Post: #26

(09-14-2015 05:14 AM)Rush87 Wrote:  Depends on your style of learning. I spent 4 years at University learning from professionals and my knowledge was no greater than when I started. I spend 6 months working on my own project and my industry knowledge is higher than those who taught me.

My field was Film BTW. Sometimes it just depends on how you process information. If you're anything like me, you have to break it down and learn the rules by creating your own. Others can listen to someone talk for 45 minutes, process all the information and the perform exactly as they have been taught.

I think that you make a real good point about learning styles, and people learn in different ways. When I was first learning salsa dancing, for example, I wrote a lot down and then went to memorize and create a vision from my notes. Other guys would create videos or watch videos and other guys would just attempt to retain everything in their memory without videos or notes. Each style has a different trade off of time and retention and emphasizes certain aspects.. but in the end, the guy needed to be able to move his body, even when in the beginning of the learning process he may merely be thinking about it or creating a vision of such movement without actually doing it.

I have my doubts about the level to which you are asserting that you didn't learn anything from lectures for 4 years.. hahahahahahaha

Maybe there is something like a percentage split for how people learn? Like for example if you personally hear a lecture, you retain or learn 5 or 10%, depending on the lecture; however, if you engage in a project yourself, you learn or retain 60 to 70%.... or maybe some other variation of such percentages that would be different for each guy depending on the activity learned and his aptitudes and experiences?

Post: #27

(09-14-2015 05:58 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Changing your oil also gives you the opportunity to crawl under your car to really see the belly of the beast. You can catch things like rust, ailing suspension, and steering linkage problems before they leave you stranded or worse kill you.

I agree with a large number of your points; however, when it comes to auto-repair, guys have been more and more disabled in the past 30 to 40 years based on increasing electronics that cause more and more difficulties to assess a problem or how to get started in attempting to repair it.

Surely, some of the mechanical components and the chassis has NOT changed as much, especially if the mechanical components are NOT connected to any electronics... Yet even some of this has changed.

When I open up the hood or even look under the bottom of some newer cars, all I see is plastic. I don't see any engine and I don't see much of any of the drive train... funny thing is that those components are still there, under the plastic, but can scare a guy to attempt to remove some of the plastic in order to even get to the area of the potential problem. So, even though a guy may have known about mechanics in the past, he may become scared and/or intimidated by the multitude of changes that add several extra variables to affect his calculations regarding whether or NOT to delve into it...

Post: #28

(09-14-2015 06:24 AM)Sooth Wrote:  [snip]

Part of being a man is having dominion over the natural world. This includes current and past technology.

Buy a bag of nails and a length of 2x4 then hammer the nails in straight.

Don't be like this guy (NZs current prime minister).
He's a good PM though.

edit: My old man can't cut down any trees at home as they're all full of 6 inch nails

I doubt that many of us can be experts at everything, and you know when we try things a few times that are a bit out of our league, we will likely screw up, and possibly look like dweebs in the process.

One of the better ways to learn is to recognize various inadequacies in performance and/or technique(s).

At the same, time it can also be problematic to allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good or the good enough. There can be a large number of ways to become more efficient or to do something better, but to continuously engage in those kinds of pursuits can distract from a large number of other endeavors.

We can also disagree about these kinds of matters. I recall a couple of bosses of mine would attempt to get me to do some tasks in their way, and surely with a boss, you have to comply to a certain level or at least play along to appear as if you are complying. But sometimes, if they are going on and on about it, you may have to let them know that their sense of perfection is NOT the same as yours and maybe they will admit that you are still accomplishing the job to a sufficiently proficient level and that their supposed complaint are stylistic rather than substantive in nature.


hahaha... fucking bosses, sometimes trying to ruin my life work balance choices

Post: #29

(09-14-2015 10:51 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  I feel it is a balance between time and money. If it costs you more time than it would cost you money to do a certain task, you'd probably be better off hiring an expert to do it for you.

