(11-27-2015 07:18 PM)the Thing Wrote:  What would you guys yourselves do in a situation like this, go full omega "oh please inbound fighter jet just turn around and leave me alone" then bend over and take it? You pick a fight, you get a fight.

There was no fight. Instructing an inbound fighter (from a non-hostile power) to leave your airspace is exactly what you're supposed to do; if that fails, the next step is to intercept and escort until it clears your airspace; firing upon it isn't remotely reasonable unless those steps have already been attempted. It's not "omega", it's following accepted international procedure.

We know beyond any doubt that the Russian plane was clearly on its way out of Turkish airspace (if it ever entered it) and was shot down after it cleared Turkish airspace. No matter which way you cut it, and even if we take Turkey's story at face value (and that's a big if), it's a completely indefensible act.

Quote:Fighting US - Turkey - Saudi Arabia backed ISIS is one thing, but

Russia has never claimed to be limiting its strikes to ISIS only, it has constantly stated that its aim is to help defeat anti-government forces and stabilize the country. It also happens to be the only rational approach to the situation.

(11-27-2015 01:21 PM)the Thing Wrote:  

(11-27-2015 01:12 PM)balmainjeans Wrote:  

(11-27-2015 12:50 PM)BambiNotForLong Wrote:  I'm not sitting here defending Turkeys actions, I'm merely pointing out the hypocricy.

This was already mentioned several pages back, but:

"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack." - Turkey PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan in 2012 after Syria shot down a Turkish plane that crossed into Syrian airspace.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

What were you saying about hypocrisy again?

You're very naive if you expect any country's leader to say "oh we're sorry we were wrong, thanks for reminding us by shooting down our plane we won't do it again" in a press release after such an event.

This is politics we're talking about. None of these countries and leaders are completely innocent.

I'm not claiming Turkey did right or wrong, my point is it's completely plausible and highly possible that Turkey did it thinking it was a Syrian plane.

It's possible, but not likely.

(11-27-2015 01:49 PM)47R Wrote:  

(11-27-2015 12:06 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  You know, the Thing has a point. An unknown plane entering your airspace, even for a minute, is an obvious threat and must be destroyed immediately. It's a very common occurrence. That's why over 1000 Turkish planes were destroyed by Greece during the last few years:



Or not, because that would make zero sense.

2244 penetrations a year ? It makes 6-7 times a day man. I wish, but maybe your radars counted a migrating duck flock or something ?
Get your facts straight lol.

I don't know what you are arguing, but Turkish warplanes breach Greek airspace regularly and if anything the statistics posted by Handsome Creepy Eel may be on the low side. When I was in Lesbos in 2005 I was told by a relative in the Air Force that on many days there were over 40 incursions. That's over 40 incursions into Greek airspace in one day.

(11-26-2015 02:08 PM)The Ligurian Wrote:  Just listening to radio Ekho Moscow. Seems that Russia is putting sanctions on Turkey in a big way.

Would be great if they abolished the free visa regime too. Less sex tourists the better in the FSU.

Those who ask, shall receive.

(11-27-2015 06:54 PM)Killer Joe Wrote:  So many planes, so little effect.

What exactly are those USA planes bombing? They've been fucking around for more than a year and ISIS wasn't even close to being "degraded" like Obozo claimed, until Russia stepped in.

They're bombing Syrian military and infrastructure to make the job for ISIS easier.

This: https://www.rooshvforum.com/post-1150484...pid1150484 too

(11-27-2015 05:04 PM)The Ligurian Wrote:  I recently flew Turkish Airlines. The Turkish passengers onboard were the biggest bunch of entitled cunts I've ever had the displeasure to share a few hours with.

This thread proves to me that they were no exception.

I think totally the opposite. I have some Turkish friends and think they're wonderful people, very generous and nice. Turkish Airlines is a great airline too (it's a pity I won't be using it anymore until the Syria situation is resolved). I just feel disappointed in Turkish leadership.

Same like with Croatia - I think Croatian people are great, I just hate the country's politics.

