for years to come. I knew it that very day. I even told my girlfriend that evening, that this would be exploited by those in power for years to come. It would take us down a dark path and if and when we emerged, we would no longer recognize ourselves. I think in large part I was correct. It was a surreal day and I'll never forget it.

With that said, it's not at the forefront of my thoughts. I have to actively think about it, if I feel some need to remember (and that rarely happens). But even to this day, when I look at the timeline of my own life, there are two sections. The time before 9/11, and the time after 9/11.

Post: #49

I'm tired of Labor Day. How do people celebrate work by not working?

Post: #50

(09-14-2015 09:11 PM)wi30 Wrote:  

(09-14-2015 08:57 PM)Fortis Wrote:  So, let me get this straight: it's bad to mourn over something that happened a little more than 10 years ago? I understand that this a "controversial" website but that isn't an excuse to be a prick. People died. It was fucking awful. Let's not dwell on it, but I think a bit of grief once in a while is healthy. We aren't soulless automatons who spend 100% of our time fucking bitches, making money and plotting our "escape" from the matrix. Give me a fucking break.

No one is saying that. It's obviously awful when innocent people die. But put it in perspective. Every year over a quarter million kids die innocently in car crashes (source:www.npr.org). The U.S government has bombed hundreds of thousands of civilians since 9/11. People still act like 9/11 was the worst thing to happen to our generation.

Nothing against the victims of 9/11 but most victims only get a cross on the side of the road if they're lucky.


Edit: This post ironically went through at 9:11 pm.

I hate when common folk make these unqualified reservations. I'd ask for your citations, but I'll probably get a 9/11 loose change blog also. The US is powerful, but if the united states openly attacked non-military citizens or guerilla groups, we'd have sanctions and much open animosity against us by now.

Many probably think military aircraft can't tell what their ordnance are hitting or that they're ruthless automatons. Fortis is not part of the problem. He at least has the heart to discuss troubling events until a suitable answer is finally given. We don't have that yet.

Many wish others to join the political languor of US citizens that already encompassed the nation before 9/11. You all want fast and easy answers, minimal interruption from the hedonism diet. Everyone complains about the Iraq war, but forgets the same abandon got us into Afghanistan. The same abandon is why the government issues laws that destroy your retirement options, raise your taxes, take away your ability to drive, your guns, your dating prospects, and is the reason so many of you now want to expatriate somewhere else.

A little actions, informing and involvement is exactly why America is in the tubes. No one has the heart to trudge the hard road unless it's only for themselves.