Think of your time in terms of dollars per hour. If you are currently making $30/hr at your current job or business, and you want to do a particular task. Consider how much time it would take you to do that task. If it will take you 20 hours to do it, that's worth $600 of your time. Can you find an expert to do it better than you can DIY, for around $600 or less?

While it is money out of your pocket, you can use that time to do something else. Such as doing another task that helps invest in or monetize your business.

You have a decent point, here because time / money balance should be considered; however, time/money would NOT be the only factor.

There can be a sense of accomplishment or a sense of self-fulfilling that comes with any project.

Also, frequently, guys will pay money to learn how to do things, and sometimes, if you want to learn something, you may NOT want to invest money to learn it, but you may decide to invest time to learn that thing.

Additionally, I will suggest that for many of us, participating in this forum, and in other forums do NOT necessarily make us money and are likely NOT very productive in the money making arena (except maybe indirectly); however, participating in these kinds of forums and discussions bring us a greater sense of fulfillment and even frequently will help to teach us more about ourselves and the ways of the world.

Yes, money and time are factors - but usually NOT the only factors, and some guys are going to way, money and time differently than others and also will give varying levels of value to their learning experience or need for such learning, through whatever project that they undertake. Maybe the same is true, for something like gardening? In different stages of life, guys may decide to take up gardening, including growing his own food - but economically, that calculation may NOT pay off - however, there could be other factors that would cause the guy to take up such an activity, even on a fairly long term basis.

Post: #30

My trade is jack of all, and I love it.

Rush87 is right- if you do something yourself you retain way more of the information. I was similar in that I learnt nothing at school. Soon as I left and started working I began learning. Prior to todays university-obsessed culture, we used to realise that a) kids learn differently and b) in a fully functioning economy, not everyone oughta be shuffling paper. So we had what were called trade schools and apprenticeships.

I've also had some shocking work done by so called mechanics and engineers, so I bought a lathe and welding gear and taught myself. Started with fixing my own junk but soon realised there's more money (and a nice warm workshop in winter) in fixing other peoples stuff.

So for me, it's rare that I employ an expert, but that's because the time/money tradeoff CleanSlate alluded to is heavily skewed by the fact that I have all the tools plus labour at my disposal.

JayJuanGee has good points too. Satisfaction at fixing something properly is often equal to the money saved/earnt for me.

Post: #31

(09-14-2015 11:23 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  I encourage every man to at least take an effort to understand his basic life's basic appliances. If anything to just to tell your kid or impress a woman on how it works.

There's some value in knowing the ways of the world, in a lot of different ways, and surely, a guy can be much more convincing to speak about how something works because he has actually employed some hands on interaction with that apparatus.

Nonetheless, we also likely realize that depending on the knowledge level of the person with whom you are communicating, you may NOT necessarily need to engage with a product in order to sufficiently understand how it works or to be able to explain how it works to someone who may be less knowledgable about how the thing works.

Post: #32

(09-14-2015 11:42 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Jaygaun,

Seriously, did you know that Drano and those hooked sticks that come with them would have unclogged it mighty fast without disassembling the whole pipe work?

A plumber would most likely have done that or used a suction device to suck the gunk back up into a bag.

Beast1: I have NO problem with your suggestion(s) regarding how a guy could accomplish a project with more efficiency or that another method could have or would have been better. Surely, those kinds of considerations could be taken into account if there is a next time for me regarding this kind of a plumbing project.

I used my recent plumbing experience as a means to specifically describe a self-help situation that I went through. Surely each of us will approach these kinds of matters in different ways, and surely it could be the case that 99% of lay persons would have realized or attempted Draino prior to disassembling the pipes. Anyhow, it's NOT really the point of the thread to identify the "best or better" ways to achieve self help objectives and to be successful in self help objectives, because guys are going to come to differing conclusions about the extent to which self help is necessary or useful to them to employ.

And, in our efforts to explore matters beyond our own personal expertise, sometimes guys may NOT identify or account for certain options that may be more viable and/or practical than the route that he decides to employ. In this process, surely, sometimes guys are going to make some decisions that others consider to be dumb when it comes to engaging in self-help when they may be out of their area of expertise.