...

(11-27-2015 01:21 PM)the Thing Wrote:  

(11-27-2015 01:12 PM)balmainjeans Wrote:  

(11-27-2015 12:50 PM)BambiNotForLong Wrote:  I'm not sitting here defending Turkeys actions, I'm merely pointing out the hypocricy.

This was already mentioned several pages back, but:

"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack." - Turkey PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan in 2012 after Syria shot down a Turkish plane that crossed into Syrian airspace.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

What were you saying about hypocrisy again?

You're very naive if you expect any country's leader to say "oh we're sorry we were wrong, thanks for reminding us by shooting down our plane we won't do it again" in a press release after such an event.

This is politics we're talking about. None of these countries and leaders are completely innocent.

I'm not claiming Turkey did right or wrong, my point is it's completely plausible and highly possible that Turkey did it thinking it was a Syrian plane.

I suppose I'll start off with a quote from you earlier in this thread:

(11-27-2015 03:49 PM)the Thing Wrote:  I'm stumped.

Can you copy and paste from what I wrote and, along with the reasoning in your own words, show me step by step how you got to that conclusion?

I never said I expected a leader to apologize after being attacked. I think Erdogan's response in 2012 was appropriate.

Sure there is some plausibility that Turkey didn't know the plane was Russian. However, it is a leap to say it is "highly possible" after reading all that has been reported prior to and after the incident. Either way, Erdogan looks like a fool here by not practicing what he preached.

Some thoughts on the short to medium-run consequences of the shootdown of the SU-24 & Russian helicopter, and Russia's reaction to the situation:

Russia, Assad, Iran, Hezbollah, Kurds, the USA, & Israel all benefit.

Russia now has international support to bomb the rebels and their allies. They don't need to hold back because of potential international condemnation. Expect to see more GRU-led operations.

By extension Assad, Iran & Hezbollah will see their goals achieved. The rebels will lose their territory and Turkish support. Assad will be in control of at least half of Syria by this time next year. Iran and Hezbollah won't see 'democratic' Sunni Islamists in power in the Levant anytime soon.

The Kurds now have the two most powerful Air Forces in the world (USA and Russia) bombing their enemies. They will get to hold on to significant territory, since they will have helped the Russians and Americans eliminate their biggest enemies in the region.

This has been a blessing in disguise for the Americans. Their disastrous policy of supporting Al-Qaeda allies will be reversed by Russia bombing the rebels and Al-Nusra to the stone age. And no matter what the cuckservatives at National Review say, the American Government and the American public do not want to see their soldiers' lives on the line to support Al-Qaeda and radical Islamist Turks.

The Israelis now can get rid of Hamas completely. Any international condemnation can be countered by replying that Hamas is supported by the same Governments who support Al-Qaeda in Syria. If there is another Gaza War in the near future, international support will be against Turkish allies.

Turkey, Rebels, ISIL and Gulf States all lose out

Turkey's dream of a pan-Turkic empire has been eliminated. Their Turkmen rebel allies in Syria are being systematically eliminated by the RuAF. Turkish journalists are calling out Turkey for directly and indirectly supporting Al-Qaeda allies and ISIL in Syria. Any influence they wanted to have in Syrian affairs has been destroyed for the next several years. And their jets will be blown up if they try and bomb Kurdish positions in Syria. They got called out on their bluff and their hegemony will suffer. I feel sorry for Liberal Turks - any positive impact they wished to make in the Middle East will be significantly harder because of Erdogan's costly Islamist gamble.

The Rebels and Al-Nusra will get bombed to the stone age. Russia will see to it that they lose all their territory soon. They are little kids who poked the bear. That never ends up well.

ISIL will see an end to its border with Turkey. Without Turkish support, they are simply thugs with automatic rifles. That shouldn't be a difficult fight for the USAF, RuAF, and anti-ISIL forces.

The Gulf States will lose any hopes of an Islamist Sunni state in North Arabia. Their gamble did not pay off, and the most they can do 5 years from now will be to support weak Sunni insurgencies in the region.


I couldn't analyze this situation in much detail because of time constraints, but feel free to comment or ask any questions about unclear aspects.

(11-27-2015 10:38 PM)Engineer Wrote:  

(11-27-2015 09:59 PM)SirTimothy Wrote:  I noticed it also said "Number of fixed-wing aircraft". That would exclude SU-24's.

The SU-24 is considered fixed-wing, even though it can sweep the wing. Fixed-wing is used to distinguish from rotary-wing (helicopters).

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

(11-28-2015 12:58 PM)xpatplayer Wrote:  Some thoughts on the short to medium-run consequences of the shootdown of the SU-24 & Russian helicopter, and Russia's reaction to the situation:

Russia, Assad, Iran, Hezbollah, Kurds, the USA, & Israel all benefit.

Russia now has international support to bomb the rebels and their allies. They don't need to hold back because of potential international condemnation. Expect to see more GRU-led operations.

By extension Assad, Iran & Hezbollah will see their goals achieved. The rebels will lose their territory and Turkish support. Assad will be in control of at least half of Syria by this time next year. Iran and Hezbollah won't see 'democratic' Sunni Islamists in power in the Levant anytime soon.

The Kurds now have the two most powerful Air Forces in the world (USA and Russia) bombing their enemies. They will get to hold on to significant territory, since they will have helped the Russians and Americans eliminate their biggest enemies in the region.

This has been a blessing in disguise for the Americans. Their disastrous policy of supporting Al-Qaeda allies will be reversed by Russia bombing the rebels and Al-Nusra to the stone age. And no matter what the cuckservatives at National Review say, the American Government and the American public do not want to see their soldiers' lives on the line to support Al-Qaeda and radical Islamist Turks.

The Israelis now can get rid of Hamas completely. Any international condemnation can be countered by replying that Hamas is supported by the same Governments who support Al-Qaeda in Syria. If there is another Gaza War in the near future, international support will be against Turkish allies.

Turkey, Rebels, ISIL and Gulf States all lose out

Turkey's dream of a pan-Turkic empire has been eliminated. Their Turkmen rebel allies in Syria are being systematically eliminated by the RuAF. Turkish journalists are calling out Turkey for directly and indirectly supporting Al-Qaeda allies and ISIL in Syria. Any influence they wanted to have in Syrian affairs has been destroyed for the next several years. And their jets will be blown up if they try and bomb Kurdish positions in Syria. They got called out on their bluff and their hegemony will suffer. I feel sorry for Liberal Turks - any positive impact they wished to make in the Middle East will be significantly harder because of Erdogan's costly Islamist gamble.

The Rebels and Al-Nusra will get bombed to the stone age. Russia will see to it that they lose all their territory soon. They are little kids who poked the bear. That never ends up well.

ISIL will see an end to its border with Turkey. Without Turkish support, they are simply thugs with automatic rifles. That shouldn't be a difficult fight for the USAF, RuAF, and anti-ISIL forces.

The Gulf States will lose any hopes of an Islamist Sunni state in North Arabia. Their gamble did not pay off, and the most they can do 5 years from now will be to support weak Sunni insurgencies in the region.


I couldn't analyze this situation in much detail because of time constraints, but feel free to comment or ask any questions about unclear aspects.

Good analysis.

The Western news media haven't even mentioned that Russia is carpet bombing the Turkish-Syrian border.

Before the plane shootdown, the propaganda organs in the West would have been screaming "war crime" 24/7 if Russia were carpet bombing rebel towns and villages, but now that the Turks have committed their blunder and shown themselves to be terrorist supporters, the West has to stay quiet so as to not alert the propagandized sheep in the West that the Turks (and by extension the USA) were supporting terrorists.