I did NOT envision the point of this thread to be to figure out ways to suggest that guys should necessarily become good at self-help or that they should learn any specific self help skills or even that they carry out their self-help efforts in a correct and/or more efficient way (even though it could be valuable to learn how to do things better in the future in order that a guy may NOT be spinning his wheels or engaging in fruitless endeavors).

I believe that points that I am attempting to raise in this thread regard, the weighing that guys may give in their considerations of whether or NOT to attempt to employ self-help measures, whether they are successful at such self help efforts or NOT.

Actually, it could be very interesting for us to discuss within this thread a large variety of self-help efforts that guys may have attempted that ended up disasters in which they may have ended up learning something about the self-help or even something about themselves from such disasters. Examples of lessons could be either NOT to attempt such self-help efforts in the future or to employ better methods in event that they were to further attempt some similar self-help project in the future.

Post: #33

(09-14-2015 01:38 PM)roberto Wrote:  My trade is jack of all, and I love it.

Actually, there seems to be some value in considering our abilities to strive towards learning a jack of all trades kind of disposition. Yet, maybe very difficult in modern times to really employ and to live such, unless a guy were to be independently wealthy or able to figure out ways to monetize (or at least sufficiently barter) such an approach to his life.

In recent decades, there has been considerable movement towards specialization and earning money based on one's special skills. There has also been a lot of criticism of the specialization life style and quality of life that may result from specialization and to some extent being subject to the whims of the man and the market in the event that a guy may have focused on acquiring the wrong skills or has NOT sufficiently diversified (or hedged) enough in the event that his specialty skills are NO longer considered valuable.

Specialization versus Jack of all trades seems to be part of the dilemma that causes guys to have different opinions regarding personal directions concerning the extent to which he employs self-help?

Post: #34

(09-14-2015 12:17 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(09-14-2015 05:58 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Changing your oil also gives you the opportunity to crawl under your car to really see the belly of the beast. You can catch things like rust, ailing suspension, and steering linkage problems before they leave you stranded or worse kill you.

I agree with a large number of your points; however, when it comes to auto-repair, guys have been more and more disabled in the past 30 to 40 years based on increasing electronics that cause more and more difficulties to assess a problem or how to get started in attempting to repair it.

Surely, some of the mechanical components and the chassis has NOT changed as much, especially if the mechanical components are NOT connected to any electronics... Yet even some of this has changed.

When I open up the hood or even look under the bottom of some newer cars, all I see is plastic. I don't see any engine and I don't see much of any of the drive train... funny thing is that those components are still there, under the plastic, but can scare a guy to attempt to remove some of the plastic in order to even get to the area of the potential problem. So, even though a guy may have known about mechanics in the past, he may become scared and/or intimidated by the multitude of changes that add several extra variables to affect his calculations regarding whether or NOT to delve into it...

This was the interior of my 9-5 before I sold it:



Most of the plastic trim you are referring to easily pulls right on out. There's a clip in the rear that you have you push the unit down and right out. Not too hard. Dad's Bimmer was similar as well. The panels pull right off with a little bit of wiggling.

Contrast that with my old merc:


I'm with ya though, I like seeing the guts of something. Aesthetically covering all of the bits with a plastic shield just adds one more item to move away when working in.

As for electronics, you're correct however the only time you really need access to the super locked away dealer stuff is when you're trying to overwrite firmwares. I had to bring my car into the dealer for a throttle body re-programming. Total pain in the @$$.

However beyond that, this little device helped me in almost every other case. I only needed to replace the throttle body once:


Finally, this is the Drano product that you need


Just yanking your chain brother. I love DIY stuff, i'm a bit of a dork like that. Take it from me, I have a TON of stories where I did something that was so much more difficult just to have someone go, "You know you could have done it this way for 3/4th less work!"

It's those Pyrrhic victories that make you better next time! You learned a ton of stuff just by thinking out of the box. Most men wouldn't bother taking taking pipes apart (myself included)!

It's that level of curiosity and ingenuity that means you're not only capable of still learning, but can persevere long enough to success even when there was a much easier route!
Just remember, not to be afraid to ask a trusted friend for help when you really truly are up the creek the paddle.

Post: #35

(09-14-2015 03:31 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  [snip]......

Most of the plastic trim you are referring to easily pulls right on out. There's a clip in the rear that you have you push the unit down and right out. Not too hard.
.....[snip]..

I wasn't really referring necessarily to the level of difficulty in having to remove a lot of plastic, but moreso to the barrier having a likely material affect on the understanding of lay people regarding what is under the hood or what causes the car to move the way that it does.

Some people may grow up without seeing the underpinnings or the moving parts contained therein... and hard to really absorb any knowledge about what is under the hood when mostly looking at a sheet of plastic...

I was thinking about something like that depicted in these pics:


Under the hood:
   

Under the chassis:
   

Post: #36

(09-14-2015 03:31 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  ...[snip]...

However beyond that, this little device helped me in almost every other case. I only needed to replace the throttle body once:



...[snip]...

What is that "little device," and what does it do?

Is it specific to a particular model of car? or does it work with a variety of car models?

Can it be used in non-automotive applications?

Post: #37

(09-14-2015 03:31 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  ...[snip]...

Finally, this is the Drano product that you need



...[snip]...

Thanks for the image... hahahaha...

The image does cause me to continue to calculate that Draino (and the bonus poking device) may have NOT worked in my piping situation because of the location of the blockage and the extent of the blockage.

Yet, I do take your point, that it could have been better to make an attempt with such draino prior to pulling apart the pipes....

In my particuar scenario that I was attempting to describe through a fairly detailed story, it seems that I did leave out one detail, and that was that I was kind of pressed for time... so accordingly, I thought that taking the pipes apart was the potential for a quick resolution... If I had any passing thoughts about draino, which I may have, I fairly quickly ruled it out as even a consideration because in part I was considering some kind of weighed aversion to inserting chemicals without really giving thought to it, and really, I had NOT really used Draino in the past, so maybe my fear was a bit more unfounded than it needed to be.


Again, I point out that some of the blockage was probably about 5 feet or possibly a little further than that from the sink's drainage. Accordingly, that prodding device, that appears to be less than 2 feet in length, would have been considerably lacking in length to cause any meaningful stirring of the blockage materials.

Post: #38

(09-14-2015 03:31 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Just yanking your chain brother. I love DIY stuff, i'm a bit of a dork like that.

Hey, Nothing wrong with a little chain yanking, here and there to keep a guy on his toes.

In some sense, aspects of this thread may have been made for you and your interests; however, I do sense that I have been attempting to redirect, to some extent, because sometimes, some of the weeds may NOT be as important as the forest - or maybe in my calculation, some of the weeds may be diverting somewhat from some of the original points (which may NOT be totally a bad thing).

(09-14-2015 03:31 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Take it from me, I have a TON of stories where I did something that was so much more difficult just to have someone go, "You know you could have done it this way for 3/4th less work!"

As I mentioned before, I do think that some of those stories could be very interesting and topical within this thread. I surely would like to hear a few of them, if you think that they may be interesting to other guys or illustrate some further points that you would like to make concerning either what you learned, or making a different approach or even possibly sticking to your guns in the face of adversity and potentially differing majority opinion(s).

(09-14-2015 03:31 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  It's those Pyrrhic victories that make you better next time! You learned a ton of stuff just by thinking out of the box. Most men wouldn't bother taking taking pipes apart (myself included)!

It's that level of curiosity and ingenuity that means you're not only capable of still learning, but can persevere long enough to success even when there was a much easier route!

I will take the gist of these comments as a compliment. Yes, surely sometimes, the engaging in certain projects and the decisions that guys make will tell a bit of a story about his personality or maybe even give some clues about how the guy may approach a future situation. And, probably a lot of guys do NOT necessarily want to be too predictable, so finally, when people may be attempting how the guy may act in a certain set of circumstances, the guy may want to employ some feelings of free will and then act in the opposite way that others are predicting of him.