I don't think anyone has mentioned this important fact that Zerohedge blew open a few days ago:


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-25...-president

Meet The Man Who Funds ISIS: Bilal Erdogan, The Son Of Turkey's President

Quote:And while we patiently dig to find who the on and offshore "commodity trading" middleman are, who cart away ISIS oil to European and other international markets in exchange for hundreds of millions of dollars, one name keeps popping up as the primary culprit of regional demand for the Islamic State's "terrorist oil" - that of Turkish president Recep Erdogan's son: Bilal Erdogan.

Everything makes a lot more sense now, doesn't it? Erdogan's son buys oil from ISIS and sells it dirt cheap abroad. This is probably part of the reason why gas and oil prices are so low nowadays. Russia is bombing ISIS, which threatens Erdogan's lucrative trade with ISIS. So Erdogan's son has a vested interest in stopping the Russians, and this probably affects his father's decisions as well.

UPDATE:

ZH posted a more in-depth explanation of how Turkey's son is doing it:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-27...c-evidence

ZH is simply the best news blog around today. REAL journalism, it's hard to believe.

Don´t know if has already been posted here before, but I enjoy the videos of this youtube channel:













It seems they provide daily updates on the Syrian civil war, with a Russian bias I should add. Informative, but high probability of binge watching.

By the way I can´t be the only one who thinks they look really similar to those mission briefings in RTS games like "Command&Conquer". I´m just waiting for my orders to wipe out the NOD forces and capture Kane.

Turkey is a real clusterfuck right now:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-28...iving-publ

Violence Erupts In Turkey After Prominent Lawyer Is Assassinated On Live TV

Quote:A day after Turkey arrested two journalists for their report exposing Erdogan's weapons deliveries to "extremist groups" in Syria, confirming that no dissent to the president's foreign policy would be allowed, today a new riot has erupted in Istanbul following the dramatic murder in broad daylight of Tahir Elci, the president of the Turkish bar association in southeastern Diyarbakir province, who was shot dead by unidentified gunmen while giving a public speech.

A campaigner for Kurdish rights, Elci had been criticized in Turkey for saying the banned Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) was not a terrorist organization, as the government describes it. He had, however, denounced PKK violence. He was facing trial over his comments, which had infuriated state prosecutors. A Turkish prosecutor last month demanded up to seven and a half years of prison time for Elci on the grounds of "making propaganda of a terror organization" after remarks he made supporting the PKK.

(11-28-2015 03:13 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Turkey is a real clusterfuck right now:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-28...iving-publ

Violence Erupts In Turkey After Prominent Lawyer Is Assassinated On Live TV

Quote:A day after Turkey arrested two journalists for their report exposing Erdogan's weapons deliveries to "extremist groups" in Syria, confirming that no dissent to the president's foreign policy would be allowed, today a new riot has erupted in Istanbul following the dramatic murder in broad daylight of Tahir Elci, the president of the Turkish bar association in southeastern Diyarbakir province, who was shot dead by unidentified gunmen while giving a public speech.

A campaigner for Kurdish rights, Elci had been criticized in Turkey for saying the banned Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) was not a terrorist organization, as the government describes it. He had, however, denounced PKK violence. He was facing trial over his comments, which had infuriated state prosecutors. A Turkish prosecutor last month demanded up to seven and a half years of prison time for Elci on the grounds of "making propaganda of a terror organization" after remarks he made supporting the PKK.

Erdogan is desperately trying to silence anyone who will expose the Turkish government's support of terrorist groups in Syria.

Expect more assassinations and/or arrests in the coming days as Erdogan tries to silence the dissenters.

Pretty happy I didn't buy that Turkish Airlines ticket.

(11-28-2015 03:07 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Meet The Man Who Funds ISIS: Bilal Erdogan, The Son Of Turkey's President

That guy has <85 IQ.

A year ago, phone calls between Erdoğan and his son leaked. Anyone who can understand Turkish will agree, Bilal is a retard. It's even become an internet meme. "explaining like you explain to Bilal" meaning explain like you would to a mentally handicapped. It was revealed that they were laundering dirty money in that tapes. Erdoğan is still playing the God Emperor.