(09-14-2015 03:31 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Just remember, not to be afraid to ask a trusted friend for help when you really truly are up the creek the paddle.

Yes ... ask or don't ask... what is the risk, and is there enough time, and does a guy feel that he has enough information to decide without consulting? should a guy google it, or should he just go ahead? Does a guy even think of google if he believes that he has enough information to proceed?

These are choices and decisions that guys make all the time, especially when we come across a potential self-help situation.. regarding what we believe, what risks we take, what's the potential benefit and the odds that it will pay out. We may or may NOT do each of these calculations when we decide whether we value one course of action versus another.

Post: #39

(09-14-2015 05:26 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(09-14-2015 03:31 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Just remember, not to be afraid to ask a trusted friend for help when you really truly are up the creek the paddle.

Yes ... ask or don't ask... what is the risk, and is there enough time, and does a guy feel that he has enough information to decide without consulting? should a guy google it, or should he just go ahead? Does a guy even think of google if he believes that he has enough information to proceed?

These are choices and decisions that guys make all the time, especially when we come across a potential self-help situation.. regarding what we believe, what risks we take, what's the potential benefit and the odds that it will pay out. We may or may NOT do each of these calculations when we decide whether we value one course of action versus another.

Actually, I have been thinking a little bit further about the point that you made above and my response, and I cannot recall whether I may have mentioned earlier in the thread that some guys (including myself) may have been brought up with a considerable sense of self-reliance and self-sufficiency, and maybe that is one of the reasons why guys get the stereotypical reputation of NOT asking for directions as easily as a girl may do.

Sometimes, it can be very helpful to ask for directions or to get some feedback from other guys about how to proceed, but I think that there remains a bit of either socialization or genetics that continue to cause guys to have some tendencies to want to plow their own course, or at least imagine themselves as blowing their own course (even when it may NOT be true)...

NONETHELESS, my response regarding the extent to which asking others may have been helpful in my plumbing situation remains similar to the one I made above.
I really think that at some point, action will be the next step rather than analysis. In my case, after about 15 minutes of plunging, and then several minutes of looking and pondering, I considered under those circumstances that I had enough information in order to act... I wasn't going to call anyone up, because in my rotary book, I really did NOT have anyone on the quick list that I felt could have given me information to affect my course of action.

Surely there may be guys who may have decided to make a few phone calls, but they may be creating their own scenario rather than the scenario that I perceived myself to be in at that particular time... and making phone calls in my post hoc assessment would have likely been a waste of valuable time.

Post: #40

The original post in this thread was not merely intended to be about plumbing or improving life through learning plumbing skills, but instead to discuss ways in which guys may be able to feel a sense of self accomplishment through achieving various kinds of self-help objectives, and my plumbing experience was meant to be one of my examples of that.

Within the past few weeks, I was again reminded of my above plumbing example when one of my subtenants told me that he had plumbing issues with drainage of the sink in his bathroom. He told me that he had tried plunging and draino, and he could not relieve the blockage in the sink.. Therefore, I told him that I would try taking apart the pipes and to clear the blockage, which I did attempt.

I spent a couple of hours of my life attempting to clear the pipes of his sink, and I had no success.

Thereafter I called the landlady, and she sent plumber 1. If you recall from my above example, I really dislike getting my landlady involved in anything in my life. Anyhow,
Plumber 1 spent several hours with various techniques, including use of a motorized snake router.. and no luck. The landlady got pissed at plumber 1, and she sent plumber 2.

Plumber 2 spent an additional several hours and a couple of days, before he finally figured it out, removed some wall, replaced and cleared the pipes and fixed the matter.

Part of my problem with this whole plumbing situation was that these guys had a lot of plumbing experience and specialty, and yet each of them still took a long time to attempt to figure out how to rectify the problem, and part of the problem with plumber 2 was that he over-promised and under-delivered.

Plumber 2, seemed like a pretty decent and likeable guy, but he also failed/refused to take responsibility for his failures to achieve what he was promising (which is maybe still boiling down to over-promising and under-delivering, which means that he probably should not have been promising so much when he was having difficulties and facing uncertainties).