Props to CIA, it was a fantastic move to take down secular military establishment. Just fantastic. Really. Before Erdoğan came, we were on the verge of joining the western civilisation. Just like Hungarians did 1100 years ago. Now we are a banana republic, an agitator jailed the elite military leadership and half-Persian sheep herders with a quarter language demand that we bend over to them.

What happens is, Saudis and gulf states fund ISIS, Turkish Intelligence is the middlemen/logistics people. Because money is not what we have, most of the country's wealth gets plundered by neo-ottoman elite anyway.

Holy shit...

(11-28-2015 03:31 PM)Yagibozan Wrote:  

(11-28-2015 03:07 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Meet The Man Who Funds ISIS: Bilal Erdogan, The Son Of Turkey's President

That guy has <85 IQ.

A year ago, phone calls between Erdoğan and his son leaked. Anyone who can understand Turkish will agree, Bilal is a retard. It's even become an internet meme. "explaining like you explain to Bilal" meaning explain like you would to a mentally handicapped. It was revealed that they were laundering dirty money in that tapes. Erdoğan is still playing the God Emperor.

Props to CIA, it was a fantastic move to take down secular military establishment. Just fantastic. Really. Before Erdoğan came, we were on the verge of joining the western civilisation. Just like Hungarians did 1100 years ago. Now we are a banana republic, an agitator jailed the elite military leadership and half-Persian sheep herders with a quarter language demand that we bend over to them.

What happens is, Saudis and gulf states fund ISIS, Turkish Intelligence is the middlemen/logistics people. Because money is not what we have, most of the country's wealth gets plundered by neo-ottoman elite anyway.

Gülen's movement and the rise of the AKP was funded by the CIA using support for an islamist party that was already present in much of rural turkey. It's mindboggling why the CIA would do this, though, because this asshole now leads one of the largest sunni muslim congregations in the US in Philadelphia, and Turkey is now more unstable than ever. I think they are using him as a trump card to finally puppetize Turkey when they get the chance.

Putin just announced a long list of sanctions against Turkey.

Among other things charter flights to Turkey are banned now which will hurt Turkey's economy what with the millions of Russians who visit each year.

Interesting to see how this pans out.

Edit: Damn just thought of something. With Turks needing visas for Russia I think Ukraine will have even more of them next summer. FFS.

Others on this forum have remarked that Turkey may also descend into civil war. That's looking more likely now.

I'll tell you what: if that happens, Europe will have absolutely no choice but to militarily seal its borders, because if there's a Turkish civil war, you're going to have tens of millions of people attempting to make the crossing.

Europe might also have benefitted from Erdogan's madness as well. Border security is going to eventually be forced on them, one way or the other.

(11-28-2015 04:01 PM)The Ligurian Wrote:  Putin just announced a long list of sanctions against Turkey.

Among other things charter flights to Turkey are banned now which will hurt Turkey's economy what with the millions of Russians who visit each year.

Interesting to see how this pans out.

Edit: Damn just thought of something. With Turks needing visas for Russia I think Ukraine will have even more of them next summer. FFS.

Maybe some Ukrainian girls will give some discount to them.

Quote:The Kiev millionaire, Gennady Balashov, who incidentally is being prosecuted by Russia for incitement to murder Russians and undermine Russia's gas transportation system, suggested that Pyotr Poroshenko award the Hero of the Ukraine Medal to the Turkish pilots who shot down the Russian plane.

Link

(11-28-2015 04:22 PM)Libertas Wrote:  Others on this forum have remarked that Turkey may also descend into civil war. That's looking more likely now.

I'll tell you what: if that happens, Europe will have absolutely no choice but to militarily seal its borders, because if there's a Turkish civil war, you're going to have tens of millions of people attempting to make the crossing.

Europe might also have benefitted from Erdogan's madness as well. Border security is going to eventually be forced on them, one way or the other.

Not probable imho. With whom? Only the the minority of communist Kurds want to fight. I don´t see many joining them specially after they got greedy and wanted their own country in Turkey.

God I hope Ukraine follows Russia's lead for once.

Delete.