In this case, I doubt that the answer is really self-help because I tried self help to a considerable degree by expending a lot of my time in trying to figure out if I could resolve the matter, and I learned from my experiences, but in the end I was not successful to accomplish the objective and I was missing skills, tools and training in order to accomplish the remainder of the job. Specifically, plumber 2 had to cut several holes in the walls, and to cut pipe and to get replacement pipe that fit and to repipe various areas while getting permission from the landlady. He also told me that he had to make sure that the pipe was the proper kind with relieve valves or bevels or some such shit going in the proper direction.. which seemed much more than what I could have accomplished figuring out.

I personally feel good (and maybe even more manly) about making such attempts to fix the matter on my own even though it was beyond my skills, tools and training, and because of my having had made an attempt to fix it, I was in a position to better be able to discuss the situation with the landlady and with plumbers 1 and 2 because of my attempts and my experiences and also to understand what the plumbers were doing and kind of to understand (my own frustration) in plumber 2 making some of his over-representations regarding his skills and abilities.

Post: #41

Actually, I have another example of my struggled attempts at quasi-manly self-help, but in the end, I feel a lot better about the situation and that I fixed the situation on my own.

About 8 years ago, I had put up some prefabricated shelving that is made out of press board, and it has 8 cubes within it and measures about 5 feet in length, 2 and ½ feet in height and about 1 ½ feet in depth.

When I initially put it up, it came with two supporting brackets at the upper top, but I added a third supporting bracket to the bottom middle. Less than a week ago, I came across the shelving, and it had partially collapsed on 1 side from the weight that I had been increasingly placing on it in a kind of lopsided way.

Thereafter, I considered ways that I could fix it, and I ended up turning the shelving upside down (in order to hopefully change the stress points on the shelving), and to put it up with four supporting brackets rather than the 3 that I initially thought were more strategically placed.

After I put the weight on the revised four brackets, I discovered that my four bracket design was worse than my earlier three bracket design and the middle of the shelving was sagging and inadequately supported.

Thereafter, I took down the shelving again and I added more support to the design of the shelving, and it ended up going up and coming down two more times while “innovatively considered” additional ways to support the shelving better.

The third time that I added support and put the shelf back up was less than adequate; however, the fourth time ended up being a very decent design and very supportive, using materials that I already had in my possession, and I kept thinking that I should have thought of that design earlier (however, I have learned that practicing has made my skills and engineering thinking much better).

This failed shelving situation was an example in which my original set up was pretty decent, but overtime, the design had become inadequate, without my really realizing it, and then it took me three attempts to fix it again, in which I could have spent money to buy better shelving rather than making my own shelving from supplies that I already had. In the end, I spent a large number of man-hours to consider, design and build a stronger shelf, which I can consider to have been accomplished through my own innovations.

Post: #42

If I can fix something myself, I do. Several things are at work for me here.

- I hate being on someone else's schedule. Having to be around at a specific time for some jackass to show up, or having to bring my car someplace and leave it there, is extremely annoying. I'd rather just fix it on my own time when I can.

- It's almost always cheaper (sometimes much cheaper) for me to buy the tools and materials and do the job--pricing my labor at $0/hr because I don't take off time from work to do stuff unless it's a major emergency--and when I'm done I still have the tools. Win.

- I just plain enjoy working with my hands and solving problems. I take pleasure in being surrounded by things I improved, things that I built or fixed. For example, I fixed a couple sticking doors recently and when I walk by them, sometimes I'll stop to open and close them just to enjoy how much nicer they are now. I put up with those fucking doors for years and my total time spent fixing them was about 90 minutes.

Besides those basic reasons, I have met too many scam artists to easily trust other people to fix my problems. It seems like the whole goddamn world is made up of people who will screw you as much as they think they can get away with and it just pisses me off dealing with that sort of thing.

Over the years I've learned all sorts of skills (logging, welding, carpentry, auto/motorcycle repair and maintenance, gunsmithing, and plenty more) and because I've successfully jumped in and fixed so many different problems I now have a great deal of confidence in my abilities. So that's a nice thing to have too.

Post: #43

(07-19-2016 01:28 AM)weambulance Wrote:  If I can fix something myself, I do. Several things are at work for me here.

- I hate being on someone else's schedule. Having to be around at a specific time for some jackass to show up, or having to bring my car someplace and leave it there, is extremely annoying. I'd rather just fix it on my own time when I can.

- It's almost always cheaper (sometimes much cheaper) for me to buy the tools and materials and do the job--pricing my labor at $0/hr because I don't take off time from work to do stuff unless it's a major emergency--and when I'm done I still have the tools. Win.

- I just plain enjoy working with my hands and solving problems. I take pleasure in being surrounded by things I improved, things that I built or fixed. For example, I fixed a couple sticking doors recently and when I walk by them, sometimes I'll stop to open and close them just to enjoy how much nicer they are now. I put up with those fucking doors for years and my total time spent fixing them was about 90 minutes.

Besides those basic reasons, I have met too many scam artists to easily trust other people to fix my problems. It seems like the whole goddamn world is made up of people who will screw you as much as they think they can get away with and it just pisses me off dealing with that sort of thing.

Over the years I've learned all sorts of skills (logging, welding, carpentry, auto/motorcycle repair and maintenance, gunsmithing, and plenty more) and because I've successfully jumped in and fixed so many different problems I now have a great deal of confidence in my abilities. So that's a nice thing to have too.

Thanks for providing some discussion of these points, weambulance because it is good to hear other ways of expressing the matter whether we are learning new skills, as you mentioned or becoming more self-sufficient or having a sense of accomplishment... or maybe not becoming too dependent on supposed "specialists" - because some times we come to recognize that "specialists" can be full of shit, especially when they engage in behaviors to hide information or to deceive.. but sometimes we are also more dependent upon specialists (especially if we are attempting to learn more about an area that we are lacking knowledge and/or experiences).

Post: #44

Latest DIY project I've completed: installing a tankless water heater, replacing an old water heater which had holes rusted through the bottom and was leaking water in the mechanical room. learned a lot, got it mostly right. Learned about plumbing, hooking up gas lines, and how old and new water heaters work. Wouldn't trade it for the world.

Post: #45

(10-03-2018 07:53 PM)YoungBlade Wrote:  Latest DIY project I've completed: installing a tankless water heater, replacing an old water heater which had holes rusted through the bottom and was leaking water in the mechanical room. learned a lot, got it mostly right. Learned about plumbing, hooking up gas lines, and how old and new water heaters work. Wouldn't trade it for the world.

Thanks for reviving this thread, YoungBlade. From my previous posts in this thread, you can likely realize that I appreciate such a topic and the various potential purpose that engaging in such activities can bring to men - and surely the degree to DIY is going to vary from one guy to another, and various life circumstances that change with the passage of time.

By the way, I am not really familiar with many of the tankless options for waterheaters, but I have seen some variations in my travels and then one minature version, that largely relies on a smaller tank.

Does moving to "tankless" mean that the water runs through a kind of heating element and gets heated up as it flows through? So that takes up a lot less space? I have seen some electric variations of that, but seems like yours is a gas version so there is a kind of heated up flame area?

Post: #46

I do it because it's the way I was raised, and also because now I live in a country where if I pay someone to come and do something, there's a 90% chance I'll have to pay someone else to come along after them and fix what they broke, and then pay someone else to come in after they're both done and clean it all up, and still end up having to do it all over again myself since neither of the three were capable of properly doing the job I paid them to do in the first place.

Post: #47

(10-03-2018 08:03 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(10-03-2018 07:53 PM)YoungBlade Wrote:  Latest DIY project I've completed: installing a tankless water heater, replacing an old water heater which had holes rusted through the bottom and was leaking water in the mechanical room. learned a lot, got it mostly right. Learned about plumbing, hooking up gas lines, and how old and new water heaters work. Wouldn't trade it for the world.

Thanks for reviving this thread, YoungBlade. From my previous posts in this thread, you can likely realize that I appreciate such a topic and the various potential purpose that engaging in such activities can bring to men - and surely the degree to DIY is going to vary from one guy to another, and various life circumstances that change with the passage of time.

By the way, I am not really familiar with many of the tankless options for waterheaters, but I have seen some variations in my travels and then one minature version, that largely relies on a smaller tank.

Does moving to "tankless" mean that the water runs through a kind of heating element and gets heated up as it flows through? So that takes up a lot less space? I have seen some electric variations of that, but seems like yours is a gas version so there is a kind of heated up flame area?

Yes, there is a gas filled heat chamber the water flows through to be heated. Takes up about as much space as a mini fridge.

Post: #48

(07-19-2016 01:28 AM)weambulance Wrote:  If I can fix something myself, I do. Several things are at work for me here.

- I hate being on someone else's schedule. Having to be around at a specific time for some jackass to show up, or having to bring my car someplace and leave it there, is extremely annoying. I'd rather just fix it on my own time when I can.

- It's almost always cheaper (sometimes much cheaper) for me to buy the tools and materials and do the job--pricing my labor at $0/hr because I don't take off time from work to do stuff unless it's a major emergency--and when I'm done I still have the tools. Win.

- I just plain enjoy working with my hands and solving problems. I take pleasure in being surrounded by things I improved, things that I built or fixed. For example, I fixed a couple sticking doors recently and when I walk by them, sometimes I'll stop to open and close them just to enjoy how much nicer they are now. I put up with those fucking doors for years and my total time spent fixing them was about 90 minutes.

Besides those basic reasons, I have met too many scam artists to easily trust other people to fix my problems. It seems like the whole goddamn world is made up of people who will screw you as much as they think they can get away with and it just pisses me off dealing with that sort of thing.

Over the years I've learned all sorts of skills (logging, welding, carpentry, auto/motorcycle repair and maintenance, gunsmithing, and plenty more) and because I've successfully jumped in and fixed so many different problems I now have a great deal of confidence in my abilities. So that's a nice thing to have too.

This x1000. Learning these skills takes a bit of an investment in time, yet the rewards are immeasurable. With the magic of Youtube now, you can learn pretty much any trade that costs $50/hr or less and get the job to an acceptable level, albeit at likely a slower pace than the pros. Over the course of a life time how much money does this skill you taught yourself on youtube save you?

Like JJG said, I frequently do repairs on my rental unit which aren't my responsibility because I like learning about these things and increasing my intellectual capital, but it also pays dividends in terms of relationships. The landlord understands how I never call them to call out expensive contractors, and guess who gets favorable terms on everything?

If you develop a reputation as a problem solver, then people naturally want to be around you, and your building up priceless "favour capital". Forget the victim mentality that has become fashionable these days, how about a hero mentality?

I always get a kick out of people talking about "opportunity cost" of fixing your own plumbing or whatever. Unless you have infinitely scalable income, alongside infinitely variable hours, the opportunity cost of your time to learn these skills is likely 0. The vast majority of people either have a schedule set by someone else and consequently get paid for their 8 hours, or if self employed, when you do need to pull 20 hour days, you simply don't have the option to reduce it.

Post: #49

Specialisation is what makes economies developed.

Post: #50

(10-05-2018 10:27 PM)jbkunt2 Wrote:  Specialisation is what makes economies developed.

Of course.. there are hobbies too, and there is attempting to learn about things that might be outside of your specialization, right?

You can judge for yourself about how much satisfaction you get from fixing something or learning how to fix something (or if you would rather delegate), but if you are a guy that does not know how to fix anything then that could be problematic, too, no?

Actually, sometimes, I just say fuck it and I let someone else fix something that I could fix because I just have too many other things going, but sometimes I also help others to fix things (frequently this can be useful with getting an "in" with chicks).

I would not conclude that this is a purely economical question, even though you might come to different conclusions than me about how to efficiently and effectively use your time and what you believe brings you personal satisfaction.